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1261  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: Steem pyramid scheme revealed on: July 27, 2016, 05:30:34 AM

While she seems not quite your typical mom (IT professional, some exposure to Bitcoin), making her warm lead from the start, this seems key:

Quote
Then, I read an article this morning about steemit on finance.yahoo.com

She's finding out about steemit not directly from a personal connection to a blocknerd but from general buzz in the popular media (and then converting to a user). This may be an isolated incident, we don't know, but it is very interesting.
1262  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: [POLL] Does Minecache post Deceitful / Predatory Ethereum comments ? on: July 27, 2016, 02:18:57 AM
So i am talking about this guy.. Minecache

Who cares about transparent, clumsy, and ineffective amateur trolls? Worry about the expert professional ones that are harder to identify.
1263  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: DAO Attacker Owns 10% Of All ETC on: July 27, 2016, 02:16:59 AM
Double Standards much? I heard the Eth Foundation Members also hold a truck-load of ETH that could be dumped any time.
They're hardly going to dump on their own project, whereas we know exactly the immorality of the attacker.

Proven false.

http://themerkle.com/ethereum-developer-vitalik-buterin-sold-25-of-his-coins/

Only 75% left to go!

Quote
Honestly do some people never engage their brains around here?

Indeed.
1264  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: Steem pyramid scheme revealed on: July 27, 2016, 01:59:05 AM
I decided to offer a practical suggestion to all Steemit users on avoiding the potential copyright infringement problem:

https://steemit.com/steemit/@anonymint/easily-help-steemit-avoid-copyright-liability

Thanks to @chryspano for the upvote. That is a good sign for the possibility of Steemit (not saying it is enough to overcome the issues of the voting system as currently is, but it shows something about the community if he is representative).

Your posts are really quite good. I especially like this one as a 100% positive approach to reducing copyright risks rather than people going and attacking other people who aren't making the same judgements on the issue.
1265  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: ETC on Polo on: July 27, 2016, 12:21:09 AM
Ow, i miss ETC train, i see yesterday ETC price is 0.0008 - 0.0009 and now 0.004. Is now still good time to buy ETC or price will go down again and i must wait price lower to buy?
DAO attacker owns about 10% of all ETC. You do the maths what happens next once he dumps.

Your FUD mind tricks don't work on us.
1266  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: Steem pyramid scheme revealed on: July 26, 2016, 04:05:27 PM
Also, to smooth or anyone who may have a say in Steemit... please update how everything is organized and categorized. I actually kind of hate the layout right now. It's hard to find a specific community or like-minded people to discuss certain topics with. No matter where I navigate to I always end up at the trending posts, which are personal intros or blogs 90% of the time and have nothing to do with what I'm actually looking for. Which again leads me to question whether Steemit is meant to be a personal blog or something akin to Reddit... at the moment it seems like a personal blog, as these are the highest paid posts and these posts are giving incentive to others to post the same way.

Organization features like that are in development, starting I think with a feed of users that you follow (you can add users to your folllow list now, but it doesn't actually do anything).

Right now it is really just a firehose.
1267  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: Steem pyramid scheme revealed on: July 26, 2016, 03:43:33 PM
I seem to recall there being incentive to not down vote just for the hell of it to screw with people.

Downvotes effectively cost you money. Every vote (up or down) reduces your voting power which means when you downvote and then subsequently upvote something else, the positive effect of the upvote is weakened.

This mechanism is quite hidden so it may not have much effect on behavior.
1268  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Speculation (Altcoins) / Re: [XMR] Monero Speculation on: July 26, 2016, 09:18:09 AM
Relevant comment from the ANN thread:

Talking about commits, this one caught my eye: https://github.com/monero-project/bitmonero/commit/ebf97d76f0020eb027175818ebbdafd6d578aa77

Quote
wallet: new {ex,im}port_key_images commands and RPC calls

They are used to export a signed set of key images from a wallet
with a private spend key, so an auditor with the matching view key
may see which of those are spent, and which are not.

finally the view-key functionally is optimal.
1269  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: Steem pyramid scheme revealed on: July 26, 2016, 09:14:26 AM
What point were you trying to make in text I had quoted?

That users are not particularly interested in cashing out relatively small, retail if you will, amounts of SP. They may not be for many years or even decades (of course assuming the platform becomes very successful, otherwise it goes to zero and none of this matters).

Once you get into the long term, the 2 year window can be largely ignored. There is pressure to enter and pressure to exit, with price determined by the balance between them. There is no possible clarity about how that balance looks in distant future.
1270  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: Steem pyramid scheme revealed on: July 26, 2016, 09:10:26 AM

Even if it is linked externally, Steemit serving the links could be liable for using copyrighted content in their business. Although it is on the Steem blockchain, Steemit doesn't have to serve the content. They should implement a copyright compliance team. Steemit is a centralized entity and thus is liable.

That is unless the user is downloading a client and the user is deciding which content from the blockchain the user wishes to request and view.

So that's why this guy made $40,000 on this one single post.

https://steemit.com/piston/@xeroc/piston-web-first-open-source-steem-gui---searching-for-alpha-testers

Can the blockchain handle every user downloading the content in real-time from the witness nodes  Huh

Witness nodes don't serve data to users. They just sign blocks. They're run locked down without any user-facing services.

User data is provided by API servers, similar to Electrum nodes. Anyone can run one. Whether that becomes a paid service (or similarly one provided by app sellers to their users) remains to be seen.

Most of the content is pretty small anyway. As discussed a few comments back, it is just text and links. Embedded media is external. The bandwidth requirements for a full node will be high due to the size of the blockchain, but one such node will be able to serve many, many users with relatively little bandwidth per user.
1271  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: ETC on Polo on: July 26, 2016, 08:09:24 AM
That is very different from what is happening here.

Smooth, I unequivocally support Ethereum Classic.  Can I assume you do as well?

I support it over VitalikTualcoin yes. I own essentially none of either though. I was looking at buying some ETC as mid-term speculation when it establishes some sort of bottom. Maybe that has happened already and I missed it, but I'm not sure.
1272  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: Steem pyramid scheme revealed on: July 26, 2016, 08:07:53 AM
They just see all those illiquid STEEM POWER valued in $$$$$$ (which is possible only because almost no one is cashing out and instead are powering up, except the probably the whales).

No, they don't really pay attention to the dollar value of Steem Power or think about cashing it out. Only crypto nerds think that way.

It is impossible they don't notice it. Subconsciously it is in their eurphoria.

Their subconscious has been trained to know money makes people happy.

Maybe when the amounts get big (successful bloggers, stars, other pros, etc.). The successful bloggers do want to promote their posts though, so they seem to often value moderate amounts of SP for its utility at least at market value, so even then I'm not sure until the amounts get quite large.

But if someone builds up a $100-200 from modest rewards on comments and posts, then they're going to take the liquid Steem Dollars as their reward and not be interesting cashing out $1-2/week from their Steem Power for the next two years. That's just not how people think. The SP is not what they see as the cash reward, the SD is.

Hehe, you were sleepy also. Hope readers understand that is what happens when we work too many consecutive hours. I did several 24 hour work sessions over the past week. Was necessary because the several guys who wrote the Steem whitepaper didn't bother to explain all the metrics to us. So we had to go figure this out from scratch, what they had been thinking about for many months or year or more.

Tangent out (not addressed to smooth), I'll know I am getting healthy when I can do longer marathon sessions than the younger guys (not there yet). I'm awake 18 hours now and just finished an intense 2 hour gym workout about 2 hours earlier. I'm sleepy right now, but I also feel ... I better not say...

smooth, I think you are trying to argue here that there won't be a lot of SP stored up to dump later?

That question doesn't even make sense to me.

Some users will want to exit later. If it is successful others will want to enter. I don't know which will be the stronger force over which timescale. If it isn't successful it will go to zero.
1273  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: ETC on Polo on: July 26, 2016, 04:20:54 AM
Sorry I missed the gist of your argument. Any one can hard fork. VB can, you can, I can, tokeweed can, even Donald Trump can.

The overwhelming majority of miners adopted the ETH chain. The ETC chain will eventually languish as a historical artifact. I hope crypto evolves better governance and we develop better processes for the maintenance and enhancement of p2p consensus systems.

I assume that you are not against forks in general because Monero was a fork.

Hard forks in general are not the issue here. In fact a hard fork can be considered a special case of proof of burn. What makes this particular hard fork different is the selectiveness. All the Ethereum holders were not eligible to participate in the proof of burn / hard fork, since all the Ether was not treated equally. In fact the very purpose of this hard fork was to change the ownership of funds. Monero has had several hard forks; however this kind selective of hard for would be virtually impossible to pull of in Monero because of Monero's design.

Thanks for the clarification. It seems more reasonable to debate under what circumstances a fork is justifiable rather than debate whether forks are unconditionally bad, although the two arguments might be considered one by a person who believes that there are no circumstances under which a fork might be justified. And in a very real sense, this debate is resolved when miners make a choice at the fork in the road.

The issue here is that both chains live. That is the outcome of a controversial hard fork (and anything that involves redistribution will be controversial nearly 100% the time). It doesn't really matter if 49% or 20% or 5% of the miners and the rest of the community support the minority chain; as long as some meaningful number of people continue to support it, the community and the coin are effectively split.

In the typical case of an uncontroversial hard fork, such as the ones you mentioned Monero having done, the original chain is abandoned and dies quickly because everyone or very nearly everyone agrees that the new chain is preferable. Nothing prevents someone, even now, months or years later, from going back and mining a version of Monero pre-HF. But no one has any interest in doing so, and if they did mine it, no one would have any interest in trading the coins they mined. That is very different from what is happening here.

1274  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: Steem pyramid scheme revealed on: July 26, 2016, 04:03:20 AM
They just see all those illiquid STEEM POWER valued in $$$$$$ (which is possible only because almost no one is cashing out and instead are powering up, except the probably the whales).

No, they don't really pay attention to the dollar value of Steem Power or think about cashing it out. Only crypto nerds think that way.

It is impossible they don't notice it. Subconsciously it is in their eurphoria.

Their subconscious has been trained to know money makes people happy.

Maybe when the amounts get big (successful bloggers, stars, other pros, etc.). The successful bloggers do want to promote their posts though, so they seem to often value moderate amounts of SP for its utility at least at market value, so even then I'm not sure until the amounts get quite large.

But if someone builds up a $100-200 from modest rewards on comments and posts, then they're going to take the liquid Steem Dollars as their reward and not be interesting cashing out $1-2/week from their Steem Power for the next two years. That's just not how people think. The SP is not what they see as the cash reward, the SD is.
1275  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: Steem pyramid scheme revealed on: July 26, 2016, 02:37:26 AM
They think they are giving away money for free. Printing money out-of-thin-air but they don't think of it that way.

Yes

Quote
They just see all those illiquid STEEM POWER valued in $$$$$$ (which is possible only because almost no one is cashing out and instead are powering up, except the probably the whales).

No, they don't really pay attention to the dollar value of Steem Power or think about cashing it out. Only crypto nerds think that way.

Quote
And they think maybe some of that karma will come back to them. They think everyone on Steem is so happy something better than their actual lives or other Internet sites.

Welcome to social media. Every single social media platform in existence consists in large part of people making their lives look better than they actually are, or occasionally posting drama for the voyeuristic enjoyment of others.

1276  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: Steem pyramid scheme revealed on: July 26, 2016, 02:17:10 AM
As far as I can tell the moms on the site know next to nothing about any of the blockchain and incentive stuff you call groupthink. That is certainly true of the ones I know personally. They just think it is a cool idea and fun. Whether it holds attention longer term I don't know.

What is a cool idea? What specifically do they think is cool about blogging on Steemit that they couldn't do any where else before?

They like the idea of people voting giving rewards rather than just voting to vote. They don't really know or care about the algorithms. If they get $1 or even less on a comment they're pretty happy with it. They don't expect to make as much as the big winners on the front page are are not disappointed that they don't (but perhaps they do secretly hope to get there someday, and maybe that is indeed part of the draw).

I don't vote on their stuff in case you are wondering because my goal is not to give away free money to people I know. I'd rather see how their perceptions evolve without interference.

1277  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Speculation (Altcoins) / Re: [XMR] Monero Speculation on: July 26, 2016, 02:11:35 AM
where is risto? haven't seen him in this thread for ages now ...

Some sort of summer vacation I think. I remember seeing something about it on the Crypto Kingdom IRC, but I don't know any more than that.
1278  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: Steem pyramid scheme revealed on: July 26, 2016, 02:09:15 AM
That is why mom doesn't join.

I personally know >1 "moms" who have joined and are actively participating. I didn't push them to it, but I mentioned it and they decided on their own to sign up (my interest is more in seeing whether they are interested than trying to sell it). Many more are apparent on the site.

The voting circle jerk as you put it may put them off and cause them to lose interesting, but my bet would be on bad hosting and the limited feature set being bigger issues.

I've only seen 1 mom out of 32.000 that have joined. How many have you seen?

Way more than 1. I don't have time to search for links but maybe someone else wants to find some.

Quote
Of course you'll get the occasional mom who is close enough to the groupthink.

As far as I can tell the moms on the site know next to nothing about any of the blockchain and incentive stuff you call groupthink. That is certainly true of the ones I know personally. They just think it is a cool idea and fun. Whether it holds attention longer term I don't know.
1279  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: Steem pyramid scheme revealed on: July 26, 2016, 01:56:13 AM
That is why mom doesn't join.

I personally know >1 "moms" who have joined and are actively participating. I didn't push them to it, but I mentioned it and they decided on their own to sign up (my interest is more in seeing whether they are interested than trying to sell it). Many more are apparent on the site.

The voting circle jerk as you put it may put them off and cause them to lose interesting, but my bet would be on bad hosting and the limited feature set being bigger issues.
1280  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: Steem pyramid scheme revealed on: July 26, 2016, 01:49:56 AM
Let's see if I can earn any money telling the truth on Steemit:

https://steemit.com/steem/@anonymint/lies-about-steem-and-steemit

Please consider upvoting me if you appreciate my effort. Lots effort has gone into this detailed analysis.

I hope @smooth upvotes me so he can show he was not overly biased by his large stake and thus showing the authorities he was not participating in misleading any investors. I would hope other whales have the similar conscience and rationality.

Of course I don't expect it to be upvoted.

I appreciate your effort and I upvoted you. It doesn't mean I agree with you. I support meaningful debate and giving different points of view due consideration.

I would have done so earlier but my time on the forum is limited and by the time I come back these threads have moved far enough that I don't see the older posts.
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