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Author Topic: Diablo Mining Company  (Read 87340 times)
MoinCoin
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September 14, 2012, 10:06:59 PM
 #601

That is Apple's solar farm powered data center facility. They have one, so why can't Bitcoin?
Bitcoin can, but the main purpose for building a solar-farm is to have good press, not to have a good ROI.

The problem is you don't even seem to understand the term "cost".
You cannot eliminate operating costs, with solar power, you can only substitute them with other costs.
(power with mainatanence-costs, capital-costs (interest or opportunity costs), insurance etc.)

I'd love to see an exemplary calculation, where you would convince me of the opposite.

And please stay on topic.
Maybe in the far future you will be able to do this.
But this does not solve the current issues.
I'm starting to get the feeling, that you don't want to solve them, but rather grieve in self-pity.
It doesn't matter who did what wrong. It's about moving forward and to shed some light in the dark.

So why don't you just agree to an audit of the CSV?

Kind regards
MoinCoin
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September 14, 2012, 10:10:39 PM
 #602

Anyone see this?

http://gigaom.com/cleantech/behold-apples-massive-solar-farm-from-the-sky-photos/

That is Apple's solar farm powered data center facility. They have one, so why can't Bitcoin?

If I recall correctly, the GREEN bitcoin mining company is doing this, using solar energy to mine bitcoins.

CryptoNote needs you! Join the elite merged mining forces right now here in Fantomcoin topic: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=598823.0
MoinCoin
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September 14, 2012, 10:15:23 PM
 #603

Anyone see this?

http://gigaom.com/cleantech/behold-apples-massive-solar-farm-from-the-sky-photos/

That is Apple's solar farm powered data center facility. They have one, so why can't Bitcoin?

If I recall correctly, the GREEN bitcoin mining company is doing this, using solar energy to mine bitcoins.
Quote
Current Goals

To Reach 2.0GH/s in 2 months (7/8/2012)

To Become 25% Green Powered by end of 2012

To Become 50% Green Powered by end of 2013

To Become 75% Green Powered by end of 2014

To Become 100% Green Powered by end of 2015

Quite some timeframe for Bitcoin.
But nontheless - it's no economical, it's an ethical or political decision.
Puppet
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September 14, 2012, 10:30:03 PM
 #604

Anyone see this?

http://gigaom.com/cleantech/behold-apples-massive-solar-farm-from-the-sky-photos/

That is Apple's solar farm powered data center facility. They have one, so why can't Bitcoin?

You mean, why cant you.
Its probably related to the fact apple has quite happy shareholders, over $100,000,000 in the bank as a result of decades of clever management, while you managed to lose 95% of shareholder value in just a few months while achieving absolutely NOTHING.
I honestly think you are about the only "CEO" who could possibly bankrupt Apple in the course of a year.
DiabloD3
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September 14, 2012, 10:46:26 PM
 #605

That is Apple's solar farm powered data center facility. They have one, so why can't Bitcoin?
The problem is you don't even seem to understand the term "costs".
You cannot eliminate operating costs, with solar power, you can only substitute them with other costs.
(power with mainatanence-costs, capital-costs (interest or opportunity costs), insurance etc.)

Thats not true. Even here in Maine, (at today's power prices) solar panels will last around 30 years and hit ROI in 15 through resale at retail electricity prices alone; commercial and industrial power prices are still higher than retail, so if we consume most of are electricity that way the ROI is higher.

Now, see where I said "at today's power prices"? Prices will only go up. We can pay an upfront price now in a large lump sum, or we can pay several times that over the next 30 years. You call it substitution of cost, I call it massive reduction in cost. The largest cost of a data center is power, which I've dealt with in two ways.

The first is obviously the green power, the second is the fact that we are so north and that are summers are so mild that we won't need 24/7/365 HVAC. I've done preliminary cost analysis on a water chilled in row cooling system using a larger than needed water tower for external heat exchange plus large scale air economization, we'll use a lot less power than, say, building it in MD/DC/VA or SoCA/AZ/NM/TX like a lot of DCs are being built, even if you account for better solar coverage than Maine.

MoinCoin
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September 14, 2012, 11:03:08 PM
 #606

Now, see where I said "at today's power prices"? Prices will only go up. We can pay an upfront price now in a large lump sum, or we can pay several times that over the next 30 years. You call it substitution of cost, I call it massive reduction in cost. The largest cost of a data center is power, which I've dealt with in two ways.
Why should the prices go up if even you can provide power for less.
Wouldn't the market regulate itself with new suppliers?

And do us a favour and try to make a forecast.
I'd like to see some numbers, eg. the internal rate of return, as this makes it quite easy to compare investments.
Without numbers those words are like meaningless words from a megalomaniac.

And did you note that you are calculating with 15 years, where Bitcoin/USD price should not jump?
Great idea!

I wold not object to solar panels as a political project, but that should not be part of DMC, and even than it would only work if the calculations are founded on solid data.

And by the way - Congratulations on dancing around the current issues.
DiabloD3
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September 14, 2012, 11:03:14 PM
 #607

Even in the op, the closest you could have come was buying a small building and getting solar covering the roof
You potentially would have been able to run a rack or two for mining, then rent space.

There would be at least as much space for two or three dozen racks, and we'd be aiming at high density computing.

Not all racks are created equal, many data centers are equipped to handle only 2 to 4 kw of gear in a rack, we'd be at 25-30kw of gear per rack. People are paying $20-30k/mo per rack space for high density computing, were as a sparsely populated rack 2kw would only go for $1k/mo, sometimes less if you find a really good deal.

Now, if I can get a suitable building cheaply and can be renovated for our needs? That could be a lot more than just three dozen racks.

DiabloD3
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September 14, 2012, 11:05:32 PM
 #608

(...) went against the original contract (...)

Where?

DiabloD3
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September 14, 2012, 11:10:24 PM
 #609

Now, see where I said "at today's power prices"? Prices will only go up. We can pay an upfront price now in a large lump sum, or we can pay several times that over the next 30 years. You call it substitution of cost, I call it massive reduction in cost. The largest cost of a data center is power, which I've dealt with in two ways.
Why should the prices go up if even you can provide power for less.
Wouldn't the market regulate itself with new suppliers?

Ask your parents what they used to pay for electricity before you were born. It was much lower than what they pay now.

The prices are only going to continue going up, and there is no indication this will stop. The market is already heavily regulated and power companies are operated as state sponsored legal monopolies.

Quote
I wold not object to solar panels as a political project, but that should not be part of DMC, and even than it would only work if the calculations are founded on solid data.

Its been part of the plan since the beginning. If you don't like it, then don't invest.

MoinCoin
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September 14, 2012, 11:21:47 PM
 #610

Now, see where I said "at today's power prices"? Prices will only go up. We can pay an upfront price now in a large lump sum, or we can pay several times that over the next 30 years. You call it substitution of cost, I call it massive reduction in cost. The largest cost of a data center is power, which I've dealt with in two ways.
Why should the prices go up if even you can provide power for less.
Wouldn't the market regulate itself with new suppliers?
Ask your parents what they used to pay for electricity before you were born. It was much lower than what they pay now.
The prices are only going to continue going up, and there is no indication this will stop. The market is already heavily regulated and power companies are operated as state sponsored legal monopolies.
That was a rhetorical question.
Rise of income and inflation outweigh the price increase - so in fact it has become cheaper.
On a sidenote: There is currently a funny effect in Germany with green powered electricity - Consumers have to pay more, because production costs decreased faster than expected by the government!
Why? Price for producers is garantueed by law and consumers have to pay the difference. (Industrial customers mostly benefit from the price drop)

Panel prices will continue to drop per kWP.
Wind powered energy is still technologically advancing, also.
Finally, don't confuse USD inflation with bitcoin inflation.

I wold not object to solar panels as a political project, but that should not be part of DMC, and even than it would only work if the calculations are founded on solid data.

Its been part of the plan since the beginning. If you don't like it, then don't invest.
As you announced it as an economical decision, it should be held by that standard.
If you are able to present calculations, that show a positive outlook, I wouldn't object.
DiabloD3
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September 15, 2012, 12:59:06 AM
 #611

Now, see where I said "at today's power prices"? Prices will only go up. We can pay an upfront price now in a large lump sum, or we can pay several times that over the next 30 years. You call it substitution of cost, I call it massive reduction in cost. The largest cost of a data center is power, which I've dealt with in two ways.
Why should the prices go up if even you can provide power for less.
Wouldn't the market regulate itself with new suppliers?
Ask your parents what they used to pay for electricity before you were born. It was much lower than what they pay now.
The prices are only going to continue going up, and there is no indication this will stop. The market is already heavily regulated and power companies are operated as state sponsored legal monopolies.
That was a rhetorical question.
Income and inflation outweigh the price increase - so in fact it has become cheaper.
Panel prices will also drop.
Wind powered energy is still technologically advancing, also.
Don't confuse USD inflation with bitcoin inflation.

I wold not object to solar panels as a political project, but that should not be part of DMC, and even than it would only work if the calculations are founded on solid data.

Its been part of the plan since the beginning. If you don't like it, then don't invest.
If you are able to do the calculations, I won't object.


Here in Maine, since I moved here 23 years ago, power prices per kwh have doubled while my kwh monthly usage has decreased. My entire bill is not kwh, so my overall bill hasn't doubled; but compared to USD inflation, USD has not inflated that quickly (only 85%).

I've done some of the calculations for solar earlier in the thread and in the op: it costs about $700 per 1kw of panel installed which produces 1200kwh actual per year in Maine. According to the EPA's Electric Power Monthly report*, commercial electricity is 10.76 cents a kwh, industrial 7.49 cents a kwh; these are retail prices include distribution/transmission overhead (for example, I pay 0.071 per kwh from the supplier, 0.068 per kwh for the distribution, 0.023 for the transmission, for a total of 0.162 cents per kwh for residential, which is actually a tad higher than the EPA's report). Maine pays net energy billing for facilities 660kw or less with a rolling 12 month window, plus I can resell power back to them at wholesale rates (a little less than than the 0.071 cents/kwh from the supplier in my above example) for anything over that.

Now, that cap is 660kw not 660kwh. As in, I could install 660kw panels of panels and generate 792Mwh a year of power and pay effectively $0** to Bangor Hydro, our local power company, for the first 792Mwh of usage of the year.

792Mwh would cost me (assuming a commercial rate instead of industrial, I'm not sure what the minimum is to get into industrial) $85,219. 660kw of panels would cost $462,000 to install, or only a little under 6 years at current rates. These panels will last about 30 years give or take, so at today's rates that is $2.556 million dollars of electricity for an up front cost of $462,000, or about 5.5 times cheaper power. The same numbers for industrial are $1.779 million, or 3.8x cheaper.

To further run the numbers, 792Mwh a year, 22kw per rack maximum usage including cooling, that is 4 racks fully loaded at 24/7 max power usage, or about 8-16 loaded more conventionally.

Edit: $700 per 1kw does not include single/multi-axis tracking systems. Here in Maine they tend to not be worth it, although because panels are getting smaller/energy densities are getting higher, they may be worth it in the future.

* http://www.eia.gov/electricity/monthly/epm_table_grapher.cfm?t=epmt_5_06_a
** not sure how the taxes work here, but thats around 4% of the bill

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September 15, 2012, 01:28:31 AM
 #612

Nefario just got done explaining on IRC that the audit is already in process. [\\\] is imsaguy.

[08:43:47] <nefario> I've hired an outside party with qualifications
[08:44:01] <nefario> they will work out a profit and loss
[08:44:14] <nefario> then I'm getting someone else to write a report (another auditor)
[08:44:17] <nefario> and finally
[08:44:33] <nefario> a third person to verify the profit and loss, and report are correct
[08:46:36] <Diablo-D3> I dont trust you to chose auditors.
[08:47:07] <nefario> I've only gotten one so far
[08:47:09] <mircea_popescu> why not ? he could "hire" usagi, an anonymous "3rd party" with "qualifications". he knows ito integral calculus!
[08:47:12] <[\\\]> <nefario> I've hired an outside party with qualifications << whom?
[08:47:18] <[\\\]> the auditor should be well known
[08:47:24] <[\\\]> in fact, its announced BEFORE the audit
[08:47:26] <Diablo-D3> I agree with imsaguy
[08:47:29] <[\\\]> at least on a real stock exchange
[08:47:35] <Diablo-D3> this whole thing is extremely shady
[08:47:49] <Diablo-D3> not only that, the shareholders should have to agree to the chosen auditors as well
[08:47:54] <[\\\]> aye
[08:48:03] <[\\\]> I think Diablo-D3 is a douchebag
[08:48:04] <[\\\]> don't get me wrong
[08:48:07] <[\\\]> but this stinks of shady

(nefario goes on to talk about the london Bitcoin conference)

[08:48:43] <[\\\]> notice how my questions go unanswered?
[08:48:47] <[\\\]> Who is doing the audit?

(nefario continues to ignore the question)

[08:50:02] <[\\\]> Who is doing the audit of DMC?
[08:51:06] <nefario> [\\\]: I'll announce it later

So, shareholders. Not only do you not get to vote on who the auditors will be, nefario will not even say who they are. The report may not even be released until AFTER the vote. He also refused to answer the question if smickles would be allowed to be one of the auditors (one of the few people I trust to fairly look at corporate financials).

What gives, nefario? You claim I haven't been transparent enough, and you turn around and do worse?

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September 15, 2012, 01:40:21 AM
 #613


792Mwh would cost me (assuming a commercial rate instead of industrial, I'm not sure what the minimum is to get into industrial) $85,219. 660kw of panels would cost $462,000 to install, or only a little under 6 years at current rates.


That's assuming no maintenance costs.

If the investment is in BTC then that's also assuming the BTC/US$ rate remains unchanged.  If, for example, BTC doubles in value aginst the $ in those 6 years then after the 6 years (assuming zero maintenance costs) you'd still only have made back half your initial investment in BTC.

Where what you propose really starts to fall down is if you compare it to any other investments on here - or even directly to mining.  Compare s[pending that money on power-generation to spending it on more mining power (and just buying the power) and using part of mined income to expand.  You'll find the mining makes way more profit (or less loss) whether BTC gos up. down or stays unchanged vs the us$ (only possible exception is if it devalues far less quickly AND bitcoin crashes in price).  All the solar-power does is suck away loads of the cash for a possible tiny return a long way down the line.

I don't dispute your claim that long-term investing US$ in solar power could generate some profit.  But we're talking baout investing BTC not US$ - and you need to compare it to other investment available.  Just because something could make a profit doesn't mean it's a good idea to it - if there's other options equally (or more) accessible that could make more.  Unless, of course, the decision to do it is entirely politically rather than economically driven.

Without ongoing maintenance costs your estimate of 6 years is totally unrealistic. For one thing you'd need insurance - or if someone vandalises it are the shareholders just supposed to kiss goodbye to their investment?
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September 15, 2012, 02:53:21 AM
 #614


792Mwh would cost me (assuming a commercial rate instead of industrial, I'm not sure what the minimum is to get into industrial) $85,219. 660kw of panels would cost $462,000 to install, or only a little under 6 years at current rates.


That's assuming no maintenance costs.

If the investment is in BTC then that's also assuming the BTC/US$ rate remains unchanged.  If, for example, BTC doubles in value aginst the $ in those 6 years then after the 6 years (assuming zero maintenance costs) you'd still only have made back half your initial investment in BTC.

Where what you propose really starts to fall down is if you compare it to any other investments on here - or even directly to mining.  Compare s[pending that money on power-generation to spending it on more mining power (and just buying the power) and using part of mined income to expand.  You'll find the mining makes way more profit (or less loss) whether BTC gos up. down or stays unchanged vs the us$ (only possible exception is if it devalues far less quickly AND bitcoin crashes in price).  All the solar-power does is suck away loads of the cash for a possible tiny return a long way down the line.

I don't dispute your claim that long-term investing US$ in solar power could generate some profit.  But we're talking baout investing BTC not US$ - and you need to compare it to other investment available.  Just because something could make a profit doesn't mean it's a good idea to it - if there's other options equally (or more) accessible that could make more.  Unless, of course, the decision to do it is entirely politically rather than economically driven.

Without ongoing maintenance costs your estimate of 6 years is totally unrealistic. For one thing you'd need insurance - or if someone vandalises it are the shareholders just supposed to kiss goodbye to their investment?

Yes, that does not include maintenance costs.

Dragging BTC/USD exchange prices into this is a red herring. It doesn't matter what the price of BTC is because the power company charges us in USD. Power usage is the largest operating cost of a data center, more so than anything else by a huge margin, and this operating cost can only be measured in USD.

Solar power, as I demonstrated, can reduce this operational cost by up to 1/5th. Let me repeat what I just said: our largest operational cost, a smart investment early on can reduce this to 1/5th. This is an economically driven decision, and it is not a tiny return on investment whatsoever.

Insurance cannot be applied solely to the solar panels, such insurance would apply to everything, and would be a separate operational cost, thus obviously not included here in these calculations.

Additionally, small scale solar panel installations are surprisingly low maintenance if they don't have sun trackers (no moving parts). Maintenance will obviously only cost a fraction of what we paid for the panels no matter how difficult the maintenance is.

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September 15, 2012, 03:03:53 AM
 #615

So, shareholders. Not only do you not get to vote on who the auditors will be, nefario will not even say who they are. The report may not even be released until AFTER the vote. He also refused to answer the question if smickles would be allowed to be one of the auditors (one of the few people I trust to fairly look at corporate financials).

What gives, nefario? You claim I haven't been transparent enough, and you turn around and do worse?

I'd agree with you this extent:

If you aren't able to get a .csv file of your transactions yourself (due to being locked out of your account), nefario should generate one and send it to you.  Then you can get whoever you want to examine it and compare it to whatever nefario's auditor(s) produce.

If you're genuinely concerned about transparency then all you have to do is authorise nefario to release the .csv to all.  Your strawman about protecting the identity of others you traded with has already been blown away.
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September 15, 2012, 03:15:37 AM
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Yes, that does not include maintenance costs.

Dragging BTC/USD exchange prices into this is a red herring. It doesn't matter what the price of BTC is because the power company charges us in USD. Power usage is the largest operating cost of a data center, more so than anything else by a huge margin, and this operating cost can only be measured in USD.

Solar power, as I demonstrated, can reduce this operational cost by up to 1/5th. Let me repeat what I just said: our largest operational cost, a smart investment early on can reduce this to 1/5th. This is an economically driven decision, and it is not a tiny return on investment whatsoever.

Insurance cannot be applied solely to the solar panels, such insurance would apply to everything, and would be a separate operational cost, thus obviously not included here in these calculations.

Additionally, small scale solar panel installations are surprisingly low maintenance if they don't have sun trackers (no moving parts). Maintenance will obviously only cost a fraction of what we paid for the panels no matter how difficult the maintenance is.

The more you post, the more obvious it becomes you really don't have any clue whatsoever.

If investors invest BTC then profit/loss needs to be measured primarily in BTC.  VERY simple example using small round numbers.  These figures ONLY demonstrate the effect exchange rate has  and have NOTHING to do with how long it would take to break even.

We'll say current exchange rate is $10=1 BTC
WEll say equipment costs $1000 (10 BTC)
We'll say your electric costs/week are $5 and your equipment reduces that to $1
So your equipment is saving you $4 = 0.4 BTC per week and is worth $1000 (10 BTC)

Now let's say at some point later the exchange rate is now $20=1 BTC
Your equipment is still worth $1000 - but that's now only 5 BTC
And you're still saving $4 per week in electic costs - but that's now only 0.2 BTC

Electricty being sold in US$ does NOT cancel out the impact of exchange-rate fluctuations on the value of the actual equipment.  It actually ADDS to the impact of exchange-rate fluctuations.

When you're talking about a mining operation that is cancelled out to some extent by the increased value of mined coins.  If you're talking about a data-centre which sells its services in US$ then the exchange rate also has huge impact on profitability (expressed in BTC).

Put very simply, even if everything else works out as good about your plan, your plan is doomed to utter and complete failure (when expressed in BTC) if BTC continues to gain strength vs the dollar.

At best your plan could be considered as shorting BTC (or at least betting that it wont rise against the dollar) - until, of course, we consider the utterly pathetic rate of return it would give even if all your optimistic expectations proved true.
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September 15, 2012, 03:46:29 AM
 #617


Yes, that does not include maintenance costs.

Dragging BTC/USD exchange prices into this is a red herring. It doesn't matter what the price of BTC is because the power company charges us in USD. Power usage is the largest operating cost of a data center, more so than anything else by a huge margin, and this operating cost can only be measured in USD.

Solar power, as I demonstrated, can reduce this operational cost by up to 1/5th. Let me repeat what I just said: our largest operational cost, a smart investment early on can reduce this to 1/5th. This is an economically driven decision, and it is not a tiny return on investment whatsoever.

Insurance cannot be applied solely to the solar panels, such insurance would apply to everything, and would be a separate operational cost, thus obviously not included here in these calculations.

Additionally, small scale solar panel installations are surprisingly low maintenance if they don't have sun trackers (no moving parts). Maintenance will obviously only cost a fraction of what we paid for the panels no matter how difficult the maintenance is.

The more you post, the more obvious it becomes you really don't have any clue whatsoever.

If investors invest BTC then profit/loss needs to be measured primarily in BTC.  VERY simple example using small round numbers.  These figures ONLY demonstrate the effect exchange rate has  and have NOTHING to do with how long it would take to break even.

We'll say current exchange rate is $10=1 BTC
WEll say equipment costs $1000 (10 0 u missed a zero BTC)
We'll say your electric costs/week are $5 and your equipment reduces that to $1
So your equipment is saving you $4 = 0.4 BTC per week and is worth $1000 (10 0 u missed a zero BTC)

Now let's say at some point later the exchange rate is now $20=1 BTC
Your equipment is still worth $1000 - but that's now only 5 0 u missed a zero BTC
And you're still saving $4 per week in electic costs - but that's now only 0.2 BTC

Electricty being sold in US$ does NOT cancel out the impact of exchange-rate fluctuations on the value of the actual equipment.  It actually ADDS to the impact of exchange-rate fluctuations.

When you're talking about a mining operation that is cancelled out to some extent by the increased value of mined coins.  If you're talking about a data-centre which sells its services in US$ then the exchange rate also has huge impact on profitability (expressed in BTC).

Put very simply, even if everything else works out as good about your plan, your plan is doomed to utter and complete failure (when expressed in BTC) if BTC continues to gain strength vs the dollar.

At best your plan could be considered as shorting BTC (or at least betting that it wont rise against the dollar) - until, of course, we consider the utterly pathetic rate of return it would give even if all your optimistic expectations proved true.

missed zeros, even though missed, still has value.
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September 15, 2012, 04:17:29 AM
 #618


missed zeros, even though missed, still has value.

Oops - though it doesn't change anything about the principle involved.  Originally had the costs 1/10th the size but then increased them just in case Diablo started talking about how my figures proved what a huge return the equipment gave.  Of course forgot to also amend the BTC values up by a factor of 10.
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September 15, 2012, 11:40:21 AM
 #619

@MoinCoin... youre right that the energy in germany does cost more now. But one reason is because the high energy companies doesnt need to pay the fee for the new energies. Made by the government. That means all normal people have to pay their share of this cost.
But thats not the only one. In fact the power price is way too high. The much solarpower made the price of energy at the energy exchange drop. But the companies take this win in their own pocket. So they can pretend that the new energies are bad and that their own atomic power is best.

Here some infos. Unfortunately only in german.
Der zweite Link ist eine Grafik wo aus einer Studie heraus die echten Kosten des Stroms gezeigt werden. Weil Atomstrom usw immer auch staatliche Zuschüsse bedeutet:

"Der preissenkende Effekt (der „Merit-Order-Regelung*) wird mit zunehmender Einspeisung erneuerbarer Energien größer als der preiserhöhende Umlage-Effekt (durch die Einspeisevergütungen) , wird aber von den Versorgern nicht an die Verbraucher weitergegeben, sondern in die eigene Tasche gesteckt. Seit Jahren wird lediglich der preiserhöhende Effekt auf den Stromrechnungen als „EEG-Differenzkosten“ für erneuerbare Energien ausgewiesen. Die Stromkunden glauben dann, Strom aus erneuerbaren Energien würde sie um diesen Betrag finanziell stärker belasten als Strom aus fossiler Energie und Atomenergie. Doch das ist ein Irrtum, der durch das Bundeswirtschaftsministerium und die Stromwirtschaft zu Lasten der erneuerbaren Energien gerne gepflegt wird."
Von: http://www.nachdenkseiten.de/?p=14101

Na und den "billigen Strom" kann man sich ja hier mal anschauen: http://www.greenpeace-energy.de/uploads/pics/Stromkostenstudie_Pressegrafik_1.jpg
Von: http://www.greenpeace-energy.de/presse/pressedetails/article/verbraucher-zahlen-versteckte-konventionelle-energien-umlage-fuer-kohle-und-atomstrom.html

http://www.handelsblatt.com/politik/deutschland/studie-zu-strompreisen-kohle-und-atom-teurer-als-oekostrom/7059298.html

 

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September 15, 2012, 01:26:50 PM
 #620


Yes, that does not include maintenance costs.

Dragging BTC/USD exchange prices into this is a red herring. It doesn't matter what the price of BTC is because the power company charges us in USD. Power usage is the largest operating cost of a data center, more so than anything else by a huge margin, and this operating cost can only be measured in USD.

Solar power, as I demonstrated, can reduce this operational cost by up to 1/5th. Let me repeat what I just said: our largest operational cost, a smart investment early on can reduce this to 1/5th. This is an economically driven decision, and it is not a tiny return on investment whatsoever.

Insurance cannot be applied solely to the solar panels, such insurance would apply to everything, and would be a separate operational cost, thus obviously not included here in these calculations.

Additionally, small scale solar panel installations are surprisingly low maintenance if they don't have sun trackers (no moving parts). Maintenance will obviously only cost a fraction of what we paid for the panels no matter how difficult the maintenance is.

The more you post, the more obvious it becomes you really don't have any clue whatsoever.

If investors invest BTC then profit/loss needs to be measured primarily in BTC.  VERY simple example using small round numbers.  These figures ONLY demonstrate the effect exchange rate has  and have NOTHING to do with how long it would take to break even.

We'll say current exchange rate is $10=1 BTC
WEll say equipment costs $1000 (10 BTC)
We'll say your electric costs/week are $5 and your equipment reduces that to $1
So your equipment is saving you $4 = 0.4 BTC per week and is worth $1000 (10 BTC)

Now let's say at some point later the exchange rate is now $20=1 BTC
Your equipment is still worth $1000 - but that's now only 5 BTC
And you're still saving $4 per week in electic costs - but that's now only 0.2 BTC

Electricty being sold in US$ does NOT cancel out the impact of exchange-rate fluctuations on the value of the actual equipment.  It actually ADDS to the impact of exchange-rate fluctuations.

When you're talking about a mining operation that is cancelled out to some extent by the increased value of mined coins.  If you're talking about a data-centre which sells its services in US$ then the exchange rate also has huge impact on profitability (expressed in BTC).

Put very simply, even if everything else works out as good about your plan, your plan is doomed to utter and complete failure (when expressed in BTC) if BTC continues to gain strength vs the dollar.

At best your plan could be considered as shorting BTC (or at least betting that it wont rise against the dollar) - until, of course, we consider the utterly pathetic rate of return it would give even if all your optimistic expectations proved true.

See, I said it was a red herring, and you just demonstrated why. Don't worry, I fell for this early on too.

Let me repeat something, the electricity costs USD no matter what. If electricity is our largest operating cost, it doesn't matter if it costs thousands of dollars or dozens of Bitcoins... if I can cut that the whole way down to 1/5th of it, we save thousands, or we save dozens. That operating cost doesn't go away because we calculated the math in a different currency.

BTC prices since its inception have been rather random. Without an actual economy to back Bitcoin, it will continue to be unstable. Your example of BTC doubling is just as possible as BTC halving. We pay electricity in dollars, hell, we pay every cost in dollars, it simply doesn't matter what the price of BTC is now or what it will be in the future, we must pay those costs.

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