KanoPool since 2014 🐈 - PPLNS and Solo 0.5% fee - Worldwide - 2436 blocks

[kano]

As many would have noticed, I also did a ckdb restart in there.

There was a syncronisation issue between ckdb and ckpool so restarting ckdb resets the synchronisation and ensures no data was lost

ckdb tracks every record and every type of record it gets from ckpool since they all have continuous sequence numbers - so with the restart, as usual, I see no sequence problems so I know the synchronisation is all correct and zero data has been skipped/lost.
(a ckdb restart goes back and reprocesses from the last completed/summarised shift, reading the last hour or more, in this case 40 minutes of shift data back before the ckpool restart, so it can be sure it's all ok)

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[1714979398]

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[StevenD]

Hi  

Kano, Apologies if this turns out to be the most stupid post of the month so far.

I am just getting my head around how the pool pays by PPLNS, which while I have mined here I have seen the 5Nd period drop from 192hrs to 34hrs as the pool grows.

Never really considered this before today, because I haven't had to sat through a tough block that exceeded the 5Nd period, but I think this block hrs will be greater than the expected 5Nd payment period, which if I understand it, means were only going to get 1/5th of the payment for the last 36+ hrs, and we will loose out on any % payments that we didn't already receive from the previous found blocks, so that for some of the previous blocks we will loose 80%, 60% or 40%  of the expected payments should we have continued at the expected 100% rather than this maddening 480% + block that were struggling with.

The only good thing that I can see is that the previous found blocks which we will loose the payments were all quite close together so the loss on previous payments is not so bad, but if we have another bad block as the next one, then we would be loosing 80% of a lot of hours work from this current block.

Is there a point when a pool hash rate gets larger, 20PH+ or whatever, when it hits a point when the 5Nd from the PPLNS actually works against the miners, because the smaller and smaller hrs of the 5Nd period and any bad luck wipes out any benefit of trying to even out the payments by using the 5Nd, is there a point when a pool gets to a larger size to actually run PPS, so to pay for the work done as its done, and then no-one ever looses out on the bad blocks that can over-run the 5Nd period and cause the loss of previous work done.

is PPLNS always best for any sized pool, or is PPS better for a certain sized pools.

If this is a stupid question just delete it

Steve

[philipma1957]

Hi  

Kano, Apologies if this turns out to be the most stupid post of the month so far.

I am just getting my head around how the pool pays by PPLNS, which while I have mined here I have seen the 5Nd period drop from 192hrs to 34hrs as the pool grows.

Never really considered this before today, because I haven't had to sat through a tough block that exceeded the 5Nd period, but I think this block hrs will be greater than the expected 5Nd payment period, which if I understand it, means were only going to get 1/5th of the payment for the last 36+ hrs, and we will loose out on any % payments that we didn't already receive from the previous found blocks, so that for some of the previous blocks we will loose 80%, 60% or 40%  of the expected payments should we have continued at the expected 100% rather than this maddening 480% + block that were struggling with.

The only good thing that I can see is that the previous found blocks which we will loose the payments were all quite close together so the loss on previous payments is not so bad, but if we have another bad block as the next one, then we would be loosing 80% of a lot of hours work from this current block.

Is there a point when a pool hash rate gets larger, 20PH+ or whatever, when it hits a point when the 5Nd from the PPLNS actually works against the miners, because the smaller and smaller hrs of the 5Nd period and any bad luck wipes out any benefit of trying to even out the payments by using the 5Nd, is there a point when a pool gets to a larger size to actually run PPS, so to pay for the work done as its done, and then no-one ever looses out on the bad blocks that can over-run the 5Nd period and cause the loss of previous work done.

is PPLNS always best for any sized pool, or is PPS better for a certain sized pools.

If this is a stupid question just delete it

Steve

 If you do PPLNS   anytime you rip back to back cdfs of  99%  for your blocks you are fucked..  But just for the two blocks.  

The key is think in 100 block segments not 2 block segments.  What is the record for the last 100 blocks?

116.05%    now if you did PPS at a 99% payrate  for those 100 blocks  you would have lost out on the 17% over the 99%.

[wolfen]

I need a drink
Maybe some Valium.

[sorry2xs]

i nice Chaos Calmer will do

[philipma1957]

I need a drink
Maybe some Valium.

Well Yeah we are at 496%  which is over  a cdf of 99%.

 This is the 2nd worst block in history of the pool.

I have some high quality vodka that I dropped 6 vanilla sticks into.  Best vanilla vodka you could ever have.

[DarKSm0ke]

BLOCK 

[Jake36]

BLOCK  

Finally! Now "WE" can get on with Block Saturday, to make up for a non-block Friday..

And with 0.55687924 BTC in fee's!

[ZACHM]

There it is.

[hoosier_13]

Thank God, was getting worried

[philipma1957]

Hi  

Kano, Apologies if this turns out to be the most stupid post of the month so far.

I am just getting my head around how the pool pays by PPLNS, which while I have mined here I have seen the 5Nd period drop from 192hrs to 34hrs as the pool grows.

Never really considered this before today, because I haven't had to sat through a tough block that exceeded the 5Nd period, but I think this block hrs will be greater than the expected 5Nd payment period, which if I understand it, means were only going to get 1/5th of the payment for the last 36+ hrs, and we will loose out on any % payments that we didn't already receive from the previous found blocks, so that for some of the previous blocks we will loose 80%, 60% or 40%  of the expected payments should we have continued at the expected 100% rather than this maddening 480% + block that were struggling with.

The only good thing that I can see is that the previous found blocks which we will loose the payments were all quite close together so the loss on previous payments is not so bad, but if we have another bad block as the next one, then we would be loosing 80% of a lot of hours work from this current block.

Is there a point when a pool hash rate gets larger, 20PH+ or whatever, when it hits a point when the 5Nd from the PPLNS actually works against the miners, because the smaller and smaller hrs of the 5Nd period and any bad luck wipes out any benefit of trying to even out the payments by using the 5Nd, is there a point when a pool gets to a larger size to actually run PPS, so to pay for the work done as its done, and then no-one ever looses out on the bad blocks that can over-run the 5Nd period and cause the loss of previous work done.

is PPLNS always best for any sized pool, or is PPS better for a certain sized pools.

If this is a stupid question just delete it

Steve

 If you do PPLNS   anytime you rip back to back cdfs of  99%  for your blocks you are fucked..  But just for the two blocks.  

The key is think in 100 block segments not 2 block segments.  What is the record for the last 100 blocks?

116.05%    now if you did PPS at a 99% payrate  for those 100 blocks  you would have lost out on the 17% over the 99%.

To follow up f2pool pays 96% not 99% and f2pool takes the tx id fees. while give some NMC    nets to 96%  so over the last 100 blocks so if 100% was 1 btc

you would get .96 btc   from f2pool maybe .97 btc

kano you would get 1.16 btc maybe 1.164 btc since he gives the tx id fees.

so .97 to 1.16 is a good estimate for a 100 block period.

But for this block right now PPS is better.  Small samples of 1, 2, 3, 4 blocks  do not mean much.

a cdf of .993  second best ever

bitminerpro_S3R.2059A0C51E43     thanks hey was this an s3?

[sorry2xs]

church lady to pool Well aint that special

[generalt]

BLOCK 

That was a tough one at 502.797%

[sorry2xs]

it was a bit of a drain i say

[philipma1957]

we need a bang, bang, bam  in the next hour or two.

[wolfen]

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHH i'll take it.

[xgeniy]

go go kano! let's more green block)))

[sorry2xs]

? why would anyone would want to establish a connection to any devise with a 620589 milli second ping time???

[WBF1]

Hi  

Kano, Apologies if this turns out to be the most stupid post of the month so far.

I am just getting my head around how the pool pays by PPLNS, which while I have mined here I have seen the 5Nd period drop from 192hrs to 34hrs as the pool grows.

Never really considered this before today, because I haven't had to sat through a tough block that exceeded the 5Nd period, but I think this block hrs will be greater than the expected 5Nd payment period, which if I understand it, means were only going to get 1/5th of the payment for the last 36+ hrs, and we will loose out on any % payments that we didn't already receive from the previous found blocks, so that for some of the previous blocks we will loose 80%, 60% or 40%  of the expected payments should we have continued at the expected 100% rather than this maddening 480% + block that were struggling with.

The only good thing that I can see is that the previous found blocks which we will loose the payments were all quite close together so the loss on previous payments is not so bad, but if we have another bad block as the next one, then we would be loosing 80% of a lot of hours work from this current block.

Is there a point when a pool hash rate gets larger, 20PH+ or whatever, when it hits a point when the 5Nd from the PPLNS actually works against the miners, because the smaller and smaller hrs of the 5Nd period and any bad luck wipes out any benefit of trying to even out the payments by using the 5Nd, is there a point when a pool gets to a larger size to actually run PPS, so to pay for the work done as its done, and then no-one ever looses out on the bad blocks that can over-run the 5Nd period and cause the loss of previous work done.

is PPLNS always best for any sized pool, or is PPS better for a certain sized pools.

If this is a stupid question just delete it

Steve

Short answer is PPLNS is better than PPS because PPS is capped. For example, if you mine at a pool with 5% fee, paying PPS, the most you will ever make compared to expected payout is 95%... even if thepool hits a string of blocks at 50% dificulty (which means the pool income is roughly 200% expected income but you only get 95%). Works the other way too where a string of 200% difficulty blocks has the pool at roughly 50% expected income but you get 95%. PPS will always have higher fee to make up for variance.

In the above scenario, on PPLNS, you get 200% of expected income when the pool hits a string of fast blocks at 50% difficulty and 50% expected income when with a string of 200% blocks. BUT PPLNS smooths out this variance using a window of size N to look backwards and see what portion of the payout you get.

The only time work isever unpaid is when work on one block goes over 500% (because N here is 5d where d is difficulty). This hasn't happened very often. And like phillipma1957 said, you have to look at it over a longer time span. At time spans of 7 days or more, this pool is over 100%.

[dontetris]

And there it is, 502% diff