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Author Topic: Diablo Mining Company  (Read 87127 times)
Deprived
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September 11, 2012, 07:45:06 PM
 #481

The transaction that most smells of scam is this:

His current listed nav/share as of his last report was about 0.05/share.
Prior to that he issued a large chunk of shares to CPA/nyan at under 0.02 per share.

Obviously prior to that there were a lot less DMC shares - so nav/share would have been higher than the 0.05 it was after that new issue.

What was the rationale for that swap?  Clearly it was terrible for all existing shareholders - as it (and the other 10k or so newly issued shares) totally diluted what little value he'd still got left in the company.  Why did he need 50 BTC so badly as to totally screw over his existing shareholders?  And what blackhole did that 50 BTC vanish into?

And nefario - were you aware that the shares sold to usagi for a grand total of 50 BTC (at around 0.015 per share) outnumber (for voting) all the shares issued to IPO investors (who paid 1 bTC per share).  'original shareholders' at most amount to 25% of outstanding shares after Diablo's recent splurge of giving away/selling cheap/whatever new shares.

I'd see three things Diablo needs to do to get supported in his vote:

1.  Provide a proper asset list for DMC - including non-GLBSE assets.
2.  Account in broad-strokes where all the rest of the money has gone (lost X BTC buying 500 of share Y at 3 times what it was worth then traded it for 1k shares of Z which was even worse etc..).
3.  Explain what swaps/sales of brand new shares occured to quadruple outstanding shares and explain the raionale behind them.

I'm not optimistic of him being able/willing to answer any of those three points (as if he told the truth it would get him a scammer tag after everyone stopped laughing) - but would be nice to be pleasantly surprised.
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September 11, 2012, 07:48:32 PM
 #482


And nefario - were you aware that the shares sold to usagi for a grand total of 50 BTC (at around 0.015 per share) outnumber (for voting) all the shares issued to IPO investors (who paid 1 bTC per share).  'original shareholders' at most amount to 25% of outstanding shares after Diablo's recent splurge of giving away/selling cheap/whatever new shares.

I'd see three things Diablo needs to do to get supported in his vote:

1.  Provide a proper asset list for DMC - including non-GLBSE assets.
2.  Account in broad-strokes where all the rest of the money has gone (lost X BTC buying 500 of share Y at 3 times what it was worth then traded it for 1k shares of Z which was even worse etc..).
3.  Explain what swaps/sales of brand new shares occured to quadruple outstanding shares and explain the raionale behind them.


He needs to do nothing of the sort. He needs to do only one thing: "Hey usagi, go vote for me, will ya, buddy? Thanks, have a beer."
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September 11, 2012, 07:52:48 PM
 #483

And nefario - were you aware that the shares sold to usagi for a grand total of 50 BTC (at around 0.015 per share) outnumber (for voting) all the shares issued to IPO investors (who paid 1 bTC per share).

No I was not, I was aware that usagi had taken a position in DMC but did not know any of the details. I think usagi is very reasonable and other shareholders would do well to talk with him, I'd say he could come to some agreement.

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To get help and support for GLBSE please email support@glbse.com
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September 11, 2012, 07:54:00 PM
 #484

He needs to do nothing of the sort. He needs to do only one thing: "Hey usagi, go vote for me, will ya, buddy? Thanks, have a beer."
Sadly yes - But NYAN seems to have already successfully sold shares.

NYAN.B currently holds 4,273 shares of DMC
http://www.tsukino.ca/cpa/nyan/
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September 11, 2012, 07:55:06 PM
 #485


And nefario - were you aware that the shares sold to usagi for a grand total of 50 BTC (at around 0.015 per share) outnumber (for voting) all the shares issued to IPO investors (who paid 1 bTC per share).  'original shareholders' at most amount to 25% of outstanding shares after Diablo's recent splurge of giving away/selling cheap/whatever new shares.

I'd see three things Diablo needs to do to get supported in his vote:

1.  Provide a proper asset list for DMC - including non-GLBSE assets.
2.  Account in broad-strokes where all the rest of the money has gone (lost X BTC buying 500 of share Y at 3 times what it was worth then traded it for 1k shares of Z which was even worse etc..).
3.  Explain what swaps/sales of brand new shares occured to quadruple outstanding shares and explain the raionale behind them.


He needs to do nothing of the sort. He needs to do only one thing: "Hey usagi, go vote for me, will ya, buddy? Thanks, have a beer."

I guess he also needs to explain what shares he "sold" to himself and at what price.  If his personal account holds a big chunk of shares (worse if he used them to vote on his motion) then scammer tag would seem inevitable - unless he can point to a sharp rise in NAV caused by the influx of him buying the shares at 1.0.  That's something nefario could probably very easily check for - what shares he transferred to himself and at what price.
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September 11, 2012, 07:55:46 PM
 #486

So he has other accounts at glbse where he holds the assets? I think its possible that you, nefario, cant find these accounts. Regarding the motion... i see the possibility that diablo itself is holding enough bonds so that he can change the motion to what he want. I mean when he have different other accounts at glbse he still can vote.

Whatever...

No, this is misinformation being spread by nefario. I do not have other GLBSE accounts, and he has also locked my own private shares I have purchased with my own money thus I cannot vote.

I interpreted this out of the chatlog you did with nefario.

When i read you i must say it reminds you of some communist rulers that claim the citicens of the country that are forced to live in communism are all standing behind the communism. While in fact everyone is clear that the citizens oppose the regime to 90%. You really think the bondholders are happy? Im not a shareholder anymore and im happy because of the stress i dont have to go through but when you read this thread dont you think you judge this whole thing wrong?

Quote from: Deprived
And nefario - were you aware that the shares sold to usagi for a grand total of 50 BTC (at around 0.015 per share) outnumber (for voting) all the shares issued to IPO investors (who paid 1 bTC per share).  'original shareholders' at most amount to 25% of outstanding shares after Diablo's recent splurge of giving away/selling cheap/whatever new shares.

And thats a thing that was explained before to diablo. That selling lower will rip the previous buyers because the shares are devalued.

Now i wonder who usagi is. Hes behaviour doesnt sound moral. On the other hand he took a business opportunity. But knowing that it would rip other bondholders. I wonder what to do here. When it would be against the rules at glbse this transfer maybe could be reversed. But i dont think such rule exists.
I think usagi made a good deal but he knows how diablo is making business. And i doubt that he wouldnt want to have a more... able... CEO. Of course only when he is a unique and other person and not an alter ego of diablo... Smiley

 

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Deprived
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September 11, 2012, 08:06:11 PM
 #487

So he has other accounts at glbse where he holds the assets? I think its possible that you, nefario, cant find these accounts. Regarding the motion... i see the possibility that diablo itself is holding enough bonds so that he can change the motion to what he want. I mean when he have different other accounts at glbse he still can vote.

Whatever...

No, this is misinformation being spread by nefario. I do not have other GLBSE accounts, and he has also locked my own private shares I have purchased with my own money thus I cannot vote.

I interpreted this out of the chatlog you did with nefario.

When i read you i must say it reminds you of some communist rulers that claim the citicens of the country that are forced to live in communism are all standing behind the communism. While in fact everyone is clear that the citizens oppose the regime to 90%. You really think the bondholders are happy? Im not a shareholder anymore and im happy because of the stress i dont have to go through but when you read this thread dont you think you judge this whole thing wrong?

Quote from: Deprived
And nefario - were you aware that the shares sold to usagi for a grand total of 50 BTC (at around 0.015 per share) outnumber (for voting) all the shares issued to IPO investors (who paid 1 bTC per share).  'original shareholders' at most amount to 25% of outstanding shares after Diablo's recent splurge of giving away/selling cheap/whatever new shares.

And thats a thing that was explained before to diablo. That selling lower will rip the previous buyers because the shares are devalued.

Now i wonder who usagi is. Hes behaviour doesnt sound moral. On the other hand he took a business opportunity. But knowing that it would rip other bondholders. I wonder what to do here. When it would be against the rules at glbse this transfer maybe could be reversed. But i dont think such rule exists.
I think usagi made a good deal but he knows how diablo is making business. And i doubt that he wouldnt want to have a more... able... CEO. Of course only when he is a unique and other person and not an alter ego of diablo... Smiley

I have my own views on usagi's competence - but I'm certain she isn't Diablo (she runs a bunch of different businesses on GLBSE).  Her reporting to her shareholders is one of the best around - with diablo's obviously at the other end of the spectrum.

Wuuld guess she just looked at DMC share-price and snapped up the offer - if she'd done any actual investigation she'd have immediately realised she was being offered new shares at a price which Diablo had no right to sell at (OP gives no right to sell shares other than at 1 BTC each).
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September 11, 2012, 08:12:35 PM
 #488

What was the rationale for that swap?  Clearly it was terrible for all existing shareholders - as it (and the other 10k or so newly issued shares) totally diluted what little value he'd still got left in the company.  Why did he need 50 BTC so badly as to totally screw over his existing shareholders?  And what blackhole did that 50 BTC vanish into?

No such swap happened. What I did swap was a 10:1 swap for ASICMINER he held because I believe ASICMINER is worth more than 0.1 in the long run, maybe over 10 BTC including dividends. I have since traded my Obsi.1mhs for 1:1 ABMO and ASICMINER for 2:1 ABMO to become owner of half of ABMO while retaining most of the future ASICMINER profit.

Quote
1.  Provide a proper asset list for DMC - including non-GLBSE assets.
2.  Account in broad-strokes where all the rest of the money has gone (lost X BTC buying 500 of share Y at 3 times what it was worth then traded it for 1k shares of Z which was even worse etc..).
3.  Explain what swaps/sales of brand new shares occured to quadruple outstanding shares and explain the raionale behind them.

I'm not optimistic of him being able/willing to answer any of those three points (as if he told the truth it would get him a scammer tag after everyone stopped laughing) - but would be nice to be pleasantly surprised.

As for GLBSE assets, I have already provided an up to date list. As for non-GLBSE assets, I have already announced the dedi/cloud deal.

About, oh, two months ago many of the fixed mhash bond issuers decided to issue more bonds selling into their bid walls knowing that they would make hundreds or maybe thousands of BTC.... in a pyramid schemey sort of way, they would continue paying dividends out of this new money and buy an ASIC rig to cover future dividends at a fraction of what they sold the bonds for. In the end, they still keep most of the BTC they scooped up out of the bid wall. They plunged fixed mhash bonds from the 0.30s down to the 0.10s.

Although I doubled the number of mhash that backed DMC shares during this time, I realized what they were doing and sold or traded my 1mh bonds away as fast as possible. Instead of a 3000 BTC loss (the majority of what we held was fixed mh bonds from many issuers), it was 1000 BTC loss.

The only person before this post who I have spoken with about this is usagi, and he thinks I am correct. I have not requested scammer tags for any fixed mhash bond issuer because I do not have sufficient proof of this to make it stick.

To make it clear, Obsi was not one of these crooked issuers. He purchased back Obsi.1mhs at IPO price then reissued it at a fraction of that to prevent bondholder losses.

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September 11, 2012, 08:15:44 PM
 #489

Diablo had no right to sell at (OP gives no right to sell shares other than at 1 BTC each).

I swapped shares based on current or future value. 1 BTC for 1 BTC.

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September 11, 2012, 08:21:03 PM
 #490

No such swap happened. What I did swap was a 10:1 swap for ASICMINER he held because I believe ASICMINER is worth more than 0.1 in the long run, maybe over 10 BTC including dividends. I have since traded my Obsi.1mhs for 1:1 ABMO and ASICMINER for 2:1 ABMO to become owner of half of ABMO while retaining most of the future ASICMINER profit.
10 DMC for 1 ASICMINER?  Huh Huh Huh

5500 ASICMINER on IPO were available for 500 BTC (10% bonus)
0,091 BTC per ASICMINER - 0,0091 BTC per DMC share
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September 11, 2012, 08:23:48 PM
 #491

What was the rationale for that swap?  Clearly it was terrible for all existing shareholders - as it (and the other 10k or so newly issued shares) totally diluted what little value he'd still got left in the company.  Why did he need 50 BTC so badly as to totally screw over his existing shareholders?  And what blackhole did that 50 BTC vanish into?

No such swap happened. What I did swap was a 10:1 swap for ASICMINER he held because I believe ASICMINER is worth more than 0.1 in the long run, maybe over 10 BTC including dividends. I have since traded my Obsi.1mhs for 1:1 ABMO and ASICMINER for 2:1 ABMO to become owner of half of ABMO while retaining most of the future ASICMINER profit.


That makes a bit more sense except:

The nav/share of DMC at the time was over 0.05
You made a trade which valued them at under 0.015

there's ALWAYS been strong depth of ASICMINER available at .15 or lower (I've traded those myself) - so why would you issue new shares which were backed by a NAV of 0.5-1.0 (per 10) to trade for something which could be bought for .15 or lower?

Maybe you're right about ASICMINER being woth 10 BTC in the long-run - but that does NOT mean it's currently worth 3-7 times what ANYONE else using GLSBE is willing to pay for it now (and by 'now' I mean 'then' - currently they can be picked up in decent volume for .105).  Did it ever cross your mind that you (having already lsot 90% of your business' value) could just POSSIBLY be wrong and EVRYONE esle right in not paying more than 0.15 per ASICMINER share now?

That's all besides the point that you had no right to issue new shares other than at 1 BTC - let alone sell at a fraction of current nav/share because you 'thought' everyone else in the world had hugely undervalued ASICMINER.
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September 11, 2012, 08:24:42 PM
 #492

But in pursuit of the scammers tag ... why was he doing swaps at all when it is not part of the agreement?
Incompetent, maybe... Enrichment of ghost accounts and friends, looks like he may have tried

I find it very hard to believe someone able to write useful software and articulate English sentences could be so incompetent to lose 95% of shareholder value in 6 months doing honest best effort trading. Aside from PPTs. not a single GLSBE asset did remotely that bad. Given the circumstances, I would assume fraud until proven otherwise. There are many ways Diablo could have profited from these under the table dealings and no objective honest reason I can see why he would have done them.
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September 11, 2012, 08:32:18 PM
 #493

Diablo had no right to sell at (OP gives no right to sell shares other than at 1 BTC each).

I swapped shares based on current or future value. 1 BTC for 1 BTC.

Here's a free clue:

If you see something that's going to be worth a lot more in the future you:

DO: buy it at today's price and make a nice profit if you're right and not lose much if you're wrong.
DON'T: buy it at a massive multiple of  today's price guaranteeing a huge loss if you're wrong and not much profit if you're right.

Taking what I quoted a face value, you're saying that you honestly believe you bought ASICMINER shares at 10 BTC each (as you apparently accept you could only issue your own at 1 BTC) when they were available to buy at 0.15 or less on GLBSE?  And you did it because you 'believe' they 'might' actaully be worth 10 BTC at some point in the far future?  Sounds like a sure-fire recipe for success .... not.
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September 11, 2012, 08:32:33 PM
 #494

What was the rationale for that swap?  Clearly it was terrible for all existing shareholders - as it (and the other 10k or so newly issued shares) totally diluted what little value he'd still got left in the company.  Why did he need 50 BTC so badly as to totally screw over his existing shareholders?  And what blackhole did that 50 BTC vanish into?

No such swap happened. What I did swap was a 10:1 swap for ASICMINER he held because I believe ASICMINER is worth more than 0.1 in the long run, maybe over 10 BTC including dividends. I have since traded my Obsi.1mhs for 1:1 ABMO and ASICMINER for 2:1 ABMO to become owner of half of ABMO while retaining most of the future ASICMINER profit.


That makes a bit more sense except:

The nav/share of DMC at the time was over 0.05
You made a trade which valued them at under 0.015

there's ALWAYS been strong depth of ASICMINER available at .15 or lower (I've traded those myself) - so why would you issue new shares which were backed by a NAV of 0.5-1.0 (per 10) to trade for something which could be bought for .15 or lower?

DMC did not have the money to purchase them, and usagi wanted to swap them at the then current rate. If I am right about their true value, then by the time DMC could afford to buy that many they would have already gone up in value. In other words, instead of trading a few thousand shares of DMC for tens of thousands of BTCs worth of assets and dividends, we would have a tiny fraction of that and no dividends to show for it.

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September 11, 2012, 08:34:52 PM
 #495

But in pursuit of the scammers tag ... why was he doing swaps at all when it is not part of the agreement?
Incompetent, maybe... Enrichment of ghost accounts and friends, looks like he may have tried

I find it very hard to believe someone able to write useful software and articulate English sentences could be so incompetent to lose 95% of shareholder value in 6 months doing honest best effort trading. Aside from PPTs. not a single GLSBE asset did remotely that bad. Given the circumstances, I would assume fraud until proven otherwise. There are many ways Diablo could have profited from these under the table dealings and no objective honest reason I can see why he would have done them.

I have made zero profit from DMC. Even the dividends from my own shares, which I purchased with my own money, have only gone back into the company to buy more shares.

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September 11, 2012, 08:38:16 PM
 #496

DMC did not have the money to purchase them, and usagi wanted to swap them at the then current rate. If I am right about their true value, then by the time DMC could afford to buy that many they would have already gone up in value. In other words, instead of trading a few thousand shares of DMC for tens of thousands of BTCs worth of assets and dividends, we would have a tiny fraction of that and no dividends to show for it.
This is what i call "buying panic".
You could have asked your shareholders prior to this.
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September 11, 2012, 08:38:49 PM
 #497

Still havent heard what the other 10k new shares were swapped for - presumably fixed-share mining bonds (that can only drop in value) that he believed would go from 0.1 to 10.0 BTC in the future (in some parallel universe where difficuly decreases etc).  

Which isn't a dig at ASICMINER - they're a decent share which if everything went perfectly (their protype works, they get to market first, they mine a good chunk before selling any, competitors fail to deliver on time etc etc) COULD go to 10 BTC.  It could equally easily never go above its previosu peak of 0.16 (prototype doesn't work etc).  It's a speculative investment with potential for extremely good returns and a commensurate risk of never making anything significant back - and it's priced accordingly (by everyone other than Diablo).
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September 11, 2012, 08:39:27 PM
 #498

I have made zero profit from DMC. Even the dividends from my own shares, which I purchased with my own money, have only gone back into the company to buy more shares.

"I have made zero profit" is a lie. I know this is a lie because in the same sentence you tell me you received dividends, and purchased more shares.
 Truth: You have made a profit, and you have chosen to reinvest it.
Correct - the liquidity status of your profit is not relevant.
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September 11, 2012, 08:41:12 PM
 #499

I have made zero profit from DMC. Even the dividends from my own shares, which I purchased with my own money, have only gone back into the company to buy more shares.

Then you have made a profit, and you have chosen to reinvest it.

But notice it went back into the company. It did not go into my pocket.

If nefario does decide to go ahead with the asset theft, I lose my money along with everyone else.

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September 11, 2012, 08:46:17 PM
 #500

But notice it went back into the company. It did not go into my pocket.

Where did those purchased shares go?
Did you destroy them to the benefit of all other shareholders? Or do they sit in your personal portfolio.
I am willing to bet they are in your personal portfolio adding no value to DMC.

I do not maintain a personal portfolio. The only shares of anything on GLBSE I own is DMC itself.

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