Bitcoin Forum

Have you not received what you have paid for from Butterfly Labs?

As you've probably seen in the thread most, if not all requests are being rejected at this point but feel free to give it a shot.  Please note, I will not be replying to PM's asking for help/additional information at this point.  All of the advice I can provide is in this post.

The two email addresses below are for a paypal exec and exec escalation team that you can reach out to that has resulted in getting quite a few of us refunds.

Email: david.marcus@paypal.com AND executiveoffice@paypal.com

Make sure you explain the situation with BFL talking about their missed ship dates, still cannot provide ship dates and will not provide a refund although they have not shipped the product, etc.  Also include the information about your PayPal transaction and a phone number you can be reached at.  

Some good advice from OleOle who recently received a refund.

If you receive the standard 45 day notice from PayPal READ THIS: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=295187.msg3350757#msg3350757

File a complaint with the FTC:

# Bitcointalk Users Who Have Received Refunds:  98(that I am aware of)

If you have obtained a refund with this information and wish to tip it is appreciated (but of course not required) and I thank you in advance. Addresses can be found in my signature or you can shoot me a PM.

Please Note: This is a self-moderated thread.  I will remove any posts I feel are off topic or uncalled for as requested by the mod.  

Even though I don't have a stake in the mess that is BFL, I thank you for the service you provide. This community needs more spirit like yours.

Keep up the good work!

Just want to say that this method works and there is nothing suspicious about how lajz99 is vetting his instructions. It will make sense once you get the PM. I got my refund in 6 hours and was impressed by the professionalism of PayPal.

BFL are now delivering products that are too late to be anywhere as useful as they would have been if they shipped them before all the Avalon derived units and Bitfury systems, not to mention the imminent KNC onslaught. BFL have made repeated false promises/estimates/lies. Your refund is entirely justified. I recommend doing it.

For those who want to see the reviews of people whom Lajz99 has helped in his previous thread (before it got derailed):

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=291205.0

i did his method late last week, and within 48hrs got an email saying my purchase/payment was cancelled and reversed, with my money back in the paypal account!

any help for TH paypal buyers?

Shoot me a message and let's give it a shot!

Worked for me, extremely fast too, thanks again lajz99!

Glad to hear it worked out for you!

And thank you again to those who have sent tips!  I don't always know who you are, but do know that I appreciate it!

Ok just wanted to say this is legit! Funny thing is I went this route last week or maybe more and nothing came of it. After shooting the PM he gave me an additional email addy at paypal that I did not have previously. this second email is golden. I just received this email from paypal...


Dear Ms. Laura ...,

Thank you for reaching out to PayPal regarding your concerns with your Butterfly Lab transactions. We take situations like this very seriously and are pleased to inform you we have been in direct communication with Butterfly Labs and your payment has been refunded.

If your original payment was funded with a credit card, the refund will be returned to your credit card. If you funded the payment via your bank account or PayPal balance, the funds will be returned to your PayPal balance.

Thank you for being a valued customer!

Sincerely,
Timothy
PayPal

NICE!  Not only is the number of refunds increasing but the $ value is AMAZING!  Glad to see people getting those large orders taken care of.

+1 this guy is awesome. Managed to get a refund within less than 24 hours!

BFL Jallies are useless anyway :P

Thank you again!

Thank you for your PM, obviously this is no help for me and others who payed by bank TX/ BTC .

What we really need here now is someone with a legal perspective on consumer rights within the US to provide advice and a way forward for those remaining.

There has to be someone in this forum with such a contact.  Even if they acted on a 10 % commission fee they could do well.  :o

@Josh  The game is almost up my friend  ;) RIP Butterfly Labs
http://mexicotoday.org/sites/mexicotoday.org/files/%21CCwwsv%21%21mk%7E%24%28KGrHqMOKisE0qG%28%28CzpBNMNpf%296O%21%7E%7E_35.jpg?1351271896

Another +1 refund received within hours - amazing... no questions asked just reversed immediately.

I have free power and thus would still like my gear in a timely fashion. I have received the info via PM as to how to get the virtually instant PP refund and have notified BFL that they have until September 23rd to ship or I will initiate the refund process with PP...... what did BFL do? Abbey sent me a form email stating all sales are final etc etc.....

Let's be clear, I WANT my gear - I want it by the end of September as this is when BFL has stated numerous times that my orders would be shipped. Josh even revised the date for backlog clearance to the end of April and all my orders are prior to the end of March..... I'll still wait another week before I send the email to PP just to be sure that the dead horse is indeed beaten to the utter pulp it would appear to be from a distance...... And should the virtually inevitable outcome happen that I get my refund I will send my tip to the OP and include a note on the transaction to be stored forever in the blockchain that I refunded BFL orders #### from PP thanks to him

Good email but FYI for anyone else I just wrote a couple of lines short and sweet and it refunded quickly. I honestly think any mention of Bfl and they instantly refund they are that sick of them

It worked for me although it took 5 days to get money back on my account which doesnt really matter
when one has been waiting for months or years.

Thank you lajz99


https://blockchain.info/tx/61c84a29b44db1c0ebe2480142d4a24fee0cfd957b0405fade00ad849adc3ba5

H8yYdCUN484Wd19WYr1Sc5r71Rk93zJxFITpcBKJAvC3jQ2YDhImTqxtiK+QPImG3u1xKD7XWmhsjy3/RQW/A2w=

Thank lajz99 and your tip on way to your LTC wall.

Wow, this method works incredibly well. I got a refund for my $1,333 order within 10 hours. I really appreciate your help lajz99. Thank you so much!

I sent you a little tip for your help: e9d309c578c52ff5e4b2eceeffae4aacacd07c6988d2bea6f7b4db7eaacd6e4e

Dwayne

Holy hell guys...I just responded to 70+ requests for information and have at least 6 responses confirming refunds to add to the list.

I've gotta do a little work (yea, I've got a grown up job), but will respond to any more requests that come in around lunch time.  Keep em coming!!!

Glad to hear you are earning a nice side income through "refund consulting" tips.  ;D  ;D  ;D

I will say although I have received quite a few tips, this has also turned out to be quite time consuming so they are greatly appreciated.  At this point I'm responding to at LEAST 100 messages/day, some of them I can send a standard response to, others have questions that require a personal touch and with the 26 second delay to send messages it takes quite a bit of time out of my day. 

It's all for a good cause though which is why I do it!

You are a hero.

https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQ-G0O7TSK1cNvo4tyAP_zOQC_VfJsrILRrGbPDgl1AZPO_GIXVaw

and

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-qY_j3zjW5a4/TY8xdYkKZAI/AAAAAAAAAHs/lS34m5idgxQ/s400/thank-animation.gif

Full Refund received thanks for answering my PM's and helping everyone. It is so great that BFL is not going to get over on all these people.
Thank you so much sincerely.!

Will be sending tip without question just moving a few things around waiting for confirmations ATM.

Refund confirmed!

PayPal was not helping me at all!
I used a PayPal bank transfer so I couldn't dispute with my CC.

One email and 8 hours later, I've been completely refunded over $800.

Thanks for posting this thread!

Awesome, another one added to the list!!

here here! this method works and is very simple :)

$300 for a jally wasn't a big hole in my pocket, but by the time it delivered i bet i could buy one on ebay for <$300 and never make more than $100 from mining!

So after my own failed attempts this definitely works.


"Dear xxxxxx,


Thank you for reaching out to PayPal regarding your concerns with your Butterfly Lab transactions.  We take situations like this very seriously and are pleased to inform you we have been in direct communication with Butterfly Labs and your payment(s) has been refunded.
 

If your original payment(s) was funded with a credit card, the refund will be returned to your credit card.  If you funded the payment(s) via your bank account or PayPal balance, the funds will be returned to your PayPal balance.

 
Thank you for being a valued customer!

 

Sincerely,

PayPal"

As Promised, this should be stickied...

https://blockchain.info/tx/387880eff2bf517bec792d5c4004e2a56c2544aba1068fb2e51e1c461c31e2b0

Greatly appreciated and glad it worked out for you!!

Add me to that list as well! just got email from paypal saying a refund is on its way :)

Thanks for the help, appreciate that a lot!

#41!  Awesome!   ;D

I wonder if BFL ship 41 complete orders in 2 days  ::) You may inadvertently be helping me out...  ;D

Add me to the list! Started the process this morning and 12 hours later had the refund in my PayPal account. Much thanks!

Looks like I'm #43 then. It took about 24 hours, but I too got the same notice:

"Dear Mr. [redacted],
 
Thank you for reaching out to PayPal regarding your concerns with your Butterfly Lab transactions.  We take situations like this very seriously and are pleased to inform you we have been in direct communication with Butterfly Labs and your payment has been refunded.
 
If your original payment was funded with a credit card, the refund will be returned to your credit card.  If you funded the payment via your bank account or PayPal balance, the funds will be returned to your PayPal balance.
 
Thank you for being a valued customer!
 
Sincerely,
PayPal"

Hooray!

You're number 44!! (I got some PM's as well)

Glad to hear things are going so smoothly for everyone.

... thanx a lot got a refund ... in 24h ... :-)

All due respect to Lajz99 and also PayPal for their excellent customer service (knew I used them for a reason..).

thank you very much! i confirm getting refund within 17 hours. though now gotta talk to my bank to get $500 upgrade back i sent via international wire. i wish we had a reliable and secure middleman in bitcoin world to do transactions with. if JOHN K opens up a website ill sign up straight away.

Paypal emailed me today to let me know my refund is on the way!

@lajz99 - Thanks for your help! A donation is headed your way.

Thanks a lot. Worked Like a charm. Positive response in few hours.

Wow, a whole slew of new refunds this morning!

As of 9:30pst we're at 60 refunds for forum users and 26 refunds for reddit users! 

BFL must be spending a lot of time processing refunds these days.  As much as I hate to deter them from assembling hardware...oh wait, they haven't been doing that anyways...

Thank you again to everyone who has sent along a token of their appreciation!

I posted this on the "BFL f**ks us over" thread, but is relevant here.

I went to read the thread [BFL splat from] Swedish ASIC miner company kncminer.com because of the unusual name.  It's not any inter-company related things at all; just some posters who have discovered BFL isn't exactly timely in their shipping.

Among the posts, though, was this one (bolding is mine): https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=296589.msg3181486#msg3181486

As someone still waiting for their March 2013 order (paying the lower price), I can tell you I'm fine just getting a refund. At this stage, even if they shipped it, I wouldn't be able to make any money back from it. I just claimed a refund with Paypal yesterday. They told me they have hundreds of refund requests for BF Labs Inc, and that they will credit me back the amount immediately, and that BFL has 40 days to dispute the charges by showing that they've already sent the item.

Two things:

First, maybe lajz99 was the trailblazer that opened what now is a public pathway. In any case, this is my chance to mention what a great community spirit has been shown here by him.  That's all too much missing in the corrupt and everybody-for-themselves attitudes in the Age of ASICs.

Second, that "40 days to ship" seems to mesh with the "operational mistake" of shipping out of queue that BFL got caught at the other day.

Got mine today, thanks a ton for helping out the community :D

Wow, just got my refund. After 9 hours only!
Thanks! :)

Wow, I can barely keep up with everyone's posts and PM's about getting refunds today!  How soon will we hit 100?!

After being declined a refund by BFL, and being told Paypal wouldn't do anything since the 45 day deadline has passed.  I emailed PayPal and requested escalation to the Butterfly Labs account manager and to a couple of other addresses suggested by lajz99.

I sent out that email to Paypal at 08:00 this morning, discussing BFL's violation of the 45 day TOS and non-delivery of products ordered as far back as 2012.  I received the response, shown below, at 11:30 - just 2.5 hours later...

Once the balance hits my account, a nice tip in BTC will  be on the way to Lajz99 - please PM me an address!

(Note - the other $200 was for 2 upgrades to Jalapenos  that I didn't even mention in my email - the Jalas themselves were paid for in BTC.  I notice that payment for those aren't being refunded.)

---

Dear xxxx xxxx,

Thank you for reaching out to PayPal regarding your concerns with your Butterfly Lab transactions.  We take situations like this very seriously and are pleased to inform you we have been in direct communication with Butterfly Labs and your payment has been refunded.

Your original payment of $5,066.00 USD was funded with your bank account, the refund will be returned to your PayPal balance. Your payment of $200.00 USD will also be refunded to your PayPal balance.


Thank you for being a valued customer!

Sincerely,
Adam
PayPal

 

Got the refund within 3 hours.

Thanks a lot lajz99

Interestingly, my account at BFL is still active (I half expected it to be insta-banned for this) and my order still shows as "processing". So maybe they're hoping they can get to my order/all these orders within 40 days and that people will sign for and accept the package so they can get PayPal to recharge them?

I'm not sure if PayPal can recharge you or not but I suggest that you do NOT sign for a package from BFL if you have received a refund.  Not only is it dishonest, but you may end up paying for a worthless product.

I sent out emails yesterday evening and got my refund this morning. Feels good.

Anybody else who did not get a refund from PayPal after waiting for several days ?

I have sent a polite and short email containing all the needed facts to the PayPal addresses provided by lajz99 on last Friday.
However I did not receive any answer or refund from PayPal yet.
This morning, I have sent another email with a polite status request; no answer so far.

I am very happy for all you guys who received a refund but it seems that it does not work every time. Maybe its more
complicated if you live in Europe like me.

Just an information for all people still waiting and seeing all these statements about having received a refund / response
mostly after less than 24 hours...

@lajz99
Thanks for helping us - keep going :)
If I ever get a refund from PayPal you will get a tip :)
 

Oh definitely. I thought that was pretty well understood, but I suppose I should have said it just so it's explicit. If BFL has to prove you received the item to get the money out of PayPal, that requires your signature for the package. At that point they're entitled to their money, and you're on the hook for the bill.

Looking at the PayPal TOS:

11.2 Reimbursement for Your Liability.
In the event that you are liable for any amounts owed to PayPal, PayPal may immediately remove such amounts from your balance. If you do not have a balance that is sufficient to cover your liability, your remaining balance (if any) will be removed, your Account will have negative balance up to the amount of your liability, and you will be required to immediately Add Funds to your Balance or reimburse PayPal through an alternative method. If you do not do so, PayPal may engage in collection efforts to recover such amounts from you.

So basically, if they ship anyway and you sign for it within the 40 day window, PayPal will take the money out of your account (if it's there) and if not start hounding you with collections calls and ultimately sell the debt to a collection agency who will be no fun to deal with at all.

So tl;dr - If they ship, don't sign and refuse the package.

18 hours .  Full Refund!!

Awesome!

THANKYOU!!

Chalk up another full refund, with nothing more than one email sent.

I highly recommend speaking to laz if you need a refund from BFL

I shot Laz a 10% tip - seemed well worthwhile for the help retrieveing money that I had considered gone and un-recoverable at this point. 

Don't be stingy - generosity is good for both your karma and your chi :)

Yes definitely make sure you refuse it if they "accidentally" ship it to you.  Poor miner, at least he got a nice trip out of it.


Depart USPS Sort Facility
Processed through USPS Sort Facility
Refused
Out for Delivery
Arrival at Post Office
Processed through USPS Sort Facility

I agree, thanks to Lazj99 for helping people recover their funds from BFL.

Please tip him well, otherwise you may not have obtained your 100% refund!

I got banned again for referencing Laz and his refunds. Glad to see people are getting their money back and taking care of Laz.

Got my refund. Thank goodness.

Refund processing according to PayPal. Sent an email and got a response in < 3 hours.

It looks like a pretty canned response and I'm assuming that PP is on auto-refund at this point.

When it shows up don't sign for it, tell the delivery person (politely) that you're refusing the package, and that's that.

Make sure everyone else at your home/wherever you sent the package knows not to sign for it and to refuse it too.

Well, the information is now public on reddit so I've added it to the original post.  I knew it would happen at some point.   >:(

I hope you all continue to receive refunds using the information and I appreciate those of you who have sent your gratitude via tips.  If anyone has any questions or needs any help feel free to shoot me a PM.  I will also continue to moderate the thread so it does not get shut down so please keep it on topic.

If you do receive a refund please post or shoot me a PM if you want to remain anonymous but I want to continue keeping track of how many have gotten their cash back!

[Edit: I removed the information because I received so many PM's asking for me to not take the chance making it public.  Screw those on reddit.]

TY for making it Easy.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-WoGwuiIrLN0/Taj207ncqMI/AAAAAAAAB3s/n1jjPYQd17w/s1600/90811910_4bd1985f37.jpg

Tip for anyone wanting to refuse delivery of a package.  Write a note stating you want to refuse the package and tape it to the front door.  Print and sign your name, also include the name of the sender (in case of other package). In most cases this should be enough for the driver to refuse the item.  This way you don't have to wait around the house or count on someone else to refuse it for you.

Source: Ex FedEx Delivery Driver

I mentioned this earlier, but the PayPal terms of service don't seem to allow for that. What they'll do is give your PayPal account a negative balance, then begin attempting to collect on that amount (which would involve collections calls first, and ultimately PayPal selling the debt to a third party collection agency who will possibly resort to all sorts of other fun tactics to get the money, depending on how much it is).

As long as you refuse the package you won't ever have to worry about that.

+1

    OK refund.  BFL->PayP->VISA= +72 Hours.

    I'll send PM confirming my donation.

   Thank you very much.
   Best Regards
   Antonio Molina

About the time the Monarch line was introduced.

That made me chuckle.  This thread makes me happy.

Full refund here. Thanks for sharing with the community. Wonder how long before BFL is bankrupt - that was my main worry that they would go bankrupt before my position in the queue came up! The Monarch stuff (ponzi scheme anyone?) and the queue jumping were the last straws for me!

So are there any other decent mining companies out there who are shipping actual product?

I received BFL->PayPal full refund in 1 hour :D
Now waiting money to go back to VISA, but thats not an issue

Up to 83 refunds this morning!

Please Note:  I am not the creator of the reddit thread nor the website that has been posted (warning: there is a browser warning re: phishing on the site).  The creator of that thread has pretty much decided to take credit for the information after I provided it to him on here.  He also will not reveal his identity to me.  While I appreciate that he is helping out the community, I do NOT appreciate someone taking credit and marketing himself for obtaining the information I spent quite a while digging up.  That is my rant for the day.

Messages are starting to slow down significantly.  Don't be scared, feel free to reach out if you need help!

Man, that is quite lame - sorry to hear that. And for those on this thread - I would encourage anyone who got a refund to tip lajz99 - just think about how sorry you'd be when you got a paperweight miner in 2014.

Hey all, wondering if anyone contacted them today and got a response yet. I sent in the emails yesterday, got one autorespond almost instantly saying that they don't accept incoming emails on that address and to log into my account and contact them from there instead, and the other hasn't responded yet after 24 hours.

Just trying to keep on top so I know when I should send in another in case they missed the first or something. Don't want to harass them.

So i email Paypal about this matter because my order on BFL also still "Processing".

This is the respond email  from Paypal:)

@ Zich

Can you contact them and tell them that BFL is ["apparently"] sending a huge number of Tracking numbers to PayPal that aren't actually in transit to delay the Chargeback process....and see what they have to say about that?

Could you ask them to investigate this on your behalf?

This is starting to not look good.  I wonder why they suddenly don't have the "features" to initiate the chargeback?  I sent to paypal via the supplied e-mail addresses around 1:00 PM EST yesterday, no response yet.  I really hope it works out.  I'm lacking confidence that the "shipping dates" BFL is showing are even real.  It just seems like more misinformation.

OK, I misunderstood.  I thought they were saying PayPal lacked the features to issue a refund.  Hope top hear good news from Paypal soon.

I have a friend who is trying to go through this process starting yesterday and it is not working at all anymore. There are no responses from the email addresses given and Paypal is playing hardball again with the 45 day limit.

Has there been a response from the email addresses provided stating the 45 day limit, or has there been no response at all?  

(Also, if there are any really good, attorney-level writers out there who are familiar with BFL FACTS,  please reach out to me)

I also included a request in my email that BFL's refusal to refund my money for non-delivery, and their violation of the PayPal 45 day TOS requirement on pre-orders - still having not delivered orders placed in 2012 -  be forwarded  to and reviewed by the Butterfly Labs account manager.  Don't know if that helped, but I received a refund ASAP...

I got the 45 day response from the "contact us" form on the PayPal site.  No response yet from the supplied e-mail addresses.

Got my refund, cheers.

Same here. Through the site I even notified them (after the 45-day mark) why I felt that they can still push it through, but after going back-and-forth multiple times it was essentially the same thing each time, "it has been over 45 days" over and over.

Through the two emails, I sent them off 2 days ago and still haven't heard anything back.

I got a response from PayPal that they have created a non-delivery claim and are awaiting a response from BFL.  I can't imagine BFL will rush to respond to an e-mail from anyone, including PayPal. :(  Fingers Crosssed!

Thanks very much, Just got my refund in 36 hours, there wasn't a return email or anything created on Paypal or lodged with my bank.

Since I paid with a credit card I had to scan all the way back to the start of the year to see the reversals,

Once again thanks,
RedMetal

Awesome, glad to hear it worked out for you!

Up to 89 refunds now!

I don't think that's a good idea to oppose Paypal

You should see detail transaction in PayPal history

Basically, Paypal don't care if the item you  bought will give ROI or not. They just need to know if the item is delivered or not. If not shipped, how long it's already due. Too long then give full refund, still on permitted windows then push BFL to ship.

So if you send mail to Paypal make sure you don't talk about ROI, this will be fatal mistake. Just tell them how long the shipping already due.

Recently we can see no shipping on jalapeno & LS. My guess is BFL trying to give priority on customer that near to delivery like feb or march order due to paypal or CC chargeback. Or customer with due not more than 3 or 4 month(The agreement for PRE-ORDER) & Paypal definitely will give opportunity to BFL to ship the item. This is what Paypal call "Seller & Buyer Win". Seller still can sell some item, some customer got full refund & other got item more quickly. Again, Paypal had no concern on your ROI.

I order my jalapeno on April 6, 2013 & ask for refund on September 15, 2013

I purchased I think in June, and initiated a refund request at (i think) the 43 day mark (of total 45 days allowed?).  I paid $2,800 roughly for the 50GH/s unit.

I chose to call it in, and the girl on the phone who was apparently in the Philippines (this concerned me but turned out to not be an issue) assured me no questions asked that if I had not received my order in a "timely manner" they would reverse the charge forceably on my behalf.

I told her "What if the site claims its a preorder and makes no guarantee as to when it will ship?"

She replied "That doesn't matter.  You ordered, and its been sufficent time for them to ship.  If they can't provide tracking information on your order then we consider it failure to deliver.  So I will initiate a claim for you".

A few days later I got this really strange notice - automated email saying BFL had credited me for my shipping fee's only.  

Not sure what that was all about.

I waited a full 7 business days and the money was refunded into my paypal account.  Got all of it back.

Thank you PayPal!

After I got my Paypal refund I sent BFL email saying please don't send my orders to save themselves some shipping cost. Now both of the orders are On Hold instead of Processing. Send them email if you got refund to save yourself and them some headache in the future.

Still got 1 order paid with wire transfer, nothing can be done about that one. It's still Processing.

In my case, there is no dispute in Resolution Center because i order on april 2013(5 month due). After receiving my mail, Paypal just process the reversal without opening dispute. I check the history there is no open & close case.

Since you make 2 approach to Paypal, then we can't know which one create the dispute. By the way, when did you paid the order(my guess is arround 45 days)?

it's been more than 24 hours and counting. neither they have not replied nor refund me back yet. i am worried they might stopped refunding people based on that method. by the way, does anyone know whether paypal people work on weekend or not?

  I did it last Sat. morning and I got replied email less 6 hrs for refund.




  ps: some dump ass posted information at BFL forum and got banned.

I sent my email Friday night no response :( . Just resent emails and contacted BFL Labs via email will keep you all posted.

Order was paid in late march.  Dispute filed through web site was rejected.  Nothing new yet.

Did new dispute appear on your Paypal account? What is your order( Jally, LS or...)?

Try calling. I've had them file a claim beyond 45 days by talking to a real person in disputes. Just politely explain the situation and they might make an exception.

it is now 48 hours and counting. no reply from them yet. here are the things i did.

1. i opened a dispute through paypal web form and it was rejected automatically because of 45 days period (i ordered on January)
2. i sent emails to the addresses i got from lajz99.

now only thing left for me to do is to call them.

You don't need to call them.  If lajz99's method still works, that one is still best.  I called them up as my step 2 and was promised an email or a callback regarding a decision within a week.  I got neither until I did lajz99's method two weeks™ later.

Refund received within 24 hours of email.

Thank you!

Sending you a tip when I get home :)

No refund for 24+ hours ;(

No reply or refund from paypal since Sept 19th....

I got a Paypal refund on the 16th September. BFL have just sent me a shipping email. Either the incompetence is astounding or there is some devious tactics afoot...

I received my full refund from paypal using this method... and a day later BFL sent me a shipping email. And then my first BFL Single arrived 3 days later.  Hmmm... that was unexpected...

Good to see this is still happening, even though Josh denies it constantly.

Refuse the package if you dont want it. If you do sign for it, you will still pay.

 And yeah, its likely no coincidence, but when did you guys place your orders? Does it fit with Jody's shipping list or where these also sent out of order?

What was your order date?

How can there be such a disconnect from what Jody states, since she's head of shipping, and orders being shipped outta queue after a PayPal refund was issued?

http://www.butterflylabs.com/management-view/jody-drake-7/


There is no way that one of nine other people in a 14' X 30' (approximated) room is able to have so many refunded out-of-queue pre-orders shipped without the others, let alone the lead personal, know about it unless they were approved, but by whom? Prior to the assumed influx of PayPal reversals, such an act would've been unfathomable, yet here we are and after a systems upgrade which would've made this event even more unlikely.

Jody's daily blog outlining what was shipped reflects just that, and not what's been sent to the shipping department to be shipped. That said, then why are refunded out-of-queue pre-orders not represented in said blog posts?

If there's no oversight in the office, how does BFL know that somebody in shipping isn't bringing in their own shipping labels and attaching them to boxes prior to the carrier's arriving? The USPS isn't going to check if each and every box has some official BFL shipping label attached. Their only concern is that the postage was properly paid, along with the shipping vitals being actuate. The only way BFL would become aware of such an act is if too many orders assumably shipped turn up not delivered, too many to blame on USPS error.

Sounds like Phinnaeus has a relapse. Someone call 911

Apologies for repost, from another thread, but this is relevant here also:

Oh, looks like Josh and BFL are deciding to play hardball with Paypal refunds. Background, I ordered a Single on 27th November 2012. I got sick of checking the BFL forum for news (of which there was never any good). I was impressed with the professionalism of KNC with my Jupiter order, so elected to seek a refund via Paypal, which I received within 6 hours on the 15th September.

This morning I received a shipping notification from BFL, to which I replied with this email:


Just now, I received this rather threatening email


So, it is true. They are outwardly trying to prevent you from getting refunds via Paypal. PM me if you need more information.

P.S. Josh hates it if you use this picture as a profile image. I know this for a fact. It's copyrighted.

https://i.imgur.com/2u5TEB0.jpg

Thanks for the advise. So i send mail to BFL to update my order. Here the respond from BFL.

I'd put some BTC into a common legal action

There does not seem to be much appetite for this at the moment, Am hoping this will change when they miss the September deadline.

Doesn't seem like we're receiving many refunds over the past couple days.  I'm gonna give it a couple more days then may initiate a new plan, but this will not be done before we can confirm PP has stopped responding.

Again, I need a good writer.  If you've got skillz hit me up.

He's doing fine, I have him on eyeball drips full of truth.

He is dazed and confused at times, but he will snap out of it given enough drips of truth. (powerful stuff!)

Ok - here is the new twist...... it is entirely possible that PayPal has run out of BFL funds to chargeback as they answered my request by saying I should call my credit card company.....

I attempted to do this two - three weeks ago and was denied a chargeback from Amex as the period was past their 90 day cut off...... One last hail mary was in order and - Holy. Fucking. Shit. they disputed the charges and have suspended 12 singles worth of March orders back to my account pending a fraud investigation.

Also, I confirmed explicitly with Amex that if BFL sent product as a response to the charge back that I would refuse the shipment and Amex agreed that in such a situation the chargeback would proceed - we are talking just shy of $17,000 spread over 4 orders

Thank you AMEX - I love you. Really, I do.

And thank you PayPal for telling me to call my credit card company again.

Onward and upward....

And, yes Josh. This monkey is dancing.

http://www.netanimations.net/Cute-bright-eyed-monkey-getting-down-to-some-wicked-tunes.gif

I think Reagan should win a second term with no problem and Muhammad Ali will win by a KO before the 4th round come Friday. What do you guys think of that new song by Men Without Hats? Pretty groovy, eh?

BRB, cause dad wants me to do something for him.

Yeah I got a hold of someone at paypal like 5min ago...disputes..they said because it was not a cc order and over 45 days only option was to contact my bank and see if I can get the bank xfer reversed that way....he said that there are a "crapload" of people trying to get $$$ back from BFL non credit card ie 'bank xfer" looks like paypal is gonna pass the buck to your bank......(not much luck there i'd imagine) ...so ....I also told him about the executive email option that we sent the email too as stated in the bfl refund thread....he said good luck they seem to be swamped with people trying to get around 45 days...so it looks like either my bank will come thru (unlikely they will probably punt me back to paypal imho...at which paypal says it is a dead end) or the email we sent to the addresses given are high enough up on the paypal chain of command they continue to do something about this.....just because it ticks off the higher  ups at paypal...so hopefully paypal comes thru and does the right thing ...but I can hear josh on the phone saying to paypal it is "unnecessary" 2 more weeks..

nice to know they got all this nice pre-order cash....so they could build their nice shiny monarch for there newly created "mining farm" (ie see main page on orders)...if I was paypal i'd feel played as well but we will see..

anyway....email route here looks likely to be the last hope....anyone you phone via voice at paypal don't seem to have the clout....but they did confirm that a lot of p/o'd people saying they have gotten played by BFL ....we just need the higher ups a paypal to also be p'o'd and slap BFL down as an example....

anyway not sure what the above means except no one contacted directly via voice at paypal seemed to have a clue on how to fix this ..ie not enough clout....so we will see.....

not looking too good imho thou

Searing.

Phase 2, coming soon to a bitcointalk thread near you.

Lol, great minds think alike, I was about to say just that....

ANYWAY, you will want to contact the Johnson County District Attorney in Johnson County Kansas. They are handling the case
Lot of complaints. Please fill the form on da.jocogov.org (http://da.jocogov.org)
Better than nothing, they've been investigating BFL bad policy since the beginning.

Guys.. Go the legal route. File a complaint with the county consumer court.

Fill out the form here http://da.jocogov.org/sites/da.jocogov.org/files/CONSUMER%20COMPLAINT%20FORM.pdf

Just received this reassurance from Paypal that BFL cannot reverse my refund, despite shipping the item:


It's tempting to pay the UK import tax, sell the item on eBay and walk away with the profit. But I'm not like BFL. I don't shaft people.

Hey Searing!!!  Welcome to the Bitcointalk forum & the best of luck on your refunds!!!!!!!!  ;)

DO NOT give up!!!!!!!! Keep hounding your bank or Paypal!!!!!!!!!  8)

I send the emails Sept 22 and still I didn't receive response.

Do you will post the new thread?

Thanks for your effort!

I love the law (at least here in the US)!

http://about.usps.com/publications/pub300a/pub300a_tech_021.htm

Essentially what you got was an unsolicited package, which means it's yours to keep if you want. You will be recommended to return it, but in all actuality it's yours to do as you please.

At the absolute fastest, I'm sure it will take about 2 weeks to get shipping in order so you can send it back. :) We all know how long 2 weeks is...

Still thinking about how to proceed...with BFL not doing business with PayPal anymore I'm not sure what more there is that can be done besides going the legal route...

It sounds like a lot of people are no longer receiving responses, unfortunately there's not much I can do about that.  Let's wait another day or so and see what happens.

I think one the following might have happened.

A) The rep's at the office have a refund quota per a specific period of time. (A week? A month?) It was probably exceeded by funneling too many refunds at once.

B) The Paypal account that was frozen had limited funds and they have been exhausted plus whatever PayPal quota they have for issuing refunds on a specific merchant account.

C) Paypal has probably begun legal actions against BFL and is trying to recover a large sum of money.

D) You overworked the rep to death, and he just quit responding.

E) The rep is answering emails, just too damn many to get through in such a short period of time. (More time is required)

F) BFL figured out a way to screw PayPal?

G) BFL stopped answering the phone.

Ranio, many thanks for that link. The phrase "unsolicited merchandise" is a gem. This sentence deserves its own quote:

It actually gets better. Given that Brandon at BFL knew, and has admitted, that I had been refunded via Paypal in advance of dispatching the item, BFL are liable for a £400 fine in the UK:

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1971/30

Brandon really shouldn't have sent that email... Feel like I'm giving BFL legal advice here.

That guy on reddit probably broke it with his greed (and love of beer).  He even got his own website listing down everything except the email address.

“unsolicited” means, in relation to goods sent to any person, that they are sent without any prior request made by him or on his behalf.

donch, thats a quote from the legislation you linked. Clearly these shipments are not "unsolicited".

"Unsolicited" is a word open to interpretation. Brandon knew that I did not want the product and had been refunded, in advance of dispatch, and I have proof of this fact. By sending me the product I am liable for an import duty of 20%, which is approximately £160. The courier in the UK (Parcelforce) pays this, in advance, upon arrival in the UK. This is a deliberate inconvenience they have chosen to cause me.

The legal advice I have just received is that I should pay the tax, accept delivery and then inform BFL that they have 28 days to reimburse me the import duty and arrange for collection. This seems fair to me.

There's tons of UK legislation that is meant to protect customers from tactics like this:

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2008/1277/contents/made
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2008/1277/schedule/1/made (especially paragraph 5 - bait advertising)

http://www.adviceguide.org.uk/england/consumer_e/consumer_common_problems_with_products_e/consumer_problems_with_delivery_e/consumer_unsolicited_goods_e/youve_received_goods_or_services_you_didnt_ask_for_distance_sales.htm

Basically, what this guy said. I've canceled orders in the past with companies that failed to deliver, and they have shipped days/weeks after the chargeback. My CC company has always said the same thing: "we recommend" returning it but that it's ultimately up to me because it's mine to do with as I wish.

Once an order is canceled, it's no longer requested. If someone sends you an order after that point, it's yours.

IE. you have a magazine subscription. It ends and you don't renew. They send you a 13th issue and then try to charge you for it. You don't owe anything because it was unsolicited. The fact that you had a subscription prior means nothing.

In the case of BFL, they had been contacted to be let know he had done a chargeback. This was effectively locking in his canceled order. When they shipped after this, it legally became unsolicited mail as he no longer had any desired business with them.

It *would* be different if they shipped *prior* to the chargeback. But once they have that notice, it's done.

I've sent a request to PayPal two days ago.  So far, I don't see any funds being reimbursed back into my account.

really we shall all do this, it is the straight way

Pretty sure BFLs paypal account is exhausted of funds and refunds going forward will be difficult if not impossible.

But hey $350,000 is nothing to sneeze at.

donch I have the same problem. I have received refund but after 5 days BFL has shipped my order.
I have emailed about that but no response.
Currently I'm thinking what to do with this ALREADY useless device?
It will not pay off anyway.
Currently they are sold on ebay and people pay from 1500 to 2500 $ for it. Why?! Do they understand what they are buying?

Yes.  Especially those that will mine with it for 30 days, then chargeback via PayPal claiming the device is "significantly not as described", and return it.  You, as the seller, are SOL...  Been here, done this.

Find the equivalent legislation in your country. See if they are sending you "unsolicited goods" according to those laws. In the UK and US, you are entitled to keep unsolicited goods as long as you inform the supplier that they can collect them if they want. I spoke to a lawyer friend and he confirmed this after carefully reading the relevant acts.

Don't be intimidated by BFL, they're trying bully boy tactics now to extract every last drop of cash. The Paypal refunds obviously hurt. Paypal reassured me they would not, under any circumstances, reverse the refund.

Just received this email from excutiveoffice@paypal.com Any help or suggestions?

Ouch, they have changed their tune. Sorry you didn't get in quick enough. My transaction occurred on 27th November 2012. This is what I was told.

Bingo, it is a PayPal screw-athon.

Rejected:

Thank you for reaching out to PayPal for assistance regarding your transaction with Butterfly Labs. 
 
As a result of your escalation, PayPal has opened a claim on your behalf.  After a thorough review of your claim, we have determined we cannot continue with this investigation because your complaint was filed 45 or more days after the original transaction date.   
 
In order to prevent a similar issue in the future, you are able to learn more about how we investigate transaction problems by clicking “Legal Agreements” at the bottom of any PayPal page, then click “PayPal User Agreement.”
 
You can find additional information and tips about buying and selling safely on our Business Resource Center at https://www.paypal-businesscenter.com/manage-your-business.
 
You are valued customer and we are sorry we were not able to meet your needs. 
 
Thank you for your patience and cooperation regarding this matter.
 
Sincerely,
PayPal

Yes, and that's likely the person who posted the link to that reddit post in this thread near the top.

To those of you who have been rejected, I wish that wasn't the case, unfortunately I have no additional advice at this point.

Another almost completed Refund for 1 Jalapeno here!

There was a mix up with the 2 PayPal transactions.

1) $308 - initial purchase is now a refund pending in my account.
2) $100 - Jalapeno upgrade transaction, refund not pending in my account.

Many thanks for your help with those contacts!

Cheers,

I have just got my order canceled aswell! :)

yep got the same letter today..the only thing I can add to this is that 1) according to the paypal rep previous on the phone I talked to a couple nights ago...Paypal has gotten a "crapload" his words believe it or not of complaints about BFL in the last few weeks and 2) the only recourse with bank xfer is is to contact your bank (which in my case says it is a paypal problem)...so stuck....at the current rate of production at BFL looks like I'd get my april orders of 5 7gh jallies and 30gh around nov/dec I fully expect BFL to simply ship jallies up to the april 1st date and not ship any product beyond the price change until all products (with the possible exception of mini-rigs) are shipped up to that point...then address the stuff after the price point....thus continuing there trickle of products with the least amount of manufacturing expense in pre-ordering stuff and in keeping employment costs down ..ie we're screwed they will send it when they dang well want to....imho...anyway live and learn....on a side note I have 600gh of KNC coming supposedly with "significant increase" in hash..so if they can up the hash 11% and deliver by oct 15th my july 1st order as claimed..then that is 65gh and I can "kinda" call it a wash....either that or upgrade to a monarch via slavix on bfl forums for$850 to a monarch....(unlikely)...anyway....hopefully others who have ordered from knc may get some of this back it least in the denial of your own mind (hey grasping at straws here) imho quite frankly was just way way to much paypal cash paid out to bfl for paypal to deal with ..if they refunded everyone that got screwed from BFL it would probably put BFL under and I'm sure BFL gave them the old "in 2 weeks line....promise" live and learn I guess Searing

I have been chasing PayPal for 2 weeks.  :-[

I had a similar response from PayPal:

So either:
A) my request filed simultaneously to BFL was put in motion.
B) PayPal contacted BFL and they initiated the refund.

I suspect B is the case since they have only issues a refund for the initial order totaling $308, not the Upgrade Order, yet.

Update:

I added the email addresses to the main post, at this point I don't think it's worth trying to keep it private since so few people are receiving responses/refunds...

If anyone has any questions feel free to hit me up, however, I will not reply to messages asking what can be done when you don't receive a response.  I simply don't know and I'm not sure I have the time to find another avenue especially since BFL no longer does business via PayPal.

I'm glad so many people have been able to obtain a refund, however, this was very time consuming for me and I don't have an hour+ every day to continue to respond to messages when I could be working or trading.  Best of luck to everyone!

"Should you have a PayPal problem that needs decision making authority, these are the persons you can contact directly. Each one of these persons has the power to review your account, unlimit your account or arrange for your money to be returned to you.

PayPal Office of Executive Escalations:

1-402-935-2269 (Michelle, Executive Escalations)

1-402-935-2116 (Elizabeth Morey, Supervisor, Executive Escalations)

1-402-935-2172 (Adam Braasch, Senior Agent)

1-402-935-2268 (Beth Beutler, Senior Agent)

1-402-935-2174 (Jackie Hart, Senior Agent)

1-402-952-8951 (Michael Lazure, Senior Agent)

1-402-935-5073 (Stephanie Mikovec, Senior Agent)

1-402-935-2331 (Tara Stevens, Senior Agent)"

J

And remember, always fund your future PayPal purchases with a credit card

What email did you send it to or did you use the contact us page (https://products.butterflylabs.com/contacts/)?

What do you say, "paypal/visa refunded my purchases, please don't send the item", a one liner?

Thanks

I received a refund.  If BFL is so inept that they can't track such things, and if they send me unsolicited merchandise in the future, I'll sell the stuff on eBay, and wish them good luck with trying to sue me for payment.

Well my unsolicited merchandise is in a transatlantic state. I feel like saying I'll pay for the goods when it shows ROI, i.e. never...

Paypal update. I asked for some advice:


To which the genuinely helpful response was:


I love the ambiguity! BFL are never going to get another penny out of PayPal. That is for sure. I'm just going to sit tight and watch out for whatever dastardly new tactic Josh et al come up with to try and extract some cash from me.

Only Tara, Adam and Michael worked for me. Hopefully something good comes out of those phone calls.

Thanks

Just received an email from BFL regarding my refund.


Last I checked, isn't BFL located in Kansas?  Or is BFL so clueless to as which state they're operating in?  Did Tamika just explain to me that BFL is violating Federal Trade Commision guideline?  I've waited way more than 30 days.  Anyhow, att this point, I still haven't received a response/refund from PayPal.  I gave BFL a shot but already knew their answer.  I'm going to let them ship whatever they want to ship to me and reject the package.  If they still feel they are entitled to keep my money after I reject the shipments, then I'll give my attorney a call.

Most companies incorporate in Nevada or Delaware.  BFL was registered as a Missouri company, but just recently folded that up.  Now they're a Wyoming corporation doing business in Kansas.  They get tax breaks that way...

This is obviously the new line: "customers who want refunds are hedging their bets". Josh posts (https://forums.butterflylabs.com/bfl-forum-miscellaneous/5064-difficulty-set-got-147-million-3.html#post59567) in the "other" forum today:


The products are still delayed today. We don't know if most customers have received their products 5 months after their last opportunity to get a refund on May 1st, because no one knows the distribution of their orders and they certainly haven't made much progress with the higher hash rates product lines. BFL are happy to rely on their customers as a "hedge" for their over-selling, late delivery and catalogue of fuck-ups. The money that has sat in their bank account for over a year has been a reliable insurance to ensure they can take as long as they want to.

It makes be laugh the amount of different lines that Josh has spun since mid 2012 to explain BFL's terrible policies and incompetence. This one takes the biscuit. He doesn't know what "sorry" means.

So annoyed by Josh's bullshit. He doesn't even know what a hedge is. You invest in something and you reduce the risk of that investment by betting that the value might go down by purchasing another financial instrument. ie. you buy two things. Typically you'd invest in an equity and then put a short option on the same equity, so that you minimise your losses either way.

If I was hedging on the bitcoin price I'd buy Bitcoins and also buy an option on the price going down. In what way is putting my money into BFL's bank account for a year reducing my risk on the movement of the price of bitcoin? If I get a refund I still haven't made any money on Bitcoin because I didn't have any Bitcoin because BFL had my money!!!

Josh is a stupid asshole who thinks he's cleverer than he is. It's annoying me that he is annoying me :-)



  

https://www.kansas.gov/bess/flow/main?execution=e1s5

http://www.sos.ks.gov/CM_ServiceWM/displaydocuments.aspx?DocID=03331329

The only "hedging" that could be done would have the same effect as selling bitcoin at the time the order is placed and buying them back later when you requested a refund. This would only apply if you are paying in bitcoin. If people were actually placing orders to do this I would be surprised as you could have the same result by trading on an exchange.

I wonder how many people hedged their investment by selling their pre-order via whatever means, then turned around and somehow got a refund for the order, still unbeknown to the person awaiting their miner. The original pre-orderer can stall for a long time--prior to going dark--by claiming there's some sort of snafu over at Camp BFL, and will ship as soon as received themselves, going as far as stating that they'll even toss them a bone of some sort.

What did they say to you? What was their tone and what did you say to them?

Thanks youuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu~~~~~~~~~~~~~!!!!!!!!!

As someone who attempted to sell my preorders I can assure you there is virtually no market for them. In hand gear is different as people appear to be irrational in their valuation of it. If I had in hand gear I would instantly put it up for sale on bitmit. Given that I possess only preorders ATM I elected to charge it back.

Furthermore, I find it amusing for BFL or any of their erstwhile representatives to suggest that a customer is at fault for pursuing a legally available option to terminate a transaction. After all, BFL voluntarily made this option available by accepting paypal and credit card purchases. It was their choice to do so and their surprise at the consequence of that choice provides further insight into their iterative approach to their "business".

This is me hopping on the failboat


I had initially sent them a modified version of that formletter that appears on bflrefund.me
My real fuckup was probably when I waited to hear back from BFL regarding my refund request before raising it with PayPal (I didn't want to be lying when I said they denied a refund, even though I knew they would... didn't think I'd get rejected from PP though)

My PayPal order was paid for with a bank transfer (ACH I'm assuming) should I get in contact with my bank?  I'm thinking of contacting PP again asking why they've changed their minds today.

I sent my e-mail on 09/19/2013 and just got the same response as below on 09/26/2013.  I guess the magic e-mail addresses aren't working anymore.  heh..

Chad

Not really, if you ordered in early June and got refunded around July 6th in BTC and then re-ordered a week or so later, you'd still have an order and a fair amount of BTC.

I can't believe the way you try to find ways of defending logic like this. It's hard to know for certain the time period for when most BFL orders were placed but I'm betting the bulk of them took place in 2012, given the time it has taken to ship the orders for that period. The logic that people paid fiat or BTC in 2012 to "hedge" against the price of Bitcoin between then and September 2013 is ludicrous. Another point is that you would only "hedge" if you had certainty of the delivery date, which is completely not the case with BFL. All future and option contracts have expiry/maturity dates, as anyone who knows anything about financial markets would know.

The real story is that BFL knew how much hash rate they had sold at any point. At a point in time during their preorder period they must have known that their order book would make subsequent orders not a worthwhile investment. Obviously this depends on the exchange rate which peaked in April, which would have altered the calculation, but even then, as we are seeing now, this threshold was greatly surpassed.

BFL were greedy, oversold what they could produce, sold goods they knew would not be useful to their customers and because of their delays, reduced potential and future returns due to the emergence of competitors who could deliver before them. They deliberately withheld their order book and chose to lock customers in on May 1st knowing this dissatisfaction would occur.

BCP19, you are a cheerleader for BFL. Can I ask why?

If this was actually happening, i.e. customers who cycled refunds, it would have been very easy to spot the offenders and refuse new orders to the ones playing the system. A blanket ban on refunds because of this hypothetical scenario is just ludicrous. I bet it never happened and is just another smokescreen excuse. Refunds mean less revenue, BFL's singular concern.

The contrast is KNC who have limited orders to batches and at least offered some commitment not to oversell before their customers have had a chance to mine some coins. The other good example is Hashfast who have opened up their order book. These are good practices and will no doubt ensure repeat custom to those companies.

This scenario isn't "hedging", it's fraud. Anyone who did this is criminal. However, the concept of creating a secondary market for preorders on a forum is a stupid idea in the first place, only created as a means of keeping the order book full, rather than allowing refunds.

BFL have tried so many different schemes: future order vouchers, chip credits, preorder re-sales, Monarch transfers. The list goes on. The correct strategy (Josh's job description apparently) would have been to offer refunds and do just-in-time delivery on their components so that they would not ever be in a situation where a large chunk of refunds would cripple them. It's called the Toyota method or lean manufacturing and successful production lines around the world aspire to it:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lean_manufacturing

If your described scenario ever did occur the moral thing to do would be for BFL to cover the defrauded purchaser's loss. I bet you they would not do that, in the eventuality. Josh's "strategy" boils down to avoiding all risk to BFL at any cost.

My sneaking suspicion is that BFL shafted themselves by trying to fit their boards into snazzy looking cases which were totally inadequate to deal with the heat production of their chips. The wastage and therefore reduced profit on each order as a result of this meant that they had to sell at a higher price point and lock in existing orders. KNC identified this simple error at the very start of their production process.

Really ?   ;D

Magic bullet emails have done nothing for me, yet.  Sent five days ago.

Thank you I got my refund.  :D

Isn't that what I said though? By placing an order you are locking in a specific price for your coins (selling them) and when you request a refund you are getting the coins back at the current market rate (buying them). Your example just added a step of placing another order. You could have the exact same effect by trading your coins on an exchange.

If BFL is holding the BTC as a deposit until they deliver it is no skin off BFL's nose if a customer asks for a refund. They shouldn't cash in the BTC until they deliver the goods. The issue arises not from people wishing to hedge their BTC (if wouldn't be a hedge if BFL refunded them in BTC), but from BFL holding 100% deposits (or investments depending on how BFL spent the money) for a year. That creates a currency risk, which of course BFL tried to foist onto their customers.

At some point, we shall see what the AG of Kansas thinks of this sort of behavior  ;D

This doesn't make sense. No matter when you ordered or with what currency, you're getting back the exact same dollar amount regardless of the exchange rate for bitcoins is or was.

Some advice required please.

I placed an order with BFL in late August 2013 as a result of their promise that they would be up to date and have all orders shipped out by "the end of September". Well, it's now almost the end of September and I've just checked my BFL account and it lists no change in my "processing order" status. I then also checked Jody's shipping blog of 27th September and the upgraded Jalapeno units I ordered are still back-logged to 28th February. That makes them a full seven months behind their 'promise' to deliver by the end of this month.

I was happy to take them on their word that they'd drafted in extra staff and resources and that they'd be able to meet their end of September deadline, however, this has now been shown to be completely unrealistic and yet another attempt to deceive customers and take advantage of their money and goodwill.

I used Paypal and I'll still be within 45 days for both the 5 GH/s unit cost and the additional 2 GH/s upgrade cost, what's the best way in your experience that I go about getting a Paypal refund please? Should I email david.marcus@paypal.com and executiveoffice@paypal.com immediately or should I be doing something else as I'm within the 45 days?

Thanks for any information that you can provide and kudos for helping the community like this, I have to say I was pleased and relieved to see your thread.

:)

Since you're within the 45 days you should still be able to file a standard claim via the website to get your $ back.

Ok, great. Thanks very much indeed. I really appreciate all your help and will let you know if/when I get the refund.

Keep up the good work!

Thanks again  :D

My original point was that you cannot hedge the price of bitcoins by placing and canceling orders. If you place an order and pay with bitcoins and then request a refund 10 days later, it would be the same as selling coins and buying them back.

You must have some weird definition of cheerleader.  

Personally, I fail to see why you think BFL or any other mining equipment manufacturuing company should care less if their customers can make RoI or not.  They are in the business of selling an item.  If the public is so greedy to buy that item that they ruin the RoI on it, I fail to see WHY the company should be the moral compass for the public.  Look at McDonalds.  They must know that people who regularly eat at their restaurants are at an increased risk for obesity and heart disease, but do they care?  They' are only interested in the bottom line, the almighty $$$$$.

I also wouldn't call BFL greedy, as they could have jacked the prices up after seeing the demand.  If you want to talk GREED, then you need to point at ASICMiner first and foremost.

Someone who consistently defends BFL's actions and sees no harm in what they have done?


Repeat custom. McDonalds customers go back because they can get their meal quickly and cheaply. Mining customers will go back to a manufacturer if they have been treated fairly and with respect, given accurate information and receive timely delivery.


They did jack up the prices (doubled them) in the first half of this year. Can't remember the exact date.

What process did you use?

Contact someone @ phishing@commercebank.com.

Ask them about how to report (what you suspect is fraud) at commerce bank.

http://s16.postimg.org/qj20075kl/BFL_bank_Details.png

1) Tell them you paid for an item 1 (or more) months ago and you have not received the item you paid for.

2) Tell them you paid with a wire transfer (for those who paid with a wire transfer only) and that BFL has not sent you the miner you paid for within a [very] reasonable period of time.

3) Add notes about your transaction ID, dates, amounts sent, purpose for contacting them about your wire transfer. Let them know you have already contacted BFL and they have refused offering a refund for their poor business practice.

4) Let them know about the PayPal merchant account situation and that it was one of the Payment Processors that shut them down for ....well I don't know the official reason...

5) Let them know of the sheer number of complaints at the Kansas AG (Attorney General), the Local Police Department and District Attorney has on file.

Report back and let the community know if they give you an email or phone number which is not listed.

You'll need a linkedin account to access the information.

http://www.linkedin.com/title/fraud-agent/at-paypal

http://www.linkedin.com/title/merchant+account+manager/at-paypal/

http://www.blackhatteam.com/f165/paypal-contact-numbers-senior-agents-president-ceo-dispute-limitation-department-information-22219.html

http://consumerist.com/2008/06/06/all-the-secret-paypalebay-email-addresses-and-phone-numbers-you-could-ever-want/

moldenburg@paypal.com (Michael Moldenburg, Paypal Complaints)
sthompson@paypal.com (Scott Thompson, PayPal President)
mhentges@paypal.com (Mary Hentges, CFO PayPal)
crme@paypal.com (PayPal Office of Executive Escalations)
appeal@paypal.com
harbor1@paypal.com
account-review@paypal.com
ppelce@paypal.com
cardreview@paypal.com
complaint-response@paypal.com
abuse@paypal.com
Europeanservices@paypal.com
resolutions@paypal.com
appeals@paypal.com
compliance@paypal.com
escalations@paypal.com
webform@paypal.com
service@paypal.com (Unmonitored)
spoof@paypal.com
complaints@paypal.com
aup@paypal.com
press@paypal.com (Let public relations know you are filing complaints)
apires@paypal.com (Amanda Pires — Media Relations Contact)
chargebackresponse@paypal.com
pending_reversal@paypal.com
global2@paypal.com
intl@paypal.com
ppe_courtesycredit@paypal.com
BoEappeal@paypal.com

Same here. Same BS letter.

+1 (same "letter")

If that is what you call a cheerleader, you missed there... I've never defended their every action, I merely point out the other side of the argument.  In addition, I never said I see no harm.  I did a workup about 2 months ago as to what would have happened in BFL had shipped on time.  I used very small shipping amounts and the results were that only the first 1-3% (depending on their true customer count) would have even had a prayer of RoI.  I foresaw today's difficutly back in May, I was just 3 weeks early.  You can thank Yifu and BFL for causing me to miss the date.

You did get that one right, they did double the prices at the point they had working chips in hand and found out they needed roughly 2x as many chips.  Basically when they went from proto-type to production model.  I love how you guys defend AM's practice of fleecing people "because he had product in hand".  $1,000,000 for 1.333TH is what AM was charging back in May. Through BFL that would have cost about 1/20th the price(1/30 if you bought before April).  On the one hand you have an in the hand now ASIC that will never earn RoI vs a pre-order that has a dern sight better chance.

Me too.  Has anyone had any luck ringing the senior agents?

So I talked to my bank (PNC) yesterday, just to get information, not to start anything yet.  They said that I could initiate the process whenever ("doesn't matter how far back it was") and they would open an investigation.  They basically just told me to have all the dates and exact amounts.  They also warned that if I had a continuing relationship with PayPal this could be bad for that (which I figured, since they'd be doing a chargeback on paypal essentially).

I replied to the paypal "we can'd do anything for you" letter from executiveoffice, and made it include david.marcus again.  I'll see if I get any response, but its already been >1 day on that and the initial reply only took an hour or so.

Same here. I used the letter on the bflrefund.me site and edited the specifics. I sent it after receiving the standard 'no you aren't having any of your money back' email from BFL after a refund request. I ordered a Jally in January and upgraded to a little single on February 7th. I included both transaction IDs and both Paypal dispute numbers. I emailed david.marcus@paypal.com. Should I email someone else? I emailed bflrefund.me for the list of people to send emails to and haven't had a response yet so I just went with that name that I saw on here.

Any ideas?

I just submitted a refund request to Dave. :o

We should start a new thread, What will BFL do with all their junk jalapenos?

LULZ, I've canceled/refunded it while back, yet right now, I've gotten a mail about package on the way. So (because I am such a nice guy) I've written them that that order is no longer in place and I was actually optioned to pay it again, via bitpay (I still cancelled it though).
a) They don't have info from paypal
b) They are fishing and hoping that someone will reorder it with immediate shipment.
---
It is sad that all of this wouldn't have happened if they would deliver "on time".

What was your order date?

beginning of february

Lajz99 , I managed to get refund following your previous thread which got locked , but wanted to thank you for saving a lot of folks from BFL (BLACK FUCKIN HOLE).

Tip :)  TX_id : d34660d4ad55fffb87b4eb658708f0de8f874ebc43253129d89999500d13886c

Thank you, glad to hear it worked out for you!

Ashitank: that means it's still working?

I think it is good for me for this time.

The following Paypal email addresses are bouncing.

escalations@paypal.com
complaints@paypal.com
appeal@paypal.com
appeals@paypal.com
moldenburg@paypal.com

Thanks for the update.

I sent an email to Paypal on Sept 19th (too late I guess) and got the same canned response of being past 45 days.

I have over $5k pending with BFL and will never even get close to paying off the initial purchase price so I contacted my credit card company (Chase Ink Business card) and they said timeframe doesn't matter as long as I can document BFL's change in terms.  Does anybody have a link to the page (or maybe a screenshot) where they showed the estimated ship date for orders placed around March.  I think at that time the lead-out was guessing 2-3 months.  It's approaching 7 months now so if I can produce proof they failed to deliver and show they changed their refund policy my CC should follow through.

I am just gonna leave this here, so that people can use it to point out that many agreed to...probably nothing.

Try this http://web.archive.org/web/*/http://www.butterflylabs.com

I got some strange correspondence from PayPal today. 

"We have concluded our investigation into your case and have decided in your favor."

"We were able to recover $100.00 USD and this amount has been credited to you.  Please allow five business days for this adjustment to be posted."

"If you are due any additional funds, we will make our best effort to recover the balance from the seller."

"If the seller's account has insufficient funds to complete the refund owed to you, please be assured that we will take appropriate action against the seller's account, which may include limitation of the seller's account privileges."

An additional claim for the original $163 Jalapeno order also appeared in my PayPal account today.  Nothing has hit my credit card yet, and I'm a little worried that last line might mean there isn't any money to refund to me.  We'll see how it goes.

Was this from emailing the two addresses posted by OP?  Or did you get through to someone else to make this happen?

Yes write a e-mail to the 2 address posted in OP.

Try below e-mail template , some made it here & I used it to get refund within 12 hours of writing to paypal.

Hi,

I used PayPal to place a pre-order with Butterfly Labs on xx/xx/xx for $xxx.00.
   
This order has still not been filled. 

I politely requested a refund on xx/xx/xx and was declined on xx/xx/xx.

I filed Dispute xxxxxxxxxxx.  This dispute was closed for being outside the 45-day window.

The seller has violated your terms of service which clearly state that the seller "Guarantees shipment within 20 days from the date of purchase".

The seller is continuing to accept pre-orders for a product that they can not ship within any reasonable amount of time. In fact, they do not even pretend to be honoring your 20-day limit.

I have been a PayPal customer for past few years.  While I realize that this payment is beyond the 45-day limit, I believe PayPal should honor my request for a refund as the seller is still using PayPal to receive pre-order payments in a manner that clearly violates your terms of service. 

Many people may be harmed financially by this seller if PayPal doesn't step in.

Regards,
xxxxxxxx

For some reason Paypal sent me another message today repeating the exact same thing as the last one.  That they couldn't help me because it had been more than 45 days.

Chad

thank you so much, I forgot about calling BFL bank..Contacted today! Will let you know soon

This happened after I originally sent to the e-mail addresses and PayPal opened a claim giving BFL 10 days to respond.  After 11 days, they were still waiting and I e-mailed them again, mentioning that no response was BFLs method of customer service, and that I'd hope PayPal would reconsider my other claim that had been rejected by the 45 day rule, as BFL beat be out of that money too.

After multiple paypal calls, I personally do no think It will be possible to receive a refund from them. I have been and still am working with a manager to resolve this problem and receive a refund. I have mentioned that fact that they have been selling physical goods on a pre-order basis (for delivery later than 20 days) against Paypals terms of service and am asking for a refund. I also mentioned that I request a refund from BF Labs Inc I was refused saying "all orders are final" even though I have still not received delivery of my orders.

Any other help for my call with her tomorrow would be appreciated.

~Jpmi1

Alright, I'm happy to report that I have received a refund from BFL via Paypal and the money has been credited into my bank account this morning. I'd like to thank everyone on this thread who has commented and shared their points of view on the whole process. Reading the thread was very helpful and rather than wait for the 'never never' and BFL to deliver at some unknown point in the future when mining difficulty has increased exponentially, I'm pleased to have taken the time to read this thread and to open a dispute resolution process with Paypal, who, it has to be said, were excellent and thoroughly professional in all my dealings with them.

A couple of remarks for those people who are still reading and still considering how to go about getting a refund. I cannot comment on what it's like to try to get a refund via Paypal after the 45 days from date of order, what I will say though is that there are plenty of examples on this and other threads where people have succeeded, so go for it, it is possible and it's your money. The dispute resolution process is basically you writing the circumstances of the transaction and non-delivery in 2000 words or less. After looking at some of the suggested templates and some of the observations on this thread, I decided that it would be far better me writing my own letter, rather than using any template. The reason for this is that by writing your own unique correspondence, it's obvious that you've taken the time to write your own portrayal of events, you're not forwarding a cut-and-paste response and you're letting Paypal know that the matter is serious and that you take the matter seriously. It's my gut feeling that many of the people being refused refunds by Paypal are those people you are just pumping off any old crappolla and not giving Paypal anything to work with. Tell the truth as you see it, be accurate with your dates, times, provide a link to Jody's shipping blog showing the delays. Be clear, articulate and tell it how it is. Remember you are in the right. Draft your response so that it's worthy of being actioned and if it doesn't get actioned the first time, be happy enough with what you've written so that you can forward it to more senior management in Paypal if necessary. Most people have been very reasonable, it's BFL that have been entirely unreasonable and broken almost every 'promised delivery timeframe' in the last year. Paypal are well aware of the situation, the refund comes from BFL, you'll get the email to prove it. Paypal will not be footing the bill, so your aim is to write clearly enough to provide enough ammunition that Paypal can insist that BFL offer you a refund. That's the task, that's what your letter to Paypal has to achieve. It's doable, so go do it, it will take less than one hour of your time. How many days, weeks, months have you waited?

Anyway, that's my two cents worth, hopefully it might help in some way.

Once again I'd like to thank everyone who has posted on this thread, if I didn't see this thread I wouldn't have contacted Paypal and I wouldn't have received my refund, so thanks guys, it feels bloody good to get my money back. You can add AUD$529.10 or USD$462.00 to the running total of refunds received.

And lajz99, thanks for spearheading this initiative, please accept this small donation: c13f6e627477dbc6a87866143a0289b81eaae9ec600de8fd2d7257148d38a2ef

Good luck everyone!

:D

Thank you, glad it worked out and great advice!  I'm going to quote some of your post in the OP if you don't mind.

Sure go for it.

Thanks again for all your help, I know I'm not the only person happy that you're doing this.

 :)

Hi guys,

Could you help me?

I have 2 orders with BFL (paid with PayPal around April 2013) that I would like to refund. One is for $308 and the other is for $1,283.

I have a few questions before I proceed.

1. Is it still possible to get a refund? Is it likely or unlikely right now?

2. Will I harm anything with my orders if I fail to get the refund?

3. And lastly, I have a Monarch order that I want to be unaffected despite my refunds on these other orders. Will it be?

1) yes. now more then ever, since BFL cannot keep a single promise. Most of the equipment now delivering is about 2-7 months later than expected. (I ordered in april expecting a jally mid-september, but based on schedule looks like mid-november would have been likely if i didnt get my refund)

2) good chance youll be banned from thier forums (lol)

3) refund your monarch. There is absolutely no reason to beleive that the production and shipping of the vaporware monarch device will be any different from the current failure, and by the expected delivery date (plus or minus 'two weeks') there will be many other options available immediately for similar pricing or less. The monarch pre-orders are an elaborate money-grab to cover the current failure and resulting costs of refunding orders

there's a phone number you can try too: https://www.paypal.com/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=xpt/Help/general/TopQuestion10-outside

Thank you

So I tried this method 8? days ago, and my dispute, emails, and phone calls with PayPal all resulted in me not getting my money back. I have gone through my bank, and a "conditional credit" showed up in my account yesterday after contacting them on the 3rd and explaining the entire situation.

Success? We'll have to see. But I have my money back as of now. We'll see if those bastards try and ship to me.

They replied my mail today. They basically avoid to be involved and declare they have nothing to do with BFL business. Not so cooperative as I hoped.
They cannot help me get refunds from BFL and can take no action for me.

I am in trouble with getting a refund.

I tried the Normal way with PayPal, but that did not help. After that i tried to to get the money back from the credit card company. This not completed til now.

Butterfly Labs now says:
> “It has been sent to the hosting company.”
http://s17.postimg.org/eh2ma5chb/bestaetigung_No_Name.png

If I ask at the Hosting Company they say:

> “I currently do not have your gear, ..”

I assume, that Bfl is acting in pure intention to defraud.

My Order was in July, but the current deliver date is Februay – March. That is what you can see at https://forums.butterflylabs.com/blogs/bfl_jody/

wow, that sounds like a pure and simple lie, since they obviously have not gotten to July orders yet.

You could ask BFL for the tracking number they used to send it to the hosting company... but they probably would lie and use some other tracking number or something.

I did ask BFL for a tracking number, but they did not answer until now.

At what point does the community finally see what BFL is doing, label them as scammers, and simply walk away from their products and let BFL as a company fade off into obscurity?

In my opinion, the sooner that happens, the better.

I think many people have already reached that point individually and hardly a day goes by without additional bad press for BFL. I managed to secure a refund from them and I'll never be dealing with them again.

Has anybody an Idea to contact BFL? Emails do not get answered. I tried the telephone number 1-800-809-MINE (6463) from the web side, but it seams just to be a kind of Voicebox.

Shame this forum lets them keep advertising.. I guess BTC talks..

add another to the list of refunds!  just got this today!  created the paypal refund request on Oct 4, 2013, and got the refund Oct 16, 2013.  will be sending a tip to OP.  to those who want a refund through paypal this is how i got mine.

1. enter a dispute online
2. after it gets rejected for the "out of 45 day" time period
3. log into your paypal acct and go to resolution center and write down your case (change the view to all cases)
4. click contact us at the bottom of page
5. click call us on the right side of the page (should give you a phone number (probably 888-221-1161) with a one-time code
6. call it and enter your code when it asks you
7. say case resolution
8. say no (to ebay purchase)
9. say existing
10. say yes and enter the dispute/claim ID.
11. when they give you the status of the claim say agent.
12. when the agent comes on the line tell him the deal with BFL (fraud, pre-orders, wont let you cancel pre-order, wont refund, cant give you a date when your item will ship, etc).  tell them to look at this company's history of complaints and refunds from paypal.  ask them to process a refund.  they issued me a new case ID for this.
13. wait the 10 days and when BFL doesnt respond to them (cause they wont) call paypal back and go through the same deal as above and get an agent on the line.
14. they will review and close the case and refund you.


*************************************************************************************************
We have completed our investigation for the following claim:
 
Transaction Details
------------------------------
Seller's Name: BF Labs Inc.
Seller's Email: office@butterflylabs.com Seller's Transaction ID: 3GGxxxxxxxxxxx933

Transaction Date: Mar 4, 2013
Transaction Amount: -$683.00 USD
Invoice ID: 100019393
Your Transaction ID: 3XAxxxxxxxxxxx32A
Case Number: PP-002-xxx-xxx-xx1

Buyer's Transaction ID: 3XAxxxxxxxxxxx32A
------------------------------
 
We have decided this case in your favor and you will receive a full refund in your PayPal account within the next 3-5 days.
*************************************************************************************************

PayPal has business sense. Lets just say they can't get blood money from the BFL stone then PayPal just likely pay everyone's BFL refund claims and avoid bad publicity.

And the refunds keep coming...

Has anyone from the UK successfully received a refund outside of the 45 day limit (i.e. with no way to raise a dispute online)? If so, how?

I called them a couple of times and was unceremoniously shown the door. If I could demonstrate others in the same position had received refunds, I might have better luck.

Thanks

scotjam

Now I got an answer from BFL. The answer message was send to the finance institute, the answer below was send to me:

This method did not work for me, but my CC company helped me   ;D    I was lucky, you need to contact your CC company within 4 month of the purchase date or else... (i'm not sure what happens). The CC company gave me my refund within a week, but now I just need to wait 6 weeks, and not sign for the package or they will take back the refund. I also told BFL to not bother sending it since its way past the 2 months delivery date, so my item is "on hold"  :)

I tried your steps exactly per how you have them listed out and no success for me. No matter what I said to back up my claim the woman refused to escalate my claim. She said even if she did re-open the claim, the system would detect it as a duplicate and close it out due to being over 45 days. I said I had a friend (you) who purchased his at the same time I did and he got his claim approved yesterday and she said she could not understand how this could be so without having the claim in front of her. She asked her senior and the senior gave the same answer. This is the 2nd customer service person who has told me they cannot do it. I bought my 2 BFL orders in April of 2013 with money in my PayPal balance. Did you use a bank account or credit card through PayPal as the payment processor? Or was it also directly from funds in your PayPal account?

No luck here :(

Help.

If you got approved I don't see why I can't.

What you need is a transaction ID from finlof.

Only then can you push them to do something they ordinarily wouldn't do. You just have to provide the excuse for them to do their job.

Contact him privately and get the guy to send you a transaction ID that shows the refund. Then if you get your's get...him (or you both can contribute) and provide transactions ID's. Then, we can build up a small list that people can reference against. Lets open up those flood gates of justified refunds.

Below is the email I sent to Paypal that resulted in a Paypal-initiated refund.  The content is what lajz99 suggested, and I did not write anything about BFL or their personnel being shady, scammy, fraudulent or criminal, unlike the sample letter that someone published in another website.
-------------------------------------

Subject: Request for assistance for non-delivering merchant

Mr. Marcus,

Greetings!  I would like to bring to your attention a transaction that has been troubling me for the first time since I started using Paypal.

On May X, 2013, I placed an order with a merchant named BF Labs Inc., and paid using Paypal for a total of $X.00 (transaction ID # x ).  BF Labs manufactures bitcoin mining devices, and had just started shipping their long-awaited units that have been apparently ordered by many other customers.

On August X, I requested for a refund from BF Labs because of their erratic and un-estimateable shipping schedule -- their COO had been announcing different shipping targets throughout the period, pushing shipping completion dates later and later.  I had requested for a refund, which I thought would help in reducing their backlog, and because it was to my knowledge that they were processing refund requests in July.  But I got a response on August x that they no longer allowed refunds, and they cited FTC mail order merchandise rules in denying refund requests.  I did read up on that particular FTC rule, and it is my understanding that their failure to ship within 30 days allows me to cancel the order, but I am stuck right now because it is beyond Paypal's 45-day rule for buyer protection, and BF Labs is sticking to a no-refunds position and refuses to explain their understanding of the FTC rule further.

I hope that you can assist me with this concern, as it is quite unfair that a merchant can hold on to my funds when they cannot tell me definitively when they will ship my products more than 4 months after I ordered it.

For more details, I can be reached by email at this address, or I can call back a U.S. phone number if a message is left for me at x.

Thank you for your attention.

- X

----------------------------------------------
Below is Paypal's response.
----------------------------------------------

Dear X,

Thank you for reaching out to PayPal regarding your concerns with your Butterfly Lab transactions.  We take situations like this very seriously and are pleased to inform you we have been in direct communication with Butterfly Labs and your payment has been refunded.

If your original payment was funded with a credit card, the refund will be returned to your credit card.  If you funded the payment via your bank account or PayPal balance, the funds will be returned to your PayPal balance.

Thank you for being a valued customer!

Sincerely,
PayPal

That is a good idea and exactly what I tried. Finlof gave my his transaction number in a private message. I called back PayPal and unfortunately the customer service rep said he couldn't look into his account without you him the line.

He also asked how did you pay for your order? Was it with your PayPal balance (money actually sitting in your paypal account) or was it with PayPal using a direct bank transfer, or with PayPal using a credit card? He said this may be why yours was approved and mine wasn't.

This is very important: Which of the above 3 methods did you use to pay?

PayPal transactions made with money actually sitting in your PayPal balance will not be refunded after 45 days no matter what, per him.

So in a way, I got screwed over because I had the money in the first place. If i had paid with a credit card or had to wire money from my bank account through PayPal, I would have been able to reverse it.

BTCscraper, did you pay BFL with money in your PayPal balance at the time, or did you have to transfer money from your bank account using PayPal, or did you use a credit card through PayPal? It seems this is the deciding factor whether they will esclate and refund the claim or not.

Only 6.77% of my payment was PP balance, the rest was CC.  I got refunded everything.

In contrast to kill-switch's PP situation, I need PP because I am outside the US and US merchants usually do not accept non-US cards.  PP works when the merchant does not block non-US PP accounts, like BFL gladly did until they stopped accepting PP altogether.

Interesting. I am starting to suspect that those who are successfully getting their refunds are the ones who did not pay with the money that was sitting in their PayPal account. I suspect they either used a credit card or bank transfer from within PayPal.

nope your screwed with bank xfer ,,,what I did....(tell me diff please!) only direct cc and paypal or combo of paypal w/cc

by the by my 2nd Saturn order from knc that would have probably shipped next week they allowed me to cancel because 1 day late 16th...seemed prudent with the way things are going PH wise in btc world ..they physically chased it down for me customer service and pulled it off the line...it was in processing what do you think bfl would have done ...was very impressed 2 hrs after email saying I was gonna get refunded it was in my paypal account..and it was beyond 45 days etc..already in processing it would have been easier to just tell me it was too late.Seems at least in customer service area they really do want "repeat custmomers " as their motto.

The Jupiter unit I was gonna keep anyway shipped 15th got it today 18th..is is hashng around 538gh as we speak...so thanks to knc which gave me "gratis' 138gh extra then they planned when I bought it JULY 1st my 125gh loss to BFL don't sting so much yeah still waiting on 65gh from my april 12th orders ...and got the monarch upgrade....neither imho will I see.....I don' t see bfl making it w/o drastic changes at the top imho


and I see bfl still is only taking btc and wire xfer more or less for their new cards how they are gonna survive against KNC who may be in panic mode right now but at least "intent" wise try to make an effort....it was very refreshing

anyway after this stuff from april till now gonna take a break and mine....too much drama....so I've managed to scramble out of the swamp with the same gh I expected more or less if bfl 125gh had come thru and knc was still shipping 400gh units.....sometimes getting out alive is all you can do...i'm not gonna call this a WIN but man after all this drama with BFL and asic's being dumped on market in mass (someone told me knc has 20% of the hash rate nowa/???)

I am gonna call it a DRAW and it is probably more then I deserve and/or expected 1 month ago ....(feel like doing this)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8f7wj_RcqYk

Searing, when I checked last week, BFL no longer accepted Paypal for the 65nm devices.  Around 2-3 weeks ago, Cointerra also stated that they stopped accepting Paypal because Paypal no longer wanted to accept payments for pre-order miners.  If KnC still accepts Paypal, that's because they have already demonstrated on-time (or almost-on-time) delivery, and also provide refunds.  I think KnC was also forced to accept cancellations after someone started complaining about them in another thread (and also Cointerra, in another thread).  Only BFL is too thick-skinned to allow refunds.  I do hope you get your Monarch, even if BFL uses Cointerra's or someone else's chips.

More than being "thick-skinned" it is criminal or at the very least a scumbag move and no one should BUY anything from them in the future.

Yes, it is funny. If you now take a look at the BFL payment options, you will only find the following sentence:


May be they hat to much trouble with PayPal.

I got a refund from paypal money

No, sadly. My PayPal account is set up so that PayPal draws money from may bank account (through the German "Lastschrift"), but every phone call and e-mail exchange had the same result. "Outside 45-day window. Nothing we can do. Good-bye."

Was it a while ago that you got the refund? I'm thinking PayPal ran out of money in BFL's account some time after you got your refund

To everyone who received a paypal refund with lajz99's help.

Please support the rest of the community and visit the thread below.

Just because you have a positive outcome does not mean you can not still file a complaint with the FTC.

This is your opportunity to give something back, please spare 10 minutes of your time to complete the form.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=319522.0 (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=319522.0)

Note : I had difficulties accessing the website from outside the US and had to use a proxy plugin with firefox. (web proxies did not work for me.)

Added to OP as well.

Many Thanks  ;D

I am having some bad luck with paypal.

My understanding from this post is that no sale has taken place because they have not shipped anything.
can someone send me that link that a sale takes place only when an item gets shipped, I remember seeing it somewhere on the forum.


But Paypal is insisting that the 45 day rule applies.

What are the contacts in paypal that I can call ?
That Marcus guy never replied to my email.

Any advice in how to handle this though the bank.?
It was a debit card linked to my paypal account.

Any methods that work for getting BFL refunds.

Finally I have to say PayPal sucks, BLF is an obious scam and they do nothing about.

Thanks

I applied and got my refund on Sep-14th. I was among the first few to get the refund.
Thanks to OP.

However, even after almost 2 months, i received an email from BFL that they shipped my Jala today.
Has anyone else gone through this problem.?

Will they be able to charge me again or file a exception with paypal for my refund and claim that i be charged for their product.?
Any suggestion / help will be appreciated.

Thanks,

If the dispute hasn't been closed/finalized then they could use your acceptance of the package to nullify your dispute.

Thanks for your reply. It has been closed. As i said, i received the refund within 16 hours of sending the email to paypal on Sep-14th.
Everything was paid using my CC though paypal.
I even withdrew that amount to my bank account over a month ago.

Am now concerned that they might show the shipping confirmation to paypal now and advise paypal to charge my card again (my card / bank account is on file with paypal) for the amount of jala.

Can they do that without my authorization.?

I have from bfl labs tracking number does not work
Have anyone have the same with me?

No, if the dispute is finished then there is nothing they can do.  They can't just ship people stuff they don't want and then charge them for it.

What they can't do legally and what occurs in reality seem far removed from each other these days.  Unless you want to deal with 25 phone calls telling BFL not to send you to collections for their mistake, just refuse the package and have it returned to shipper.

It took me a week to get them to respond to an RMA on a day 1 Single - how much time you think it would take to deal with them if you kept it?  (I would wager closer to weeks or even months).

Agreed. I don't have any intentions of keeping it. That is the reason i wanted some advise on how to handle it / send it back.
I already have close to 200 GH of hashing power and i don't think that this extra 7 gh/s wouldn't make much of a difference.

I would rather reject it than keep it and deal with them.

This is easy for International customers.

The customs form ask's for the value of the Item. BFL will state the purchase price, this is no longer the value of the item. A lie.

Sorry mister customs officer, the value on the item is incorrect, I am not paying that, Please return to sender.

I currently am in the process of doing this.

Hey guys, Please check out this web form and if you have a few minutes, please fill it out with your experiences with Butterfly Labs Inc, it will be forwarded to the Pennsylvania Attorney General as well as admitted as evidence in my case: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1ZRH841TzAhv8Bu7pcEW8id3UMAsO5iDvxUgw0LqZA0k/viewform

I'll be providing updates as the case moves forward.
Thank you

Paypal also declined to accept my refund claim and suggested I called Amex - the card I used to fund the paypal purchase. Fortunately I was just within a 6 month window and despite declining on a previous call Amex decided to accept the disputed charge. That was on September 23rd. BFL had 8 Weeks to respond to Amex and they did not so the chargeback was awarded to me today. Total was for 12 Single SC's 60's so not a trivial amount of money. During the process BFL shipped all 12 singles and I had to refuse them. That was tough as the chargeback was not completed. In the end it worked out and I am now at "breakeven".

Good riddance BFL. I hope you appear as a footnote in Bitcoin history as the ASIC company that sucked the most and in the end, proved to be completely irrelevant. As for the individuals involved, you are already irrelevant to my reality - not that you give a shit.

Awesome, glad you got your $ back!

Might they not give a shit about you or anyone else they sold to because they are sociopaths?

Hmmmmm - things are not always what they seem:

no refund and I am now back to BFL with my (ass)hat in hand

Here is a little cautionary tale about chargebacks and the lesson learned:

I ordered a total of 12 Single SC 60's in March of 2013.

Waited, waited.... watched and waited. Due to the opacity of the approach of reporting shipments by paid date, my general discontent and getting caught up in the charegback wave of August / September I actively pursued charging back my orders which were made via PayPal and funded by American Express. I think PayPal ran out of BFL holdback funds so that was a dead end and they suggested I try Amex one more time. I did and to my great surprise they accepted the dispute even though it had passed the 90 day cut off. I thought they were doing a great favour and that I would be sure to "win" because of all the issues...... What they failed to mention is that they had no recourse to the merchant after 90 days and that their role would only be that of an intermediary in the process of communicating with BFL. The disputed charges were accepted on September 25th.

BFL shipped my first order of one miner on October 11th. Ten more miners were shipped Fedex overnight 6 days later and the last one was shipped not long after. In consultation with Amex I refused the orders. In the end, all 12 miners were refused and returned to BFL. On December 6th it was finally confirmed that nothing was going to come of the charegeback (of course) and that I was fully and completed F'd. There were many situations where Amex could have cleared the air - at one point they even stated that the chargeback was awarded in my favour because the merchant (BFL) had not contacted them in the 8 weeks since the dispute was accepted. I was happy at that point that it was finally concluded. Three days later I learned in a follow up call that, no, the matter was not concluded at all.

In the end I am now back to BFL with my (ass)hat in hand trying to sort out what I owe them for additional shipping and just move on. Clearly this whole escapade has cost me dearly. The tale is not one that will apply anymore to most people as BFL long ago stopped accepting PayPal and credit cards etc. Nevertheless, I thought it might be good information to anyone else who is pending a decision from their credit card company regarding a chargeback. The 90 day cutoff is not some arbitrary limit - the company has no way to collect your money. Move on - take your gear and start mining. Tomorrow will be a better day.

In conclusion, I maintain that I made the best decision I could at the time with the information I had. If Amex had been more transparent in its process then the outcome would have been very different. Whatever the case I am making good with BFL and working to secure my miners as fast as I can. Thanks BFL_Emily for your support in this process......

No rear view mirrors in Bitcoin land..... petal to the metal. ┗(°0°)┛

Damn, sorry to hear that man...   :-\

Yeah sorry to hear about your problems...if it is any consolation I did the "forced upgrade" to a monarchs route ...have 900gh supposedly coming in Jan/Feb (yeah right) so at 8k in BFL it likely would not have mattered anyway imho.....I'm also gonna be in your boat soon we can bail $$$ into the Sea together......I doubt that BFL will get anything out to me before middle of March at the earliest (I was an early monarch order) and when the stuff does arrive (the 300gh a bit later I imagine) it will likely be 400gh in reality instead of 600gh monarch and too little too late..with the usual BFL 'it is not our fault and your risk" arguments....

so don't feel too bad a brick "now" or a brick "later" I'll meet you in the same rowboat soon enough imho

not sure if this helps but from past BFL issues it is likely correct

Searing

I'm going to get delivery asap and start mining and ebay them. Seems people are out of their mind for gear on ebay so who am I to argue. I guess it will be me who is going to have to deal with the whole chargeback issue perhaps..... my how the worm turns.

Yea man, you'll get good $ on ebay.  I haven't had any chargebacks on 30+ transactions on USB's...

I'd take one off your hands but you're better off on ebay.   ;D

Email TigerDirect and let them know what you think about their partnership with Butterfly Labs!!

http://www.tigerdirect.com/sectors/Help/email.asp


If anyone has a great email they put together please feel free to post for others to use!