[ANN] LocalBitcoins.com - a location-based bitcoin to cash marketplace

[cardcomm]

Hello,

I've just started looking at LocalBitcoins.com for an online buy funded from within the US. I'm having a little trouble sorting through and understanding all the available funding options, and their costs. I see many funding options listed - including OKPay, MoneyGram, Western Union, bank transfers from specific banks, etc.

Is there somewhere I can easily find out more about the cost and restrictions of each funding option, without researching each one individually? I'm a little overwhelmed by the funding options. I've tried doing the research myself, but some of the funding options (like MoneyGram) offer different services at different fees. I'm not sure even which service is correct.

Sorry for the noob question, and thanks in advance for any helpful response

Hi Cardcomm

yeah, a noob question it is but those are the most valuable for the devs as most noobs don't dare to ask and so the service ends up only being used by the experience users that flood the devs with more expert features making the noob experience even worse although more and more features get accomplished, so thanks again. We were all noobs at some point.

(terms made up by me. people please correct me if there are better names for these types of exchanges)
There are floating exchanges (the exchange allows you to make arbitrary buy and sell offers and the exchange matches them, having all the coins and $$ under their control. MtGox is one of them), market maker exchanges (the exchange is basically just one big market maker that offers a buy and a sell price that it adjusts much slower than some floating exchange, so you can buy and sell at a price at display) and there are "social" exchanges that facilitate the process of other people willing to exchange, but that don't actually hold your money. Most prominent example historically would be the OTC IRC where the first "exchange" established. These exchanges keep track of the reputation of traders and help you find out who you can trade with based on the payment methods available to you. Localbitcoins opted to target more for the in person exchange where you deal with cash but due to demand, now all the classical methods that you mentioned are offered by its users as well. Localbitcoins is agnostic to the payment option though. It only distinguishes between cash and electronic in that cash is advertised to your proximity and electronic to all within your currency independent of distance. Therefore Localbitcoins has no core interest in providing fee infos as neither can it know all the details of MPesa, Chinese wire transfer, Australian food tokens or whatnot people decide to use, nor the fees the advertiser is willing to cover. Therefore you have to read the single advertisements and judge for yourself if that trader is trustworthy and if you like the payment method. It is much more heterogeneous than MtGox for example but therefore also has a strength.

Thanks for all the responses.

I should have made it clear in my OP that I'm unable to do a face-to-face meet up to buy bitcoins. I realized that is what the site was originally designed for, but that won't work for me personally. So it's only the online purchase options that I'm interested in.

I also understand that LocalBitcoins really has no stake in how I pay, and it's up to the individual seller to set their method of payment, and for me to choose a seller based on their feedback, funding methods, etc.

The question arises when I try and determine the best (fastest/cheapest) funding method. Looking just at MoneyGram alone, there is a pretty complex fees schedule based on where you pay, where the payment recipient lives, and how fast you want the payment delivered. Those are just some of the variable for ONE of the possible payment options.

I believe I have a good understanding of bitcoin trading and how LocalBitcoins itself works. I clearly have to first narrow down my acceptable funding options before choosing a seller. But I'm daunted by the plethora of funding options, and I don't feel I have enough information to make an informed decision. For example, with MoneyGram, the only way I can see to determine what my ACTUAL costs are to send the funds is to do a transaction and see what they charge. LOL! There has to be a better way...

[molecular]

Hello,

I've just started looking at LocalBitcoins.com for an online buy funded from within the US. I'm having a little trouble sorting through and understanding all the available funding options, and their costs. I see many funding options listed - including OKPay, MoneyGram, Western Union, bank transfers from specific banks, etc.

Is there somewhere I can easily find out more about the cost and restrictions of each funding option, without researching each one individually? I'm a little overwhelmed by the funding options. I've tried doing the research myself, but some of the funding options (like MoneyGram) offer different services at different fees. I'm not sure even which service is correct.

Sorry for the noob question, and thanks in advance for any helpful response

Hi Cardcomm

yeah, a noob question it is but those are the most valuable for the devs as most noobs don't dare to ask and so the service ends up only being used by the experience users that flood the devs with more expert features making the noob experience even worse although more and more features get accomplished, so thanks again. We were all noobs at some point.

(terms made up by me. people please correct me if there are better names for these types of exchanges)
There are floating exchanges (the exchange allows you to make arbitrary buy and sell offers and the exchange matches them, having all the coins and $$ under their control. MtGox is one of them), market maker exchanges (the exchange is basically just one big market maker that offers a buy and a sell price that it adjusts much slower than some floating exchange, so you can buy and sell at a price at display) and there are "social" exchanges that facilitate the process of other people willing to exchange, but that don't actually hold your money. Most prominent example historically would be the OTC IRC where the first "exchange" established. These exchanges keep track of the reputation of traders and help you find out who you can trade with based on the payment methods available to you. Localbitcoins opted to target more for the in person exchange where you deal with cash but due to demand, now all the classical methods that you mentioned are offered by its users as well. Localbitcoins is agnostic to the payment option though. It only distinguishes between cash and electronic in that cash is advertised to your proximity and electronic to all within your currency independent of distance. Therefore Localbitcoins has no core interest in providing fee infos as neither can it know all the details of MPesa, Chinese wire transfer, Australian food tokens or whatnot people decide to use, nor the fees the advertiser is willing to cover. Therefore you have to read the single advertisements and judge for yourself if that trader is trustworthy and if you like the payment method. It is much more heterogeneous than MtGox for example but therefore also has a strength.

Thanks for all the responses.

I should have made it clear in my OP that I'm unable to do a face-to-face meet up to buy bitcoins. I realized that is what the site was originally designed for, but that won't work for me personally. So it's only the online purchase options that I'm interested in.

I also understand that LocalBitcoins really has no stake in how I pay, and it's up to the individual seller to set their method of payment, and for me to choose a seller based on their feedback, funding methods, etc.

The question arises when I try and determine the best (fastest/cheapest) funding method. Looking just at MoneyGram alone, there is a pretty complex fees schedule based on where you pay, where the payment recipient lives, and how fast you want the payment delivered. Those are just some of the variable for ONE of the possible payment options.

I believe I have a good understanding of bitcoin trading and how LocalBitcoins itself works. I clearly have to first narrow down my acceptable funding options before choosing a seller. But I'm daunted by the plethora of funding options, and I don't feel I have enough information to make an informed decision. For example, with MoneyGram, the only way I can see to determine what my ACTUAL costs are to send the funds is to do a transaction and see what they charge. LOL! There has to be a better way...

It seems to me you could also consider using an exchange. Depending on where you are (Europe? US?) there are probably some good options to get coins for a fair price.

[tolan77]

If only you could go to the Wells Fargo (if bank attached to ATM) and say "hey, the person who gave me this counterfeit bill said he got it from this ATM"...

I doubt he was careless enough to even walk in front of that camera. If he was, you would get his identity this way. Fingerprints on the bill? Not sure if police would check for fingerprints but in a criminal case, he would have bad luck after actually using the ATM.

Do you think he got the fake bills from the machine? I doubt that. He probably only got part of the cash from the machine to make the seller think all bills were from the machine, decreasing the likelyhood he would check them thoroughly.

well, if he got it from an ATM, chances are 100% his identity can be pinned to one of 3 persons with only the timestamp of the bitcoin transaction and some thinking of when and how things happened. Sure, the ATM was a cover up to hide the fake bills but if I were him I wouldn't have gone near the ATM as banks and ATMs are full of cameras and with your card in the machine, your ID should be checked.

In retrospect looking at the evidence it's highly likely he didn't get the bills from the atm and instead slipped them in the stack. However since I didn't check at the time I can't prove anything so I give the buyer the benefit of the doubt.Honestly since it was only 40$ I don't really care enough to try to press charges I just kindof took it as a lesson learned.I just left some questionable feedback to encourage other sellers to check their bills and bought a 15$ counterfeit pen with a uv light. Already did a deal today and the buyer had no problems with me doing a quick mark check on the bills it takes no time and isn't expensive.

[giszmo]

In retrospect looking at the evidence it's highly likely he didn't get the bills from the atm and instead slipped them in the stack. However since I didn't check at the time I can't prove anything so I give the buyer the benefit of the doubt.Honestly since it was only 40$ I don't really care enough to try to press charges I just kindof took it as a lesson learned.I just left some questionable feedback to encourage other sellers to check their bills and bought a 15$ counterfeit pen with a uv light. Already did a deal today and the buyer had no problems with me doing a quick mark check on the bills it takes no time and isn't expensive.

Impressive! So the scammer risked years in prison for $20? Tough shit.
It's ironic how we all know way better how to trust a bitcoin than how to trust a paper bill, yet everybody else trusts paper way more than our funny money.

[molecular]

In retrospect looking at the evidence it's highly likely he didn't get the bills from the atm and instead slipped them in the stack. However since I didn't check at the time I can't prove anything so I give the buyer the benefit of the doubt.Honestly since it was only 40$ I don't really care enough to try to press charges I just kindof took it as a lesson learned.I just left some questionable feedback to encourage other sellers to check their bills and bought a 15$ counterfeit pen with a uv light. Already did a deal today and the buyer had no problems with me doing a quick mark check on the bills it takes no time and isn't expensive.

Impressive! So the scammer risked years in prison for $20? Tough shit.
It's ironic how we all know way better how to trust a bitcoin than how to trust a paper bill, yet everybody else trusts paper way more than our funny money.

Trust in what sense? I think most noobs even trust bitcoin in the sense that "we" can't just print up more money. It's pretty easy to build that trust because everyone should be able to see that this would've happened a long time ago if it was possible.

Everyone (including us) has some "trust issues" when it comes to bitcoin holding its value in the future, though. This is also easy to understand by looking at an exchange rate chart.

[tolan77]

In retrospect looking at the evidence it's highly likely he didn't get the bills from the atm and instead slipped them in the stack. However since I didn't check at the time I can't prove anything so I give the buyer the benefit of the doubt.Honestly since it was only 40$ I don't really care enough to try to press charges I just kindof took it as a lesson learned.I just left some questionable feedback to encourage other sellers to check their bills and bought a 15$ counterfeit pen with a uv light. Already did a deal today and the buyer had no problems with me doing a quick mark check on the bills it takes no time and isn't expensive.

Impressive! So the scammer risked years in prison for $20? Tough shit.
It's ironic how we all know way better how to trust a bitcoin than how to trust a paper bill, yet everybody else trusts paper way more than our funny money.

It was quite an odd encounter.Was a father and son, the son was the one interested and wanting to buy bitcoin and the father was the one who got the money/slipped the 2 counterfeit bills in. I definitely got a lesson in how to trust paper money though so now hopefully I can tell the real money as easily as I can see double spends on blockchain.info. If anybody else is curious and was lacking in the information like I was here's some info http://www.secretservice.gov/KnowYourMoneyApril08.pdf . I got a detector pen with a uv light built in. So the marker detects the silly counterfeits printed at home and the UV light shows the missing security strip in the more convincing counterfeits.

Trust in what sense? I think most noobs even trust bitcoin in the sense that "we" can't just print up more money. It's pretty easy to build that trust because everyone should be able to see that this would've happened a long time ago if it was possible.

Everyone (including us) has some "trust issues" when it comes to bitcoin holding its value in the future, though. This is also easy to understand by looking at an exchange rate chart.

I think he was referring to the fact that we all know how to trust a bitcoin transaction where as most people don't know how to  verify and trust a dollar transaction yet they trust it implicitly more than any bitcoin transaction.

[giszmo]

Trust in what sense? I think most noobs even trust bitcoin in the sense that "we" can't just print up more money. It's pretty easy to build that trust because everyone should be able to see that this would've happened a long time ago if it was possible.

Everyone (including us) has some "trust issues" when it comes to bitcoin holding its value in the future, though. This is also easy to understand by looking at an exchange rate chart.

I think he was referring to the fact that we all know how to trust a bitcoin transaction where as most people don't know how to  verify and trust a dollar transaction yet they trust it implicity more than any bitcoin transaction.

Yes. Thanx.

[molecular]

Trust in what sense? I think most noobs even trust bitcoin in the sense that "we" can't just print up more money. It's pretty easy to build that trust because everyone should be able to see that this would've happened a long time ago if it was possible.

Everyone (including us) has some "trust issues" when it comes to bitcoin holding its value in the future, though. This is also easy to understand by looking at an exchange rate chart.

I think he was referring to the fact that we all know how to trust a bitcoin transaction where as most people don't know how to  verify and trust a dollar transaction yet they trust it implicity more than any bitcoin transaction.

Yes. Thanx.

I see.

[kangasbros]

Cheap & working counterfeit money checker: http://dx.com/p/counterfeit-fake-money-bank-note-detector-pen-uv-light-tester-purple-3-x-lr1130-68359

[Yurock]

Cheap & working counterfeit money checker: http://dx.com/p/counterfeit-fake-money-bank-note-detector-pen-uv-light-tester-purple-3-x-lr1130-68359

Bitcoin accepted?

[molecular]

I know this has been talked about before but I will bring it up again:

I would really really love to see some kind of feature that would allow the price (by formula) to remain variable until the time when the physical meeting takes place.

Fixing a price days ahead of time will always leave one party disgruntled. It helps noone. It also increases the occurence of people just not showing up greatly. Adjusting the amount of fiat cash involves cumbesome calculations (I did this today).

Allowing the price (amount of coins to be transacted) to adjust by pricing formula would solve all these problems.

Let me add that it would probably make me actually use the transaction feature (instead of avoiding it like now, telling people to bring a wallet and do everything on the spot, which is cumbersome and can lead to misunderstandings) and therefore generate revenue for the site (currently the site has close to no revenue from me).

Are there any problems with this approach I'm missing? I don't see any substantial drawbacks of offering this, only advantages.

[justusranvier]

I know this has been talked about before but I will bring it up again:

I would really really love to see some kind of feature that would allow the price (by formula) to remain variable until the time when the physical meeting takes place.

Fixing a price days ahead of time will always leave one party disgruntled. It helps noone. It also increases the occurence of people just not showing up greatly. Adjusting the amount of fiat cash involves cumbesome calculations (I did this today).

That would be nice, although I've been able to avoid the problem by not accepting orders that can not be completed within a few hours.

If somebody opens a contact and we can't meet right away I just ask them to close the order and open a new one immediately before we agree to meet. It also helps to exchange cell phone numbers after initial contact to help coordinate that.

[Stephen Gornick]

I noticed 2 of the bills were fake! Now since I didn't check during the transaction I can't prove whether or not the buyer was complicit and had any knowledge of these fake bills

Here's a guide:

U.S. Secret Service Know Your Money
 - http://www.secretservice.gov/know_your_money.shtml

Counterfeit Bills A Risk For Local Bitcoin Trading
 - http://bitcoinmoney.com/post/36244271879

[Yurock]

I would really really love to see some kind of feature that would allow the price (by formula) to remain variable until the time when the physical meeting takes place.

Allow negotiations before fixing the amount and the price. The taker contacts the advertiser; parties discuss an approximate amount and details of the deal; one of parties enters the exact amount, and the price is fixed at that time. If both parties are OK with it, they proceed to the deal.

[cardcomm]

Hello,

I've just started looking at LocalBitcoins.com for an online buy funded from within the US. I'm having a little trouble sorting through and understanding all the available funding options, and their costs. I see many funding options listed - including OKPay, MoneyGram, Western Union, bank transfers from specific banks, etc.

Is there somewhere I can easily find out more about the cost and restrictions of each funding option, without researching each one individually? I'm a little overwhelmed by the funding options. I've tried doing the research myself, but some of the funding options (like MoneyGram) offer different services at different fees. I'm not sure even which service is correct.

Sorry for the noob question, and thanks in advance for any helpful response

Hi Cardcomm

yeah, a noob question it is but those are the most valuable for the devs as most noobs don't dare to ask and so the service ends up only being used by the experience users that flood the devs with more expert features making the noob experience even worse although more and more features get accomplished, so thanks again. We were all noobs at some point.

(terms made up by me. people please correct me if there are better names for these types of exchanges)
There are floating exchanges (the exchange allows you to make arbitrary buy and sell offers and the exchange matches them, having all the coins and $$ under their control. MtGox is one of them), market maker exchanges (the exchange is basically just one big market maker that offers a buy and a sell price that it adjusts much slower than some floating exchange, so you can buy and sell at a price at display) and there are "social" exchanges that facilitate the process of other people willing to exchange, but that don't actually hold your money. Most prominent example historically would be the OTC IRC where the first "exchange" established. These exchanges keep track of the reputation of traders and help you find out who you can trade with based on the payment methods available to you. Localbitcoins opted to target more for the in person exchange where you deal with cash but due to demand, now all the classical methods that you mentioned are offered by its users as well. Localbitcoins is agnostic to the payment option though. It only distinguishes between cash and electronic in that cash is advertised to your proximity and electronic to all within your currency independent of distance. Therefore Localbitcoins has no core interest in providing fee infos as neither can it know all the details of MPesa, Chinese wire transfer, Australian food tokens or whatnot people decide to use, nor the fees the advertiser is willing to cover. Therefore you have to read the single advertisements and judge for yourself if that trader is trustworthy and if you like the payment method. It is much more heterogeneous than MtGox for example but therefore also has a strength.

Thanks for all the responses.

I should have made it clear in my OP that I'm unable to do a face-to-face meet up to buy bitcoins. I realized that is what the site was originally designed for, but that won't work for me personally. So it's only the online purchase options that I'm interested in.

I also understand that LocalBitcoins really has no stake in how I pay, and it's up to the individual seller to set their method of payment, and for me to choose a seller based on their feedback, funding methods, etc.

The question arises when I try and determine the best (fastest/cheapest) funding method. Looking just at MoneyGram alone, there is a pretty complex fees schedule based on where you pay, where the payment recipient lives, and how fast you want the payment delivered. Those are just some of the variable for ONE of the possible payment options.

I believe I have a good understanding of bitcoin trading and how LocalBitcoins itself works. I clearly have to first narrow down my acceptable funding options before choosing a seller. But I'm daunted by the plethora of funding options, and I don't feel I have enough information to make an informed decision. For example, with MoneyGram, the only way I can see to determine what my ACTUAL costs are to send the funds is to do a transaction and see what they charge. LOL! There has to be a better way...

It seems to me you could also consider using an exchange. Depending on where you are (Europe? US?) there are probably some good options to get coins for a fair price.

I'm in the US, as stated. Unfortunately, there are no exchanges that I'm aware of that allow funding from the US without significant delays and fees. Hence my interest in Localbitcoins.

I'm fairly determined and literate. Yet I find the funding options sufficiently overwhelming that I have yet to do a transaction on Localbitcoins. I guess I just need to jump in and  semi-blindly try some of the options, and figure out the fees by trial and error. I guess it would build my "reputation" as well.

I long for a future where purchasing bitcoins will be as easy as getting change for a $100.   hahaha

[justusranvier]

I'm in the US, as stated. Unfortunately, there are no exchanges that I'm aware of that allow funding from the US without significant delays and fees. Hence my interest in Localbitcoins.

I'm fairly determined and literate. Yet I find the funding options sufficiently overwhelming that I have yet to do a transaction on Localbitcoins. I guess I just need to jump in and  semi-blindly try some of the options, and figure out the fees by trial and error. I guess it would build my "reputation" as well.

I long for a future where purchasing bitcoins will be as easy as getting change for a $100.   hahaha

If you can't do face-to-face purchases, the easiest online method would probably be to load dollars into a Dwolla account and buy that way. I know of at least one reliable seller on Localbitcoins who accept Dwolla payments.

Or you could take the time to get fully verified on CampBX and buy it that way.

[chrisrico]

I'm in the US, as stated. Unfortunately, there are no exchanges that I'm aware of that allow funding from the US without significant delays and fees. Hence my interest in Localbitcoins.

I'm fairly determined and literate. Yet I find the funding options sufficiently overwhelming that I have yet to do a transaction on Localbitcoins. I guess I just need to jump in and  semi-blindly try some of the options, and figure out the fees by trial and error. I guess it would build my "reputation" as well.

I long for a future where purchasing bitcoins will be as easy as getting change for a $100.   hahaha

If you link your bank account to Coinbase, wait a month, and fill out some personal information, you can get bitcoins at little to no fee instantly.

[kangasbros]

I know this has been talked about before but I will bring it up again:

I would really really love to see some kind of feature that would allow the price (by formula) to remain variable until the time when the physical meeting takes place.

Fixing a price days ahead of time will always leave one party disgruntled. It helps noone. It also increases the occurence of people just not showing up greatly. Adjusting the amount of fiat cash involves cumbesome calculations (I did this today).

Allowing the price (amount of coins to be transacted) to adjust by pricing formula would solve all these problems.

Let me add that it would probably make me actually use the transaction feature (instead of avoiding it like now, telling people to bring a wallet and do everything on the spot, which is cumbersome and can lead to misunderstandings) and therefore generate revenue for the site (currently the site has close to no revenue from me).

Are there any problems with this approach I'm missing? I don't see any substantial drawbacks of offering this, only advantages.

The only problem is our current dev resources, which are limited. But I can promise you that the floating feature is coming.

[Yurock]

the easiest online method would probably be to load dollars into a Dwolla account and buy that way

There is a report that Dwolla screwed a Bitcoin user: http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1h9iyv/psa_dwolla_worse_than_paypal_for_accepting/

And this is from new Dwolla TOS:

You understand and agree that You will not engage in the following activities:

    Use of the Dwolla System, without Dwolla's written consent, to operate or engage in any business regulated by FinCEN, including the money service business;
    Use of the Dwolla System without registering as a money services business if required by FinCEN's March 18, 2013 Guidance entitled "Application of FinCEN's Regulations to Persons Administering, Exchanging, or Using Virtual Currencies" (FIN-2013-G0001);
    Act as a marketplace and/or exchange for virtual currency products without Dwolla's prior written consent, and FinCEN registration if applicable;

[justusranvier]

the easiest online method would probably be to load dollars into a Dwolla account and buy that way

There is a report that Dwolla screwed a Bitcoin user: http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1h9iyv/psa_dwolla_worse_than_paypal_for_accepting/

And this is from new Dwolla TOS:

You understand and agree that You will not engage in the following activities:

    Use of the Dwolla System, without Dwolla's written consent, to operate or engage in any business regulated by FinCEN, including the money service business;
    Use of the Dwolla System without registering as a money services business if required by FinCEN's March 18, 2013 Guidance entitled "Application of FinCEN's Regulations to Persons Administering, Exchanging, or Using Virtual Currencies" (FIN-2013-G0001);
    Act as a marketplace and/or exchange for virtual currency products without Dwolla's prior written consent, and FinCEN registration if applicable;

I didn't say there was zero risk involved, but mostly the risk on the seller's side, not the buyer's.