bitZino - Bitcoin Casino - Blackjack, Roulette, 3 Card Poker, Slots and more!

[libertaad]

Currently the max bet in blackjack is 25 BTC.

That's pretty amazing.  That's around $3000.  With splits and doubles I expect you've seen some huge hands.

We've definitely seen a fair share of big hands! Our max bet in Roulette is 100 BTC, so we see some large wagers there as well.

That's the nice thing about keeping everything in BTC As the purchasing power of bitcoin rises, so do our effective limits.

It boggles my mind to think about the bankroll required to offer limits that high.

Well, if you look here: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?PHPSESSID=63jvb7jar34mtdefttso41v715&topic=75883.0 you can see that some gambling games offer unlimited max bet )

I don't know of anyone that actually offers unlimited bet sizes. If they do this, they're basically guaranteeing that the house will eventually go broke.

I wrote a post up earlier in this thread which details how we calculate what we set our maximum bet size to, based on the risk-of-ruin: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=87656.msg1145478#msg1145478

There's a post somewhere in this thread about bitZino's analysis of what max bet they can safely offer.  I don't think it talks about their bankroll specifically but it may be possible to infer a ballpark amount based on their current maximum bets.  I'll link to the post if I find it.

See the above link - I think that's what you're referring to!

[1713585542]

1713585542

[dooglus]

See the above link - I think that's what you're referring to!

Indeed.  I just dug it out myself and was about to post it.  I should have checked this end of the thread first!  Funny how I was telling IveBeenBit about the post when it was a reply to him the first time around too...

[dooglus]

I don't think it talks about their bankroll specifically but it may be possible to infer a ballpark amount based on their current maximum bets.

I think it is.  Here's what he said, followed by some probably very inaccurate guesses. 

This chart indicates that if a casino wants to have a less than 0.001% risk of ruin, they must have a bankroll of more than 8000x the maximum bet on a single number.

[...]

0.001% is small, but it's not infinitesimal. In order to make our true risk of ruin truly infinitesimal, we have the ability to lower the maximum bet as necessary. We prefer not to rely on this mechanic though, which is why we shoot for a very low risk of ruin without it.

The max bet on a single number in roulette is 5 BTC.  To have less than a 0.001% risk of ruin the house would need to have 8000 times that, ie. 40k BTC.

They aim for "very low risk of ruin".  And "0.001% is small".  Does that mean they have more than 8000x, since they want very small, but 0.0001% is only small?

Either way, 40k BTC seems a reasonable ballpark figure.

I'm not sure if you would need 40k for each game you offer.  I don't think so though.  If you ran a roulette game where everyone had to bet on '1' all the time, you'd still need 40k BTC to achieve the same risk of ruin.  Then you could run another game where everyone bet on '2', and not need an extra 40k BTC to be safe.  So let's say they have a 40k float.

libertaad registered at the forums in December 2011 when BTC were trading below $4 each.  Even in June 2012 when bitZino launched they were still only around $5 each.  40k BTC then would have cost around $200k, but it's likely the casino has built up its bankroll over the time it has been running.  The max bets have grown over time, so they probably started with a lot less than that.

Like I said, I'm just guessing based roughly on what the risk-of-ruin post said.

[IveBeenBit]

Funny you mention all that, Dooglus, because I was running very similar calculations in my head when I re-read Libertaad's "bankroll" post.

libertaad registered at the forums in December 2011 when BTC were trading below $4 each.  Even in June 2012 when bitZino launched they were still only around $5 each.  40k BTC then would have cost around $200k, but it's likely the casino has built up its bankroll over the time it has been running.  The max bets have grown over time, so they probably started with a lot less than that.

I really can't see someone putting that much money into a Bitcoin startup that early in the BTC revolution. My guess is that Libertaad is one of Bitcoin's very early adopters who mined or bought a bunch of coins when they were a few cents per piece, or that he's partnered with such a person. Anyone want to bet? 

[libertaad]

We have just launched a new game, 3 Card Poker!





Three Card Poker is a twist on classic poker, where you and the dealer are each dealt three cards, and your goal is to beat the dealer. There's also an exciting secondary Pairplus game, which you can play at the same time. If you'd like more details on how to play, we've written up detailed instructions, which you can access by clicking on the "Rules" dropdown on the upper-left of the table, and clicking the "How to play >" link.

We decided to build this game purely because our users requested it. If you have any more suggestions about what to build next, or any other feedback, please let us know. We listen!

[dooglus]

We decided to build this game purely because our users requested it. If you have any more suggestions about what to build next, or any other feedback, please let us know. We listen!

That's pretty slick.  I can't find much to bitch about.  

The only thing I'd say is maybe only mention any kickers that are relevant.  Who cares that I have a 6 and 2 kicker when my A high beat his K high?

[🏰 TradeFortress 🏰]

Love the 3 card poker!

[libertaad]

That's pretty slick.  I can't find much to bitch about. 

The only thing I'm say is maybe only mention any kickers that are relevant.  Who cares that I have a 6 and 2 kicker when my A high beat his K high?

Glad you like it!

I like your idea to not mention the irrelevant kickers. There's already a lot of text on the screen, so removing the unnecessary stuff will make it easier to parse what's going on. We'll implement this!

Love the 3 card poker!

Thanks!

[navaman]

I like it a  lot, very smooth.  Just some Bitcoins now...

[dooglus]

Maybe it's worth mentioning in the rules what a 'mini royal' is.  I didn't know, and had to look it up.

Apparently, "A Mini Royal is a suited AKQ".  Plausibly it could have included suited KQJ and suited QJT, given that a regular royal is suited AKQJT.

It looks like you've picked the most favourable paytables listed on wizardofodds.com for your game.  I see they mention a variant where the player wins in the event of a tie, which gives about 0.13% less edge to the house.  If you're looking to give better odds while still offering a vaguely standard game, that might be something to consider?  But probably three card poker is rare enough in the Bitcoin world that you don't need to compete that hard.

[IveBeenBit]

I'm really happy to see a new game added! I like the ability to do "microgambling" at your site to learn new games so I'll know how to play different games when I find myself in a real casino.

Also...my first hand at 3 card poker and I was dealt a straight flush. Am I lucky, or is it rigged to get me hooked? 

[dooglus]

I'm really happy to see a new game added! I like the ability to do "microgambling" at your site to learn new games so I'll know how to play different games when I find myself in a real casino.

Also...my first hand at 3 card poker and I was dealt a straight flush. Am I lucky, or is it rigged to get me hooked? 

My girlfriend won over 32 BTC on one of her first hands of bitZino video poker for a 40 mBTC bet.  If it's rigged they're doing it wrong, 'cos she's hardly been back since, having made out like a bandit and sold them all for the princely sum of $30 each.  Doh.

[libertaad]

I like it a  lot, very smooth.  Just some Bitcoins now...

I'm glad you like it!

I'm really happy to see a new game added! I like the ability to do "microgambling" at your site to learn new games so I'll know how to play different games when I find myself in a real casino.

Also...my first hand at 3 card poker and I was dealt a straight flush. Am I lucky, or is it rigged to get me hooked?  

I'm glad you're having fun! Sounds like you got quite lucky We definitely don't manipulate any hands ever. Our 3 Card Poker game is provably fair just like all our other games!

Maybe it's worth mentioning in the rules what a 'mini royal' is.  I didn't know, and had to look it up.

Apparently, "A Mini Royal is a suited AKQ".  Plausibly it could have included suited KQJ and suited QJT, given that a regular royal is suited AKQJT.

Good call. We've added this clarification to the rules.

It looks like you've picked the most favourable paytables listed on wizardofodds.com for your game.  I see they mention a variant where the player wins in the event of a tie, which gives about 0.13% less edge to the house.  If you're looking to give better odds while still offering a vaguely standard game, that might be something to consider?  But probably three card poker is rare enough in the Bitcoin world that you don't need to compete that hard.

Ok, you convinced us We've updated our rules so that ties go to the player.

We also updated how kickers are displayed, so that only relevant kickers are shown. I've gone in and added a 0.1 BTC comp to your account, Dooglus, to thank you for all the feedback. Keep it coming!

[dooglus]

Ok, you convinced us We've updated our rules so that ties go to the player.

We also updated how kickers are displayed, so that only relevant kickers are shown. I've gone in and added a 0.1 BTC comp to your account, Dooglus, to thank you for all the feedback. Keep it coming!

Thanks a lot for the comp.  I think the way the hands are described looks better now.  I wonder if it would be helpful (for new players, especially) if you displayed the hand description before they act.  That way you remove any confusion about whether A23 is a straight or not, for example - if it says "straight" under it, it's a straight.

I'm helping mem update his gambling list.  The plan is to list games along with the max bet and house edge so players can easily compare them.  Do you have 'official' figures for the house edges on the games you offer that you'd like listed?  I'm thinking that in pretty much every case your games offer the lowest edge and highest max bet of all the bitcoin gaming sites (in part due to my nagging ).

[libertaad]

I wonder if it would be helpful (for new players, especially) if you displayed the hand description before they act.  That way you remove any confusion about whether A23 is a straight or not, for example - if it says "straight" under it, it's a straight.

This is a good suggestion. We've went ahead and implemented it.

I'm helping mem update his gambling list.  The plan is to list games along with the max bet and house edge so players can easily compare them.  Do you have 'official' figures for the house edges on the games you offer that you'd like listed?  I'm thinking that in pretty much every case your games offer the lowest edge and highest max bet of all the bitcoin gaming sites (in part due to my nagging ).

Cool! I'll list out all our games' max bet and house edge below:

Blackjack:
Max bet: 25 BTC
House edge: 0.39759%

Craps:
Max bet: 5 BTC per wager-type
House edge: 0.273%-2.778%. (Varies by wager-type. We've adjusted our rules from the standard payouts so that all wagers have less than 3% house edge.)

Roulette:
Max bet: 100 BTC overall, 5 BTC per number
House edge: 2.70%

Slots:
Max bet: 2 BTC per line (10 BTC overall)
House edge: 0.964%

3 Card Poker:
Max bet: 25 BTC
House edge (Pairplus): 2.14%
House edge (Ante): 3.15%

Video Poker:
Max bet: 2 BTC
House edge (Jacks or better): 0.456096%
House edge (Tens or better): 0.8612%
House edge (Deuces wild): 0.5821%
House edge (Bonus poker): 0.834%
House edge (Double Bonus Poker): 0.5169%
House edge (Dbl Dbl Bonus Poker): 0.5368%

The min bet for all our games is 1 μBTC (0.000001 BTC).

Hope that helps!

[dooglus]

Cool! I'll list out all our games' max bet and house edge below:

Thanks.

3 Card Poker:
Max bet: 25 BTC
House edge (Pairplus): 2.14%
House edge (Ante): 3.28%

Wasn't the edge 3.28% before you added the "player wins ties" rule?  I'd expect it to drop a little with that change.

some casinos let ties go to the player. The effect of this rule lowers the house edge in the "full pay" bonus table 1 above from 3.37% to 3.24%.

[Ignas24]

I want to suggest one thing. It would be good if there would be a counter, which would show how much you won/lost per day. Ofcource you can calculate yourself by watching a balance, but this way would be more convenient for the player. 

[libertaad]

3 Card Poker:
Max bet: 25 BTC
House edge (Pairplus): 2.14%
House edge (Ante): 3.28%

Wasn't the edge 3.28% before you added the "player wins ties" rule?  I'd expect it to drop a little with that change.

Ah, good call! That is the old figure. The true house edge for the Ante bet in our 3 Card Poker is 3.15%. I have also gone and edited the previous post so that it's correct.

I want to suggest one thing. It would be good if there would be a counter, which would show how much you won/lost per day. Ofcource you can calculate yourself by watching a balance, but this way would be more convenient for the player. 

One way to get your win/loss is that you are always welcome to reach out to our support (https://bitzino.com/support) and request a hand-history log. One thing we've been thinking about is automating the hand-history report, so that you don't need to reach out to support in order to access it. This would also serve to make it easy for you to see your win/loss for a day.

[dooglus]

I'm running out of things to complain about again.  Just two small niggles:

I'd like to be able to adjust my bet size for the next game while "folding" the current game.  It takes long enough to fold with my slow internet connection that I often find myself hovering over the bet size adjustment buttons waiting for them to become active again.  They could be activated client-side before sending the 'fold' message to the server I expect?

Also, I'm used to being able to click the '1/2' button over and over to reset the bet to 1.  That's how it works on blackjack; clicking 1/2 when the bet is 1 leaves it at 1.  But in three card poker half of 1 is 0.  (And twice 0 is 1).  I think I'd prefer half 1 to be 1.  I can always used the '-' button if I want to go from 1 to 0.  Then it's more consistent across the games.

[libertaad]

I'm running out of things to complain about again.  Just two small niggles:

I'd like to be able to adjust my bet size for the next game while "folding" the current game.  It takes long enough to fold with my slow internet connection that I often find myself hovering over the bet size adjustment buttons waiting for them to become active again.  They could be activated client-side before sending the 'fold' message to the server I expect?

Thanks for always testing with slow internet! I think for now, we are going to not make this change though. We implemented this change internally, but then saw that it can see it lead to confusion about exactly what hand you're changing the bet size for (especially if you're only somewhat paying attention while you play). Keeping the bet boxes disabled until the next hand has officially started avoids this confusion, and it is also consistent with our other games.

Also, I'm used to being able to click the '1/2' button over and over to reset the bet to 1.  That's how it works on blackjack; clicking 1/2 when the bet is 1 leaves it at 1.  But in three card poker half of 1 is 0.  (And twice 0 is 1).  I think I'd prefer half 1 to be 1.  I can always used the '-' button if I want to go from 1 to 0.  Then it's more consistent across the games.

This is a good suggestion! We have went ahead and implemented this change.

Thanks, Dooglus, for the continued help in improving our product! I've comped your account with another 0.1 BTC. As always, let us know any more feedback you have!