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Author Topic: Diablo Mining Company  (Read 87109 times)
iCEBREAKER
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May 07, 2013, 10:37:48 PM
 #961

Er, yes, I screwed up the math. Its been a long day on the phone with various people, oh well.

I don't mind rounding up to the next whole AM share for people trading in enough of them, thats fine. You don't have to be insulting about it, however.

So, until I figure out what to do with these BTCMC shares (yochdog said he'll allow me to auction them off, but only to a single party), I'll stop the 60 day clock.

Hooray, now we can be friends again!   Cool

Didn't mean to be (too) insulting, just wanted to make you quickly see your egregious mistake by communicating in as brutally effective a way as possible.

I'm always bombastic, but when somebody messes with my precious BTC the vehement orneriness gets turned up to 11.   Embarrassed

There's a lot of tough love in this thread; I feel you will be a better person for having endured it and come out ahead.   Kiss

An auction *seems* like a good idea, but I want to keep my investment with Yochdog growing, not cash out right as we're maybe almost nearly on the cusp of BFL delivery.

Instead, I suggest spinning off DMC's BTCTC into a pass-through.  That would let you reimburse the shareholders who've already traded out and provide much-needed liquidity, providing the option to sell to anyone who wishes to get out.

*hopes DMC goes to the moon*

PS  nebulus - great job bringing the math and making our case incontrovertibly airtight.  We're all going to profit from the clarity and revelations produced by today's conflict.


The difference between bad and well-developed digital cash will determine whether we have a dictatorship or a real democracy.  David Chaum 1996
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Bitcoin is intentionally designed to be ungovernable and governance-free.  luke-jr 2016
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Blocksize is an intentionally limited resource, like the 21e6 BTC limit.  Changing it degrades the surrounding economics, creating negative incentives.  Jeff Garzik 2013


"I believed @Dashpay instamine was a bug & not a feature but then read: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=421615.msg13017231#msg13017231
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The raison d'être of bitcoin is trustlessness. - Eric Lombrozo 2015
It is an Engineering Requirement that Bitcoin be “Above the Law”  Paul Sztorc 2015
Resiliency, not efficiency, is the paramount goal of decentralized, non-state sanctioned currency -Jon Matonis 2015

Bitcoin is intentionally designed to be ungovernable and governance-free.  luke-jr 2016

Technology tends to move in the direction of making surveillance easier, and the ability of computers to track us doubles every eighteen months. - Phil Zimmerman 2013

The only way to make software secure, reliable, and fast is to make it small. Fight Features. - Andy Tanenbaum 2004

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May 07, 2013, 10:45:34 PM
 #962

Grr... I am not telling you not to follow regulations. I am telling you that the deal you put on the table is shit.

Let's recollect.
1) You took people's money, lost it and blamed nefario for your fuck up (for some reason all other corps are doing fine)
2) You promised to do buyback but you don't want to do that anymore because "fuck it?"
3) You ripped people of their BTCMC equity because you "feel" they are valueless
4) Your trade back is not fair because you force people to accept your rounding policy.
5) You change the rules mid-game whenever you feel like it regardless of what you put down in writing.

Now, you want to extend this sweet deal further by doing this bond thing and paying back in fiat 5 years from now when BTC will be worth way more than that.

Anyway I made you a fair offer in PM.

1) 405.34 to 680.34 BTC were still owed as of the end of April. Using a 1.1 BTC value per ASICMINER share and 246 ASICMINER shares have already been traded (our largest shareholder took choice A), an additional 270.60 BTC has been paid back. At minimum 123 and at maximum 373 shares of ASICMINER clears what was originally invested into DMC. There are still 382 ASICMINER shares, worth 420.20 BTC, left. There was between 1691 and 1966 BTC invested into DMC. That is between a 21% and 25% return on investment.

tl;dr: You made a profit, and you will continue to make a profit with ASICMINER shares.

2) I was participating in a buyback because I was hoping there could be a smooth transition from DMC 1.0 to 2.0, and there cannot be one. nefario gave out a lot of bad advice saying that he got it from his lawyer. I do not believe he had a lawyer, and I believe he acted in bad faith. We collectively pay the penalty for that.

3) I believe BTCMC has been a failure because yochdog relied on BFL units that may never arrived, and if they do they may not turn a profit by the time they arrive. There is no equity, the assets BTCMC holds are worthless (again, if they exist at all, BFL has not sufficiently proved they have the capacity to produce units), and BTCMC is not currently being traded.

4 and 5) This entire thing isn't fair, the whole 9 yards. DMC was supposed to be a company that would show off the strengths of Bitcoin, and thanks to nefario it cannot get there from here. You are getting a better deal out of it, you now can own ASICMINER shares directly and reap all of the dividend instead of half.

Also, this has been a common request to put the deal back on the table now that ASICMINER is not starting a trading platform and relying on the passthrus instead. You have been outvoted by the majority of shareholders on this one.



I think exclude DMC's shares on BTCMC, that  currently there are 10657 shares of DMC on trade.. and it is means 10657/1000. each 10.657 shares equal to 1 shares of ASICMINER, it means if all shares had agree that subscribe 11 for 1 , then total you only send out 968, and another 32 is still in your hand.. I think you did not use the dividend from MAY to buy back any shares.. this amount also another 18.367 bitcoin. to be fair enough ,this policy is just push people to alows you take assets from them...and about choice B , five years maturity time just ridiculos. I hope if you are honesty people. You should spend this dividend first to buy back some shares, until total shares become 10K in total, then give a choice which is 10 shares of DMC for 1 Shares of ASICMINER....it would be mre fair...as I really didn't see any current amount of shares had decrease yet, since last dividend.

I seriously suggest if you look how startups are invested. They frequently do not finish paying off what they owe for a significant period of time and frequently often the time they become profitable.

May has not paid a dividend yet, so no, no shares have been bought back for May yet. That will happen later this month.

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May 07, 2013, 11:14:57 PM
 #963

Grr... I am not telling you not to follow regulations. I am telling you that the deal you put on the table is shit.

Let's recollect.
1) You took people's money, lost it and blamed nefario for your fuck up (for some reason all other corps are doing fine)
2) You promised to do buyback but you don't want to do that anymore because "fuck it?"
3) You ripped people of their BTCMC equity because you "feel" they are valueless
4) Your trade back is not fair because you force people to accept your rounding policy.
5) You change the rules mid-game whenever you feel like it regardless of what you put down in writing.

Now, you want to extend this sweet deal further by doing this bond thing and paying back in fiat 5 years from now when BTC will be worth way more than that.

Anyway I made you a fair offer in PM.

1) 405.34 to 680.34 BTC were still owed as of the end of April. Using a 1.1 BTC value per ASICMINER share and 246 ASICMINER shares have already been traded (our largest shareholder took choice A), an additional 270.60 BTC has been paid back. At minimum 123 and at maximum 373 shares of ASICMINER clears what was originally invested into DMC. There are still 382 ASICMINER shares, worth 420.20 BTC, left. There was between 1691 and 1966 BTC invested into DMC. That is between a 21% and 25% return on investment.

tl;dr: You made a profit, and you will continue to make a profit with ASICMINER shares.

2) I was participating in a buyback because I was hoping there could be a smooth transition from DMC 1.0 to 2.0, and there cannot be one. nefario gave out a lot of bad advice saying that he got it from his lawyer. I do not believe he had a lawyer, and I believe he acted in bad faith. We collectively pay the penalty for that.

3) I believe BTCMC has been a failure because yochdog relied on BFL units that may never arrived, and if they do they may not turn a profit by the time they arrive. There is no equity, the assets BTCMC holds are worthless (again, if they exist at all, BFL has not sufficiently proved they have the capacity to produce units), and BTCMC is not currently being traded.

4 and 5) This entire thing isn't fair, the whole 9 yards. DMC was supposed to be a company that would show off the strengths of Bitcoin, and thanks to nefario it cannot get there from here. You are getting a better deal out of it, you now can own ASICMINER shares directly and reap all of the dividend instead of half.

Also, this has been a common request to put the deal back on the table now that ASICMINER is not starting a trading platform and relying on the passthrus instead. You have been outvoted by the majority of shareholders on this one.



I think exclude DMC's shares on BTCMC, that  currently there are 10657 shares of DMC on trade.. and it is means 10657/1000. each 10.657 shares equal to 1 shares of ASICMINER, it means if all shares had agree that subscribe 11 for 1 , then total you only send out 968, and another 32 is still in your hand.. I think you did not use the dividend from MAY to buy back any shares.. this amount also another 18.367 bitcoin. to be fair enough ,this policy is just push people to alows you take assets from them...and about choice B , five years maturity time just ridiculos. I hope if you are honesty people. You should spend this dividend first to buy back some shares, until total shares become 10K in total, then give a choice which is 10 shares of DMC for 1 Shares of ASICMINER....it would be mre fair...as I really didn't see any current amount of shares had decrease yet, since last dividend.

I seriously suggest if you look how startups are invested. They frequently do not finish paying off what they owe for a significant period of time and frequently often the time they become profitable.

May has not paid a dividend yet, so no, no shares have been bought back for May yet. That will happen later this month.

Sorry my mistake,I mean the dividend from last april...I just did a calculation if I accpet either two options, I will lose money (for Choice A and for Choice B I take imprevision risk (sorry I don't like this risk)...I think I will still waiting for the answer from BTCMC...I hope they will finaly start up.... If I made final decision before 6/30 I still can convert my DMC shares into AS, is that right?
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May 08, 2013, 12:08:14 AM
 #964

Grr... I am not telling you not to follow regulations. I am telling you that the deal you put on the table is shit.

Let's recollect.
1) You took people's money, lost it and blamed nefario for your fuck up (for some reason all other corps are doing fine)
2) You promised to do buyback but you don't want to do that anymore because "fuck it?"
3) You ripped people of their BTCMC equity because you "feel" they are valueless
4) Your trade back is not fair because you force people to accept your rounding policy.
5) You change the rules mid-game whenever you feel like it regardless of what you put down in writing.

Now, you want to extend this sweet deal further by doing this bond thing and paying back in fiat 5 years from now when BTC will be worth way more than that.

Anyway I made you a fair offer in PM.

1) 405.34 to 680.34 BTC were still owed as of the end of April. Using a 1.1 BTC value per ASICMINER share and 246 ASICMINER shares have already been traded (our largest shareholder took choice A), an additional 270.60 BTC has been paid back. At minimum 123 and at maximum 373 shares of ASICMINER clears what was originally invested into DMC. There are still 382 ASICMINER shares, worth 420.20 BTC, left. There was between 1691 and 1966 BTC invested into DMC. That is between a 21% and 25% return on investment.

tl;dr: You made a profit, and you will continue to make a profit with ASICMINER shares.

2) I was participating in a buyback because I was hoping there could be a smooth transition from DMC 1.0 to 2.0, and there cannot be one. nefario gave out a lot of bad advice saying that he got it from his lawyer. I do not believe he had a lawyer, and I believe he acted in bad faith. We collectively pay the penalty for that.

3) I believe BTCMC has been a failure because yochdog relied on BFL units that may never arrived, and if they do they may not turn a profit by the time they arrive. There is no equity, the assets BTCMC holds are worthless (again, if they exist at all, BFL has not sufficiently proved they have the capacity to produce units), and BTCMC is not currently being traded.

4 and 5) This entire thing isn't fair, the whole 9 yards. DMC was supposed to be a company that would show off the strengths of Bitcoin, and thanks to nefario it cannot get there from here. You are getting a better deal out of it, you now can own ASICMINER shares directly and reap all of the dividend instead of half.

Also, this has been a common request to put the deal back on the table now that ASICMINER is not starting a trading platform and relying on the passthrus instead. You have been outvoted by the majority of shareholders on this one.



I think exclude DMC's shares on BTCMC, that  currently there are 10657 shares of DMC on trade.. and it is means 10657/1000. each 10.657 shares equal to 1 shares of ASICMINER, it means if all shares had agree that subscribe 11 for 1 , then total you only send out 968, and another 32 is still in your hand.. I think you did not use the dividend from MAY to buy back any shares.. this amount also another 18.367 bitcoin. to be fair enough ,this policy is just push people to alows you take assets from them...and about choice B , five years maturity time just ridiculos. I hope if you are honesty people. You should spend this dividend first to buy back some shares, until total shares become 10K in total, then give a choice which is 10 shares of DMC for 1 Shares of ASICMINER....it would be mre fair...as I really didn't see any current amount of shares had decrease yet, since last dividend.

I seriously suggest if you look how startups are invested. They frequently do not finish paying off what they owe for a significant period of time and frequently often the time they become profitable.

May has not paid a dividend yet, so no, no shares have been bought back for May yet. That will happen later this month.

Sorry my mistake,I mean the dividend from last april...I just did a calculation if I accpet either two options, I will lose money (for Choice A and for Choice B I take imprevision risk (sorry I don't like this risk)...I think I will still waiting for the answer from BTCMC...I hope they will finaly start up.... If I made final decision before 6/30 I still can convert my DMC shares into AS, is that right?

You mean AM, and yes, I've stopped the clock.

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May 08, 2013, 12:14:26 AM
 #965

Just did the transfer. Please CC me to PM to friedcat. Thanks and good luck.

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May 08, 2013, 03:40:41 AM
 #966

There are two share holders out of the 54 that own more than 1000 shares each, and combined you two own 49% of DMC. Please introduce yourselves to the other shareholders if you don't mind. Also, while I'm giving out statistics, only 12 of you have over 100 shares.

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May 08, 2013, 01:39:58 PM
 #967

To be fair, shares were valued at ~1 BTC each, so investing THAT much would have been quite a stretch and it seems only few did that.
Looking forward to you auctioning off the BTCMC and other shares.

Oh, and blaming nefario for everything that went wrong is also not ok in my opinion. Yes he made some mistakes but I bet you could also have done more as you have been criticised already when GLBSE was fully operational. Also try to view it from a share holder perspective - suddenly you are forced (now on hold) to either trade in at bad rates into ASICMINER (how many ASICMINER shares did you require for a SINGLE DMC share back then?) or trust you for half a decade or more in USD, not BTC.

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May 08, 2013, 01:57:14 PM
 #968

Oh, and blaming nefario for everything that went wrong is also not ok in my opinion. Yes he made some mistakes but [...]

nefario was the one that said his lawyer said it was okay for a company to issue shares before it was legally registered. Its neither legal, nor is issuing shares after registering your company legal without going through SEC hoops. So, yes, nefario doomed DMC from the start.

Now, I could be like everyone else and just default and walk away since none of you have a legal claim you can use in court, but I'm not that kind of guy. However, I don't want DMC to continue on and on and effect DMC 2.0. The sooner all shares are settled the better.

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May 08, 2013, 03:47:06 PM
 #969

Are you based in the UK? Nefario is/was...

Edit: Also what did YOUR lawyer say?

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May 08, 2013, 04:18:06 PM
 #970

Are you based in the UK? Nefario is/was...

No, but he said his lawyer was familiar with SEC law as well.

Quote
Edit: Also what did YOUR lawyer say?

Despite what you may think, not everybody in the US can afford to a lawyer. Its going to cost upwards of $100k to do all the legal work to open DMC 2.0 and be able to accept investors.

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May 08, 2013, 08:05:29 PM
 #971

Update: I am going to pay out the 8.35823326 BTC we got for 754 shares of ASICMINER out in full to 7174 shares of DMC, including to nebulus and DeLorean because I didn't get their transfers done in time. After I transfer AM shares to those two, we'll be down to 681 AM.

Everyone else, don't send me DMC shares until I process the dividend.

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May 08, 2013, 09:41:51 PM
 #972

A total of 7.64874425 BTC has been issued in dividends to shareholders early for 7174 shares (figure does not included nebulus' and DeLorean's share of that, but they have been paid too), and I have asked friedcat to do the AM transfer for those two.

Everyone else can resume sending me DMC shares in exchange for AM shares.

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May 08, 2013, 10:33:05 PM
 #973

BTCMC is isn't trading, but a value of BTC0.5915 per share can be inferred from the premium DMC trades for over 1/11 AM:
0.1745 * 11 = 1.9195
1.9195 - 1.328 = BTC0.5915 implied BTCMC value.

I have 110 shares, so that's BTC6.5065 worth of BTCMC.  At present, that's $741.55!

If I trade in my DMC shares, when and how will I be compensated for the value of their BTCMC component?


The difference between bad and well-developed digital cash will determine whether we have a dictatorship or a real democracy.  David Chaum 1996
Fungibility provides privacy as a side effect.  Adam Back 2014
"Monero" : { Private - Auditable - 100% Fungible - Flexible Blocksize - Wild & Free® - Intro - Wallets - Podcats - Roadmap - Dice - Blackjack - Github - Android }


Bitcoin is intentionally designed to be ungovernable and governance-free.  luke-jr 2016
Blocks must necessarily be full for the Bitcoin network to be able to pay for its own security.  davout 2015
Blocksize is an intentionally limited resource, like the 21e6 BTC limit.  Changing it degrades the surrounding economics, creating negative incentives.  Jeff Garzik 2013


"I believed @Dashpay instamine was a bug & not a feature but then read: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=421615.msg13017231#msg13017231
I'm not against people making money, but can't support questionable origins."
https://twitter.com/Tone_LLT/status/717822927908024320


The raison d'être of bitcoin is trustlessness. - Eric Lombrozo 2015
It is an Engineering Requirement that Bitcoin be “Above the Law”  Paul Sztorc 2015
Resiliency, not efficiency, is the paramount goal of decentralized, non-state sanctioned currency -Jon Matonis 2015

Bitcoin is intentionally designed to be ungovernable and governance-free.  luke-jr 2016

Technology tends to move in the direction of making surveillance easier, and the ability of computers to track us doubles every eighteen months. - Phil Zimmerman 2013

The only way to make software secure, reliable, and fast is to make it small. Fight Features. - Andy Tanenbaum 2004

"Hard forks cannot be co
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May 08, 2013, 10:46:51 PM
 #974

Got the payment, thanks!

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May 08, 2013, 10:58:06 PM
 #975

BTCMC is isn't trading, but a value of BTC0.5915 per share can be inferred from the premium DMC trades for over 1/11 AM:
0.1745 * 11 = 1.9195
1.9195 - 1.328 = BTC0.5915 implied BTCMC value.

I have 110 shares, so that's BTC6.5065 worth of BTCMC.  At present, that's $741.55!

If I trade in my DMC shares, when and how will I be compensated for the value of their BTCMC component?



I think you better hold your DMC shares, even try to get more ...as long as more people transfer their shares to AM , this mean less people share the BTCMC with you....there are still a chance BTCMC will start pay dividend....if they did start pay dividend...not only DMC's price will go up..and less people share the benefit with you ...what you think?   as ASICMINER price is increase therefore the net value of DMC also increase....
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May 08, 2013, 10:59:02 PM
 #976

A total of 7.64874425 BTC has been issued in dividends to shareholders early (figure does not included nebulus' and DeLorean's share of that, but they have been paid too), and I have asked friedcat to do the AM transfer for those two.

Everyone else can resume sending me DMC shares in exchange for AM shares.

Will you still take half of the dividend from AM to processing buy back ?
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May 09, 2013, 12:18:47 AM
 #977

@ Diablo ..  I haven't thoroughly evaluated the info you have posted in the past few days,  but skimming it my initial reaction gives me some concern.


I don't agree with you taking the stance that BFL (thus BTCMC) is irrelevant.  (as much as that would infinitely please me being an AM shareholder..)

As well (and this ties in with our PM convo a few days ago too),  there isn't anywhere near enough information available to make a decision on whether DMC 2.0 is worth anything at all (or even what the plan really is)  and if we use DMC 1.0 as the benchmark, well..  that didn't really turn out, at least not according to the original plan anyways.  The ballzy move on the asicminer trades in the early days was much criticized but the results (somewhat, maybe?)  justified it.... but ya know,  AM was never a sure thing even though it may seem like it was / is nowadays,  so the action you chose to take is also concerning regarding future ventures..

For option 1, I personally assign some value to BTCMC, (and to a lesser extent possibly even BTC-Minging) and would be looking for my respective holdings in it as well.. 

Option 2 - I also don't completely negate the possibility of wanting to roll forward on a DMC 2.0 plan,  but I would have to understand exactly what that is..  in absence of that info,  I would be forced to go with option 1  with the caveat that something is to be done about these BTCMC shares that is agreeable by all shareholders.   

teek

   

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May 09, 2013, 12:49:28 AM
 #978

BTCMC is isn't trading, but a value of BTC0.5915 per share can be inferred from the premium DMC trades for over 1/11 AM:
0.1745 * 11 = 1.9195
1.9195 - 1.328 = BTC0.5915 implied BTCMC value.

I have 110 shares, so that's BTC6.5065 worth of BTCMC.  At present, that's $741.55!

If I trade in my DMC shares, when and how will I be compensated for the value of their BTCMC component?



If you're that worried about BTCMC value, then don't trade in. I'm not forcing anyone to do it right now until I can figure out a good way of dealing with this that everyone is happy with.

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May 09, 2013, 01:52:39 AM
 #979

@ Diablo ..  I haven't thoroughly evaluated the info you have posted in the past few days,  but skimming it my initial reaction gives me some concern.


I don't agree with you taking the stance that BFL (thus BTCMC) is irrelevant.  (as much as that would infinitely please me being an AM shareholder..)

As well (and this ties in with our PM convo a few days ago too),  there isn't anywhere near enough information available to make a decision on whether DMC 2.0 is worth anything at all (or even what the plan really is)  and if we use DMC 1.0 as the benchmark, well..  that didn't really turn out, at least not according to the original plan anyways.  The ballzy move on the asicminer trades in the early days was much criticized but the results (somewhat, maybe?)  justified it.... but ya know,  AM was never a sure thing even though it may seem like it was / is nowadays,  so the action you chose to take is also concerning regarding future ventures..

For option 1, I personally assign some value to BTCMC, (and to a lesser extent possibly even BTC-Minging) and would be looking for my respective holdings in it as well.. 

Option 2 - I also don't completely negate the possibility of wanting to roll forward on a DMC 2.0 plan,  but I would have to understand exactly what that is..  in absence of that info,  I would be forced to go with option 1  with the caveat that something is to be done about these BTCMC shares that is agreeable by all shareholders.   

teek

   

I have not posted the DMC 2.0 plan yet. Not until the plan is finished, fully vetted by people in the industry that I trust, and the company is registered. I will tell you that the plan includes not loaning the money to outside entities, not even near-sure bets like AM, I just can't take the risk, the Bitcoin community is still too risky to invest in (and yes, before you ask, my opinion has shifted greatly on this after what happened).

I agree something needs to be done about BTCMC, but nothing can be done until BTCMC pays a dividend so I can figure out what the shares are actually worth to DMC. Unless, however, someone right now offers 0.50 BTC a share for the entire lot; I don't think the shareholders that think the shares are worth something would go for any less.

However, if you trade your DMC shares for AM shares, you have no right to the BTCMC shares.

teek
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May 09, 2013, 02:00:21 AM
 #980

Just to clarify,  there is some type of restriction imposed by yochdog on share transfers of BTCMC ?   Is there some reason why these holdings cannot be distributed proportionately along with the AM shares?  


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