BitForce SC - full custom ASIC

[Inaba]

I'm just curious as to why so many people think BFL somehow owes them an explanation for how they do things.  Some people felt "owed" (and still do) an explanation on how they acquire their chips for the Singles.  Some people feel they are "owed" and explanation for how they are able to produce the (as yet to be seen) mini-rigs for the price.  Now some people feel that BFL OWES them an explanation for their ASIC technology?  Really?

You people who feel you are owed an explanation for ANYTHING are delusional and your sense of entitlement is epic.  You are, quite literally, the reason so much of the world is shit.  You go around thinking you are entitled to things you have absolutely no stake in, things you have not earned.  The world does not owe you shit, you have to earn what you get.  You idiots demanding that BFL disclose proprietary information deserve absolutely nothing. You aren't owed anything.  

You have earned exactly two things Jack and Shit... and Jack left town.

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[bulanula]

I'm just curious as to why so many people think BFL somehow owes them an explanation for how they do things.  Some people felt "owed" (and still do) an explanation on how they acquire their chips for the Singles.  Some people feel they are "owed" and explanation for how they are able to produce the (as yet to be seen) mini-rigs for the price.  Now some people feel that BFL OWES them an explanation for their ASIC technology?  Really?

You people who feel you are owed an explanation for ANYTHING are delusional and your sense of entitlement is epic.  You are, quite literally, the reason so much of the world is shit.  You go around thinking you are entitled to things you have absolutely no stake in, things you have not earned.  The world does not owe you shit, you have to earn what you get.  You idiots demanding that BFL disclose proprietary information deserve absolutely nothing. You aren't owed anything.  

You have earned exactly two things Jack and Shit... and Jack left town.

+1

[jamesg]

Even recovering the initial $1M would only take a few months.  

Wouldnt be so sure. Have you tried selling $1M worth of bitcoins lately?

Mt. Gox is exchanging around $2M per month in bitcoin versus only $1M in newly mined bitcoin.  So there is apparent depth.  The actual depth would depend on what percentage of miners are hoarding bitcoin versus spending.  A change in this ratio at a rate greater than new participants in the Bitcoin economy would swing rates.  Given the vast profit margins of internally mining you could afford to swing the market down quite a bit.  I would set a threshold of around $4 / bitcoin and move to the selling hardware to miners model if selling 100% of bitcoin output was moving the market.

Of course, if the market can't absorb 100% of miner output then buying single purpose hardware for mining is a very bad investment.  Paying in advance to fund the development costs of a company that doesn't have confidence in Bitcoin is an even worse decision.

I'm not quite sure why BFL would take on MORE RISK after funding the development of an ASIC chip.

Good business managers know that risk mitigation is way more important than quick profits.

[jamesg]

The folks that are making large wire transfers to them should understand that they risk receiving nothing in exchange for their money.

Good thing you are here to worry for the rest of us. It would be a shame if they had to worry for themselves.

[Raoul Duke]

I doubt it is legal to collect the full purchase price for products still in development.

Where were you during the 6 month Bitcoin Magazine debacle?

[Entropy-uc]

I'm not quite sure why BFL would take on MORE RISK after funding the development of an ASIC chip.

Good business managers know that risk mitigation is way more important than quick profits.

I think an audit of BFL's books would show that you have been a significant source of funding for whatever development work has been done.  Your cash up front for hardware that still hasn't shipped has been BFL's risk mitigation.

As I pointed out earlier, risk mitigation could be accomplished by borrowing in bitcoin to recover existing costs.  If the exchange rate swings, or collapses you pay back in devalued bitcoin.  And the loan is repaid out of your super-fantastic 900% / ROI ASICs.  

[BFL-Engineer]

I'm not quite sure why BFL would take on MORE RISK after funding the development of an ASIC chip.

Good business managers know that risk mitigation is way more important than quick profits.

I think an audit of BFL's books would show that you have been a significant source of funding for whatever development work has been done.  Your cash up front for hardware that still hasn't shipped has been BFL's risk mitigation.

As I pointed out earlier, risk mitigation could be accomplished by borrowing in bitcoin to recover existing costs.  If the exchange rate swings, or collapses you pay back in devalued bitcoin.  And the loan is repaid out of your super-fantastic 900% / ROI ASICs.  

I do have one question... What is exactly the point you are trying to make?


Regards,
BF Labs Inc.

[coretechs]

I find it depressing that people are anti-ASIC and suggest algorithm changes.  Luddites!

The reality is that SOMEONE will develop an ASIC for mining in the next few years whether you like it or not.  They may do it in the secretive manner described above and nobody would even know.  I'm glad that BFL has openly stated they want to sell them to end users, and hopefully they will see some healthy competition from other groups developing ASICs.  If bitcoin is going to continue the hashing arms-race is inevitable.

[Raoul Duke]

I doubt it is legal to collect the full purchase price for products still in development.

Where were you during the 6 month Bitcoin Magazine debacle?

working on 14nm process node technology.

OK. You only care about what other companies do when they're your competitors and are getting close to kick your ass. Got it!

[P4man]

Shame that BFL will be the first to market with an ASIC. 

That remains to be seen.

[rjk]

Shame that BFL will be the first to market with an ASIC. 

That remains to be seen.

Do you have something you are dying to tell us?

[yochdog]

I wish I could run my business with working capital aquired from sales of future products.  What a world. 

[DILLIGAF]

I'm not quite sure why BFL would take on MORE RISK after funding the development of an ASIC chip.

Good business managers know that risk mitigation is way more important than quick profits.

I think an audit of BFL's books would show that you have been a significant source of funding for whatever development work has been done.  Your cash up front for hardware that still hasn't shipped has been BFL's risk mitigation.

As I pointed out earlier, risk mitigation could be accomplished by borrowing in bitcoin to recover existing costs.  If the exchange rate swings, or collapses you pay back in devalued bitcoin.  And the loan is repaid out of your super-fantastic 900% / ROI ASICs.  

I do have one question... What is exactly the point you are trying to make?


Regards,
BF Labs Inc.

I think it is pretty obvious your business model of cash up front followed by product months later with no communication of your plans/what you are doing with that money/product in the meantime is as others have pointed out is just a little bit shady...

[rjk]

The money required here is trivial, if the masks are paid for already.  I could access enough cash today to leverage up to the majority of the hashes in 3 or 4 months.

You could even do it borrowing from the insane 7% / week ponzis that are springing up all over bitcoin.  This would have the added benefit of hedging out all of your bitcoin value risk

They don't have money.  That is the only reason that justifies the observed actions.

Anyone that still thinks anything BFL does is legitimate should read this over and over until it sinks in.

Soo.. you are believing the words of some unknown noob, rather than someone who has delivered? Sure. And, pray tell, how do you think a dedicated Bitcoin mining ASIC mask already exists, that they can make a run off of? Answer: it doesn't, at least I have my doubts that someone created a mask and never used it. Use some common sense for fuck's sake.

[P4man]

Do you have something you are dying to tell us?

Considering BFLs history, Im not expecting products in customer hands from them this year.  It took what,  almost 6? months  for the singles to really arrive, and those were "just" standard, off the shelve FPGAs. Product cycle for a custom asic is quite a different thing. So between now and then, a lot could happen.  Who knows, maybe even Largecoin will turn out be legit  

[SgtSpike]

If they end up selling ASIC units then these units will be priced at breakeven or a loss to miners over the next 12+ months simply because if anyone is capable of building ASIC units and mine with it in a profitable setup then it would be retarded to sell these units and lose out on your own market share where you could be earning more than selling it.

This.  Anyone that thinks BFL is out for anything other than pure profit is naively fooling themselves.  BFL doesn't care if bitcoin dies as long as it maximizes the bottom line.

Shame that BFL will be the first to market with an ASIC.  Couldn't happen to a shadier company.

Fortunately for us, ensuring the continued success of Bitcoin is exactly what WILL maximize BFL's bottom line, and they know that.  They wouldn't do anything that would harm confidence in Bitcoin or cause it to die.  BFL will only continue selling miners so long as mining is profitable, which means they should and will do everything in their power to maximize miners' revenue.

[rjk]

Whether the mask exists now or not is irrelevant to the main point Entropy is making.

Really? Did you see the bolded part of his statement that was prefixed with an "IF"? In case you weren't aware, the mask is the main cost for this operation, the other costs are trivial in comparison.

[rjk]

Considering BFLs history, Im not expecting products in customer hands from them this year.  It took what,  almost 6? months  for the singles to really arrive, and those were "just" standard, off the shelve FPGAs. Product cycle for a custom asic is quite a different thing. So between now and then, a lot could happen.  Who knows, maybe even Largecoin will turn out be legit  

To be sure, I am hoping they figured out that we don't really like announcements that are so far in the future as last time, and have accordingly waited for this release. I suppose we will see, eventually. When was Largecoin supposed to deliver, anyways? I have almost forgotten about them....

[jamesg]

Fortunately for us, ensuring the continued success of Bitcoin is exactly what WILL maximize BFL's bottom line, and they know that.  They wouldn't do anything that would harm confidence in Bitcoin or cause it to die.  BFL will only continue selling miners so long as mining is profitable, which means they should and will do everything in their power to maximize miners' revenue.

Sounds like someone is starting to make some sense around here.

Pity all the naysayers don't just do their due diligence (I've said this multiple times and I'll keep saying it) and get to know the guys over at BFL. I have, and they are some pretty smart guys who believe in Bitcoin's potential.

[rjk]

Whether the mask exists now or not is irrelevant to the main point Entropy is making.

Really? Did you see the bolded part of his statement that was prefixed with an "IF"? In case you weren't aware, the mask is the main cost for this operation, the other costs are trivial in comparison.

All costs are trivial if you don't have to use any of your own money.

True, but how often does an investor throw good money after what could potentially be bad, without expecting anything in return? I have my doubts that any financing was "free".