Bitcoin Forum

Prologue

At the beginning of 2018 there was “a 51% attack (https://en.bitcoinwiki.org/wiki/51%25_attack)” on the MONA coin network

During that time there was double spending, which resulted in coins that should not have existed and appeared on Livecoin; where they were sold.

Sometime after this event, this stock exchange realized what happened, but it was too late. So, they permanently blocked the wallets for deposits and withdrawals of this currency.

Thus, begins my problem. Back in 2018 I bought 750 MONA coins at this exchange (at that time, the equivalent of 0.30btc) and after a while the bitcoin exchange rate fell dramatically. The MONA coin followed that pattern as well. At that time, like everyone else, I floated in the euphoria of a non-stop growing market and did not pay much attention to this situation. I was thinking for myself that this was just another price correction and I would just wait until everything recovers again, especially since the MONA coin looked pretty good and promising to me at that time.

However, the exchange rate began to recover only during this summer (2019). I was concerned about the problem of withdrawing my MONA coin from Livecoin, because their exchange rate did not reflect the market rate and the coin’s wallet was blocked. This made me think more about this situation.

What really happened?

After the attack, financial claims against the MONA developers were made and deposit/withdrawal option was restricted only by the Livecoin exchange. All other exchanges remained unrestricted. Strange, isn't it?

This exchange immediately blamed the MONA team for all its troubles and made a claim to them for financial losses. If you read the 51% attack link I provided above, you will understand that due to the low capacities and the initial stage of the emergence of the cryptocurrency industry, all currently existing coins are subject to this problem.

Not everything is as bad as it seems, because this process can be controlled! The solution lies in the simple control of the network. All exchanges that prioritize security of their users' funds control the network of coins that are sold on their exchange by program code. Computers monitor the network 24 hours a day to determine its reliability and detect abnormal activity. This is done by every other exchange except Livecoin, who, judging by this problem, were not familiar with such an automated security method.

To this day, Livecoin’s exchange system is not up to the standards of other exchanges. For example, making a deposit on Livecoin results in a 4x delay (4 hours vs. the standard 1 hour) before seeing said deposit reflected in your balance.

As I stated earlier, Livecoin blocked the wallets of this coin for any deposit/withdrawal operations and made a claim to the developers of MONA for compensation of their losses. –In fact, Livecoin itself caused their own loss there was no control over the network. To blame MONA for the loss is incredible impudence.

Now, let's try to understand on what rights they were using MONA software? They were using it based on the MIT license (https://github.com/monacoinproject/monacoin/blob/master-0.16/COPYING).

Since they used the product at their own risk, they should have done all possible safety checks at the program level, prior to using this product because they are fully responsible for the user’s money. Unfortunately, this is just a fairy tale written by them in their rules for costumers’ mental comfort. Although the MIT license claims that the users are fully responsible for all the problems and damages arising from the use of this program code, Livecoin is still blaming someone else for their losses. This is simply unbelievable!

https://i.ibb.co/2kZ5bdB/d78ded484342499fa871c5970f8f39db.jpg

So, what happened to me?

Having fully realized the danger of the situation, I requested the possibility of withdrawing all my funds from Livecoin. However, they sent me to solve my request with the developer. Yes, you understood me correctly – they sent a user, whose funds they have lost through their own fault, to solve the issue with the developer! At that moment I could not believe this and had to reread their answer several times.

https://i.ibb.co/SJXc2Vq/Rukalico-1-26145253-1024x683.jpg

After I have been submitting tickets to them regarding this issue, but they threatened me with a low priority of answering to my further inquiries, if I continue to ask them such questions. Meanwhile, there were more problems arising, and less and less methods of solving them.

Realizing that nothing could be achieved through the dialog with them - I turned to the public by publishing a post about this situation in the Russian branch in this forum and created a claim on the website bestchange.ru.

Can you guess what happened 10 minutes later? I am sure that you will be able to guess from the first try, considering all the information from above. My account with all funds was blocked on this exchange! I believe that somewhere in this world there is an age of cryptocurrency, progress and development, while here, there is a century of unlimited lawlessness and gangsterism continues and Livecoin is a vivid example to that.


The blocking occurred on 06/18/2019 and my account remains blocked to this day. They do not react to any of my questions about the reasons for blocking it. So far, I only received 2 replies from them, in which there is not a single word about the reason for blocking my account. In their second reply they threatened me with taking all my money away, if I continue to violate their rules. I repeat that I was not able to get an answer to which rules I have violated. They persistently ignore this question.

Drawing my own conclusions and thinking that the cause for blocking my account might be related to published correspondence between me and them, I cannot attach the screenshots of our conversation with them and I apologize for that. I still hope that they will return my money someday, although my hope is disappearing day by day.

Many thanks to all of you for any assistance and support provided, and I also ask you to support the flag I created. Together we can make rogues work honestly, because they have no place on the cryptocurrency market!

Please support my flag (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=trust;flag=308)

Livecoin.net exchange is a SCAM (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=2017244.40)

LiveCoin Scamming! (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=2765392.0)

 LiveCoin - ETH Scam Confirmed (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=2227916.0)


they have a bad reputation, next time research before use these exchanges and avoid shady exchanges like this

Maybe including screenshots of your communication with their support in the OP will be good so that it's easier to know how it all started.

I think you should PM the representative person LiveCoin here

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=462136

Or post about it on there announcement thread here

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1151791.0

Btw, I find this exchange somewhat shaddy after going through a lot of accusations against them.

Hope this helps!

I went ahead and have PM'ed Livecoin about it to give a response here. However your accusation also lacks proofs so I suggest giving some deposit txid's , chat screenshots with their support representative like logfiles said.

Any idea how much you lost?

you will have to place your claim and wait for DT on this forum. follow scam acc format for best results. the DT ONLY has power for this forum and looks like avirunes has replied already here.. work with him on this in my opin.
DT here will not move without proof usually
personally i like livecoin, tho,  ANY exchanges is CAPABLE of selective scamming i think

Thanks to everyone who responded to my problem!
I have the only one answer from them

I tranfer in my account livecoin PPC coin https://chainz.cryptoid.info/ppc/tx.dws?ddba58bffdd5617b5d2b808749c583a1a3853531a74c58fe6a942ada44b1c9d2.htm equivalent 0.08btc
Also Last year I bought about 750 MONA coins equivalent 0.3btc on this exchange, which they refused to return to me, after that I published a public complaint about them here - bestchange.ru and after that they blocked me in 10 minutes.

Guys, I had to delete all the correspondence with them, because they began to threaten me with complete blocking and loss of my money!

It turned out that they had such a point of the rules

but before that there was no such point!

so they include another new paragraph of the rules


What's going on there?!

they lost my money, blocked me for telling you about it and giving evidence, took the remaining money and threatened me with their loss without giving me the opportunity to tell you anything! I don’t know what to do now, if I don’t say anything, they will continue to ignore my demands, if I speak about it in public - they begin to threaten me with the loss of all my funds!
:(

Guys, I hope for your support, without it they will continue to deceive and steal. Any help is important, any advice, thanks!

I just checked the 'wayback machine' website (to see if they actually added that paragraph in the 'Terms' recently) and it seems like that small paragraph has been there for quite a while: https://web.archive.org/web/20181004155211/https://www.livecoin.net/en/useragreement so, i'm not sure what you mean by "before".

https://ibb.co/HgqCJNr
same terminology 100% yes?
but if it is normal for you when you have been robbed and you must be silent about it and you are not ready to assert your rights, then this exchange is for you, there are no problems!

Whether that clause was there recently or from before is irrelevant, it is illegal for them to refuse to return your funds to you. That's theft.

The most they can do for your supposed contravention of their T&C's is to bar you from using their services. They are not, under any circumstances, entitled to claim ownership of your balance on their platform as a result.

the hell are you talking about? I've never said "it's normal" nor have I said that such Terms are fair, I was just trying to see if they actually changed the "Terms" recently.

Don't release your anger on me, it's not my fault that you didn't conduct a proper research (like @Slow death pointed out) about this exchange before using it.

Sorry i so nerves now, I didn’t expect anything like that from them, I worked with them for so long, never suspected that they were ordinary swindlers and now they are trying to steal my money for publicizing information about their mistakes!

in 2017 I had turnover of $ 100,000 per month, they received their percent from each deals, as well as percent for the withdrawals and now they are so bad with me

2 weeks have passed, but they still have not told me the reason for blocking my account, they just wrote 2 times yesterday that I’m breaking their rules, but nothing concrete and if I continue to violate them, they will take my money. I decided that they meant the publication of their messages, so now I’m afraid to show them to you.

 :-(

OP, you can create a flag  (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=trust;addflag=462136) against LiveCoin if they are refusing to return your money. This will warn others and will put pressure on them to give you what you have on deposit with them.

thanks, that's good advice

The OP has created a flag against Livecoin:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=trust;flag=308

Since they continue to ignore me and illegally withhold my money, I decided to publish the full history of developments in the main post, I will do it today or tomorrow

that's incredibly shady! i've never seen anything like that in a TOS before. account termination is one thing perhaps, but threatening to steal the user's money?

i was thinking about using them to convert some bitsend at some point. maybe i'll avoid that now.

Today I received a letter from them and realized that they would not return anything, and at the same time they did not name the cause of the block, but they said that I myself should look for it in their rules, this is simply incredible idiocy! I do not leave feeling that I communicate with a child or with a crazy person on the other side. But I do not have an unequivocal answer from them that they are taking everything from me, so I still can not publish their answers, but I posted a full description of what happened in the first message, please read, this is very interesting

Support

Hi guys! I have some news from livecoin support.
They wrote that in my posts I lie about them and thus violate the terms of the user agreement! And so I have to delete all my messages so that I can get my money back! Is this normal, and should a decent exchange behave like this? o_o
I have a feeling that they are constantly coming up with new rules that I break!
If I lie to everyone, then why has their representative not yet appeared here and announced this?
And I will tell you why they are not here! They can say nothing in their defense, except for their stupid rules, from which everyone is shocked. They can’t say anything about their fault in losing Mona. They understand that they have no excuses, but they have enough impudence to continue to intimidate and accuse me!

If a Livecoin representative comes here and proves that I am really guilty of something and that I am a liar, then I will not demand a refund and will delete everything I wrote!

Trash continues...

Even if you were lying, this would not be an acceptable reason for them to withhold your money. No, it is not normal for a business to act this way.

Why aren't they responding? Livecoin has been online on bitcointalk and he has probably seen his this thread as it was linked to in his own topic.

I'm supporting the flag (for now).

I think they have a policy of not discussing anything like this here at bitcointalk. Just like they state in their thread that they won't respond to any questions as they only post updates.

I have sent them a PM about this though and we'll see.

It seems their strategy is to ignore accusations, and allow their supporters to ignore and distract from evidence of theft, and scamming.

::)

they can answer if they have something to say
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=2359799.0

If they start answering here, everyone will realize that they have lost the coins of their users, and many will begin to demand a return, but they do not want to do that. Until the last moment, I did not publish a full post about the whole problem until I was threatened in my emails.
They frighten me with the loss of all funds so let them now have a loss

I'm supporting izoomrud to his accusations but more proof of conversations must be shown, @izoomrud please don't be scared to fight what you think is right. Based on what I've seen, it seems that they can always change their user agreement anytime. I don't see any point on what they've said that you must not disclose anything about them, if they are fair enough and doing the right thing then why?

Negative feedback that cause commotion and has been solve will be a good thing to their exchange but dodging their responsibility to respond clearly is a pure negligence.

It's much better for LiveCoin to explain their side also and stop ignoring.

I need to wait for their final statement that they will not return anything to me, or their answer here. This is necessary so that they could not lie, because they are inadequate in correspondence with me, they constantly threaten me that they will take everything away, without giving concrete evidence of violations, only offenses.

although, okay, as long as I can show something, there is only a chronology of the messages he sent, there is no sense in translating messages without replies, I will do it later

https://i.ibb.co/K2pmPF6/hronology.jpg

Communication and relationship between client and Exchange is regulated by User agreement, which every user accepts at registration. There is no way to register without accepting the user agreement. However, rarely, some clients ignore and flagrantly breach the User agreement.

For the first time of violation of rules, we just warn client, but in case of repeatedly violations, account may be blocked for verification and further investigation. But, even in this case, we allow to withdraw all funds after the removing of false information and consequences caused by this publication. In some cases, verification may be required by the security team.

This is exactly what happened to the said client. This client created a ticket with a demand to enable withdrawal of MONA for his account, what is absolutely impossible because of the attack on the MONA network and public refusal of the developers to bear responsibility for that. We replied to the client with the explanation regarding MONA asset, but he decided to start spreading false allegations, publicly accusing the Exchange of fraud, and thus misleading the other clients.

The client is clearly provoking a conflict, ignoring all suggested options of settlement. Earlier this client said that all information, violating the user agreement had been removed, but the investigation found out that, on the contrary, there is much more such information now. All further discussions of this issue will be held solely with the client and only after eliminating all negative effects.

You have no right to keep the funds regardless of what "information" the customer published. You can terminate your service to the customer if they violated the user agreement but you need to return their money.

"Negative effects"?

Your Personal Text says "LiveCoin - is a modern stock exchange".

You guys aren't acting like professionals but like roadside parsley sellers.

Both Hhampuz and pandukelana2712 (who is wearing a LiveCoin signature) both are opposing the flag.

It appears that signature campaign that pays both these members has benefits beyond the advertising.

FYI, it's customary to pay the customer his money before expecting negative public complaints to be removed. He's using this as leverage to get what is rightfully his. I see nothing wrong with that.

Do you seriously think you can hide behind your terms as a pretense to rob your customers in open sight? Merely stating that you will steal customer funds for breach of terms -- terms which you can and have changed suddenly and without notice -- is not legal justification to do so. The actual damages arising from that alleged breach are not equal to whatever you decide to steal from your customers. I don't know who your legal counsel is, but your actions would not be legally justifiable in any respectable court of law.

I recommend you tread carefully here.

     This seems highly irregular on how your exchange is handling the 51% attack on MonaCoin over a year ago. I realize that you tried to get the Monacoin developers to compensate your exchange for the loss incurred by double spends/invalidated coinbase coins; however it is abundantly clear that they are not going to compensate anybody. I really do not see how this is the development team's fault, any way. All POW coins are vulnerable to a 51% attack, although some coins have a more robust network of miners, so a 51% attack is not feasible.
   I read your term of services, and to handle such situations, you give two possibilities. One was to go after the development team. However, Monacoin was not an ICO and it it did not start out with a premine. Therefore, even if they were responsible, I do not see how they would have the deep pockets required to compensate exchanges/pools/individuals for an act done by a malicious miner. Your second option was to socialize the loss. However, the fact that your exchange continued to allow people to trade this coin probably has made implementing this option a nightmare. I find the fact that your exchange did not disable the trading on this coin when you disabled the wallet highly irregular.
  I realize that the 51% attack was not your fault either. However, now you are in a situation where you are holding your client's Monacoins hostage. Your exchange should have disabled trading and socialized the loss, rather than let this mess get even more complicated after a whole year.

Edit:Supporting this flag. Livecoin should have implemented the second remedy, that I have bolded, in a timely manner.

 

There is also an option of staying away from shitcoins but that means saying no to easy money to be made from listing announcements and listing fees.

You can write anything in your user agreement. It doesn't necessarily make it legal or ethical. You could write "customers who write bad things about us get executed". It would not be legal and would not absolve you of legal consequences. It would also not be ethical and would have community condemnation. Whether something is a lie is sometimes subjective.

Ok, you won, I was just a fool for writing this and I am sorry!
You thought it would be like this, right?! Do I really see this, or am I dreaming?


I brought all the evidence of their guilt in losing money when attacking Mona’s network (you can read about this in my first post). What is wrong with this world?
Could you tell us right here that you are not to blame for this and bring the evidence, as I did so before!
This problem was related to the poor security of your exchange, and not due to the vulnerability of the Mona code, as it happened with Monero! Since you call me a liar, I demand you to present some proof of your innocence and my guilt immediately!
What is going on here?!
Can you please explain to us how there is no fault of yours in everything that happened, even though I have clear evidence that supports the opposite?
All professional exchanges constantly evaluate the state of coin networks. They created a “trust rating” and require certain amount of “proofs” based on that rating. Why your exchange requires different amount of “proofs” for BTC and SHIFT? Because they have different safety network and processing powers. More processing power means higher reliability.
Why no other exchanges have similar problems? Why do they all continue to work with this coin?
Why no other exchanges had any problems with Monero, even though there were problems with a code vulnerability that Mona did not have?

Any coin is at risk for an “attack 51%”, therefore the exchange must monitor the network status continuously! You are responsible to keep our money safe; otherwise why do we even need to use your services if you are constantly losing your customers’ funds?
https://i.ibb.co/XksFrbk/Charlle-Lee.jpg

Now, I would like to talk about how you are treating me.

I have not received a single warning! My account was blocked immediately after I published my first post on this forum and a post on bestchange.ru! Why do you even try to lie publicly? You should understand that I will prove your lies by showing the screenshots of our communication, so why are you doing this?! Now I believe, I have a right to post the screenshots to expose your lies.



https://i.ibb.co/Tmd8D5J/me1.jpg
What is the reason for blocking my account? I would like to know if there is any specific violation.

https://i.ibb.co/T2kfDRD/li1.jpg
Hello. Your account is suspended for violations of the user agreement.

https://i.ibb.co/njwYyL9/me2.jpg
I would like to withdraw all my money

https://i.ibb.co/31JpCqr/me3.jpg
Or wait until my account is unlocked. I am open to alternative suggestions.

https://i.ibb.co/rsSkKrx/me4.jpg
Return all my funds and continue your investigation!

https://i.ibb.co/QQdv4yV/me5.jpg
Are you planning to continue dialogue with me? Why are you treating your customer like this?

https://i.ibb.co/hKyGMsX/me6.jpg
If you are continuing in this manner, you will lose more, I will make sure of that.

https://i.ibb.co/N9RMNBK/me7.jpg
You must solve this issue if your reputation is important to you.

https://i.ibb.co/X2mjFdX/li2.jpg
Hello. As stated above, we are checking your account for violations of the user agreement. Usually it takes several days to complete all necessary checks, after that users can withdraw their funds and we close the account. Later, there is no possibility of cooperation between us and this user. In case the customer keeps violating the user agreement, it can take longer to make all necessary checks. Moreover, in case of multiple violations or obvious abuse, we can make a decision to permanently block the account according to the user agreement.
- You must solve this issue if your reputation is important to you.
We would like to bring to your attention that any threats are violations of the user agreement that you signed before registering your account. We recommend you reviewing it.

https://i.ibb.co/SPx5pHM/me8.jpg
Looks like you are afraid of something, since you consider a request from your customer as a threat. Of course, you did not forget to count this as another embellished “violation” of mine. Would you be kind enough to tell me what I have violated? I would be happy to terminate our business right now, please return all my funds!

https://i.ibb.co/X3Cbjdz/me9.jpg
Let’s do this: you would simply return all my coins from the account and this issue will be considered resolved. In that case, I would not even care why you blocked my account in the first place and whether it was done lawfully or not. I would withdraw all my complains.

https://i.ibb.co/NL24Nrk/me10.jpg
All violations have been resolved, withdraw my funds


https://i.ibb.co/wJQpz2b/me11.jpg
Do not ignore me and just explain which specific information and from which sources I must delete to fix my mistake. I would like this to be over

https://i.ibb.co/4RDSWBM/li3.jpg
Hello. We checked all information posted by you. The violations were not eliminated, and you are continuing to maliciously violate the user agreement. You have accepted the user agreement rules before registration, therefore you agreed to all sections of this agreement. You will find out what are your violations if you would read it again. In this agreement you will find information regarding losses due to the third partys’ software vulnerability and a late notice (or lack of such) to our services by the developers or representatives cryptocurrency regarding issues with that particular cryptocurrency.
- Please do not ignore my question.
You wrote to us on the weekend and we are not ignoring your question. Further communication may exist only when all the violations will be eliminated completely.

https://i.ibb.co/VTkTQG1/me12.jpg
I read the user agreement again and it looks like I have not violated any rules. I deleted all posted screenshots of my communication with the customer service and now I do not understand what else I should do. It reminds me of a day care, as you are playing charades with me: “guess what….”. If you are ready for a productive dialogue, please tell me specific violations and I will fix them. Overall, it seems to me that you just stole my money and will never give it back to me

https://i.ibb.co/dLrPhH9/me13.jpg
In any case, even if you will steal all my money from me, I won’t leave it alone. I will make sure that you lose 10, 100 and 1000 more times than stole from me. This is not a threat and cannot be considered as such, this is my defense. I will wait another week and will report to the police. I realize that this process is not fast, and they won’t catch you. However, in this situation, it will perfectly suit me if ROSKOMNADZOR will block your website in Russia. Of course, if you are not just bunch of thieves and are ready for further productive communication, I remind you that I am still open to listen to your specific demands.

https://i.ibb.co/tmgKLf6/li4.jpg
Hello. The issue began when you started denying obvious evidence. You have registered on this exchange and agreed to our rules. Afterwards, you began spreading unreliable information regarding our exchange. You have threatened us and accused this exchange publicly by spreading falsified information. Please inform us when all violations are solved, only then we would review your request regarding your account.

https://i.ibb.co/F66ZDX4/me14.jpg
This is an unexpected turn. What exact information is not credible, huh? At least try to refute one piece of information right here, if you are afraid to go publicly. I would like to point out, my well-respected conversation partner, that you can put any bullshit in your rules. For example, “the user must spread his shit all over himself and take a selfie while holding a sign “I am an idiot”, prior to enter you exchange.” This does not mean I must follow this nonsense. You must work by the laws of Russian Federation not your “creations”, since you are working on the territory of this country. I am trying to follow all the appropriate sections of the user agreement, but you can’t make me silent by your lawlessness and stealing my money. Everything that I ever wrote anywhere has zero fiction or misinformation but complete truth. I never exaggerated or lied about anything. Therefore, once more, I DEMAND you to point out to which specific section of the user agreement I violated and let me know where and when it was done. Right now, I am giving you an opportunity to let me know what exactly I need to delete so you can give me MY MONEY back. This complaint will be closed without further claims and investigations and your reputation, which was soiled rightfully, will be recovered.

https://i.ibb.co/Zx3cT4C/li5.jpg
For the most part all your posts have unreliable and false information, which violates the user agreement. Everything written by you must be deleted. You cannot edit or make any changes to your post. You told us before that you’ve deleted your posts, however, upon further inspection we discovered that it was not true. There were more posts published by you. It looks like you are intentionally ignoring our requests and make the process of solving this issue more difficult. Also, before registering your account you have accepted all the sections of the user agreement, not only ones you like. If you disliked some of the sections of this agreement, you should have not signed it and use our services. Currently your account is suspended for further investigation. However, in case of malicious violations of any sections of the user agreement we can decide to block your account permanently. At this time, we have discovered multiple violations on several social media. All these violations must be resolved. If anyone quoted your posts, those quotes must be deleted as well. In case there is no way for you to delete those posts; you must seek help from the customer service support. If we were to find out that you are misleading our customer service representatives again, upon further investigation, your account will be deleted without any chance to recover it.

https://i.ibb.co/MDhvKDP/me16.jpg
I would like to make sure if all funds will be returned to me, including MONA coins.

https://i.ibb.co/qWCcn0g/me17.jpg
- Most of your messages contain noncredible and falsified information which violates the user agreement.
Wow! This is a lie! Just out of curiosity, which section of the agreement prohibits people from telling lies, even though I never lied. So, which one?!
- You mentioned before that you have deleted messages, however, upon further investigation we found out that it is not true. There were even more messages. So, you purposefully ignoring our requests and make the solution of this issue more difficult.
Stop lying and distorting the facts!
1. I have said that I deleted all the quotes by the customer service. Specifically: “All violations are resolved, withdraw all my funds”
2. What kind of f….g “requests”? You never requested me to do anything. You continued to keep silence and ignore my demands, therefore delaying resolution of this issue. If you are going to say right now: “we asked you not to violate our rules”, I will answer this – “this is a kinder garden”. Only now you are asking me to delete everything I ever wrote.
-Currently your account has been suspended for investigation. However, in case of malicious violations of the user agreement we can decide to permanently block your account.
Stop trying to scare me. Do something already .


Now you are saying that I am the one who is provoking a conflict! Please, raise your eyes and look at the picture above! Look how many inquires I sent to you and there was no feedback from you regarding the reasons why my account was blocked. You blocked it without any explanation and ignored all of my following questions for over a week! I had to guess myself that the main reason was published messages between me and your customer service. I deleted them all and told you about it! Only on July 2nd I finally received some information from you that false accusations are the reason of blocking my account!

Honestly, it took me a while to get that information from them. Just listen to what they said to me the first time regarding the reason why blocking my account: “Before registering, you accepted the terms of the user agreement, which means you agreed with the points specified in it. If you read it again, you will see exactly what the violations are.” It is unbelievable, instead of giving me a simple explanation why they did it, they told me to look it up in their rules! Can you imagine this?! Over a week I had no idea why my account was blocked; I was so stressed out and worried that I lost all my money, but they just expect me to look up the reason in their rules! After all that they have guts to tell that it is me who provokes a conflict!

Are you surprised, guys? I warned you before that they are incompetent, and I am also shocked by the way they are communicating with their customers. Why should I delete all my posts, if I haven't lied about anything? Moreover, everything I said is supported by the evidence! So, let's assume that I'm lying (which of course is not true), then based on which section of the rules I am not allowed to do so?! And if there is no such section, then why the hell they blocked my account?!

Please support my flag (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=trust;flag=308) it is very important!

I have been involved in managing altcoin projects before. I know exactly the game you are playing here as I have had it perpetrated on the project I was involved in multiple times, usually by exchanges that failed not long after. You most likely didn't devote enough resources to running enough nodes to secure your own transactions on this network like every reliable and competent exchange does. As a result an event that is a known possibility on pretty much every cryptocoin combined with your own negligence and or misunderstanding (real or feigned) resulted in your exchange suffering losses. You probably don't have any kind of reserves or contingency plan set aside for these purposes, so rather than taking responsibility and correcting your own internal policy and security measures you attempt to blame the development team because they are an easy target and most people don't know enough about the technical aspects to know any better. Temporary freezing of funds in order to do a roll back of some sorts on illegitimate trades is one thing. This is something else based in punitive and fraudulent actions.

The only way I see Livecoin reclaiming their reputation is as follows:

1. Release the frozen funds. If you don't have them either buy them on the open market or issue a secondary internal token exchangeable for the asset that can be traded on the open market, slowly destroying the tokens over time as you buy them back. Of course if you are locking a users account you should be releasing their actual funds, not an internal token as that has no value to some one who can not use the exchange. Acceptance of the secondary token should be voluntary. I would consider a time delay for redemption or an immediate 1:1 token issue to be an acceptable compromise which allows the exchange to make all of the users whole.

2. Stop locking people's funds for posting in violation of your TOS. People not engaged in fraudulent activity themselves should be able to withdraw their funds at any time. Sure you can put this in your TOS. I doubt it is legal but that really depends on your jurisdiction of incorporation. Regardless of your legal right to do so or not, once people hear about this inclusion to your terms of service, your exchange will be over. No one is going to trust an exchange where posting to social media about their problems with it gets their funds frozen. You are just giving yourself enough rope to hang yourselves with using this policy.

You know what really gives people confidence in an exchange? Seeing how they react to situations like this. Do they make the userbase whole or do they just point fingers in every direction but their own? Right now Livecoin is looking like a big fat fail to me, but there is still time to make an opportunity out of this situation. Do the right thing and set up a restitution plan. Even if it needs to happen over time your user base will respect you for it, and it will grow. They understand problems are to be expected in this industry. What they will not tolerate is the exchange making the user base bear all of the cost of its own mistakes.

What an interesting person you are. What is it, double standards? How did you determine who should do what? There are rules, they are everywhere. They are on the stock exchange, in our offline life (a set of laws) and they are on the forum. If I registered on the forum, then I agree with the rules. If I violated - I think they will punish me in some way, maybe they will ban me, lower the trust or do something else.
So why the forum can have rules   https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=703657.0#post_rules  and the stock exchange does not? And if we take into account that the wording of the forum rules is sometimes so blurry that it covers almost all possible scenarios, the forum rules can be read as "If necessary, we will do what we want."
23. When deciding if a user has broken the rules, the staff have the right to follow their interpretation of the rules.
If the agreement with the exchange does not mean anything, then what about the forum rules?

I think the rules are needed, they must be observed - chaos will be without rules.

As long as there are people with the same opinion as yours, we will have exchanges, such as livecoin. They treat the customer badly because you let them do it. But the next time they deceive you, who will help you, if you had such an opinion before? I'm sorry

English is not my first language. I apologize in advance for Google translate. I believe that OP - scammer and not livecoin. Because it's more likely that he took advantage of the vulnerability of the exchange when updating the wallet with a decimal fraction of a shit coin. It sends 100 coins. due to an error on the account displaying 10000. Then exchange. Remove. Rinse, repeat. And now he's engaged in reputational blackmail extortion

That's quite an accusation, why didn't Livecoin mention it anywhere, surely they would have had this been true? OP asks for his money back, Livecoin is only unhappy about the hit to their reputation (and rightfully so, they should take TECSHARE's and others' comments to heart).

e: see below

This person confuses the MONA problem with the MONERO problem. I already explained it to him, but for some reason he ignores.

Also in the russian local branch of livecoin there are many inadequate people who maintain their position, relying on the fact that they like their design, etc., They do not hear the obvious facts of fraud.  :(

How interesting, who exactly is "WE"? Are you a group of people who carry out a planned action? If so, that explains a lot.
Why do you write about exchanges in the plural? Are there any other exchanges in the plans?
At first I decided that this is just a slightly upset user, but the behavior is very strange, along with the fact that he describes, I think we need a serious check of all forum accounts involved in this action.
In addition, the manner of your communication becomes clear why there were problems with your account. I never allow myself this and it’s not a matter of agreements or fears of blocking, but of elementary rules of decency, and this coincides with the exchange's comment that the user deliberately goes into conflict. If you address people like this, how should they react? I am sure that I will not have similar problems with the exchanges, but if so, I can calmly agree with support, as it was once on one of the exchanges.

And about the fact that you "will have exchanges", go try to do it with a blacksmith anvil, the effect will be about the same.

Livecoin can ban the user and they can even keep user's money but they will be rightfully labeled as scammers if they do. Absurd or even illegal rules can and should be challenged. Unfortunately all those scammy exchanges have become very crafty at stealing small enough amounts so that it's not viable for users to sue.

This has nothing to do with forum rules. Forum is not confiscating your money.

I hope you will not lose anything on this exchange! I am sorry that you do not allow yourself to assert your rights. You can do as many checks as you like, but there are serious facts, and you cannot refute them.
Exchange lost my MONA coins because of their fault - yes
Exchange blocked me for no reason - yes
The exchange has justified the reason for blocking - no
Exchange keeps my money - yes
How could we plan this ?! We started cooking this in 2018? This is absurd

The exchange did not take the money. Where is it written that they stole something from him? Show exactly where it is written that the exchange stole his money. We are talking about blocking his account and while it is a temporary blocking, until all the consequences are eliminated. Read this topic, read the posts of this user, look at his behavior. Nothing strange?

Let find out the reason I do not mind. But while they do it - can I use my money? Not! What right do they have to not give me access to them? If someone took my money without my permission, then what is this if not stealing? Nothing strange?

Here:


It doesn't matter what you call it. The user cannot withdraw or otherwise take control of their money. If a person in a ski mask comes into a bank and says "put all your money into my duffel bag and I will temporarily block your access to it" - that's still a robbery.


I don't care. I'm basing my opinion on LiveCoin response in this thread.

Well, if you do not care, then there is nothing to talk about.  I also do not care, the user has a violation means should be responsible for their actions. Moreover, the Exchange made it clear that it needs to be done to simplify the process.

The violation issued to him illegally! If you are an employee of the exchange, do not carry this nonsense, just give me back my money!

On the street, come up to everyone and say - are you an employee of the exchange? Give me my money .. Are you an employee of the exchange? And you, too, give me .. my.
By the way, if we are talking about money, what amount are we talking about? How much money was left on the account?

What is the shitcoin even worth? Surely sometimes as a business it’s worth taking a small hit to make things right.  Your T&S is horseshit, people can’t moan about issues? Wtf is that shit about ?

People cannot blackmail and hang their issues on others. If you buy horse-shit-coins as MONA don't lie "I was scammed!!!1" in bad future

Client makes wrongful accusations toward our Exchange. The status of the mentioned asset is indicated as the lowest and not recommended for purchase. The client has knowingly bought the trash asset. The fact that the asset is not available for withdrawal at the moment, is not a scam. The acquired funds is still in the client’s account, he can sell this asset after the purchase, and withdraw BTC for example.

We gave all explanations to the client as well, we suggested a few ways to solve this situation, but he refused. He threatens, abuses our staff and publish slander that has nothing to do with reality. Such behavior is illegal itself, it broke User Agreement as well local legislation too, this is a true SCAM. We also consider connivance of the bitcointalk administration in such questions - inappropriate.

Can he? I thought you were demanding to remove their public complaints. Is that no longer the case?

Your TOS is inappropriate, telling the user to delete the thread before resolving the issue is inappropriate. I get that OP is a twat for buying the shitcoin and totally understand that he can sell on the market, but that does not retract from the TOS

 If it is such a "trash asset," why have you continued to allow people to trade it on your exchange, making fees on every trade? It's been over a year since this problem with Monacoin happened. Today alone, this "trash asset" has done almost 1 BTC worth of volume on your exchange. Also, the bitcoin "administration" is not involved in this. Furthermore, it is not "inappropriate" for community members to support what appears to be a legitimate complaint against you.

If the user knowingly bought the coin while the wallet/withdrawal was disabled then I'd say LiveCoin might have a point but they need to unblock the account. Idiots buying worthless shitcoins is not something an exchange should be responsible for. Still it's a shitty move to allow trading in these circumstances. MONA is trading 75% lower on LiveCoin than it is elsewhere (https://coinmarketcap.com/currencies/monacoin/#markets).

It appears they have another coin that they disabled the wallet for quite sometime and continue to allow trading. The coin happens to be Monero... from what I can tell, it appears Livecoin wants the Monero team to compensate them for 1.8 million worth of losses. https://www.reddit.com/r/Monero/comments/brd4nf/livecoinnet_xmr_wallet_offline/

Livecoin.net's next defensive strategy.. "not your keys, not your coins"

Come on, your defense so far is that OP bought a trash asset and needs to communicate a fix with the developers of the coin while remaining silent about this problem. I'd imagine they've made a pretty penny off the monero arbitrage opportunities they've created and maintained for themselves.

Message to Livecoin team. This is a failing strategy. You have a limited window to change your approach to these situations. If you refuse your exchange is without a doubt finished.


I recommend people get what you can out of this exchange because this kind of behavior is indicative of an exchange that is under water and dealing with its problems in an extremely incompetent manner.

I've been warning about Livecoin for many months in my sig after seeing their attitude towards customers, their lack of support on their ANN thread & their generally shady behaviour. It's the usual case of some dodgy exchange that nobody knows who runs it, who owns it, where it's located or who works there. We see these types of exchanges pop-up all the time, they list as many shitcoins as they can, let people deposit & withdraw small amounts for ages then gradually start skimming users while hiding behind constantly changing BS TOC's & KYC requirements that pop-up out of nowhere - it's become the norm for all these scam centralized exchanges.
Livecoin were crafty though, they started a sig campaign some weeks ago requiring that only legendary accounts were eligible in an effort to revive their failing reputation & give the impression that they were a trustworthy & legitimate exchange - it was quite sad to see how many legendary accounts jumped at the chance to earn a few satoshi & were prepared to sell their profiles out to a scam outfit like Livecoin - maybe the fact that the campaign was for legendary members only made them feel like they were special or something, or maybe greed blinded them to the obvious, but whatever their reasons were they should have done a little research before doing so.
I guess it just goes to show that even legendary members can be taken for a ride & fall for obvious scams if the price is right I suppose.

Hi guys, it’s very difficult for me to answer their accusations in several sections, and also to respond to the attacks of all those they send to me.
Thank you for your support and trust in me, I really appreciate it. Without your support, I would probably give up. And thanks to you, I have a chance that they will return what they stole from me!
I will write them a full response to the new unfounded accusation against me here, tomorrow. Thanks!

Fella, you bought a shit asset that was then frozen. Unfortunately for you this isn’t likely to end how you want, but.. the exchange will end up opening your account and allow you to dump the coins on market then withdraw btc. The issue now is how they handle this all, they will be under no obligation to make you right with the shitcoin.

In light of the revelations in this thread, I have notified the participants of the LiveCoin signature campaign of this thread, and of the active flag against LiveCoin.

Unfortunately, the campaign offers the second highest paying rates and the posting restrictions are very liberal. People will be loath to leave. I know that I was.

This looks like a million dollar advice to anyone trading or holding there crypto assets on Livecoin Exchange.

They are just throwing base less reasons of the user buying shitcoin on there exchange! Really! That sounds like an ironic statement from an exchange.

I would suggest everyone using the exchange to take the above advice by TECSHARE seriously.

Well hopefully most people will be willing to put their ethics of not advertising for what now appears to be a scam above a few hundred dollars per week.

Doesn't this smell like new YoBit here ?

for the moment i save this discussion

https://archive.is/MqpXg

--- update soon ---

note: 6 years of activity - https://www.livecoin.net/en/about

--- just some considerations ---

- screenshots isnt a clue, now and ever
- https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5159692.msg51715434#msg51715434
- accusator have a red trust https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1023418.msg51703280#msg51703280 >>> http://archive.is/JClkd for blackmail livecoin --- vadi2323 isnt not involved in livecoin signature campaign

If you're referring to me (the only user posting here thus far with a 'Staff' position), then I'm not an administrator but a moderator, and I'm speaking my mind as a regular user.

Blaming the developer team for their own incompetence and lack of risk management, and then selectively scamming their customers to recoup the losses -- that's what this amounts to!

I'm surprised such an unscrupulous exchange is running such a prominent signature campaign on Bitcointalk. I was hoping this would get rectified quickly, but the more I think about it, the more it seems like LiveCoin -- according to their behavior around their terms -- are just scammers.


All signs point to insolvency and selective scamming to stay afloat. I agree that anyone in the position to withdraw funds should do so immediately.

Livecoin exchange - then why still keeping this trash asset instead of delisting it?
                             How can he uses it if you disabled it?
                             How ironic that you gave him all of your explanation but not a single money was given/return.

It seems better when you keep silent, I think it works better in your defense. Everything you stated is a lie and nonsense that has no real evidence! Do not be like those people who only curse and insult others to support their point of view! You continue misleading your users and denigrating me, a person whose money you stole.
All the charges against you are supported by the evidence. All the information posted in the main and subsequent posts.
This asset did not have any «statuses» when I bought it in the beginning of 2018. The statuses you are referring to were created much later. Why are you lying? You brought up an interesting topic, and I would like to thank you for that. You statement makes me wonder - how did the "junk asset" appear on your stock exchange? I understand it would have not been right if I bought a "junk asset" and lost a lot of money because of its fall, then began demanding a compensation from you. This was not the case, and again you are trying to twist my words to misrepresent reality and confuse everyone. I bought a "trash asset", then you lost it during the “attack 51%” and I cannot withdraw it up to this time! Don’t try to tell me where I should sell it, I will decide it without your advice!
I am not afraid of your threat that you will put my money into your pocket, and I am not afraid of your or someone else’s false accusations, because I know that I am right! Neither you nor those who lie with you do not provide ANY evidence, but endless bare accusations and humiliations.

So funny when a thief talks about local legislation  :-X


This is something new, for God’s sake. You are trying to say, that when a user PURCHASED coins on your exchange and they were lost due to your fault, then you refused to compensate the losses and blocked user’s account, and when he turned to public and began to put pressure on you publicly by using evidence it’s called “scam”? Well, I see that your “logic” is just perfect. What kind of security you can even talk about, if you continue to lose your users' assets, and in case they are trying to make a claim you call it “SCAM”?
After my account was blocked “FOR THE PUBLIC JUDGMENT”, I did not receive a single warning nor receive any clear reasons explaining why it was blocked for 1.5 weeks. Please note that my account was blocked in 10 minutes after I published my opinion in this forum and on the bestchange. Although you keep stating to the public that you issue a warning before you block an account. My account was blocked on 07/18/2019 and I have not received any explanation from you regarding the reasons why blocking it for over a week!

I kept sending you my requests and demanded a resolution of this issue for 1.5 weeks! And that's what you answered to me the first time.
It was very strange of you to perceive my demand to resolve this issue as a threat. I think, if you perceived this is a threat, then you know that there is no truth behind you!

It's my answer

Once again, without receiving any explanations from you about the reasons for blocking my account, I assumed that the blocking could have been because I published technical support tickets. So, I deleted all of them and I informed you about it. Now I would like you to look at how you replied to me, maybe now you will feel ashamed.

Do you think that I must search for the reasons why you blocked my account? Instead of explaining everything to me, you began to play hide and seek! Is this how a modern stock exchange works in your opinion?

It's my answer

Your reply to my question, that I literally had been pulling out from you for over 2 weeks, was just unbelievable! After all this how dare you to accuse me of inciting a conflict and scam?!

BINGO! The reason for blocking my account determined to be “spread of falsified information”. OK, let’s assume that the information posted by me was falsified. Then explain to me, which exact section of the user agreement prohibits me from do doing so?! If there is no such section exist, then why the hell my account was blocked?! It turns out that the reason might have been you felt offended, because you were trying to hide something. Well, here is my final answer.


So, now we determined that according to your rules, it is not forbidden to spread falsified information about your exchange (I repeat, that I did not spread falsified information). I still haven’t received an explanation of why my account was blocked; I demand you to tell me the reason you did this and return my money, which were stolen by you! My dear friends, I tell you that whatever belongs to me, but is in your possession without my agreement, is considered stolen! And since I didn’t break any rules, we return to June 18th. You did nothing to resolve this issue since that time but could have been more productive!

LiveCoin - is a modern stock exchange. The exchange is so modern that it fights negative feedback from their users by blocking their accounts! If you stand behind your company’s mission, then communicate with your costumer and show us that you are right in this situation. This will be 10 times more efficient and you will gain more trust from your customers, than what you are trying to do right now. This is the 21st century and most of the problems can be solved through a productive communication. Instead, you are trying to solve it by blackmailing!

So, you blocked my account and intimidated me with the fact that everything I posted must be deleted or else I will lose my assets, then what? I did not remain silent and now I am writing even more posts about the problem with the MONA coin that you are experiencing. All of this is gaining publicity, and now there are even more people who understand that you are wrong, and they will withdraw their currency from your exchange. This is a hint for you. Initially I demanded a resolution of this issue from you privately with no result. Only after I went publicly and accused you, you started to move, although in the wrong direction again.


Why are you always trying to blame someone else? You lost the MONA coins but blame the developer, you blame the user who wrote a negative feedback and you blame the forum that allowed the publication of a negative feedback supported by facts! Taking into consideration all the evidence of your fraud towards me, your topic on the altcoinstalks.com forum has been cleared. Is this a coincidence, or there is someone to blame for this?
I hope all this information will reach your higher management and you will be punished for everything you did. I feel sorry for this exchange, because it’s good overall. My complaints are addressed solely to the administration and their inappropriate customer service. Guys, you are walking on a very thin ice when making statements about me that are not supported by facts. You are pushing yourself into a corner and I highly advise you to reconsider your attitude towards clients.
Now I am ready to continue responding to silly attacks from your trolls and receiving random insults and false accusations out of the blue. Do not expect to receive the same reaction in return, in return you will receive more facts!

Please support my flag (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=trust;flag=308) it is very important!

So they started hiring shills to defend themselves? Start posting from your real account. Nothing seems strange in his behavior. He's a naive victim of your full-fledged scam.

ICO's don't really outlaw the general terms and conditions of consumer protection. Did he sign any contracts with you? Nope. Give his money back. Not like your shitcoin had intentions of doing anything apart from the pump and dump schemes to deceive the community. We know how things work.

Livecoin.Net TOS have no reference to any company that owns or operates the website.

With the recent Bitsane disappearance it shows how risky it is having funds on an exchange that does not want to be found.

It appears to be registered in Belize under the name of:   RED VELVET INVESTMENTS LTD.

https://i.imgur.com/UJPPn6D.png

https://i.imgur.com/SicnJfx.png

It appears that little information is known about Ivona Zlatova and there are suspicions that this person may not exist.

https://i.imgur.com/7iFvRcI.png

https://i.imgur.com/ilg7yhW.png

I don't understand why is livecoin making a big fuss. Unlock his account, Give his money back, problem solved and everybody is happy. What's so hard about it? Did he steal anything from the exchange? Is his money originating from hackers/terrorists? If that's a "no" then unlock his account.

Also you can't just silence people by weaponizing your ToS, that's not what ToS is for.

I get it, it is there to protect the exchange but what about the customer?

Their TOS also appears to break Belize law (where their company is supposedly registered)

https://i.imgur.com/FyztQhP.png

https://i.imgur.com/FGSL8aR.png

https://i.imgur.com/VMC4aqe.png


Such terms also appear to violate law by implying that you cannot share any information with the authorities because livecoin.net will seize your account balances.

i love math so much
because math can explane everything and raise logic

https://coinmarketcap.com/currencies/monacoin/ monacoin value = 2 euro

750 x 2 = 1500 euro


and, my logic said... an exchange scam 1500 euro?

@izooomrud you think we are stupids? an exchage if want do a REAL scam, do exit scam or steal MORE than 1500 euro


we can use the logic
if i'm an exchange, i do'nt steal 1500 euros and risk a scam accusation
if i want to do a scam, i'm going to exit scam (like other exchange) or simulate a fake hacker steal

If they not a scam - where my money? You are one of those who unreasonably support livecoin, although you have concrete evidence of their deception, you write me negative reviews unreasonably, I am ashamed of you

you TAG ME red WITHOUT reference and write

without post in my thread (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5161903.0)


and now, if i'm kid like you, i tag you too red.... but i'm and adult

i NEVER cover a thief, see my history of scam hunter.. kid



WHERE??? WHERE IS THIS NEGATIVE REVIEW???

I mean trust. And you cover livecoin when there is evidence of their cheating

you are delirious, for real and for 1500 euro
if you are idiot and stock your alt in exchange not my problem... now you lost money and now you raging

explane in my topic why the russian user accuse you (and tag you red) with blackmail accusation



if you convince me, I'll give my flag support and close the topic about you

thanks for the opinion

it seems that I used the wrong login when changing the trust, I'm sorry

some other threads usefull on scam accusation against livecoin

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5161686.0 (drama thread)
|---> https://forklog.com/kriptovalyutnaya-birzha-livecoin-priostanovila-vyvod-sredstv

|---> https://forklog.com/kriptobirzha-livecoin-poteryala-svyshe-1-8-mln-iz-za-uyazvimosti-v-kode-monero

|---> https://www.bestchange.ru/livecoin-exchanger.html

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1023418.0 (last pages)


---- update -----
i'm going to investigate more on livecoin and shitcoin security issue

No surprise to see that it's only Russians & Livescam sig wearers sticking up for these scammers - I think we can assume Livescam is run out of somewhere in Russia then. Time to start tagging these scam promoters a'la Yobit style soon I think - I didn't realize there were so many cheap skate legendary members on here.

In the meantime, Flag supported.

BTC-E esque, god those were the days

In my opinion, I don't see that as a act of ignoring accusations since they are going to provide us an update and we can only say they are ignoring accusations if they don't respond to the accuser complain.

Their terms of service also break the laws of common sense.


That's illegal in every country with a civilized legal code.



This (presumably) gives them the authority to close your account for any reason or no reason.  Maybe they don't like your username; account closed.  Maybe they think you have too much money in your account; account closed!  WTF, over?



No causing trouble, or... you guessed it; account closed!

[Archive (http://archive.fo/4bA25)]

---

Another head-scratcher; It seems like livecoin has deleted any mention of MONA from their website, with the exception of their main exchange page.  A google search lists "news" results from livecoin.net, but when searching the linked page all mention of MONA is gone.  One page, which appears to have been the original press release at the time of the 51% attack has been completely deleted, and the link goes to a 404 error.  That link:


A post on github quotes the original message:


The search settings I used:

---

The most troubling thing about this whole event is the number of reputed member who are still supporting this exchange.  A couple of spots opened up on their signature campaign, and several people applied.  This is really disappointing, especially from those whom I respect.  It's pretty obvious livecoin is a shady outfit, hiding in the shadows with a ToS agreement that holds them unaccountable.  

Sure, the evidence of the scam claims is largely circumstantial, but in this very thread they admitted they are treating the victim as he reported.  After several claims of folks being mistreated by livecoin, and their own terms of service full of illegal business practices, I'm baffled anyone can continue to stand behind them.

I'm going to cut the Livecoin participants some slack, for now. As I have testified before, the Livecoin signature was a hard one to drop. Part of me still even regrets my decision. While I was contemplating whether I should stay or leave the campaign, I must have come up with a thousand and one justifications to stay. However, in the end, it just didn't feel right for me.

Tag me, flag me, any way you want me :).

I'll be working towards finding a solution and trying to mend LiveCoins reputation as that seems like more of a challenge than just pointing fingers and exercising a feeling of power. But that might just be me, as long as I'm on DT (I've messaged theymos about blacklisting me) I will counter any negative given to participants in the LiveCoin campaign.

I might share any updates in this thread, the campaign thread or somewhere else but as of right now it's back to work.

Lol, Bones' post made me think of a Clash song, and Hh made me think of a Journey song.  I'm good with the Clash, but time out for you, Hhampuz, for shame.  >:(



That ain't gonna happen.  I'm not tagging anyone other livecoin.  I get it, a lot of income is on the line for people who can't afford to lose it.  I empathize, and for that reason I won't be tagging anyone participating the sig campaign.  If anyone gets tagged or flagged for being on the sig campaign I'll oppose it.



Of that I have no doubt.  If anyone is up for the challenge, livecoin has the right guy in their corner.

I think they have admitted to a sufficient number of facts for someone to conclude that they have effectively scammed the OP if you only believe LiveCoin and do not believe the OP.

---

I would think this would be exactly why someone should get tagged— they are receiving money in order to effectively vouch for someone they know to be a scammer. They have been pointed out that they are advertising for a scammer and have not disagreed with the conclusion.

I fail to see how this is difficult from someone vouching for someone asking for a loan they know has no intention of repaying, in exchange for a percentage of the loan received.

It would be different if they were disputing that LiveCoin is scamming, but for the most part they are not.

I think it's worth giving people some time to come to those conclusions for themselves.  I may change my mind about this in the future, but for now I am not tagging the participants of the sig campaign.  Many have been participating for weeks, and jumping in and tagging them this early in the process would be heartless, and very likely counter productive to the overall health of the community.  It's not my intention to bash people over the head for promoting something that weeks later turns out to be a fraud.

The first step to an amicable resolution is to convince LiveCoin to make things right with their clients, and revise their terms of service to comply with the laws of the countries where they operate.  If LiveCoin refuses to make these concessions then it's time to request that the signature campaign be put to rest.  Only then would it be right to start tagging people who continue to promote known fraudsters.

I'm rooting for Hhampuz, not holding my breath though. For Livecoin there is more money in exit scamming than making it right and they don't strike me as honest actors.

I've skimmed through some of Livecoin's Russian posts as well - they're much more eloquent there. They're in denial and going full Yobit (coincidentally another Russian scam exchange).

The practice of allowing to trade fake coins seems similar to Bitcoin shitforks pretending to be Bitcoin (and I'm not talking about merely shilling for BCH/BSV/etc, but actually selling them as the real Bitcoin) however Livecoin is still insisting that developers should cover their self-inflicted losses and they're not halting trading.

You could to explain to them how businesses are supposed be run in 1st world countries, you don't freeze assets a customer has deposited with you just because you disagree with what they write online about your business.

When the Dayun Zig Z1 was produced for the Lyra2Rev2 algorithm, I was an investor of crypto currency called Hdac that used L2R2 algorithm.

At that time, we warned both Hdac and Monacoin about this, but both crypto currencies didn’t change their algorithm despite the increased HashRate and allowed 51% attack.

Mona’s developers were very irresponsible, they didn’t take any action to prevent this. If necessary, I can prove that I was an investor of Hdac. I think, Livecoin is not guilty. For now I will continue to wear Livecoin's signature.

And, i'm so sorry about you. I will share percent of 10% my signature earnings with you, if you can’t solve this.

     What on Earth are you talking about? Every single POW algorithm is vulnerable to a 51% attack.  ::) Also, that still does not excuse Livecoin from continuing to keep the exchange open for business on an asset that they had a fractional reserve on. Who cares if the Mona development team is somehow at fault. It was obvious that the Monacoin development team was not going to compensate Livecoin for this attack. After over a year, Livecoin should have come up with another solution, so they were no longer insolvent with regards to the Mona asset.  Also, profiting from exchange fees for an asset that may never be directly redeemable, without dumping it at a deep discount, is reprehensible. Furthermore, to add to their problem, they are doing the same thing with the Monero asset. Perhaps they are not as bad as Yobit, but running an exchange this way is not acceptable. Moreover their TOS is bullshit. If I am an unsatisfied customer and I bitch about them, they can just freeze my account and confiscate my assets?
    It's good of you to be willing to donate 10% of your proceeds to the victim. However, Livecoin should make their client as close to whole as possible, not you.

As I suspected, your request to be blacklisted from the default trust was a preemptive action to compensate for the criticism you knew you were going to get for continuing to support this exchange for your personal profit. How much exactly was your reputation worth Hhampuz?

The exchange is responsible for our money, so it needs to monitor the network status of all its coins. If the state of the network does not inspire confidence, then increase the number of confirmations to enter and then the attack of 51% will not be terrible

Thanks for your decision, you are a very decent person.

You create the narrative anyhow you want it tecshare, but then again were you not accusing me of trying to distract from this scam accusation? What exactly is it you are doing now?

To answer your question though, I'd say my reputation was is worth more than yours so  ???

At the moment, the only way to influence these scammers, who behave very arrogantly, is the flag, but you support them, I do not understand why

Not distract from this scam accusation, distract from the incoming wave of criticism bound to be directed at you for your involvement with them. I wouldn't know how much my reputation is worth, because mine is not for sale. You be mad at me if you like for pointing this out, but we both know you are doing this to yourself by avoiding the hard choices with little default trust games. More rules for thee but not for me right? Suddenly you see the value in people being left the fuck alone now that it is your turn don't you?

I believe the time to stop advertising for LiveCoin was when there was sufficient evidence to support the flag against them, or perhaps very shortly thereafter if they quickly resolve the issue, which I would say has already elapsed. If LiveCoin were to resolve the issue, it would then become appropriate to resume advertising for them, if desired.

I would give participants some time to reach the conclusion they LiveCoin has in fact scammed the OP, so they can review the evidence. I have notified every participant in the campaign of the scam accusation, that there is a valid flag, and that LiveCoin has admitted to sufficient facts to conclude that they are scamming the OP, so they cannot claim ignorance.  I am not sure what the appropriate amount of time to wait would be, however the next payment for participants is on Tuesday, and I believe that would exceed the amount of reasonable time to decide to stop advertising for LiveCoin -- this is in part based on that once payment is received, they have crossed the line into receiving payment for advertising a scam.

My notification to participants that they are advertising a scam was not taken kindly. I was effectively cussed out (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=2360806.msg51709219#msg51709219) by some in the German sub, received negative trust from babo (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=trust;u=65636) for what can only be described as retaliation for asking participants to consider stopping advertising for LiveCoin, and some users are trying to get me banned (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5124985.msg51713061#msg51713061) for trying to stop them from advertising a scam. None of this will prevent me from doing the right thing. All of those who are taking affirmative actions to try to prevent and/or punish me from pointing out they are advertising a scam are, in my view inherently untrustworthy -- these people are aware they are advertising a scam and are taking affirmative steps to silence criticism of this fact.   

it is not correct. In addition to the coins, they stole about 0.08btc from me. And most importantly, when they give me my  of MONA coins that they have lost due to their negligence, many others will also want a refund. Therefore, they do not return them to me under any pretext. And the return of all debts is much more than 1500 euros :)

The way some some people are reacting to this issue is appalling, and those folks will suffer ramifications.  Yes, some are refusing to acknowledge that a scam took place because the amount of money involved wan't enough, or simply ignoring the fact that LiveCoin admitted to the allegations presented by the OP of this thread, or attacking the OP for trusting an exchange to store funds (an exchange they promote.)  It reminds me of the three phases of acceptance: Denial, anger, and finally acceptance.  It's hard for some of us to logically accept a change that will hurt.  Losing income is a hard thing to accept, and some will lash out when faced with the prospect.  None the less, the content of those people's character is being exposed, and I believe the system will reward them accordingly.

As for my actions: For now I'll commend people like Bones261 for making what I believe is the right choice, and refrain from deriding those who continue to participate in the sig campaign.  The decision is mine to make.  You are free to start tagging people for participating, and I'm free to wait.

I think Suchmoon put it quite eloquently; rooting for Hhampuz while not holding her breath.  

You're right.
All this looks like blackmailing rather than "scamming OP".

Let's watch in this situation step by step:
OP bought 750 MONA coins one year ago. After 51 % attack on MONA network he became active again (through some period of time) and starts to claim for coins withdrawal . After he got rejected, he went to bestchange.ru and here and starts to blackmail exchange. Livecoin of course doesn't right to, because they blocked him (and most negative feedbacks from forum members because of that fact) and refered to some "user agreement".
Very suspicious situation as for me. Because of such things:
1. OP wants TO WITHDRAW coins. Not to refund them, not to sell or somethings. Mostly, ordinary people don't act in such ways. They want their money back, not "withdraw".

2.  OP writes from a group of people
Really, "we"? "WE"? Who is that "We"?

3. Interesting fact about one way to attack different exchanges:

Translation of selected part:
"The point: Cryptocurrency with weak hashrate is chosen (or creates) for such attack. Attack 51 % took place, covertly at first, compromised coins is sends to exchanger and sells for btc (or something valuable). Then scammer withdrawing btc and after that he publiches corrupted chain and compromised coins dissapear from exchanger history. In fact, scammer sold air to exchanger"

One moment: to sell big amount of shitcoins you need at first increase trading volume and adjacent things. That means that some "clean" coins still stored on exchange (they were used for such things) and maybe scammer want them back too. In that case he will use earlier prepared accounts with claims to open withdrawal.

Not excluded that we are witnesses of such scenario.

I'm so happy that at this point of my life I can't even be bothered with the forum any longer.  All you do, all day long, is twist peoples words to try and make them go mad, perhaps you have succeeded with me Tecshare, as right now all I can do is laugh when I read your posts. I actually think you are quite funny and you provide some quality content around these parts. But let's bring this back on topic and either continue bashing livecoin or try and find a solution :).

"We" is everybody, the people, you, me, your neighbors...
Are you that dumb or just pretending here ?

  How on Earth is demanding to withdraw coins that you purchased, "blackmail?" This is like going into a store, purchasing a product, and then the store refuses to let you leave with the product that you just purchased. Is it blackmail if that customer then proceeds to write a scathing review on Yelp? I think not. If Livecoin does not want to allow withdrawals on Mona or Monero because they now have a fractional reserve due to the acts of malicious miners and vulnerability exploiters, then the right course of action is to suspend trading as well, until they can come up with a resolution to the issue. The right course of action is not to continue to allow people to trade the asset and profit off of it indefinitely. Furthermore, since both of these assets are trading much lower on their exchange, it is quite possible that Livecoin is buying the asset for a discount oin their own exchange and then selling the asset on another exchange for a huge profit. Due to Monero being a privacy coin, they could probably get away with this. I certainly hope that Livecoin is not resorting to such measures. However, they need to suspend trading, and come up with another resolution to solve their insolvency issue with both of these assets. Enough time has passed; so it is clear that neither the Mona team or the Monero team is going to cover their losses. It is high time that they explore the other option that they outline in their terms of service. Yes, making their clients take a haircut will piss some clients off; however, I am sure many will understand since in both cases, it does not appear to be an inside job. They can do what bitfinex did when they got hacked. They offered their customers a token, and devoted a small portion of their profits to distribute compensation to their clients who held or bought the token.

I'm not trying to attack you, I'm trying to understand.

Are you claiming that LiveCoin owes you 0.3BTC because that is what you paid for a coin that later dropped significantly in value? I understand if the wallet got locked and you could not withdraw/deposit MONA but you could have sold it to BTC at that point, no?

I have no idea what MONA is or what it's value has been, but help me  understand please :)

Nice try! Then why I did not sell clean coins with fakes? Why should I wait a year ?!

The OP is claiming to have bought Mona coins for about 40K sats each. If he was allowed to withdraw his Mona coins, he could sell his Mona coins for 20K sats for a 50% loss.(BTC wise) His only option now, if Livecoin reactivates his account, is to sell them for about 4300 sats each on Livecoin. That is almost a 90% loss.(BTC wise) If Livecoin invoked the option to make all current Mona asset holders take a haircut, the OP will probably still be better off, since withdrawals will be re-enabled, which is likely to have a positive effect on the market price at Livecoin, and if not, he can dump elsewhere.

because the livecoin price does not match the market

I see, so according to what bones261 said above the price on Livecoin is significantly lower due to wallets being locked, yes?

So the best solution in this case would be something like, disable the MONA trading pair and allow users to withdraw the MONA that they own, yes? If they were to do that, would you consider yourself being made whole or would there be further issues due to the time it has taken?

Edit: to add I've never worked at an exchange and have no idea how anything works when these things happen.

I don't think Livecoin can simply enable withdrawals because they have a shitload of fake coins / are on the wrong fork, i.e. they don't have enough coins for everyone to withdraw. They need to do something along the lines of what other exchanges have done in similar scenarios, e.g. offer a compensation plan. They can still pursue their claims against developers if they want to but they shouldn't be holding their customers hostage.

And they need to unlock OP's account if it's still locked due to their ridiculous TOS "no complaint" clause.

Let's try again: OP bought MONA tokens ONE YEAR AGO. Not one week, not one month. Where he was all this time? For example, i lost 800 dollars in Wagger due to MY FAULT.  I'm not crying about "scammers which stole 800 dollars from me".
Everything is very shady in this story.
OP doesn't show proofs of his Livecoin balance (Does he has something except MONA coins on exchanger?)
OP doesn't answer about e-mail (Did he receive e-mail notifications about deposit/withdraw closing)
OP (and Livecoin too) doesn't answer about correspondence BEFORE his negative reviews (claims) on bestchange.ru and bitcointalk. Livecoin tells us that they offered to him some ways and he rejected all of them.  

But Livecoin of course looks very strange too. Keep trading on dumped and hacked coins it's beyond my understanding.


It could be hard to repeat it without scammy trade as Bitfinex did. I know it situation very well, because i was bitfinex client in 2016 and lost my funds due to "hackers" (yep, you understand what i mean by "") and in result lost 15.85 % due to shit way (maybe even "scammy") which bitfinex choosed.

Yes, I only need my money and their apologies, I would also be happy to hear

Yeah, I really have to stress I have no idea how any of this works so perhaps a roll-back for everyone that bought the fake MONA coins would work?

The first thing I did when I talked to LiveCoin was to tell them that they should look over the ToS and change it, I believe they are looking over it as we speak.

Probably not, it's been trading for a year so surely people have bought and sold and bought something else and withdrew etc... I doubt it could be untangled with a rollback. Livecoin really made in unnecessarily complicated by allowing a known bad coin/fork to be traded for so long.


Most of that doesn't really matter because Livecoin essentially confirmed the OP's story and the biggest problem is how they're handling it (and the forks/attacks). If the OP is shady Livecoin is welcome to present facts to that effect.

you are trying to blame me, but because you are not familiar with this topic you are not good

I would argue that if you were buying MONA after the fact, you knew what you were getting yourself into (pure speculation since price was so much lower). Since there apparently was/is a market for it I don't think any of the users that currently trade it have lost anything. But I do agree with you, however nothing can be done about that now so I'm trying.

Some things also get lost in translation I feel which makes it increasingly more difficult. I'll keep people in here posted though.

I would be careful becoming an "advisor" to Livecoin just because you run their signature campaign. With ToS like theirs for however many years they have been operating it doesn't change the fact that what they were doing was illegal/immoral and just because they change a few things because they finally have DT1 eyes on them it doesn't change anything, just a further form of deception. This will not end well. Do not attach your name to this sinking ship any further than you have.

Regardless of OP not having shown balances and everything, Livecoin has stated their views and essentially repeated their garbage ToS aswell as calling coins like mona and monero trash coins due to the fact that the dev teams will not compensate them for having been double spent on. An exchange should have a division that monitors the coins that they list, whether it be updates, hash rates, new hardware coming online... the amount of confirmations needed before deposits/withdraws are accepted are then raised when a coin is becoming problematic. I highly doubt the Livecoin team has a department that watches and monitors these things for all of the altcoins that they have listed. Why? Cuts into their profits, they just want to list the coin and collect trading fees. The sure sign of a company that grew too big too fast and does not spend more on the increased security needed.

I am trying to help, more than anything. If it is as some say and there's nothing known about LiveCoin or who operates it then the OP runs a larger risk of losing money if I were to jump ship and point fingers instead of trying to mend the ship. But as I said earlier, I expect it to be a challenge and it is one that I won't just shrug off because it gets too difficult. My reputation/name I could not care less for.

As long as you are being paid right?
Id like to refer everyone to the ~Hhampuz (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5161761.0) thread. DT1 members should not be acting or speaking like this no matter their past or connections, shady exchanges/businesses should not be able to buy DT1 loyalty like this.
I'll stop here because the rest of me just wants to bash you further but I don't want that. Get out of this emotional and irrational spot you're in and learn from it.

Edit to clarify: "Bash" as in I no longer wanted to make my reply about a personal attack and derail the thread. I do not condone violence in any way.

So me trying to help and looking at this objectively and logically is me being emotional and irrational while you at the same time say that you'd like to "bash me"? Makes sense. How about everyone takes their foot of the gas for a second and take a deep breath, I've never been in such a state of clarity. If people keep bringing up my reputation and name being dragged through the mud and seemingly for (not even my highest) payout then that is on you, I'll just say what it looks like from where I'm standing. You have obviously already made up your mind and that's fine too, you do you :).

Again, don't want to derail this thread, I'll post any update when I have it.

You go ahead and accuse me and laugh all you want. Contrary to your belief I am not your enemy, I am just one of the few people willing to tell you the hard truth that you are only fucking yourself over here. Just because the truth is painful to look at doesn't mean I am causing the pain by pointing it out. You still have time... don't waste it running from difficult choices, because difficult choices can always run faster and longer than you.

I need the exercise anyways :).

This is another nonsense from another provocateur. How can I show my balance if my account is blocked?

Just ignore it. Some people just don't read.

I offer an alternative signature livecoin

https://i.ibb.co/MDqZnZT/avatar-1068464.jpg

https://i.ibb.co/ZJZn4Gv/signature.jpg

 8)

If it was bought after the fact then the exchange would have known that they were selling tokens that they did not have possession of. The buyer may not have had such knowledge. As soon as the exchange became aware of the issue they should have frozen the markets for that coin.

While an exchange is not responsible for the MONA network and 51% attacks are hard to detect in real time - the exchange should freeze the markets as soon as they become aware of a 51% attack or attacks.

Allowing trading to continue is effectively continuing to sell something that you know that you do not have.

Normally this would be a situation of he said vs she said, but in this case Livecoin has done SO MANY underhanded and shady things I have seen other failing exchanges do, that I have no question they are largely if not completely at fault here. As I explained before, I have personally witnessed this pattern of behavior from exchanges from the perspective of not just a user but a development team. They are struggling to find any lame half assed excuse they can to cover their asses just a little bit longer. There are no reasonable justifications for these repeated failures which clearly demonstrate negligence if not active fraud. They started making a bunch of money, started getting self assured and sloppy, and didn't put any of it back into security. Now they want to blame everyone under the sun. There is no way this exchange is not insolvent, because if it wasn't they wouldn't be actively cutting their own throats by acting like this.

OK, so a guy has a problem with an exchange in 2018, and shows up over a year later to demand his funds - something he had given up pursuing for one reason or another - now that BTC has risen back out of its slump. Livecoin collects between $50k and $90k per day in trading fees. Seems to me like if they believed they were at fault, they would simply compensate this user for their losses, which is a comparatively small amount of money.

The only reason they are not giving in to the user's demands is because they believe he is in the wrong and they are in the right. And according to their Terms of Service (like them or hate them), they are right. Should the language in their ToS be updated to sound like they are not looking for reasons to with-hold user funds? Absolutely, I don't disagree with that part.

Livecoin was one of the first exchanges to notify Monacoin of the selfish miner attack, posting this in the Monacoin thread a full 2 days before Monacoin acknowledged the attack (https://twitter.com/tcejorpniocanom/status/997141459777110017):


The "selfish miner" sent a bunch of bogus coins to the Livecoin exchange (as well as Bittrex and a couple others) and cashed them out for BTC. (BTW, this fraudulent chain of Monacoin is what Livecoin has been referring to as a "trash asset" -- not the real Monacoin itself). Livecoin then issued the following statement in the aftermath:


Deposits and withdrawals of MONA to Livecoin have been suspended since. They supposedly lost around $90k worth of other coins (probably mostly BTC) to the attacker.

I think I can explain why they left the bogus chain "trash asset" up for trade -- they didn't want to just leave their MONA holders with nothing, and perhaps they maintained hope they would someday be reimbursed by the Monacoin devs in the form of MONA, which they could then distribute to their holders.

I suppose the best solution would have been to purchase MONA from elsewhere and recompensate their holders that way, but again, Livecoin firmly felt they were in the right and had not violated their end of the agreement with their users, pointing to clauses denying themselves of liability in the case of "malfunctioning software."

For a long time Poloniex left BitcoinDark  (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=684090.0)(BTCD) on their exchange available for trading, for over a year after it had stopped being mined. There was no way to move it in or out of the exchange, as the project's devs were absorbed by Komodo, yet Poloniex didn't feel the need to disable trading for it, even though it was an utterly useless asset.

My verdict/opinion: they should re-enable the user's account, allow him to sell his "trash asset" version of MONA on the exchange, and take his BTC proceeds off the exchange (0.08 BTC + the converted MONA). Then, bar the user from making future deposits of any sort, effectively closing his account.

Before you burn me, Hhampuz, and everybody else involved at the stake, just stop to take a couple of things into consideration:

- OP is but 1 man representing himself. There have been relatively few complaints against this exchange, and as its been open since 2014, its reputation shouldn't be destroyed over 1 incident. If you want to see what a real scam accusation thread against an exchange that probably is scamming its customers looks like, I invite you to check out the BiteBTC scam accusation thread (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=4612714.780).

- I highly doubt OP wrote the OP. It looks like he definitely had coaching, and while that does not change the facts, it suggests that his cause may have been furthered by those with ulterior motives. The fact that the usual parties are using this as an excuse to jump down Hhampuz's throat and are hyping the affair as a much bigger calamity than it actually is is hard to ignore.

Just want to add a few things. I kept them to myself all these days but now it seems to be the right time to speak out


Let's be honest, no one likes such ToS. In fact, no one likes any ToS. But I don't actually see anyone here telling the exchange how they should change their terms. If you disagree with them (which I understand), don't use the exchange, as simple as it gets. Still, if you think their ToS are violating local laws (let's assume you are a lawyer and know your thing), file an official complaint to a regulating body of that country. But really, some random dude on BTT telling a service (exchange, mixer, casino, etc) they should change their ToS is ridiculous. But even if not, why stop at LiveCoin then? There are literally hundreds of services out there whose representatives are active on the forum. Why not check their ToS as well now?


Locking this user's account is the only thing which can be remotely construed as an attempt at scamming by LiveCoin (even if it is legit according to their ToS). All other things that the exchange has been accused of here is what technically constitutes market risk

when you arrived at the gas station, which is located in the middle of the desert, the rules of which state that before you put the gun in the gas tank, you have to put it in the ass, what you will do: 1. You will insert the gun in the ass; 2. You will go on foot; 3 You declare that it is not legal, and you will demand to sell gasoline, as the law says?
Judging by your thoughts - you must select option 1

let's then read the answer of the developers
https://askmona.org/11384

And if you read the Russian branch, you will understand that blocking users without a reason occurs regularly. And at the moment they have a similar problem with MONERO coin.

Livecoin is a reliable exchange that has been running smoothly since 2014 and I have used it in the past. In addition, Hhampuz is a great campaign manager, one of the most trusted members of the forum.

In my first post (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5159692.msg51724000#msg51724000) about this topic, I mentioned that I am a major investor in the coin called Hdac, which uses the Lyra2Rev2 algorithm. I had a huge financial loss when Hdac got attacked, so I can empathize with the OP. Nevertheless I've never thought accusing any exchange because of my loss after the attack on Hdac because i was thinking it's Hdac's team fault. It's exactly the same thing here.

[1] [Warning] Hdac MainNet Malfunction Found (https://hdactech.com/en/News/news.do?mode=view&articleNo=1028)
[2] [Announcement] Cooperation Request for All Hdac Mining Partners (https://hdactech.com/en/News/news.do?mode=view&articleNo=1029)

Although we warned them with our investor group about Lyra2Rev2 algorithm, they ignored our warnings and allowed this attack.

One week after the attack on 6 September 2018 with Dayun Zig Z1, the price of the HDAC increased to 2x
https://coinmarketcap.com/currencies/hdac/

Two weeks after the attack on 17 May 2018 with Dayun Zig Z1, the price of the MONA increased to 3.5x
https://coinmarketcap.com/currencies/monacoin/

One month after the attack on 5 December 2018 with Dayun Zig Z1, the price of the VTC increased to 3x
https://coinmarketcap.com/currencies/vertcoin/

These three coins, despite our warnings, took no action on this issue.

Can someone tell me? Why was the coins valued after the attack? It's not normal but you are still accusing only LC. I think the Mona's team also responsible from this attacks because investors warned them multiple times but they choosed let that happen. They preferred not to do anything to prevent the attack. Why?

I would like to thank Livecoin and Hhampuz for accepted me to this nice signature campaign.

I'm leaving the signature campaign, good luck everyone.

If LiveCoin is so reputable, and they knew about the MONA attack within a few hours, why did they keep trading the asset?  Why didn't they shut it down?

Reputable exchanges don't keep trading assets they suspect are under 51% DDoS attacks.  Coinbase shuts down assets at the slightest inclining of an attack.  It pisses off their customers to no end, but guess what, nobody loses hundreds of thousands of dollars.

Is LiveCoin responsible for the attack?  No, the hacker is.
Is LiveCoin accountable for continuing to trade an asset they suspected is under attack?  Yes, they are, not their clients who were holding that asset.
Is LiveCoin taking advantage of their (illegal) terms of service to shirk their responsibility to their clients?  Yes, and they admit it.

Businesses suffer losses all the time, there's inherent risk in almost every business.  The biggest risk any business faces is losing all their clients, and ironically this is directly linked to how said business treats those clients.  LiveCoin is far from a "reputable business," just look at how they use their ToS to reject any and all accountability.  Those of us who would like to promote cryptocurrency into the mainstream should be ashamed of businesses such as LiveCoin, and we certainly shouldn't be defending them.

Did you read nutildah's post (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5159692.msg51740529#msg51740529)?


This doesn't make them scammers

As I said in my (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5159692.msg51740741#msg51740741) post, the only accusation that can loosely count as a scam attempt is locking OP out of his account. The things you mention further in your post are irrelevant to the accusation. They are inconsequential. The approaches that LiveCoin has taken to deal with the attack and mitigate the aftereffects may not have been the best. They in fact can be even the worst possible (technically, we don't know the gory details, so it is actually a moot point). But then again, that alone doesn't turn LiveCoin into scammers. Though you can always call them incompetent if you please

Which part of their ToS are you talking about? Just curious, as I want to make some cross-references.

Yes, Livecoin's rules aren't nice but it doesn’t mean they're scam. This is unreasonable, i think the real responsibility belong to Monacoin in this case. However, I left the campaign until the problem will be solved.

Yes it does....

They are selling an asset to someone and the buyer will never be able to take possession of said asset because the seller is refusing to deliver.

This would not be unlike if I were to sell a gold coin that I do not have and have no intention of delivering to any buyer (I would never do that).

That is actually very different since they have a market where you can speculate on the coin. If you were to sell a physical good that you wouldn't deliver that would be an actual scam since the buyer could never get anything back for it. Surprised this one goes over your head QS.

Surprised their whole ToS went over your head when you became their bitcointalk.org branding manager Hhampuz. Due diligence much?

Who are they more specifically?

They (the exchange) are not selling anything (well, unless proved otherwise). Both buyers and sellers are clients of the exchange (read, traders), and it is them selling and buying everything, not the exchange itself. Simple, isn't it? Does that make them (the exchange) scammers now provided LiveCoin had warned their clients about the state of the asset as in "trashy" (read, you are on your own)?

When did I become their branding manager? Managing a signature campaign is much different.. speaking of things going over your head.

Bolded some key parts for you.

Any market can be used to speculate on the price of the asset. When you are buying a coin on an exchange, you are buying the actual coin, not a derivative.

If I were to sell a coin I did not have, and did not intend to deliver, the buyer could sell the rights to the coin to someone else if there is a willing buyer.

edit: How about this, you can send 0.15BTC to 3P1o6BafmQomjKjakbK4ske8Lq8hCkJhiU to "speculate on the price of" 10 ETH -- I will not allow you to ever receive this ETH but you can sell this right to "speculate on the price" of ETH to anyone else who is a willing buyer. In my specific case, I am not scamming because I am disclosing your inability to receive ETH ahead of time, but LiveCoin did not do this, and as such is scamming.

Again  ???, Running a signature campaign for them /= being their brand manager?

---

You are comparing apples to oranges. Both you and I know that it's very different so I've no idea where you are going with this.

---

Snip from Poloniex terms:

"We reserve the right to restrict or refuse to permit withdrawals from your Account if (i) your Account has otherwise been suspended or closed by Poloniex in accordance with this Agreement; (ii) to do so would be prohibited by law or a court order or we have determined that the Digital Assets were obtained fraudulently; or (iii) you have not undergone the required identity verification procedure such that your identity has been verified, as indicated by your Account.

You can check whether or not your Account has been verified by reviewing your verification status under the “My Profile” section of your Account.

Upon closure or suspension of your Account, you authorize Poloniex to cancel or suspend pending transactions."

They are saying they will restrict your ability to withdraw if you deposit stolen money, laundered money, or have a court order to not allow you access to the money, or very similar. They don't have the ability to not process withdrawals for arbitrary reasons as is happening with LiveCoin.

Further:

Wrong since it clearly states "If your account has otherwised been suspended or closed by Poloniex" which eludes to a previous section where they state your account may be closed if you violate their terms.

It's the same thing in different words. Get the flags out QS! I've got all night and will go over all the top exchanges terms and we shall see how many flags we need to create tomorrow :).

---

Snip from Bitfinex ToS:

"The Site may suspend or terminate the Services to you, your Digital Tokens Wallet, or to any of your Digital Tokens Address at its sole discretion, as required by applicable Laws or where Bitfinex determines that you have violated, breached, or acted inconsistent with any of these Terms of Service."

---

Snip from Binance ToS:

"10. Termination of Agreement
You agree that Binance shall have the right to immediately suspend your account (and any accounts beneficially owned by related entities or affiliates), freeze or lock the funds in all such accounts, and suspend your access to Binance for any reason including if it suspects any such accounts to be in violation of these Terms, our Privacy Policy, or any applicable laws and regulations. You agree that Binance shall not be liable to you for any permanent or temporary modification, suspension or termination of your Account or access to all or any portion of the Services. Binance shall have the right to keep and use the transaction data or other information related to such accounts. The above account controls may also be applied in the following cases:
after Binance terminates services to you;
you allegedly register or register in any other person’s name as Binance user again, directly or indirectly;
the information that you have provided is untruthful, inaccurate, outdated or incomplete;
when these Terms are amended, you expressly state and notify Binance of your unwillingness to accept the amended Terms;
you request that the Services be terminated; and
any other circumstances where Binance deems it should terminate the services."

---

Wrong again ???

They did notify users that withdrawing/depositing MONA had been suspended until further notice would be given.

I've laid out the more worrisome phrases in this post: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5159692.msg51720696#msg51720696
I'm not a lawyer, but it would probably be worth the expense to have one draft a user agreement that doesn't violate the law.



Did you?  As nutildah lays out clearly; on May 15, 2018 LiveCoin notices what they suspect to be a DDoS attack on MONA.  On June 7, 2018 they decide it's time to stop trading MONA and freeze the asset.  Three fucking weeks later?



I'm afraid we'll have to agree to disagree.   ::)

So is it the part of withholding their remaining funds or is it the reason for doing so? Since most major exchanges have various reasons where they can do so, livecoin are in no way unique with these terms.

It doesn't matter, the attackers had already sold fake MONAs on Livecoin until the network of Mona was stopped by team.

Wonderful. Please post here once you have sent the tx, since you are such a strong believe that this arrangement is entirely ethical, and in no way a scam.

So you are just going to keep changing the narrative time and time again? How about retracting your statement that Livecoin did not notify their users?

EDIT; Are you going to flag all the exchanges that traded b2x too? I know some people that lost serious money on that..

Both!  Just because they write in their terms of service that they can shit on my lawn every morning doesn't mean it's legal for them to shit on my lawn every morning.  It's my lawn, I signed their user agreement, but there are other laws that govern where they can and cannot shit.

Exchanges are bound by law to freeze assets of known criminals, terrorists, and money launders.  That's the only legal precedent they have for freezing a clients account.  Posting mean things on social media doesn't give them the right to freeze a clients assets.  Not only that, doing so is a violation of the law, and plain old common sense.  Who the fuck does that?  You wouldn't have withheld QS's last sig campaign payment even though he was slandering you.

Not to mention their ToS sounds like it was written by some one who has never used English in daily conversation, and it's full of stupid shit like "causing troubles."  Please define "causing troubles" and explain to me how to avoid it, so as to prevent my account from being locked.  

Please find similar clauses in Coinbase's or Binance's user agreements.

Changing the narrative? No. I am just pointing out that you are unwilling to put your money where your mouth is in claiming that what LiveCoin is doing is not a scam.

Feel free to prove me wrong.

And the part about Livecoin allegedly selling non-existent coins to their clients


Does that make them scammers? If it doesn't, then it is not a point for discussion or debate here. But you can lay out that draft elsewhere


That doesn't make them scammers, so no point in discussing it any further


That's why we need further information and more detail from the exchange. More specifically, for the case in question we need to know when exactly OP had been trading this shitcoin, i.e. after the attack and before the announcement or after the announcement. The former is the window for which he can presumably require compensation unless he was deliberately trying to milk the exchange (read, he is the real scammer)

As you can see, there is not much against LiveCoin which cannot at the same time be turned against OP


No one is going to prove you wrong because the burden of proof is on the accuser. So far no valid proofs have been presented other than locking the account. This is the part which the exchange should address

I did here: Snip from Binance ToS:

"10. Termination of Agreement
You agree that Binance shall have the right to immediately suspend your account (and any accounts beneficially owned by related entities or affiliates), freeze or lock the funds in all such accounts, and suspend your access to Binance for any reason including if it suspects any such accounts to be in violation of these Terms, our Privacy Policy, or any applicable laws and regulations. You agree that Binance shall not be liable to you for any permanent or temporary modification, suspension or termination of your Account or access to all or any portion of the Services. Binance shall have the right to keep and use the transaction data or other information related to such accounts. The above account controls may also be applied in the following cases:
after Binance terminates services to you;
you allegedly register or register in any other person’s name as Binance user again, directly or indirectly;
the information that you have provided is untruthful, inaccurate, outdated or incomplete;
when these Terms are amended, you expressly state and notify Binance of your unwillingness to accept the amended Terms;
you request that the Services be terminated; and
any other circumstances where Binance deems it should terminate the services."

I've found it in several different terms of several different exchanges.

---

Are you extorting me then? Since my options are either A) Send 0.15BTC to you and expect nothing in return or B) call Livecoin a scam. Am I understanding you correctly here?

---

It feels to me like we need to determine what it is we are arguing here, it is taking far too many different directions.

Look, we have a "concerned" service defender here. Isn't it nice to get paid to defend the service you're advertising? I see you're a man of manners as well. Quit with paragraphs long text that doesn't mean shit just like every other of your post and let the concerned members of the forum deal with it.

---

Thousands of members are victims to exchange scams every day and I'd totally support it if someone is standing against it. I like the idea of @Hampuz trying to get the user's fund back and settle it all down but a concrete medium must be established so LiveCoin doesn't fuck-over other members in the future.

lol, so you admit that you would not actually be receiving anything valuable in return?

Your reading comprehension is way off today QS, I'll get back to you when you have something worth replying to.

Which is it? Would the 0.15 give you nothing of economic value? Or would it actually allow you to speculate on the value of 10 ETH? BTW, 10 ETH is currently worth 0.267BTC.

This is good, if someone has the time it would be nice to find all the exchanges that have these bullshit ToS and flag them all. If anything the newbie/high probability of loss of funds flag should be placed on all of their active main forum accounts. Saying that Livecoin.net can do it because other exchanges located in belize..malta..cyprus and every other non regulated country do it is wrong and a non-argument.

This is exactly why markets need to be frozen after an attack. When a coin wallet is closed on an exchange it means arbitrage is no longer possible so the only trading that occurs is with the coin balances that already exist on the exchange ledger. It means that people who have a large coin balance on there (e.g. whales, coin developers and the exchange themselves) can manipulate the price because more coins at a lower price bought at another exchange or from a HoDL cannot be sent to the exchange.

I've never once called the terms shady nor have I said that other exchanges are scams. These are words you and others in this thread use. But yes I do agree with you, let us dictate which exchanges are good (:

I'm sure Mt. gox or quadrigawhatever in canada har bullet proof terms of service.

Not even close to "causing trouble" or publishing information from customer service.


I think there are at least two somewhat linked but different issues: user's account, and MONA fork/attack.

IMO at the very least Livecoin should unlock the OP's account regardless of "trouble" caused.

Beyond that there is a lot of precedent of how to properly handle forks and other issues, and it would be great if they choose a customer-friendly approach instead of expecting that coin developers (who don't really decide how many confirmations an exchange should wait for a deposit) compensate the losses of a private business. But I would begrudgingly admit that Livecoin can tell the customer to get lost (sell the coins at a loss, withdraw proceeds) and it wouldn't be too different from how most exchanges have treated their customers. Doesn't make it ethical or right, just a sad state of affairs, and probably not against the law in whatever backwater jurisdiction it operates in.

Having that term in their TOS doesn't mean they withhold deposits for arbitrary reasons. None of the above cited exchanges are withholding deposits for arbitrary reasons, and to my knowledge are only doing so when there are KYC/AML, probable stolen funds, or very similar issues. Some exchanges also delay withdrawals when they suspect the customer's account is hacked, and when they are upgrading their systems, and performing other maintenance. No exchange is disallowing the withdrawal of a coin for in excess of a year.

Quite an eloquent use of vague-enough legalese, carefully crafted to protect binance from having done something they shouldn't have either "accidentally" or intentionally due to some "misinformation."  But note the absence of anything resembling "The Customer guarantees not to disclose any information, obtained from the Service support operator," or "Violation of this rule will lead to the account termination without refunding of the remaining balance of the account," and certainly no mention of "causing troubles."  

So, if I were to hypothetically say "Binance tech support told me Changpeng Zhao's second-cousin's crotch is infested with the fleas of 1000 mangy curs," I'll still be able to access my binance account tomorrow, and don't have to worry about them stealing my money.

If you read their entire ToS it can be construed as such. Since they state that they can these things if they "Violate their terms". It is just worded differently and better.

---

From their response in this thread they stated that they could/would unlock OP's account, did they not? And if the OP did as LiveCoin claims, threat their staff (we don't have the full details) then there may be more to this than what is being displayed here. This is why I believe some users seem a bit trigger happy. And it does not matter if I agree with you or not, I have in fact messaged LiveCoin (when I first saw this thread) about at the very least remove/change some of the terms in question.

---

But now you are just making assumptions of what happened, no? Do you have full records of what was said between the OP and or LiveCoin and their staff? I don't and have seen no such thing as of yet either. If we are to act solely on assumptions then there's some other prominent scam accusation that coincidentally QS is involved in where some of you need to step in and tag the user/s in question.

Someone has done that already with several of the common exchanges.

Perhaps.  I may have misinterpreted this post:


But that's not something I care to argue.  What I am more concerned about is the words of LiveCoin themselves, which I do not believe I am mistinterpreting:


There is nothing even remotely resembling that in Binance's ToS.  If I post of a message that I received from their customer support on twitter, Binance isn't going to take my money.  LiveCoin will, they said so.

And that is the one thing I am trying to get them to change but I can't force them to do so. However I don't think it is cause enough to call a service a scam but that opinion will (evidently) differ.

From what I saw they blocked OP's account due to repeated offenses, threats and demands to be made whole on the loss of value on their original purchase of MONA. So if we were to play around with the idea that they did disable the trading pairs for the effected crypto/s (which I advised them to do in my communication with them), and it in fact was proven that OP did not get blocked simply for posting a thread such a this, would the issue still be as severe?

This is inconsequential to the matter at hand. And not just the Binance part of the story but the whole thingy with ToS. Okay, we have a totally legit and clear-cut ToS, will it prevent an exchange (a coin mixer, online casino, or whatever entity you can think of) from scamming if they choose so (think Cryptsy here)? Not in the least. Does a crappy ToS necessarily turn an exchange or any other entity into scammers? Not in the least, either. It is what they do and not what is written in their ToS which ultimately matters here (and here reads in this accusation)

The bottom line is that, we should put these terms of service aside if we want to resolve the accusation

Alone, the existence of shitty language in their user agreement isn't enough to label an outfit a scam.  But when they take the shitty language literally and act on it, committing a crime in the process, that changes things.  I'm not saying this happened, but it appears the OP was threatened with this possibility.  Not cool.

They should get on it then. I didn't get that impression though. And their posts in their Russian thread seem to indicate the opposite.


Mostly irrelevant, at least to me. I supported the flag after Livecoin came over here and confirmed that they're holding customer's funds hostage because the customer posted some "information". I don't particularly trust the OP's story and I don't have to, but whatever the OP may have posted doesn't excuse Livecoin confiscating OP's funds.

I've asked them and will continue to communicate with them regarding posting their side of the story. What they told me in PM's is the only reason I'm trying to work towards a solution fwiw.

If it's their policy to not share any information regarding specific accounts in public we might have an issue but let's just see what tomorrow brings (I expect them to have some representatives available here then).

Telling the end user to contact the developers of Mona and Monero doesn't lend any help to Livecoin's situation either. I believe many exchanges/developers/wallets work together to solve bugs/problems/attacks with various coins. Not sure if it is a language thing or that Livecoin believes it is solely the developers fault and that they need to be 100 percent compensated but something is majorly wrong if they can not open a channel with the developers when coins like Monero are being actively traded, and safely at that for quite awhile since the bugs/attacks.

I agree with you. However it seemed as if they were trying to get in contact with MONA but they ignored them? But again it's hard to make decisions and form judgement based on assumption.

They need to drop this policy and do some damage control. If I have to look at their avatars and signatures daily but can not hear from them during an active scam accusation then there is something wrong. Companies have PR teams, use them and not signature campaign managers / participants. Honestly it looks worse the longer it goes.. hence why people are leaving the signature campaign. They are hiding behind you and the other Livecoin signature participants Hhampuz.. not everyone is out to get you.. most, but not all ;)

Props for trying to follow through but I hardly see anything changing, its why they operate out of Belize with an unknown team. Assumption or not that one is pretty clear as to why these places are chosen as a company's operating location.

None of this back and forth matters. The development team is not financially responsible for securing anything short of proving them having been actively engaged in fraud. Everyone invests in these projects at their own risk. Exchanges are responsible for securing assets under its control. The fact that it sat around for months getting robbed is something any halfway competent IT security team would have detected, and is not the responsibility of the development team. As a result of its own negligence it is apparent they are insolvent and do not have the requisite coins to represent its actual token allotment. Given that sorting this out is way more complicated than could be done by such a half assed run company, let alone a team that would have noticed this problem earlier, they are in way over their heads.

Right now I would estimate they are trying to quietly buy into this token and buying time to do so cheaply as they continue to collect trading fees. Holding a customers coins hostage for months is the kind of thing that tends to drive a coins price down. This whole time they are also trying to fumble thru what if any fraudulent accounts are left holding any funds hoping it is significant enough to fill the gap.

Livecoin needs to come clean and stop playing backdoor games. If they don't this is going to be much worse than simply the loss of this one coin holding. Admit fault, issue temporary not withdraw-able tokens to represent the lost funds to be fulfilled over time. Another option would be to "socialize" the losses and give every token holder a haircut for immediate withdrawl. Obviously not going to be popular but being honest about it at least allows people who are not willing to tolerate this response the opportunity to pick other exchanges for future use. Look into the way BTC-E handled it, IMO they did a good job in basically the worst of circumstances. It was a much different cause, but a similar scenario regarding obligations to the customer base but on a larger scale.

I showed a full history of correspondence with them, why should I hide something, if it will be easily proved?

full records you can read here (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5159692.20).
They have already accused me of many times but have never presented evidence, while I always showed them. In the end, according to their words, I was blocked for lying, but if you follow their rules, then lying to is not prohibited, so until now they have not presented any reason for blocking!

Because of their disgusting attitude, for almost a month I did not have access to my money! Why should I incur losses because of their disgusting attitude?!

My understanding is that Livecoin expected them to orchestrate some sort of bailout/rollback fork to reverse their losses. The Monacoin developers refused, which is a perfectly respectable position for developers of a POW protocol. An impasse was reached and Livecoin never did anything to rectify the issue and compensate their customers.

Same with Monero. Livecoin simply expects the Monero developers to pay them $1.8 million to reimburse their losses. Legally, the developers have no liability. It's right in their software license! On the other hand, Livecoin is legally liable for the deposits its customers made and now won't pay out.

The way Livecoin is acting, you really have to wonder how deeply insolvent they might be.

That's what happens when you add too many "trash assets" to the exchange and forget to follow how they do.

Other exchanges should see this as an example and stop adding "trash assets" which can get 51% attacked.

Safety first.

Let's see how Bittrex will protect against attack 51%

https://i.ibb.co/0FRNwyK/bittrex.jpg

I also spoke about it earlier

---

One can conjecture about anything they choose to all day long, as some are doing in this thread. Doesn't mean anything, doesn't help anything, doesn't change anything.

The entire issue still revolves around 1 person's complaints against Livecoin. Insolvency would likely involve limiting withdrawals across several other coins than just the 2 they have issues with. You can bet far more than one customer would be complaining about it here. Who else commenting in this thread besides OP has been negatively affected by Livecoin?

As I mentioned earlier the BiteBTC scam accusation thread has literally hundreds of people reporting being ripped off by them, yet there had never been any DT action taken against them until I tagged them several months ago, and after the flag system was introduced, encouraged people who had been scammed to create a flag (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=4612714.msg51465007#msg51465007).

Despite BiteBTC being a much more clear cut example of an exchange engaging in persistent, habitual wrongdoing, only 3 DTs have supported their flag (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=trust;flag=249), meanwhile 16 DTs have supported this one...

I'm not saying what Livecoin did was cool, and I hope they reimburse OP with 0.08 BTC or the PPC he had purchased with it (not sure whats actually in his balance), plus the BTC worth of his current MONA stash at Livecoin prices. Exchanges that suffer losses take customer funds all the time by means of "haircuts," which they also justify in their user terms. Its not a great policy, but it does happen.

The only winner here is Quickseller. This is exactly what he hoped would happen. Is there any doubt that he wouldn't give two shits about OP's problem if he hadn't been kicked from the Livecoin campaign? He's had this long-running, stupid smear campaign against Hhampuz for quite some time now; I bet he's enjoying every minute of this.


The term "trash asset" is being used by Livecoin to refer to coins created by the fraudulent version of the MONA chain, and whatever b.s. it was that created the extra XMR coins. It is not referring to the actual coins themselves.

Insolvency just means inability to pay their obligations. For an exchange Livecoin's size -- even if it's just limited to those two coins -- millions of dollars may be nothing to sneeze at. I don't want to speculate too much about that, but we should acknowledge that -- unlike many other exchanges in their position -- they made no move to make their customers whole. That's a red flag.

The OP put forth the scam accusation, but he's certainly not the only one complaining. Here are a few other examples:

https://www.reddit.com/r/Monero/comments/c40uqf/i_obtained_some_monero_at_wwwlivecoinnet_almost_2/
https://www.reddit.com/r/Monero/comments/brd4nf/livecoinnet_xmr_wallet_offline/
https://www.reddit.com/r/Monero/comments/7m64dy/anyone_know_why_livecoin_doesnt_allow_monero/
https://www.reddit.com/r/livecoin/comments/9q005m/disabled_monero_wallet/

I've also seen complaints about other long-term disabled wallets but I'm not sure on the specifics. I see dozens of coins listed with "N/A" under withdrawal fee -- Monacoin and Monero included -- on Livecoin's site. Can anyone confirm whether those wallets are disabled? Are they like Yobit, keeping various wallets in "maintenance" for months/years at a time?

And what should we do?

I think we should ask these DT members to go and flag them as well (those who didn't already). As it is pretty obvious that the BiteBTC case has way more solid evidence of scamming as well as way more people complaining about their practices, we would arguably expect all these DT members to line up to flag BiteBTC, right? So what are you waiting for, guys? Or rather, what are you actually fighting for (or against)?

because this forum is filled of corrupted people and crew of bastards
we know they

if no one want to say the names, i can do because i have no fear  ;)


I've gone beyond the truth - It's just another lie

Unfortunately 51% attacks are cheap the perform on small coin networks.  

Even 100 confirmations will not guarantee network safety.  I've seen longer 51% attack double spends. It also will make things like arbitrage much more difficult for the honest users of the exchange.


It depends on the agreement that livecoin has with the developers. A lot of times developers pay to get their coin onto an exchange - that often is accompanied with contractual obligations.

With a 51% attack with double spend the exploit does not occur on the exchange. The coin networks gives valid confirmations that are later tricked into being orphaned by privately mined blocks.

It means that those mined blocks are neither from a decentralized coin network and also shows that the blockchain is not immutable.

Coin developers have the ability to introduce check-pointing or utilizing a hybrid system that makes it more difficult to mount such an attack on the network.

How does a double spend 51% attack work ? Explanation and examples. (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5035336.msg46025953#msg46025953)

So now you can steal money from 1 user, is that normal? And after he stops complaining, can you rob the next one? The main thing is not to rob both at the same time, you're just a genius!

Yes and conjecturing means making assumptions based on incomplete information. You are conjecturing that Livecoin is insolvent. That is simply your guess, wholly unsupported by any _actual_ evidence.


Livecoin only lost $90k to the Monacoin attack. If you add in XMR, the total is still less than $1.9 million.... Not exactly "millions of dollars." Semantics aside, sounds like Livecoin also is blaming Monero devs for a "double counting bug" that was a part of the Monero wallet software. From the Monero reddit (https://www.reddit.com/r/Monero/comments/brd4nf/livecoinnet_xmr_wallet_offline/):


Giving their customers a chance to exit their "trash asset" holdings (fake MONA and XMR) for BTC could be construed as a "haircut."

Other exchanges that have given haircuts to funds of all or some of their customers include:

- Bitfinex
- Poloniex
- OKEx
- Coincheck
- DragonEX
- Cryptopia (before its hack)

Its not a great policy but its a pretty widespread one.

One thing I'd like to know that izooomrud never disclosed was when he bought the MONA.

He says the following:


0.3 BTC / 750 = 0.0004 BTC. If this was approximately the price he paid for it, it means he bought the coins around June 18th, 2018. This was the first day of 2018 where MONA sank to this price. If the coins were already trading at a discount (impossible to verify because Livecoin's MONA trading history doesn't go back that far), it may have been a week or so earlier, but still well after the attack, and after Livecoin had halted deposits and withdrawals for MONA. Technically he never bought MONA at all, but the "trash asset," non-chain version. So they could NEVER "return" them to him as withdrawals had been suspended the entire time. Admittedly I don't know why they would continue allowing it to be traded other than:

- they wanted to give their holders the ability to exit it for BTC
- they held out hope that they would someday have the MONA to fill user accounts.

As I can't read Russian I also can't figure out the date OP was locked out of his account. Was it very recently? Did he just let the MONA sit in his account the whole time while the Livecoin MONA wallet remained offline?


Despite you being an uppity, nightmare-type customer, no, I don't think they should lock you out of your funds. But you have to understand they simply can't give you MONA to withdraw, because they don't have it. Sounds like you harped on them for months about this issue, refusing to understand you couldn't withdrawal the MONA - you never could at any point - until they finally became fed up with you.

Who else here feels "robbed" by Livecoin? Anyone? This is the point I've been trying to make all along -- this remains an isolated incident which has received far more attention than it should.

It seems like everybody who wished to, has already expressed their opinion on the situation. We would like to put in our two cents, too, and to convey our thoughts on what’s happening.
Instead of trying to resolve the issue through our support service, this user began to blame the Exchange at different forums. He was well aware, that libel and slander is violating terms of services and can lead to blocking of the account.

“Sorry that I’m posting it from another account, because I am worried about the integrity of my remaining funds, knowing how the SS (Support service) responses in topics, I wouldn’t be surprised if it is blocked.”

“Aha-ha, they have blocked my account after all, – and only for voicing my opinion, how I got busted, is not clear, of course”

Even after our support service suggested several solutions of the conflict, namely – removal of slanderous posts, he kept lying further on:

This  rule has been in the User agreement from the very beginning, and that user accepted it when he registered at our Exchange.

That’s what has been pointed out to him in the thread.


As it turned out, Livecoin wasn’t the first Exchange he accused of scam, in his twitter he abused the other exchanges, too:
 
@Izooomrud
 22 Dec 2017
Replying to @hitbtc
Hitbtc = scum!
https://twitter.com/Izooomrud/status/944284509675155456 (https://twitter.com/Izooomrud/status/944284509675155456)

@Izooomrud
 7 Jan 2018
Replying to @YobitExchange
Yobit cкaм!
https://twitter.com/Izooomrud/status/950110547080605696 (https://twitter.com/Izooomrud/status/950110547080605696)

@Izooomrud
 9 Jan 2018
@BithumbOfficial what a truble with withdrawals ETH?!
https://twitter.com/Izooomrud/status/950684807905906691 (https://twitter.com/Izooomrud/status/950684807905906691)

@Izooomrud
 Jun 7
Replying to @hitbtc
you say the same thing, but continue to do nothing, even if you return my funds to me, I have already lost a lot in the fall of the course
https://twitter.com/Izooomrud/status/1137061606020538374 (https://twitter.com/Izooomrud/status/1137061606020538374)

In the beginning we were also inclined to think, that he is just a loser-trader, surrounded by “scam” exchanges only, but his unwillingness to solve the issue, his constant insults, slander – lead to different conclusions.

He himself is not denying that he post a fake information and doing a black PR:

“all right, let’s assume the information is false, but which clause of your Exchange rules says that it is prohibited to defame it?”

Due to difficulties with translation, and probably to stir up sympathy of the community, he posted incorrect translation of his correspondence with the Support service in an English-speaking thread of the forum. For example, the original screenshot shows a notification, that the account has been temporarily frozen (suspended), but he translated it as “blocked”.  There is a tremendous difference between TEMPORARILY suspended and BLOCKED, isn’t it, and we fully understand  the reaction of the community.

Because originally he posted at different forums under different nicknames, some restrictions have been actually imposed on his account, until all his multi-accounts were found out and investigation was made.

Our Support service suggested several solutions of the problem – but he deliberately headed for a conflict, it is obvious out of all his messages, that the funds' withdrawal is not of such an importance for him, the main thing is to black PR our Exchange as much as possible.
We always carry on negotiations with all the violators, as a result, we give an opportunity to withdraw the frozen funds, and only after that the account is completely shut-down.
Nevertheless, in this case, such a large-scale campaign has been launched against our Exchange because of such an insignificant amount of funds, that, apparently, the said user is not seeking to unblock his account, but he makes every effort to keep it blocked for as long as possible, and speculates on that, while continuing to black PR and affront. We are not sure why he is doing that, on his own or at somebody else’s order.

Concerning all the attacks on the User agreement. If you read a User agreement of any exchange, you will find a warning, that cryptocurrency is a high-risk asset, and before making any operations with it (for example buying of toxic assets), it is necessary to study all potential risk, exposures, etc. More to that, the major part of the trader’s job is about the risk analysis, and possible losses are put into the core of the strategy.

Every exchange has certain clauses in its User agreement, fighting libel and abuse against the exchange and its staff. Some exchanges block the account at once without investigation, some (like us) run a conversation and, before blocking the account, try to help to settle the situation, in order to provide an opportunity to withdraw the funds.

It is commonly known, that positive reviews on the internet are quite rare, if a person is satisfied with a service or product – he takes it for granted, and doesn’t visit a forum to give a positive opinion about that. Thant is why we are distressed by the position of some community members, which, even not being clients of our Exchange, instead of looking into the situation as a whole, when saw some false allegations about “groundless” shut-down of the account and “theft of funds” of this user, were ready to support him.

Livecoin has been a member of this forum for many years, we always send the beginners here for guidance, since we are sure that this is the right place where the people can find the information they need and ask questions they have. Yet it makes no sense to block users without any reason and to lock small amounts at their balances. Yes, there always might be some unsatisfied customers, who make mistakes through lack of experience, but instead of trying to analyze them and make conclusions, start blaming everyone else for their failures. Nevertheless, these are only a few, there any many more users successfully trading at our Exchange for years.

Attention! Livecoin exchange is under massive Black PR attack. A lot of accounts spread fake information.
We ask our clients to help us by posting of positive messages or support our Exchange with trust.

Let's get to the point, you (livecoin) have his funds and refusing to unlock his account even though you don't have a valid reason. (at least that's how I see it)

Posting a giant wall of text won't change this fact.

The question here is: "WHY?"

Let's move from here.

You know I'm not a big fan of Quickseller but him supporting this accusation doesn't make it any less valid. I would prefer him to not use this for personal attacks against Hhampuz, just as I would prefer you to not turn this into a Quickseller conspiracy, but we can't have everything we want, can we :)


LOL

As I warned Hhampuz, there is no indication Livecoin is interested in de-escalation. Enjoy the red label.

So instead of addressing the issue & making things right, you ask your users to spam, which is against forum rules BTW.

The last time I heard the phrase "Black PR attack" was from the Worldcore scammers, just before they went down. They were Russian too, coincidently.....

I think that the flag holds some merit AND Quickseller is using the situation to exact his revenge.

And as stated by the criteria for opposing a flag: I believe that it is at least partially false, which is why I am in opposition to it. I can break down the ways in which it is "partially false" for you if you'd like, but I think everybody's said everything they have to say by this point.

I still hold out out hope that izooomrud and Livecoin can eventually reach some kind of resolution.

Dance monkey.

I am interested in something else, why these people have so much time for such things. I occasionally go to the topics, sometimes I can write something but rarely. I just have no time.
The market is now very active and with risk you can get a tangible profit. So, the question is - if black PR is not the main type of activity of these people, then when do they work?

But, you know, facts don’t really matter. Do they?

It is clear that your opinion can be bought for something less than 0.02 btc/week. As such, it is worthless.

If you were a legitimate exchange you would be spending this attention on you by explaining what happened and how you are going to address it, not by repeating yourself, pointing more fingers, and begging for people to say nice things about you. You are fighting a losing battle. Every move you make exposes your weakness more and more. You clearly don't intend on taking the advice of any of the experienced members of the community here, so enjoy the inevitable failure of your exchange as your reputation rots from the inside out.

Don't feed the trolls and don't talk with stupid,is an free advice :)

De rustica progenie, semper villana fuit.

What kind of solutions you proposed to this user (izooomrud) BEFORE his negative feedbacks?
Please, voice all of them to us.

Yep, again: What solutions do you proposed to him?


I.e nerds, jacks of all trades, trolls.
I've corrected your post a little.

It's not libel or slander if it's true.  And even if it was libel or slander, one crime does not justify another.  It's illegal to block, temporarily suspend, or otherwise prevent the client's access to his assets unless you've been instructed to do so by a law enforcement agency, or he has used your platform to commit a crime.  Not only are you breaking the laws of almost every civilized country (and admitting it in your own ToS,) it's also unethical.



Really?  This is your plan to fix your broken image?


So, now that you've gotten the rant about the OP off of your chest, how about you explain why you allowed trading of a hacked fork on your system for THREE WEEKS after suspecting the breach within hours?  Please explain why you think the dev team is responsible for your actions.  Did you earn any commissions while trading the hacked fork?  Did you pocket the commission you earned by trading the hacked fork?

It's not the words of some random disgruntled client on the internet that's ruining your reputation, it's your own words and actions.

I gotta take a break from Google Translate otherwise I'll have nightmares in Cyrillic tonight (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5162726.msg51753879#msg51753879). I think this is at an impasse. Livecoin thinks they have enough support to ignore the flag and the remaining signature bearers won't budge either. Not sure what else can be said or done here.

They will ignore the flag whether we support them or not

I think that should be abundantly clear by now given the reply they have posted today. And to see things in the proper perspective, it is not just "the remaining signature bearers" who oppose the flag (truth be told, I do not, yet). There are quite a few forum members who just disagree with this mostly unfounded accusation. But you can always accuse them of having vested interests in this affair (like, for example, using that exchange themselves, or whatever)

The signature bearers are the only ones who might have some influence. Whether that would be enough to sway Livecoin or not - that's another discussion. I'd think that the amount they spend on advertising here is a good indication that they see value in it and perhaps wouldn't want to lose it over a ridiculous TOS clause.

The accusation is fully supported by Livecoin's own words so you can't really call it "unfounded". Perhaps you meant "insignificant" enough for you to keep carrying the signature. As for "vested interests" - I would refer you back to the aforementioned TOS... it's more of a hostage situation.

The tail wags the dog?

And what influence do we have exactly? Tomorrow (technically, Wednesday) is the payday which may well turn out to be the last day of the LiveCoin signature campaign. And if it does end tomorrow, it will be the impasse you are talking about. Ironically, to resolve the situation every party here (well, mostly) should be interested in the continuation of the campaign as all of us ("the signature bearers") are unanimous that the account should be unlocked, the user let in and then let out (more like kicked out, but you get the point)

The signature bearers are continuing to support LiveCoin via advertising their signature in exchange for payment.

Ideally, a reputable signature bearer would cease displaying their signature once they determine that LiveCoin has scammed at least one of their customers as is the case here.

I don’t think the signature campaign is going to end. Hhampuz needs the money too much to close the campaign down and LiveCoin wants the advertising. It appears there are enough people with positive reputation (on its face — this will likely change) who are willing to ignore the scam in return for the 0.02 they are receiving.

After reading through this thread and seeing livecoin admit to holding the users account "hostage" until he removes all the negative press against them, I've formed the opinion that all users should cease wearing the advertisement for them and the campaign should be closed.

This essentially is no different than the Betcoin issue. The monetary amount is different, but a scam is a scam. Everyone sure had an opinion on that issue and pressured users wearing the sig to remove the signature.

It's ridiculous for the exchange to have such shady ToS knowing full well most users probably do not read them anyways. Basically they have admitted to wrongdoing(even though in their minds they are right), they don't really care about the bitcointalk communities opinion or they wouldn't hold the OPs coins hostage until he removed comments.

Sometimes pressure from this community is what gets things done, and users have a right to voice their opinions or concerns.

Can someone link me to all flags against this exchange, i'll give some support. I would also like to ask community opinion on the campaign continuing?

The only flag that I am aware of is the OP. He gives the link in the first post. However, here is the link, again.  https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=trust;flag=308

This is really and interesting statement from an exchange, you are blaming a user for him complaining about you and calling out your shady behavior and using it as an argument to save your repo.

This in no way is going to solve the problems here or inclined people to believe your decisions are right. Its a simple come-out through this situation for you, which is just unlock the person's account and let him enjoy his shitcoins, or compensate the loss with any other crypto.

You would probably get lots of bad reviews on twitter from any of your costumers, that doesn't mean you would get garb hold of all his assets on your exchange. You are just avoiding taking the right step here, as advised by many.


You really have a thrash sense of judgement, this issue is about a service and there reaction to a effected costumer, you are just steering the drama with you bullshit.

I would advice not taking this person serious, he just looks like wiping his ass with the livecoin signature here and accusing for his personal agendas.

Grow up !

Well at least I can say that I tried. I am not happy with the response LiveCoin gave in here and I have given them my notice that the Campaign will end after payments have been sent out tomorrow. And as I previously stated, flag me or neg me I really could not be bothered but I'll be damned if I ever succumb to bullying by users who's entire existence appears to be spreading negativity and putting others down. But then I've come to expect nothing short of just that which is why this forum matters less and less with each day passing by.

@OP. Hope your situation gets a resolution, I'm officially done and I'm out of here.

You did your best to make them understand the situation and do things right and that alone shows your strong character. Its really sad to see all efforts going wasted. I am also out of supporting Livecoin after reading their recent reply.

Here you go https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=trust;flag=308

Someone who is keeping other people's money without their will should not be advertised. Not only it is theft by exchange, it is morally wrong to advertise such service and campaign should be stopped until they resolve this.

Yaa, looks like a great campaign manager with ethics right ?

Why are your dragging yourself in baseless statements which you could not back up. Done with protecting a shaddy exchange and abusing the trust by claiming me as an alt account of QS! Nice judgement BTW.

Edit:

I see the trust removed thanks for doing the right thing @Hhampuz

Thanks for doing the right thing.

You can stop running. You made the hard choice. It probably doesn't seem like it right now, but long term it is for the best.

Even if the developers bear legal responsibility to Livecoin -- and that sounds doubtful -- that's between Livecoin and the developers. Livecoin has separate obligations to its customers. This whole "Bob holding Alice's money hostage until Joe pays him" thing is not legally or ethically kosher.


This involves much larger philosophical discussions. Arguably, checkpointing thwarts the entire purpose and validity of POW by establishing a "developer consensus" that overrides POW consensus. We shouldn't expect developers to add checkpoints before the fact, or to reverse attacks with forks after the fact.

If a service like Livecoin gets attacked, the losses are their own to bear. They can reassess the risks of listing the coin, require more confirmations and set up additional internal checks to detect such attacks, or they can de-list the coin entirely if its chain is too insecure.

But whatever they do, they should allow depositors to withdraw their coins. At the very least, they should be up front about the losses and establish a compensation plan rather than pointing the finger at open source developers. That will get them nowhere.

I fully agree with you
We can understand the situation and i hope, we choose best solution for the good of community

As campaign manager and in business you will get into situations where you are uncomfortable. It is not always possible to anticipate these things in advance. In my view you did the right thing. You tried to resolve it and am now distancing yourself from the client because they did not react in a way that is consistent with your ethics.

This has got to be the most interesting scam accusation I have read in a while, I read every comment on this thread and DAMN what money can do, looking at how some members are "protecting" their "Up to 0.02BTC/Week" despite all the evidence is pretty sad.

I mean at worst case scenario, one should stay away and wait for how things play out , but ignoring all the evidence and blindly defending them is plain stupid, tho it's clear as day that Livecoin can't do anything anymore about their reputation, everything about them needs to be fixed, starting from their TOS , technical and security teams and of course their customer support.

@Hhampuz

while i was scrolling down the pages and reading the comments, I was hopping to see such a post from you, I knew you would do the right thing as always, you are a great member whose manners and actions are not money-driven , please don't let this incident bring you down, nobody could have done better.

You did the right thing, at least you have tired and that shows why you're a passionately and quality manager irrespective of what those trying to paint you bad thinks. A scam is a scam no matter how small or big the lost of money involved is. I understand where your frustration is coming from as they finally got the last laugh but you should know it's all for the best. Sometimes you let them win especially when the project (in question) aren't worth fighting for as Livecoin exchange isn't showing any sign of change of heart to apologise to the affect customer and working things out with him, who knows how many more affected individuals are out there.  Glad the community worked this one out.

Who was earning on the signature and now will cease - say "thanks" to izooomrud (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=2407896)

Who bought a shitcoin and failed with it all of you can create new threads "Someexchange is scam support my flag guys"

https://avatars.mds.yandex.net/get-pdb/1780055/de333574-6cb9-4b6a-8248-29ddd459fb7f/s320

we are here not for earn, we are here for discuss about bitcoin & co

i want to understand just what had happened.. like other serius guy

honestly at moment i have a right idea what happened

but, when child use adults' tool, disasters always happen!

for this reason, in security/hacking world, this kind of elements (i mean toxic people) are literally destroyed..

So far it is far from being a win-win outcome for both parties as it is highly unlikely that Livecoin is going to change their mind any time soon given the circumstances. Whatever. But I still can't wrap my mind around what is being meant by "a casual or implied agreement" in the flag. So, can anyone explain to me in simple terms what that actually means?

Obviously, this question is not for OP as he can barely speak comprehensible English

I understood... yahoo62278 is campaigns manager not for his earn. He is here for discuss about bitcoin & co... Sounds interesting! )


But he lies in English great

You are, in my opinion, good guy. But for me sarcasm is hard to understand. Sorry and dont blame me.
I write exclusively in italian local board.

Glad to see you like to think I had something to do with Hhampuz closing the campaign. If you're going to talk about me in the local boards at least send me a link so i can dispute your claims.

OP could be a liar but the facts are facts. Livecoin openly admitted to holding the dudes coins. Their ToS is shit. The amount was pennies too which is baffling. You cannot hold a persons account/money hostage until they delete posts or bad publicity. If you don't like my opinion feel free to use that ignore button.

Thank you for your two cents, instead I will now give you facts worth at least $ 2. As I mentioned earlier, I am prepared to tolerate your attacks and attacks of your trolls. I will react to this by providing even more serious facts that will make you drown eventually.
I realize that the fight against rogues is not as difficult as it seems. After all, the crooks like you, do not have any truth behind themselves. Any lie can be easily distinguishable from truth since it is not supported by facts.
As we determined earlier, there is no such section of your rules that forbids me to tell lies (of course, I repeat that I did not lie!). Every time you are stating that I lied, I am demanding you to present the evidence. In turn, you never present any facts to support your statement and again you try to declare that I lie without providing supporting evidence. This looks to me like a crazy carousel.


What are you trying to achieve by doing this? Not long ago, I gave you an advice to remain silent. It’s unfortunate that you didn’t use it, because those who you are paying to whiten your stained reputation are doing much better job than you did. Yes, this is really my account, which I created to publish the whole truth about the problem you created. Why do not you publish the entire post, because it really came out good, since caused such a strange reaction from you. I am talking about the post that started all of this.
I explain why I did not use my real name to publish my posts. I found many unflattering reviews about you on the site of bestchange. Among those reviews there were reports stating that you are blocking people's accounts because of their posts about you. Then you are blackmailing these people, demanding to delete all the information they posted about you.


Therefore, I created a second account, but it did not help. You blocked my account 10 minutes after seeing my publication. Why did you block a user with a different login?! What if you simply made a mistake and blocked an innocent person, although I am also innocent, but we will speak from your point of view. In case, you blocked someone else’s account instead of mine, the person would have complained that you had no reasons to block his account. I never denied that I wrote those things. To some extent I am even glad that I discovered your problem and turned this aspen hive inside out. Hopefully this will teach you how to work with people and you will stop creating all this chaos!


What solutions you ae talking about? For how long I need to keep asking you the same questions and won’t receive any answers? The only thing that you proposed for settlement, it was to delete everything I posted about you, after which you promised to return my funds. There were no “SEVERAL” solutions! Only one solution - to delete everything! From my understanding, it is not possible to fulfill your requests, because with our combined efforts this problem was blown out to dramatical sizes. I believe, there is more effort from your side than mine because you lied and did not support your statements with evidence, where all I had to do is just tell the truth, which was not so difficult to do.
That's what you originally stated when I registered my account, and below is what it turned out to be. There is absolutely no difference, right?


Oh my God! "LiveCoin - is a modern stock exchange" went down and began to dig into someone else's underwear! How low of you! Well, let’s continue doing this since you started, because we can find a lot of instructive things for you, although judging by your answers it might not even help.


Yes, I had such a problem, please pay attention to the date. At that time, it was a big deal when the exchange did not fulfill its obligations. Many people wrote about this as well. But please make a note that they did not act like idiots and did not block me but resolved the problem!


And this is not a disputable fact, which everyone already knows about. If you need to discuss the problem associated with them, because even though they have surpassed you in this matter, you are trying your best to catch up with them.


And what's wrong about that? I tried to solve the problem, so what?


Then the problem with them repeated. They could not solve the problem of my deposit for a long time and it made me worry a lot. But in the end, they it has been resolved! They did not ignore me for 1.5 weeks, as you did! They were willing to work together, and we ALWAYS SOLVED any problems that occurred in any case. Therefore, I continue to use their exchange.

It is so funny to respond to your denials, as if I am communicating with a little offended child instead of adult!


The only losers here are you, who cannot solve a simple problem. I know that you stole my money and will not return it to me. Therefore, my goal was to spread the information about you, to prevent other people to repeat my mistake when working with you or make them not work with you at all.


Where exactly did I express my disagreement? I'm just shocked by what I have read and reply. I just cannot believe it, well, let's continue.



Yes, my English is not as good as I would like it to be, but what difference does it make (suspended vs blocked) if in both cases I cannot withdraw my funds? In both cases, when you blocked/suspended my account for no reason - you STOLEN my funds!


You continue to lie. As I stated before, I was offered only ONE solution to the problem - the removal of everything that I ever written about you, not SEVERAL solutions! This fact is proved by the screenshots I published, why do you continue to lie despite this?


You did not carry on negotiations; you simply ignored my problem for 1.5 weeks. Then for several more days I had to pull out information from you about the reasons for blocking/suspending my account. Once again you continue to lie despite undeniable facts, I'm shocked!
You are so stupid to create a huge conflict for such a small amount of money involved (by the standards of any stock exchange). Instead of simply returning all funds to the user, you were afraid that he would not delete the information posted about your problems and began to blackmail him by using his own money. And after a failed attempt, you came up with some kind of a fictional enemy. There is no better way to unite the people, than to declare that there is a common enemy that needs to be defeated.
You are wasting your time and ruining your own reputation, I don’t even help you with this. Therefore, you are again trying to find someone else to blame for this problem. Terrible enemy, black PR company etc. – nobody cares about you! You will do everything to destroy your reputation by your nasty attitude towards the client! You did not even try to change something and return all the money to its rightful owner. Instead, you continue to risk your reputation because of such insignificant amount of money, as you said.


I will tell you more, as soon as you return all my funds, I will say that I have no more complaints/questions and will leave you alone.

It looks like your goal is not to solve the problem by returning my money but to hide the fact that nothing was done to solve this problem. Instead you blackmailed me with my own money, asking me to delete all my posts so nobody would find out about your current problems. After you failed this, you tried to accuse me of using bad publicity! What's next? You'll try to accuse me with an “attack 51%”? What else will you come up?
You can blame me for anything, you can even say that I was the third shooter who klilled of John Kennedy! This it won't change anything, because you never give any supporting evidence!


As we can see from my earlier post, I also wrote a message to the hitbtc exchange - "hitbtc scum” regarding the same issue. They did they same thing as you; they did not return my money back and did not reply to my messages for a while. However, in their first message they apologized and explained the reason for the delay and why it took them too long to reply back to me. The conflict was resolved after that. The second time I've made a complaint, the problem was resolved quickly without any conflict! Isn't that what’s called “client - oriented” approach?
Which section of your rules I broke and why my account had to be blocked/suspended? You have no section in your rules that forbids people to lie!


In this case explain to me the real reason, because according to your rules/user agreement it is not prohibited to lie (which I did not do anyway)! Why are you calling the allegations false if I supported it with the evidence? My money is still in your possession (and you do not deny it) but I did not give you permission to hold them and have been requesting to withdraw it since 06/18/19. This means my money are stolen by you! We've been discussing this so many times already.


Stop talking nonsense - - I didn't lose money because I made bad trade. I lost them because you lost them during “attack 51%”! On top of that, you stole more of my money after I went public and told people about you.


What accounts are you talking about? I'm the only one person talking about this problem, and you already had such problems. What will happen when someone will be seriously fighting with you? You're burying yourself with that kind of behavior.


From this statement it looks like they are going involve fake accounts or to pay other users to fight the flag. All of this instead of just giving my money back and end this up!
You can keep doing these stupid things, you can pay other users so they support you. I will continue to fight your accusations and attacks from your bought defenders, because I have the truth behind me and all you have are lies and money that you trying to use to cover those lies!

You can't buy everyone and I still will have people who support me me, because they know I am telling the truth and they will be with me till the end. I'm so grateful for this! once again, I say thank you to all people for not leaving me alone in this difficult situation!

Unfortunately I have to agree with you here and will be removing my signature at the end of the day. We tried to steer them in the right direction, but it does not appear they want to be steered.

Lol. You are removing your signature at the end of the day because their signature campaign is ending at that time and you will no longer be getting paid to advertise for them. Based on your recent posts, it is very clear that you would be more than happy to keep their signature on if the campaign would continue.

Exchange has provided evidence of hacking? If not, then this is 100% fraud.

There are other victims albeit behind the language barrier: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5162726.msg51756534#msg51756534

tl;dr: Someone had their account and their spouse's account blocked for the same (or similar) TOS clause. Had it unblocked just recently after 2 months.

It’s good to know you believe it is okay for someone to selectively scam those who do business with you. This has been noted.

Well, you write in the trust to others, just personal distaste https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5157967.msg51599886#msg51599886. Personally, I hope that you finally will fly from DT, liars do not belong there.

I provided links to several other complaints about Livecoin. You're focusing on the OP, but to me, Livecoin's confirmed practice of permanently disabling wallets in these situations is scam behavior. Doing so causes the market to price in their insolvency. This effectively passes on all losses to depositors, who are left holding worthless un-backed tokens on Livecoin that can't be withdrawn. That's why XMR is 70% cheaper than everywhere else.

The Monero scandal is much bigger than the Monacoin one. A year later, with Livecoin still pointing the finger at Monero's developers, I think we can conclude that they will never repay their XMR depositors. More than 15K XMR was stolen in the attack -- $1.8 million at the time -- which suggests even more XMR was stolen by Livecoin from their depositors when they permanently disabled withdrawals. There are complaints all over the internet, so please don't act like they must be confined to this thread for you to acknowledge their existence.

One complaint initiated the thread - there are more complaints.  I posted this earlier in the thread.  I think the fact that their legal structure appears to be based on untruths is concerning.

I don't know how comfortable this sits with you:


Source: https://www.cointelligence.com/exchanges_list/livecoin/
Archived: http://web.archive.org/web/20190709230333/https://www.cointelligence.com/exchanges_list/livecoin/



https://i.imgur.com/vfPhxpI.png

http://web.archive.org/web/20190709232103/https://www.finder.com/livecoin-exchange-review

Initially Livecoin claimed to be run by UK company DELTA E-COMMERCE LTD

But a search from the companies office shows that they had an exemption from filing financial accounts because they NEVER TRADED and were eventually struck off

https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/08146865/filing-history

https://i.imgur.com/PuNePMK.png
https://www.bestbitcoinexchange.net/en/livecoin-net/

https://i.imgur.com/FCrENfG.png

https://i.imgur.com/aHHoenf.png

You mean people don't want to come forward and post about a problem with an exchange that locks your funds for doing so? Shocking!

According to that logic, if someone finds a cockroach in a KFC bowl you'd not hesitate to eat at the same place just because "it's 1 complaint by 1 user"? Interesting point of view.

It all starts with one user and should be rectified at this stage before thousands are victims to it. Most of the scummy exchanges as we have seen in the past started showing signs of scams by targetting only selective users.

Livecoin also posted snips from OP's Twitter.. so they combed through OP's social media looking for ammo/dirt. These are the same people that most likely handle KYC/AML info.

KYC should be an agreed standard across the industry, it could avoid disputes like this by being a universal and standardised system.    I think just anyone whose had an account online has had problems with KYC or fraud prevention, I definitely lost money from a bank blocking my card automatically just because I dont normally spend that much.   Of course I needed it to clear right that moment, it was automatically decided and declined so I missed an offer which cost me hundreds for no fault of my own.
    No communication was ever sent to me to explain or help me and it compounded further losses later on from the lack of information, so I consider that pretty awful tbh and thats a mainstream bank.  The point being this kind of 'lost in translation' upset to put it nicely occurs all over finance conventionally and now in crypto.  

Its really best if the requirements are done independently by 3rd party KYC processing and best agreed by many different parties and companies so that both consumers, companies and any regulators are in agreement its a suitable and fair process.    If every company has different policies then the sector becomes bumpy and uneven ground to traverse, discourages business and people ultimately assume the worst any time KYC is mentioned.

Which gets hacked and everyone's KYC becomes worthless or even hazardous because hackers can now impersonate whoever they want (think Equifax-scale hack).

That's not to say it can't be done in a safe manner... but it won't be done because there is more money in doing it in a shoddy manner and then selling all sorts of "identity protection" shit etc.

Also KYC information can easily be passed onto the authorities. If an exchange gets hacked the whole database can be cloned and forever accessible to the police and who-ever they share it with.

The exchange has no choice with it if they are either raided, have search warrants executed on them or their host, change ownership, have liquidators appointed or worse still - like Suchmoon suggested - get hacked and the private information is revealed.

Livecoin being an exchange which probably is a shell company run in Belize by anonymous Russians. The actual control of the exchange could be in any country.

Sending your passport details for KYC could be risky.

I dont see they would have to hold onto the KYC details that were verified, I really hope they would not be doing this in any case.  Maybe you are right, for the sake of proof vs some kind of tax audit they keep a copy of customers exact passport details which makes me even more uncomfortable then I was previously.    

What I expect and seems reasonable is they verify the document once only to prove you are who you say you are, if its done real time theres no need to be keeping copies at any point.  Then they would just keep a note of your name and address perhaps, its proven well enough at this point and they can say they did their due diligence  etc.
   I can understand people are apprehensive about details being duplicated to be possibly used elsewhere, there is a monetary worth for that kind of information.   I'm sure Bitrex outsourced this requirement when I dealt with them, I much prefer I dont have to passing some test like this every time I deal with a new company.   Ideally it should be done once, in a token service kind of deal and then you are verified and this can be sent forward as proof without any further risk to documents being kept online somewhere or needed to be passed onto yet another company or set of individuals.

Last KYC I did recently just for comparison with a commodities depository company required my driving license and a bank statement.   The statement I dont care about really, the license could be some trouble I guess.    So ideally I'd want all companies to using a proper system for KYC universally, it probably should have been done a long time ago.   BTW, they are taking forever to respond to me, its just a conventional based company but always KYC is a pain and Im left for months trying to get their nod Iam a valid person not a pirate or whatever despite having the same address for decades it shouldnt be that hard to check.
    All they have to really do is check the national electoral register which is public record, that imo is enough to verify and I can even send them the last postal voting document I had.  No big deal as its time limited but literally shows Im a citizen, unfortunately I have to be giving out copies of my license to people which is a liability I agree.

I don't think we should expect KYC implementation from an anonymous exchange with such an questionable TOS, whose operators are indeed unknown to the users. Its like giving personal info to an anonymous person online, and its a newbie mistake most would avoid. It does not look like do what you preach right ?

Did you even saw how did they attacked OPs, whatever personal info they got, the exchange also reviewed his Twitter account although it was nothing related to him loosing his funds on there exchange. Exchanging Personal info with such type of people's is surely unsafe and investigation action by LiveCoin proves the same.

Anyways KYC is a big SHIT ! ;D

Well you can't really have it both ways.. Either you want unregulated and no KYC (which works in some cases) or you want regulated where KYC is more or less mandatory. Unless you are preaching something else here that I am missing.

I think I sound very clear in my comment, I am preaching non implementation of KYC here, most of the people are in crypto world due to its anonymity and decentralized phenomenon and I think KYC just brakes all of this important factors and turns it back to a centralized value.

You should just take an example of the recent Libra Shit, none of the OG crypto community support's it, I think it includes you right ?

Here is another one.  :(
http://bitcoin-evolution.com/livecoin-exchange-scam-and-thieves/

TBH I found multiple complains about all crypto exchanges. This is enough, to use Google and search for query: "name of exchange + scam".
I have taken from Coinmarketcap 10 first exchanges, biggest by the volume and checked like this. All these exchanges are accused, by random users across all available channels for multiple cases of abuse and obvious scam tactics. From failed KYC, blocked accounts by AML, to lost deposits, and withdrawals, lost alt coins in a mysterious way, etc. I think, I found all types of accusations possible.

The main reasons for the flag are this shady TOS and blocked account, but Hhampuz proved already, that all exchanges have such Terms of Service. Better or worse, they are hidden between complex industry specificities, to mislead users or put there in the hope, that they will not understand it completely or never read it in the first place. This Livecoin TOS are there from the very beginning and to bring this now, to the light is like a falstart in sport. A very long one, because took a few years to find it, which proves that indeed nobody reads, these rules before registering.

I don't see any other scammed members in this thread, which is very rare and weird, taking into consideration, how many people are scammed because of exchanges.
I see, that there are other threads and somebody is talking somewhere, that he was scammed too (quoted above), but never showed up here and we can assume, that this thread caught attention from the entire forum and all interested members have already seen it, taking into consideration the thread title. Is enough, to look at the stats of this thread.

Despite, how shady and not moral this TOS are, they are there from the beginning and one has, to agree with them when signing up.
To accuse now the exchange, that they use it against OP is not appropriate, because OP was warned, multiple times and proven, to be lying about the exchange and even admit it publicly.
Going back, to the Mona case, there are still not enough pieces of evidence and many questions should be answered before we come, to final conclusions.
Additionally, OP is not the most honest person and I have a problem, to believe in all his statements.

I can't shake the filling, that the main purpose of this all, was to stop the Livecoin signature campaign (QS), and show Hhampuz in a bad light.

After the announcement, that campaign will be finished, I don't see anybody asking the OP, if something has changed in his case, or maybe there is something, that could be done for him?
Even Op is not active and every normal OP in his thread is active constantly. I know because, I always was, especially in such important once. Here comes to me another thought, that maybe these Mona coins are not so important and this is not the only reason?

As for now, the only outcome of this case is, that the Livecoin exchange, got a flag for a block of one account, to which they use their TOS (despite moral or not), to close.
OP still didn't get the money and now, when the situation is even worse, I doubt, that Livecoin will help, after all that has been done and said. They have nothing to lose now, so why, to make the OP happy? Would you do this after such a battle? Of course, you do, but only if there will be something to lose, which was advertising in this particular case. One can think about this, as a simple signature campaign, but this was the reason for 10%, of the traffic on the Livecoin exchange. This is really a monster card, to play with (like AA), but they were burned all pre-flop. To scare away money from Bitcointalk is a very strange tactic for me, taking into consideration, that 99% of people are here, only because of the money.

Now, we have additional 20+ members, which are victims of this case, because of the lost spots in a great campaign, with one of the highest payouts. There was a big chance, that it will be ongoing for a very long time. Don't mention all the future members, which could get a spot, after some time and earn a few additional bucks, when posting on the forum. We all know, how everything is changing constantly in the signature campaigns.

Not so long ago, painted red one of the Polish exchanges, because there was, also a scam accusation thread, here on Bitcointalk against them. I was the only member of the polish community, active in this discussion. After OP posted evidence and additional accounts popped up, with more accusations, I filled obligated, to give the red trust. After some time, turned out, that the OP wasn't telling, the full truth and the other accounts, disappeared and never answered further, to me or exchange questions. I had to apologize and take my negative trust back after some time. The exchange was accused of holding deposits after OP passed full KYC. After deposit of a significant amount of cryptocurrencies, account was immediately frozen, despite KYC and exchange didn't want to send coins back, to the owner address. Looks obvious, but wasn't.

I think the approach, to flags, should be different. The flag should be granted at the end of the case, not at the very beginning.
First, we should try, to inform all involved parties and let them explain everything, between each other. We should keep close attention and help in the mediations, taking into consideration the interests of both sides. Like Hhampuz did, kudos for this. Flags were created, to stop the possibility, to destroy an account, with a single red trust, but from what I see, this is still possible.

When the flag is granted from the very beginning, the altitude of accused could be bad and I understand it. He could be not willing, to cooperate because already found guilty, so why, what for?
I am sure in a calm and polite way, we would be able to achieve something and not only, to create complete disaster and many collateral victims.

Below is the quote from one of the most distinguished authors on the subject of power struggle, Robert Greene (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Greene_(American_author)) (no plagiarism intended):


To me, it was as clear as day that the whole shebang was against the Livecoin signature campaign in general and its manager, Hhampuz, in particular. The motives of the majority supporting the flag were pretty straightforward and those were to shut down the campaign prematurely. But you are essentially shooting yourselves in the foot, guys, as BTT will not be taken seriously and advertisers will just stay away from it (read, no more milk for us)

So if you think you won, think again

They've been around since 2014 -- 5 years is a long time to build up an epic exit scam by crypto standards.


Its true, this is what happened -- they have permanently disabled 2 wallets, and that's not good. However, its not because they felt like selectively scamming MONA and XMR holders. They were the victims of thieves who took advantage of weaknesses in the coins' respective code to steal coins from Livecoin. It is Livecoin's philosophy that this is the fault of the coin developers and not their own. You don't have to agree with it, and there's no doubt they should have tighter security measures in place, but they are not just going around scamming people at random.


Yeah because nobody in the history of the forum has ever created a second account  ::)


People just shut down their critical thinking skills when they are out for blood I guess.

Wrong,they were the victims of their own weak security and lack of seriousness in protecting their clients' funds, every POW coin is subject to being attacked, there is a little to nothing that can be done about it on a code level , some methods like the "delay function" proposed by zen may make the attack a bit harder and that's all about it, the biggest part of responsibility is on the exchange itself.

There are many reasons why an exchange like Binance dominated the market in 1 years while Livecoin has never been top 10 or even top 30 despite being in business for years ,Security is one of the most important reasons.

if you go back in history and compare how every other exchange handled the 51% attack on MONA or any other 51% attack, you can easily see that Livecoin can easily be put on the top of the "suck-balls" list, Livecoin don't know how to run an exchange  -  simple !

tl;dr IMO Livecoin is not scam per se, but when investors lose their funds due to terrible security measures, it does not matter how you label them - they are as good as scammers, one does not have to directly steal your money, locking you out of your funds for saying stuff about them on Twitter or being too bad in protecting your funds are some great ways an exchange can follow to be considered a scam.

 

I feel like you just jumped in without reading much of the backstory on Monacoin's implementation of Lyra2REv2 because you just parroted what has been said ad nauseum already. Its like, no shit, they should have been on the lookout for irregularities in the blockchains of the coins they are trading. There's lots of things that can be done -- for starters, the Monacoin devs could fix their faulty calculation of difficulty retargetting, yet they never did. From Reddit (https://www.reddit.com/r/monacoin/comments/8k7640/51_attack_on_monacoin/):


Monero DID make changes to their wallet software after a theoretical exploit was confirmed to exist and reported to developers by Livecoin. So what are you talking about "nothing to be done"...? Your statement is 100% inaccurate.


It really does matter how you label them. That's what labels are for. Despite the fact that OP is a prick and had months to withdrawal his coins (except for MONA, as nobody can), I still agree that's not a good excuse to lock him out of his account. I've said this from the very beginning. Don't know why you're again just repeating what has been said since the start.

Yaa, even I can't understand why are they willing to risk a long time reputation under such an questionable TOS. Why can't they just act right here, unblock the OPs account and return his funds ? I too think there repo is more worth than what OP lost.


I have never used livecoin exchange, even I have no connection with the OP. I am just thinking as an future costumer of the exchange, if I get into a situation and post a compliant about it on an online forum, they would directly block my account with funds. This is more of an damage to the exchange.


Don't you sound more out for blood here ?

But I can explain that to you

In fact, it is hard to understand why you can't understand it. The simple answer is that they don't particularly care about BTT and neither do most other exchanges out there. But we can still see the Bitfinex thread with Bitfinex representative never showing up again. The inference should be pretty evident and straightforward. They don't give a fuck about the forum any more but they definitely did at the beginning

Apart from that, I'm strongly inclined to believe that it was mostly through Hhampuz's effort that Livecoin agreed to run a signature campaign here (given how eagerly he tried to fix matters with this foul accusation). So the real question that we should ask ourselves is how come that they discard the forum as irrelevant as far as their reputation is concerned. I think that should be a reality check for us all as to how important BTT is these days

Because they know that crypto has gone past this forum and they get a good amount of noobs from all over the internet who are easy targets. You'd never come across an established member for this forum falling victim of such exchange scams. It's mostly the newbies who are new into crypto and unaware how things work around here. Having said that, every newbie that has been scammed consider this forum as their primary source to start a scam accusation which makes this forum relevant to the general audience.

All of the above is irrelevant as every POW coin is subject to 51% attack, a good exchange must handle these issues on their own,  if all attempts fail the exchange is the only party responsible , they have to pay the price for listing that coin and making profit of it, name me any other exchange that listed Monaconin and now still disables withdrawals and list the coin for about 17% of it's price, name a single exchange that does the shit and blame the def team for it ( don't waste your time searching, there is NON)





Lol, how is my statement inaccurate? you do understand that "theoretical" means before something happens, after the attack, the attacker probably sold Monacoin for BTC and on a plane to some Island, what would Monacoin team do exactly ?  ::)




you keep trying to come up with excuses on behalf of Livecoin, the Monacoins in his account are his own, he must be able to withdrawal them anytime he wants, you can't hold the OP's coins and say he go solve your problem with the dev team, or sell it here for 17% of it's value, that is stupid.  


Yet you still oppose a flag that indicates it's dangerous to deal with Livecoin.

let me ask you a simple a question , feel free to ignore it : Do you really think it is SAFE to trade on Livecoin?

I agree Bitcointalk could be taken lightly and we should think about the importance of Bitcointalk this days, many fake project are just lurking here finding innocent newbie victims. But I don't think this is the case with livecoin, as they were running as I read, a highly paying signature campaign, and it seems they had some of the importance given to Bitcointalk promotion through it. They even had a higher level account here which is not worth loosing really. So, I would not think they don't give a fuck about the forum.



You are just a critical thinking person, pointing fingers, calling alts, protecting a shady exchange... Who is out for blood here ?

I think you should better get lost from here, you sound more ODD!

And what else can I say here, I have already spoken here quite a lot. There are no attempts to solve a problem on the exchange and they do not respond to my letters. Here they go on saying that I slandered them, so I broke their rules.
But I read their rules from beginning to end, but did not find a clause prohibiting lying!
Why then should I delete my messages to get my money back if I didn’t break anything?!
Moreover, I did not lie

It looks like they don't care as they obviously preferred to have a red tag rather than to give in. And if you ask me, it tells more about BTT (and its real importance in such matters) than Livecoin (as they go on as before)


So how come Bitfinex is avoiding BTT but they are still (https://www.reddit.com/r/bitfinex/) active on Reddit?

So you confirm that you have known the TOS from the very beginning and read them fully before registering. This is a very interesting statement.


You were proven to be lying and admitted this personally in this thread. I know because I have read it and now I'm not able to find it, another coincidence?

Lol
Me? You really?!  Show me where

Relax, it is not worth it   ;D


In an attempt to help you understand, but you don't seem to want to, at this point i have to finally agree with you " no point telling you anything anymore ".




It is pretty clear that i meant there was nothing to be done "after" the attack was finished. I still stand by it, if you disagree to simple technical facts , then that is your problem.


Thanks for answering.

I am off this topic.

So your argument is others aren't complaining because sock puppets exist? Good point Nutilduhhh.


So does anyone have any refutation for this argument here or are you all just going to pretend this is about a shitty, unenforceable, possibly illegal TOS?

Yeah and its pretty clear you are continuing to ignore the fact that things could be and were done. "Simple technical facts"... Monacoin COULD attempt to solve its difficulty retargeting bug and Monero DID patch the exploit in their wallet. If you disagree with simple technical facts, well I'm sure you already know the rest.

Everything to be said here has already been said at least 3 times. I'm also wrapping up my involvement with this thread.

Edit: I found the Github entry where Monacoin did indeed patch their difficulty retargeting bug, it was in their last update (https://github.com/monacoinproject/monacoin/blob/master-0.16/src/pow.cpp):


So the idea that "nothing could be done" is utter rubbish.

Seeing as everyone is no longer getting paid to promote this scam in their profiles & have (mostly) stopped trying to defend their actions, I thought I'd do it for free.

no dude, for example i want only to understand the fact.. but i'm tired
for do this i getting
- insulted
- red trust (removed) by creator of topic
- flag

in my humble opinion, if you are stupid and leave fund in exchange is your problem, not mine
after being insulted i decided not to participate in the thread anymore... this is my choice

you can talk about it as much as you want, but know that now you're just spamming


anyway, welcome in my ignore list

There are so many facts here that you can understand.

Quadriga was founded in 2013
Bitsane has been around since 2016

"Annonymous" ICO's and ICO's with a fake team disappear all the time.

What makes you think that an exchange with a fake CEO and is owned by a company that claims it never traded is a safe bet ?

Are two different people running the nutildah account?

IANAL, but he didn't say he wouldn't call you an asshole for that so technically it seems he didn't break a written contract with you  :)

They'd find out who's the person behind the account and ban him anyway from their exchange for daring to write about their negative experiences.


It tells more about their professionalism (or lack thereof) than about bitcointalk itself. Their replies say all.


Why then has Hhampuz withdrawn his opposition to the flag?

What decisions are you talking about? To all my questions about Mona, they answered that I should solve this myself with the developer. They did not want to solve anything! And they blocked me after public criticism of their work, after which they referred to the violation of the rules prohibiting falsehood. But they have no rules that really forbid lying, so stop talking nonsense!

Weak point as BTT is notorious for its petty infighting, scheming and warring built around the trust system (or rather its abuse). This very thread is quite an example of just that


I don't know as this is not my post. I guess you should ask him


He was kidding and it was meant as a joke really, though there is still a small chance that he was not. But personally, I don't think he is much older than 18 anyway

I was not informed about the violation of this clause, which is confirmed by the correspondence. I myself deleted this correspondence and informed the Livecoin administration, but this was not enough for them, and they began to demand to delete everything I wrote, although everything else does not violate their rules!



You present the same stupid facts that present to livecoin. Only an idiot cannot understand that this was said for the sake of trolling. To do this, read all the correspondence from where you got this quote. There scam defender, like you, called me a schoolboy

Or who understands and hopes to mislead everyone. Thereby making them idiots

Funny that I posted this on same day, only a couple of hours before your post.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5159642.msg51638846#msg51638846

Livecoin instantly blamed Monacoin on their ANN thread for what happened. Seriously they don't have communication with their clients and they have to ask in a forum? Obviously they have but wanted to shift the blame on the developer side.

On another subject, there were quite a few Bitcointalk older members that were promoting this exchange with their signature. Some of them are always accusing people of not doing due diligence before they promote a scam project. I've seen them giving negative trust to people that promote them. Yet quite a few of them promoted Livecoin.

DID YOU DO YOUR DUE DILIGENCE? Did you not know what livecoin is? So hypocritical.

So it was not a coincidence, we got it

No, I didn't mean anything against the op. His post was a personal experience and I read all of it. I had forgotten about Monacoin and Livecoin incident. Otherwise I would have added that too in my post.
I didn't mean it this way. I'm sure the op was aware of the livecoin campaign as well and was mad with them. I'm sure he didn't even notice my post which was just a small argument on their practices and the coins they keep trading.

I'm not a donkey who needs a carrot in front of nose! For now, they need to return my btc and the other coins they are holding hostage to make me delete everything I have said aгbout Mona situation. Next, if they actually don't have Mona coins, they have to clearly explain the situation but not sending me to seek answers from the developer. They should be communicating respectfully, like a professional stock exchange. Let your colleagues from Livecoin know that they need to keep an open dialogue with me.
I bet it will be interesting for you to read what other people say about them in the Russian branch of the forum.


Translate

- I clearly explained in Russian (and why?) that Mona has been stolen by the hacker.
- Don't you get it?

Yeah, "eaten by mice...” (c)

Lady, if a hacker steals 1.0 xmr from you, you may seek for help from the law enforcement or not, it’s your personal choice...

In this case, the client's funds were snitched... There is only one way the exchange does not have to turn to the law enforcement agencies, if they are ready to compensate for personal losses
I'll speak honestly, this exchange only reported to the forkway and the League of sexual reforms but not to the police. Two simple reasons are behind this - - their fear of conduct
standard procedures and audit. The second reason is, of course, the "specifics” of the exchange business in terms of licensing and registration.

NO ONE (except the owners) has any idea of what kind of hole this is, where it came from and how it changes with time.
Most likely this hole appeared on a peak of financial turnovers, when there were plenty of funds. Why would not they take a small part of these funds for the exchange development, costumer attraction, erasing blockchain and resting from all the hard work they have done?
After a while, the market started to fall, the exchange’s financial turnovers went down and their customers started leaving to Binance for example, etc. So, a relatively small hole in balance turns out to be huge in relation to new realities. Everything is so predictable. What will save from the audit? That's right, a fire. Therefore the exchange suffered from hacker attacks several times. There were no appeals to the law enforcement agencies. Legally, there is not or was not any theft. Blocking/suspending of clients' funds is a 100% scam.
The users of this exchange should start thinking about it... We can see that this is the second time when clients suffer from such episodes. Those, who organize attacks on the blockchains are always tied to the main point - the funds withdrawal. As we can see, both times the funds are leaked through this unregulated and unregistered exchange. Need any more comments?
ll tell you more, none of non-regulated exchanges have 100% reserved, because the likelihood of 100% withdrawal of the clients assets is minimal.
Now, if we will see an appearance of a representative with a shady registration (a homeless person, for example), we must be very careful and make sure to check what kind of business they claim and where they were registered.
Only scam exchanges continue to use their clients’ money, after lying to them, and dare to ask the clients to rub their noses in the bullshit (illegal) user agreement.

They're clearly well past the point of wanting to keep an open dialogue with you. A week ago I recommended to them via PM that they unlock your account and let you withdrawal your bitcoin, they refused. It seems they think you will not be happy with any solution they had offered you previously.


I've read a lot of it. The Russian community seems pretty evenly split on the issue, if not more leaning to the side of Livecoin.

What solution did they offer me earlier?

You flooded their customer support with messages before getting locked out of your account. Surely they must have given you some options during that time. You never mentioned what they said in this period, but I would imagine your best option was exchanging the MONA for BTC, and then withdrawing your BTC.

If they reinstated your account, you would still be unhappy about not being able to withdraw the MONA, correct? It seems like they tried their best to explain the situation to you and that wasn't good enough.

The best chances you have of getting your money back now is taking them to court.

I have repeated this many times already, that they did not propose any solutions, all they suggested was to go and solve the problem with the developer on their own. And the rest of the correspondence, I have already shown.

Who should I sue? The site has no official representatives and a registered company.

They just stole my money and are not going to return anything

Official representative: Ivona Zlatova, CEO
I can find past registrations for Red Velvet Investments in the Bahamas and Belize

I also found this review  (https://eto-razvod.ru/review/livecoin/)but I don't how accurate the information is:


Some things you just can't find on the internet. If I were you and I was really serious about this, I would hire a lawyer or some sort of legal aid to help you research the matter. Perhaps you could get a free consultation at a law firm.

I'm glad that you're glad but I think that you was promoting yourself as "look at me I am honest". In Russian local board nobody needs you because you are no use there.


I am also baffing when some person set a bad flag being baffled and not understood what happened.

Livecoin announced that MONA will be delisted in two weeks.

https://www.livecoin.net/en/news/view/261

Given that withdrawals are not possible - anyone with a MONA balance on Livecoin gets fucked, including those who owned "real" pre-attack coins.

     This solution is not acceptable at all.  The Mona holders would be better off if Livecoin socialized the losses among current Mona holders, get on the new chain, and let the Mona holders withdraw the coin. Retaining the Mona coins and having the individual holders attempt to get them from the developers is ludicrous. Also, it is despicable that they will continue to allow trading on this dead asset.

Livecoin can try to speak with Monacoin and try to solve this instead of not letting users withdraw and delist

I'm not sure I understand what you mean by this. As far as I'm able to grasp the concept, it is about spreading losses among everyone, even those not affected by the situation (like Bitfinex altcoin holders). In other words, socializing the losses only among the current holders of the Mona coin (which is to be delisted) is not much different from just delisting it (what the exchange is going to do anyway)

What am I missing?

Delisting means bagholders get nothing (they can't withdraw) and Livecoin gets to keep whatever actual MONA it still has. Livecoin should at least distribute existing real on-chain MONA covering at least a fraction of users' balances. Unless you're saying that Livecoin has 0 MONA coins, which is certainly possible and would make the whole scam even more egregious.

Well, that's not me, actually

Losses are losses and if they are to be socialized, everyone thus "socialized" will get financially punished. What you suggest is more about paying back but if they didn't do that before why they are going to do that now? Anyway, if the Mona withdrawals as well as deposits have been disabled, it is quite possible they don't have the coins unless they bought them elsewhere. In this manner, delisting the coin is a form of loss socialization in its own right

Where did the coins disappear then? The 51% attack pretty much by definition couldn't "destroy" existing main chain coins that Livecoin supposedly had in their wallets. So if the balance is now 0 then either Livecoin had lost them before the attack, or they sold them off after the attack while customers were unable to withdraw.

I really don't understand the rest of your argument. Sounds like an attempt to justify the scam with word games.

These scammers have deprived me of the opportunity to sell this mona. They also continue to illegally withhold my BTC. And all this happens only because I publicly spoke about the problem with MONA!

LiveCoin started a new signature campaign https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5166711.0

recruting new scammers

Surely it doesn't look good. After hhampuz decided to end the campaign instead of solving the issue between the OP and the exchange they started a new campaign.

They don't understand how things work here at all.

It is really sad despite all the warnings and all the chances they had to solve the issue, they went this way and ignoring what people say.

>>>Yobit v2.0 loading

I believe they will choose most of spammers. Since here is open scam accusation, I think any reputed user will apply there. Perhaps their signature will end up like Yobit. They should resolve that accusation and hire a well reputed managers. However, I am little bit late on this thread, so I will take a look all of reply here before make any judgment.

A month passed after they blocked my account for publicly criticizing their work. They continue to blackmail me so that I delete everything that I have said here, otherwise they will not return anything to me! The only thing they did was Mona coins delisting, which I now cannot sell even for the pennies they offer in return, because my account is blocked.
 :(

Would you mind sharing that blackmails to us so we can see, that the LIVECOIN shouldn't be here and atleast be banned. With those mails that you were saying, many will be saved and on the later part, this site will fall. If they continue their habbit on making such behaviour then who knows what can they do to others, and as for the OP, there might be no chances on retrieving your finances, so I think you should consider this now, as for the fact LIVECOIN doesn't want to answer the allegations.

Why did you withdraw your flag?

WOW! What is that?! I don't know how it happened, maybe some kind of mistake! Thanks!

The reward is very huge and very tempting and you can really earn a lot if you completed that 50 posts, they did not specify the number of people they are going to accept, so there is a possibility that they can accept as many people that they want and would like to apply.

It is not worth getting all the hate from the well established members. (you may even get tagged for this)

Yobit had great rewards too, look what happened to them. Many yobit signature carriers got a sig ban for months.

It is very clear, respected members of the forum aren't applying for this campaign any more.

Sometimes your reputation is more important than getting a few satoshis.

I really wish Livecoin had sorted this out, as I sent my applications to their campaign several times before.

match point dude :)
i think always reputation > money

That "sometimes" was just a figure of speech. Of course it is always more important than a few satoshis.  :D

I see a dozen chaps applying for the campaign with a few who are ofcourse just trying to be sarcastic.
Don't you think DT members should tag the other culprits for joining the campaign very well knowing that Livecoin were proven scammers?

Warnings are all there but they just decided to ignore and join the campaign  :-[

It seems that their attitude towards the client will become a guideline for other exchanges - what is forbidden to do when working with a client

---

This is interesting.
Livecoin suffered a loss a few months ago when someone exploited a monero vulnerability
https://latesthackingnews.com/2018/08/05/monero-wallet-vulnerability-loss-of-1-8-million-to-livecoin-crypto-exchange/

And then a member of monero community post this
https://www.reddit.com/r/Monero/comments/bv0427/livecoinnet_may_have_actually_tried_to_breach_the/

So maybe Livecoin tried to negociate something with MONA but they did not give the coins to them, something similar happen with Bitcoin Gold and some exchange like a year ago

This is just a bribe @izooomrud, just don't accept it.

Everyone here is supporting you not just because of your case but as a future costumer of the same exchange and so that anyone else should not get tied into a same problem while dealing with Livecoin exchange in the future.

I don't think much of the members from the Livecoin campaign would be willing to pay your loss from there pocket, I even don't think they should anyways.



Doing this would just be unfair and out of ethics for your part, still my guess is you would not accept it. It's just a assumption after all and participants of the campaign are not the once who should pay your losses, it would not happen every time either.

Hello everyone, today I have good news for you and before I share my thoughts with you, I’d like to share some good news! I received a message from the livecoin technical support service today with a statement that I can withdraw my funds within 48 hours, after which my account will be permanently blocked!
I withdrew all the funds that I were available, however there is an issue with Mona coins. Currently, 720 Mona coins remain on my account balance. Several solutions of this issue were offered by me to the exchange, right now I am waiting for an answer.

I am glad that the livecoin staff chosen a civilized solution of the issue, and I would like to thank them for that. However, I realize that without all of you who supported me, people who were on a side of common sense and solid evidence, this would not have happened, and therefore it is solely your merit! Thanks a lot! Only because of people like you, the exchanges will try to work honestly and in the whole world of cryptocurrency there will be fewer scammers! I am so proud of you and how you defend not only your rights, but also the rights of other people, this is amazing!

Moreover, I sincerely would like to thank people who were concerned about this problem and offered to compensate my financial losses from their own funds. I think this should not be done and I cannot take your money, because it does not solve the main problem which must be solved by its initiator, namely the exchange. The exchange should understand that in the future if they will treat someone else as they treated me, they will have the same problem and it should make them think about it 100 times before repeating this mistake again. We are all gathered here to make sure the exchange is solving any issues users have by using civilized methods, and not to ensure that users solve the problems of this exchange. We all remember how after having lost my money during the attack 51% on the MONA network, the exchange sent me to solve their problem (which they allowed to happen) to the developer! Of course, it would be very convenient for them if their problems were solved by the users themselves, but then why do we even need such an exchange? Do they exist just to receive money and do nothing else? I think we should help this exchange to make some improvements by pointing out to their mistakes and help them to become a good exchange, if they are ready to listen.

Right now, I would like to share some of my thoughts with you.
I never read this forum much prior to having this issue with livecoin and this issue has changed everything radically. It was not easy for me to decide how to react correctly.
One of my options was to satisfy the illegal demand of the exchange and delete my reviews about their work in hopes that they will return my funds, which they have taken away to pressure me. However, I understood that they would only allow to take my BTC back (which they were holding to put pressure on me) but MONA coins would never be returned to me. I was thinking, what if I am not the first person who follows the exchange demands and deletes his reviews under the threat of losing his money? After all, the stock exchange cannot behave so brazenly out of nothing, this means that this strategy worked for them previously.
I wanted to defend my truth, but at the same time I was afraid of losing my money. My communication was suppressed by a large amount of negativity and unwarranted insults, along with baseless accusations that I received in my address from people supporting this exchange. Guys, only your support helped me a lot at that moment and thank you again for it! Because of your support, we got to the present moment of the development of the situation.

This situation has shown not only problems with the exchange, it has clearly demonstrated what people are ready to do just for money. Some of them were simply insulting me, others blamed that I specifically stated the problem in the English branch of the forum to get support. It seemed to me they were really upset about it, because they could have put more pressure on me in the Russian branch of the forum instead. Now I would like to point out those people who tried to prevent conflict resolution and aggravate it.



this alpha male guy has repeatedly stated that most English-speaking users are youngsters who envy the guys from Eastern Europe because they have the most beautiful girls in the world, that is why they are supporting me. At this time, he continues to carry utter nonsense about my involvement in the attack, backing up his accusations with the fact that I am not interested in returning my funds, and my only interest is to get an opportunity to deposit/withdrawal of Mona coins through the exchange.



always follows a livecoin representatives and supports all their statements, no matter how silly they are. At the very beginning, when I just voiced my concern, he called me a fraudster. How a person who demands the return of his money can be called a fraudster is still not clear to me. He is constantly trying to set up other users against me.

I don’t know why the hell they are doing this. If they are doing this for money, then it’s very stupid, because by helping fraudsters for 3 cents they are causing harm not only to me personally, but they harm the whole crypto community.

When I was looking at their posts I thought, damn it, I hope people would not fall into their trap and not believe in that nonsense. At some point I was even afraid of this, but I caught myself thinking: “how can anyone believe in that nonsense?!”. Then I saw people who supported me and once again made sure that the truth is easily distinguished from lies.

I gave them enough time to demonstrate their ability to carry this unthinkable nonsense, but I think this is the right time to reply to them.

I NEVER asked to open deposit/withdrawal opportunity, I only asked to RETURN my funds and nothing else. I was afraid that they would only give me back my BTC (which were being held to put pressure on me) and my MONA coins would not be returned or returned of their current market value to BTC. But no matter how much you call Mona a “shit coin”, it ranks TOP 70 Coinmarketcap with a capitalization of more than $ 100 million! Therefore, I want the exchange to return my Mona coins, so I could continue to hold them until they reach the price level at which I bought those coins, and I am sure they will reach that price again.
If you really want to know, I certainly would agree if they give me back the BTC that I spent on buying Mona! If I initially stated that I want compensation in BTC, then I would have heard 10 times more insults in my address than I had already heard. They would certainly begin to speak in their accusations; “Hey, look, it's just a loser-trader who has lost profit and is now trying to recover what he has lost!” Therefore, I consider it fair if they just return my Mona coins and I will continue to hold them. It does not matter how they will return them to me, by opening a deposit/withdrawal option or from any other wallet. I repeat once again that I would agree to compensation in BTC, or any other cryptocurrency in the amount corresponding to the value of 0.30 BTC at this moment.

Once more, I would like to thank all the forum users (of the Russian - speaking and English - speaking branches) that support me. I am so grateful for your support, it is very important to me to know that there are people who are willing to provide support when someone needs it.

You never could withdrawal your MONA -- not for one day. You bought MONA on the exchange after the 51% attack, and after withdrawals had been disabled. What happened was, you bought MONA, forgot about it for a year, and then was dismayed to find out withdrawals were still closed. You bitched incessantly at Livecoin about not being able to withdrawal your coins. They explained the situation to you. You then took to the internet to bitch about it, and they suspended your account.

Now that they have re-opened your account, you did exactly what I thought you were going to do: continue bitching about not being able to withdrawal the MONA. You should have kept better track of what was going on on the exchange during the entire year you had coins on it.

Livecoin is obviously buying up outstanding MONA at 0.00003 BTC (https://www.livecoin.net/en/trading/MONA_BTC) before the delisting - they have created a buywall of 10,000 coins at this price to give MONA holders a chance to sell before its too late. If I were you I would sell your holdings for this price, withdrawal your BTC, and be happy that you got anything at all.

Shit happens. Sure, part of the blame is Livecoin's, but part of it is yours for not paying attention to what was happening with your own investment. Their reputation here has already been severely damaged. My bet is they are not going to buy MONA specifically for you to withdrawal, so if I were you I would take what I can get and get out now.

As I suggested and predicted.

That's the most sensible way to proceed. You can't withdraw (all) your MONA because they don't exist and I don't think it was livecoin's fault.

Edit: just read nutildah's post. Looks like they are going to make you whole.

He was told this right away. But he began to threaten the employees of the exchange and insult them. You guys supported the liar, scammer and blackmailer :(

The overwhelming part of the Russian forum did not support him.

Translation:

MONA price - $1.94

What was the total value of other coins that you were able to withdraw please?

Is that all that’s left to deal with now 720 MONA?
Please don't tell me this whole mess & drama involving half of the fucking forum has been over 720 x of this penny stock shit coin?

The number here does not matter. It is important how they relate to the user and that they allowed the conflict to grow to such a level because of this amount.

Livecoin's ToS was a PoS. I know that much.

He threatened livecoin with what? Creating a thread in BTT? How is that a threat unless you have something to be afraid of?

Locking his account was a mistake.

If I were Livecoin, I wouldn't lock hiS account, let him withdraw whatever funds he has there but I also wouldn't buy any mona coins from the market just to pay him since the missing shitcoins weren't livecoin's fault.

Totally agree mindrust, Livecoin should pay him the cost of the Mona tokens/coins in bitcoin & just be done with this sorry episode. I really thought this case must have been so much worse given all the publicity it got here.

At the moment, izooomrud account is fully unblocked. He can withdraw or sell his funds. Concerning the situation with MONA, we posted news with detailed explanations following this link - https://www.livecoin.net/en/news/view/261
We are unable to bear more responsibility for an asset, than its developer. It is stated in the User agreement, which a user either accepts at signing up, or doesn't use our Service at all. The fact, that izooomrud used our Service, suggests that he agreed to this clause, saying the following:


Besides alleged theft accusations, this user also made threats against us. His charges have no grounds at all and breach the User agreement rules, which the user accepted at registration, and that leads to the account shut-down.

I appreciate that you let the user withdraw their funds, this was the right thing to do just as delisting the MONA trading pair. You still have people here that don't think of you as scammers, so just continue doing what you are now doing and try and improve, that's all I could ask for anyways.

Do use your had:

Translation:

And?

I don't see your goddamn point.

That doesn't mean he was lying. Livecoin's own words verified that OP wasn't lying. What are you talking about here?

You don't see it, because you don't use your had.

Obviously because OP said that even lying is not against ToS (which has been brought up by livecoin), everything OP says is a lie.  ::)

If i were you, i wouldn't bother to argue with those people defending livecoin.
Anyone who doesn't accept that their ToS is illegal and their legal status is somewhat unknown either doesn't want to accept it or simply is delusional.

You have a business. izooomrud requires money from you, and if you refuse, he promises to give you black PR and destroy your business. Is it a threat or what?

Are you stupid or simply doing signature spam?