BitForce SC - full custom ASIC

[Fiyasko]

They said USB coffee warmer (3.5GH), but they didn't say it gets powered without requiring an external power supply, or doesn't use a 2xUSB cable splitter to get twice the wattage, so we don't know for sure that it's 2 watts.

Yeah i'd like more clairification on this too, I've asked before, But other fourm members just quote apart of BFL's statement about the device, emblod a word and say "a USB powered coffee war-"

[1714134960]

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[imsaguy]

They said USB coffee warmer (3.5GH), but they didn't say it gets powered without requiring an external power supply, or doesn't use a 2xUSB cable splitter to get twice the wattage, so we don't know for sure that it's 2 watts.

Yeah i'd like more clairification on this too, I've asked before, But other fourm members just quote apart of BFL's statement about the device, emblod a word and say "a USB powered coffee war-"

It really doesn't matter at this point anyway.  BFL has a tendency to be off on their initial estimates anyway.

[ice_chill]

They said USB coffee warmer (3.5GH), but they didn't say it gets powered without requiring an external power supply, or doesn't use a 2xUSB cable splitter to get twice the wattage, so we don't know for sure that it's 2 watts.

Yeah i'd like more clairification on this too, I've asked before, But other fourm members just quote apart of BFL's statement about the device, emblod a word and say "a USB powered coffee war-"

It really doesn't matter at this point anyway.  BFL has a tendency to be off on their initial estimates anyway.

The were spot on with the MiniRig.

[Grouver (BtcBalance)]

Well I'm doing more research specific to the state of missouri and am awaiting a response form the better business bureau. I have also contacted an attorney who specializes in this type of law to ascertain the legality of such practices. Kickstarter projects differ from what BFL is doing as far as I can tell.

I'll know for sure shortly depending on the response rate of the state of missouri and the attorney general's office, etc.

Maybe everyone else is fine with BFL's business practices, but I smell a rat here. If I'm wrong, well no harm done and everyone can carry on with their no interest loans. If I'm right then maybe they will be forced to engage in better business practices which should benefit everyone.

I'm baffled as to how people can believe this company is "on the level" when it took a demand from the community to get a simple clarification on their announced trade in policy.

You can't tell me they didn't already know how they planned on handling trade-ins before they made the announcement.

If so, then this is yet another example of a reckless announcement designed to hamper their competition and stall orders from competing vendors.

Once again, I am NOT anti ASIC, I'm anti poor business practices and this community and all consumers deserve better.

And thats why I created this thread:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=90350.0

Please don't let it die.
Though, if you say is true, then I doubt BFL will respond.

[imsaguy]

It really doesn't matter at this point anyway.  BFL has a tendency to be off on their initial estimates anyway.

The were spot on with the MiniRig.

Actually, they over/underestimated (in the good way) for the MiniRig.  I wasn't taking a swipe, I just mean their estimates are only that, so if the numbers can go either way.. it doesn't make much sense stabbing blindly in the dark until they release firmer numbers.

[Syke]

It really doesn't matter at this point anyway.  BFL has a tendency to be off on their initial estimates anyway.

The were spot on with the MiniRig.

From Single to MiniRig is FPGA to FPGA. Not much different. Going from FPGA to ASIC is going to have a whole new pile of surprises for them.

[dropt]

My purely academic view on this not to be construed in anyway as legal advice is:

I cannot think of anything that would make this practice illegal. You are under no obligation to enter into a purchase contract with BFL. It is their product to sell and as long as they do not make a material misrepresentation then deliver the product as promised then it seem like it would be a valid contract.

The elements of a valid offer include, Duration, Subject matter, Quantity, Quality, Work to Be Done, Price and Payment terms. There is bargained for exchange, namely the promise to send you a certain number of SC units, of a certain quality and quantity within a promised time frame in exchange for your payment. It is in essence an executory contract which you have performed on already by virtue of your payment and you are waiting for BFL to perform their side. If they fail to perform, you most certainly have a cause of action.

Even if their practices were actionable, you would not have a cause of action (in civil court) as you were not harmed (unless you ordered some already).  You could perhaps be a witness in a criminal action by the state or federal government if they decided to prosecute them for some type of illegal behavior, but again, I do not see anything illegal about their ordering process. You may not like it, but unhappiness with a contract process is not valid grounds for a tort action.

They're most likely operating in violation of FTC regulation as well as consumer protection laws in the state of MO.  Their company is registered in Wyoming (afaik) so I'm not sure which consumer protection laws acutally apply.

[copumpkin]

In fact, ASIC is the only thing that can prevent 51% attack. Why? Today there are banks, financial
institutions, intelligence organizations that have super-computers, consisting of thousand and thousands
of CPUs or GPUs. These grids are used to run financial analysis, mostly Monte-Carlo.

Imagine "Societe General" in France for example. They have a GPU array of 15,000. If for financial
interests or certain other reasons, they decided to switch to BitCoin for a week. This grid alone can
give them over 15TH in processing power... this will not be 51% attack, it will be 120% attack.
This is just one bank, activating only one of its grids.

As long as the algorithm used in BitCoin can be effectively implemented in CPU or GPUs, network will always
be under threat. Scrypt won't be good either, since many institutions have grids of several thousand CPUs.

The only thing that can stop it is the ASIC. Imagine tomorrow the processing power of the BitCoin network
is 2,000TH. This is something super-computers cannot attack, simply because their combined processing
power cannot reach even 10% of it, let alone 51% attack....


Regards,
BF Labs Inc.

Yeah, because the big organizations can't buy your ASICs, and nobody else will ever develop similar technology, right? I'm sure BFL would hate getting a hundred-million dollar order from a government for several petahashes/s of computing power.

[imsaguy]

In fact, ASIC is the only thing that can prevent 51% attack. Why? Today there are banks, financial
institutions, intelligence organizations that have super-computers, consisting of thousand and thousands
of CPUs or GPUs. These grids are used to run financial analysis, mostly Monte-Carlo.

Imagine "Societe General" in France for example. They have a GPU array of 15,000. If for financial
interests or certain other reasons, they decided to switch to BitCoin for a week. This grid alone can
give them over 15TH in processing power... this will not be 51% attack, it will be 120% attack.
This is just one bank, activating only one of its grids.

As long as the algorithm used in BitCoin can be effectively implemented in CPU or GPUs, network will always
be under threat. Scrypt won't be good either, since many institutions have grids of several thousand CPUs.

The only thing that can stop it is the ASIC. Imagine tomorrow the processing power of the BitCoin network
is 2,000TH. This is something super-computers cannot attack, simply because their combined processing
power cannot reach even 10% of it, let alone 51% attack....


Regards,
BF Labs Inc.

Glad to see you can't do math.

Assuming the network is 10TH, if France adds 15TH, they won't be doing a 120% attack.  They'll be doing a 60% attack. 15/(10+15) = .6

[sadpandatech]

In fact, ASIC is the only thing that can prevent 51% attack. Why? Today there are banks, financial
institutions, intelligence organizations that have super-computers, consisting of thousand and thousands
of CPUs or GPUs. These grids are used to run financial analysis, mostly Monte-Carlo.

Imagine "Societe General" in France for example. They have a GPU array of 15,000. If for financial
interests or certain other reasons, they decided to switch to BitCoin for a week. This grid alone can
give them over 15TH in processing power... this will not be 51% attack, it will be 120% attack.
This is just one bank, activating only one of its grids.

As long as the algorithm used in BitCoin can be effectively implemented in CPU or GPUs, network will always
be under threat. Scrypt won't be good either, since many institutions have grids of several thousand CPUs.

The only thing that can stop it is the ASIC. Imagine tomorrow the processing power of the BitCoin network
is 2,000TH. This is something super-computers cannot attack, simply because their combined processing
power cannot reach even 10% of it, let alone 51% attack....


Regards,
BF Labs Inc.

Glad to see you can't do math.

Assuming the network is 10TH, if France adds 15TH, they won't be doing a 120% attack.  They'll be doing a 60% attack. 15/(10+15) = .6

not to mention a bank PH is not equal a dbl sha PH...

[imsaguy]

In fact, ASIC is the only thing that can prevent 51% attack. Why? Today there are banks, financial
institutions, intelligence organizations that have super-computers, consisting of thousand and thousands
of CPUs or GPUs. These grids are used to run financial analysis, mostly Monte-Carlo.

Imagine "Societe General" in France for example. They have a GPU array of 15,000. If for financial
interests or certain other reasons, they decided to switch to BitCoin for a week. This grid alone can
give them over 15TH in processing power... this will not be 51% attack, it will be 120% attack.
This is just one bank, activating only one of its grids.

As long as the algorithm used in BitCoin can be effectively implemented in CPU or GPUs, network will always
be under threat. Scrypt won't be good either, since many institutions have grids of several thousand CPUs.

The only thing that can stop it is the ASIC. Imagine tomorrow the processing power of the BitCoin network
is 2,000TH. This is something super-computers cannot attack, simply because their combined processing
power cannot reach even 10% of it, let alone 51% attack....


Regards,
BF Labs Inc.

Glad to see you can't do math.

Assuming the network is 10TH, if France adds 15TH, they won't be doing a 120% attack.  They'll be doing a 60% attack. 15/(10+15) = .6

not to mention a bank PH is not equal a dbl sha PH...

I'm actually curious to know what gpus are typically used in those sorts of gpu clusters.

[bulanula]

In fact, ASIC is the only thing that can prevent 51% attack. Why? Today there are banks, financial
institutions, intelligence organizations that have super-computers, consisting of thousand and thousands
of CPUs or GPUs. These grids are used to run financial analysis, mostly Monte-Carlo.

Imagine "Societe General" in France for example. They have a GPU array of 15,000. If for financial
interests or certain other reasons, they decided to switch to BitCoin for a week. This grid alone can
give them over 15TH in processing power... this will not be 51% attack, it will be 120% attack.
This is just one bank, activating only one of its grids.

As long as the algorithm used in BitCoin can be effectively implemented in CPU or GPUs, network will always
be under threat. Scrypt won't be good either, since many institutions have grids of several thousand CPUs.

The only thing that can stop it is the ASIC. Imagine tomorrow the processing power of the BitCoin network
is 2,000TH. This is something super-computers cannot attack, simply because their combined processing
power cannot reach even 10% of it, let alone 51% attack....


Regards,
BF Labs Inc.

Glad to see you can't do math.

Assuming the network is 10TH, if France adds 15TH, they won't be doing a 120% attack.  They'll be doing a 60% attack. 15/(10+15) = .6

not to mention a bank PH is not equal a dbl sha PH...

I'm actually curious to know what gpus are typically used in those sorts of gpu clusters.

Most likely Nvidia ... which sucks for BTC mining but is the industry standard for GPU computations like weather and financial analysis ( Monte Carlo ).

[sadpandatech]

I'm actually curious to know what gpus are typically used in those sorts of gpu clusters.

Typically something like these, http://www.nvidia.com/object/workstation-solutions-tesla.html

if not a full custom solution. Nither of which is particularly well suited for dbl sha.

their c2070 for example is
Double Precision floating point
performance (peak)
>> 515 Gflops

Bitcoin rough Pflop estimation is currently 158.23Pflops

so ~306,796 of these cards to match it.

That's roughly 40MH per card. The full out Tesla workstations S2070(w/ 4M2070's) for example can do about 750MH according to the hardware comparison. Not sure what exact model and whether they had M2070 or M2090 and they may have had multiple cores beyond the standard.

[MoonShadow]

Just a suggestion. 

considering that BF is making a standalone USB miner that can also keep you coffee cup warm, is there any technical reason that a asic based heat trace cable that mines whenever the tempeture of the water drops below 45 degrees F cannot be produced as well?

[rupy]

So if I get you right you have a product that is 40 times better (MH/$) than ztex. I thought ASIC only lowered electricity consumption compared to FPGAs.

You need to disclose power consumption and noise level.

When will you show pictures of the products?

So 22/3 ~ 7.33... better it is:

zTex 40W for 1GH
BFL 30W for 5.5GH

Not bad but still far away from the 40x promised.

And again when will you disclose pictures of the new single case!?

Long time, same questions!

[Bicknellski]

A company cannot simply play Yo-Yo with its product pricing.

yoyo implies 2 directions. I agree, that wont happen. But if you are implying you will hold prices steady even as difficulty skyrockets, I think potential buyers would like to hear that said explicitly, because I dont believe it for a second.

y shows that we have not done such thing with our singles or Mini-Rigs. Even now that
we are announcing ASIC, we have the trade-in program to make sure our clients do not suffer investment loss to a newer
generation of mining platform.

Yes, but that offer will hardly cost you anything. Mind you, I think its a good idea, and Ill credit you for it,  but its nothing like the tradeoff you will have to make once difficulty begins skyrocketing.

Our general (and strict) policy is to make sure our clients recover their investment and make proper profit in a timely manner.
I cannot explicitly disclose more data prior to our announcement, but it would be sufficient to say that whatever path we choose
must and will be a 'win-win' path (even if it translates into loss of profit for us). Any other strategy will result in loss-of-client
which is certainly not what we're after.

Regards,
BF Labs Inc.

Tells us again about this win win path you were on Nasser Ghoseiri.

Case details

Court:   mowd
Docket #:   4:14-cv-00815
Case Name:   Federal Trade Commission v. BF Labs, Inc. et al
PACER case #:   117531
Date filed:   2014-09-15
Date of last filing:   2014-11-04
Assigned to:   District Judge Brian C. Wimes
Case Cause:   15:0053 Federal Trade Commission Act
Nature of Suit:   890 Other Statutory Actions
Jury Demand:   None
Jurisdiction:   U.S. Government Plaintiff


http://ia802308.us.archive.org/32/items/gov.uscourts.mowd.117531/gov.uscourts.mowd.117531.docket.html


#askftc

[dropt]

A company cannot simply play Yo-Yo with its product pricing.

yoyo implies 2 directions. I agree, that wont happen. But if you are implying you will hold prices steady even as difficulty skyrockets, I think potential buyers would like to hear that said explicitly, because I dont believe it for a second.

y shows that we have not done such thing with our singles or Mini-Rigs. Even now that
we are announcing ASIC, we have the trade-in program to make sure our clients do not suffer investment loss to a newer
generation of mining platform.

Yes, but that offer will hardly cost you anything. Mind you, I think its a good idea, and Ill credit you for it,  but its nothing like the tradeoff you will have to make once difficulty begins skyrocketing.

Our general (and strict) policy is to make sure our clients recover their investment and make proper profit in a timely manner.
I cannot explicitly disclose more data prior to our announcement, but it would be sufficient to say that whatever path we choose
must and will be a 'win-win' path (even if it translates into loss of profit for us). Any other strategy will result in loss-of-client
which is certainly not what we're after.

Regards,
BF Labs Inc.

Tells us again about this win win path you were on.

Case details

Court:   mowd
Docket #:   4:14-cv-00815
Case Name:   Federal Trade Commission v. BF Labs, Inc. et al
PACER case #:   117531
Date filed:   2014-09-15
Date of last filing:   2014-11-04
Assigned to:   District Judge Brian C. Wimes
Case Cause:   15:0053 Federal Trade Commission Act
Nature of Suit:   890 Other Statutory Actions
Jury Demand:   None
Jurisdiction:   U.S. Government Plaintiff


http://ia802308.us.archive.org/32/items/gov.uscourts.mowd.117531/gov.uscourts.mowd.117531.docket.html


#askftc

Well now, excellent find Bicknellski.

[Bicknellski]

A company cannot simply play Yo-Yo with its product pricing.

yoyo implies 2 directions. I agree, that wont happen. But if you are implying you will hold prices steady even as difficulty skyrockets, I think potential buyers would like to hear that said explicitly, because I dont believe it for a second.

y shows that we have not done such thing with our singles or Mini-Rigs. Even now that
we are announcing ASIC, we have the trade-in program to make sure our clients do not suffer investment loss to a newer
generation of mining platform.

Yes, but that offer will hardly cost you anything. Mind you, I think its a good idea, and Ill credit you for it,  but its nothing like the tradeoff you will have to make once difficulty begins skyrocketing.

Our general (and strict) policy is to make sure our clients recover their investment and make proper profit in a timely manner.
I cannot explicitly disclose more data prior to our announcement, but it would be sufficient to say that whatever path we choose
must and will be a 'win-win' path (even if it translates into loss of profit for us). Any other strategy will result in loss-of-client
which is certainly not what we're after.

Regards,
BF Labs Inc.

Tells us again about this win win path you were on.

Case details

Court:   mowd
Docket #:   4:14-cv-00815
Case Name:   Federal Trade Commission v. BF Labs, Inc. et al
PACER case #:   117531
Date filed:   2014-09-15
Date of last filing:   2014-11-04
Assigned to:   District Judge Brian C. Wimes
Case Cause:   15:0053 Federal Trade Commission Act
Nature of Suit:   890 Other Statutory Actions
Jury Demand:   None
Jurisdiction:   U.S. Government Plaintiff


http://ia802308.us.archive.org/32/items/gov.uscourts.mowd.117531/gov.uscourts.mowd.117531.docket.html


#askftc

Well now, excellent find Bicknellski.

Not me who found it. Check the BFL Fucked us over thread.

[Bicknellski]

Not sure why it would matter, as long as they got their box back.

Not sure either, I'm just going off this quote from BFL, which makes it sound like only singles purchased from BFL would be covered.

The trade-in program involves return of a single, a mini-rig or mini-rig cards purchased from Butterfly Labs.
The date of purchase does not really matter, the credit is given to the customer as soon as the unit
reachs our office.

Straight off the BFL SC FAQ on the website:

"Upon release of BitForce SC based Singles & Mini Rigs, all previous generation BitForce products will enjoy a full 100% trade in value when used towards the purchase of the newer generation replacements.  This means your current device is protected from depreciation through this evolution in technology.  This buy back offer is good for all previous generation BitForce units whether purchased directly from us or from a third party."

So to answer your question, yes, they will accept anything whether purchased from BFL directly or not.

Didn't someone send a broken BFL Single to the maker of Lancelot to hack?  ....    ooops

If anyone receives a broken single, they would definitely send it back to us for replacement. I don't think 600$ of investment
is something people would easily overlook...



Regards,
BF Labs Inc.

That is nice... how did those RMA's go anyhow? Refunds and Replacements that is what BFL is known for now right Eh Nasser G. ?

[Xian01]

I don't think 600$ of investment is something people would easily overlook...

You're right. Customers would not easily overlook investing $600 in your hardware. In retrospect, it seems that you did overlook their $600 investment, orders-of-magnitude over.