And a third dot. If we're about to see a new bubble any time soon then those dots should soon start to pop exponentially higher and higher. If we go sideways this week and perhaps next week then we might not see a large scale rally just yet.  |
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In which EU countries?
I think you are mistaken in your opinion that this is EU wide (that's how I interpret your position)
I don't know about other EU countries but in Estonia this is the case. From the letter I personally understand that this service-receiver-location-dependent-taxing will be EU-wide law starting from 1st of January 2015. I deduce that from the fact that if the law was not to manifest EU-wide then the letter from the Ministry of Finance would not state EU so many times everywhere  Please provide sources for your claim as your Slovenian article certainly does not support your pan-EU allegation.
Not trying to be a pain in the arse, but if you are in fact correct, it does have big implications, so I get why you are bringing it up.
It has big implications in a sense that Bitstamp would have to check if a customer is from Estonia and then charge additional 20% VAT on the sold bitcoins. It would be reasonable to think that Estonia is not the only EU country that has sales tax / turnover tax / value added tax on everything you can buy. However, at this point I am not aware of any other country that has similar laws. I hope I made myself clear. The VAT discussions can get confusing because it is also used to tax things when you buy them online from another country to protect the local market. However, in Estonia VAT is also taken on absolutely every item you can buy from a store (bread, clothes and what not). edit: I do suspect that Estonia might also consider Bitcoin VAT-exempt because Finland did it and Estonia is closely related to Finland. IF all countries considered Bitcoin VAT-exempt then there would be no problem for anyone. The law about service receiver's location is a bit worrisome though because bitcoin exchanges would then have to differentiate customers by their country and apply different tax laws to them based on their location. |
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As far as I am aware there is no VAT charged between EU countries when sending physical goods. Heck you don't even need a customs form.
When sending package from one country to another in the EU then this may be so. However, VAT also means the tax that is taken when you buy anything from a shop. For example, if you go to your local computer hardware shop and want to buy a computer then you have to pay +20% of the actual price if you are a consumer. According to the law, the same goes to bitcoin. This means that all bitcoin ATMs must take +20% of the actual price. |
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Use an Exchange which doesn't care probably. Of course it really depends on how widespread that VAT for Bitcoins thing really is. If it's EU wide (which I doubt since Germany has published that "Bitcoin is considered private money" letter) I'd be starting to be concerned.
But even then I think there would be "services" for "smuggling" Bitcoins over the Internet.
Of course I agree that a wide spread VAT on Cryptocurrencies would prevent Bitcoins usage as a money substitute.
The only logical step forward is that all cryptocurrencies would be declared VAT exempt or "foreign money". If we have Finland and Germany backing this option already then we have hope. The question is whether such a declaration will be presented by the 1st of January 2015 or later. If it will be later then there will be a legal trouble gap where Bitstamp and others could be shut down for not taking service receiver location dependent taxes. If cryptocurrencies get a status of a foreign currency then there will also be legal troubles as anyone who makes a bitcoin transaction would be labelled as money transmitter and thus KYC and AML laws start applying. Regarding OTC trades, localbitcoins would probably be left out from this tax law equation? However, if cryptocurrencies become defined as foreign currencies then are OTC trades even legal any more? Can a random guy on the street exchange euros and dollars for you in the alley? |
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Perhaps something like "Bitcoin could be subject to VAT for some of us soon.
I think that once an exchange charges VAT it can pretty much shut down as long as there are other ones which do not. I also don't see how this is relevant to Bitstamp, it's not in Estonia.
Yes I know if a good is "exported" to another country in the EU VAT for that country has to be charged, in theory. But do you really thing anybody will pay that as long as there is a way to circumvent it, especially considering how easy it is?
Ok changed the title a bit. Fact is that there are powerful entities that would love to shut down Bitcoin businesses. You think they don't use an opportunity when they see one? That's why Bitstamp has gone crazy with their customer verification policy lately, they are scared. Even if it does not make sense to pay VAT on bitcoins, evading taxes is a crime. How exactly would you buy bitcoins without paying VAT then? I'm honestly interested in that. You go to some neighbouring country or use a VPN? |
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Clickbait Tilte, would not click again.
And I doubt anybody will be paying VAT for trading Bitcoins anytime soon, at least not in practice.
So what title would you suggest? The law is the law. You will be amazed when Bitstamp gets scared by the law that will become reality in the beginning of the next year. If they don't comply they will be shut down. Thus, they will comply and start asking 20% tax on all bitcoin sales. |
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I made an information request to the Estonian Ministry of Finance regarding Bitcoin taxing. I brought up the issue that it is pointless to start any bitcoin selling business in Estonia since it treats virtual currencies as property and thus requires Value Added Tax. Estonian VAT is 20%. I stated that Estonians would simply buy their bitcoins from Bitstamp instead of using a local business because a local business would have to add 20% VAT to the price of the bitcoins sold. Here's a part of the reply I got from the Ministry of Finance:  The text says " Selling Bitcoins and NuBits on the Internet is handled as electronically provided service. Starting from the 1st of January 2015, all electronically provided services are taxed by the laws of the country where the service receiver is located. Thus, taxing a service in the European Union does not depend on the country where the business is registered but instead it depends on the fact where the service receiver is located. A service receiver from outside the union is taxed by a 0% rate." This means that Bitstamp and others must soon ask VAT accordingly to the location of their customer whenever you are buying bitcoins. Essentially, now could be the time to hoard as many bitcoins as possible without paying some crazy 20% over the market price. Alternatively, the whole EU could come to a conclusion that virtual currencies are to be VAT-exempt. If the latter happens, then I'd guess we have no problem. By the way, I asked specifically about NuBits because it is the first virtual currency ever that is not volatile and is always priced 1 NBT = 1 USD. To me, it makes no sense to tax the sale of nubits with VAT if essentially nubits are dollars. However, the financial ministry answered that the law makes no difference whether the asset's price is pegged to a certain monetary value or not, thus even nubits are currently taxed by VAT in Estonia. Things get more interesting when it comes to dividends paid on virtual currencies. For example, NuBit shareholders were paid 60000 peercoins yesterday as dividends for the first 2 months of success. I myself received 35$ worth of peercoins. I predict that taxing such gains will be another big problem for the lawmakers, since if I remember correctly --- dividends are generally not taxed at all.    (the reply is all in Estonian and most of it is rather irrelevant in the context of Bitcoin's price speculation) edit: changed the title a bit. |
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even without any trading ,as a store of wealth alone it will exceed 10k as more and more people get suspicious of their countries being bankrupt
nobody trades in gold bars ,its effectively only a store of value ,and a very cumbersome ,expensive ,hi risk one at that
an efficent system like btc is far superior ,a kilo bar of gold would be hard to trade internationally or send to your friend in japan etc
a btc would be more of less effortless ,thats only one of the reasons why btc will NOT fail in this new age .........
I just watched some gold price manipulation video and people are even getting ripped off by gold bullions filled with wolfram so you can't even trust gold! |
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I just donated 15$ worth of BTC to mozilla. they probably insta dumped the coins and that's why it's no longer happening! |
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If BitStamp was hacked and the hacker started to pump the price with Willy and Markus bots again just as it happened to MtGox then the price would skyrocket againg which in turn would be good for Bitcoin, right?
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If the hacker was constantly pumping bitcoins out from magic-the-gathering-online-exchange then the volume seems plausible. If the hacker tumbled the coins then the volume makes even more sense.
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Interesting read. So if the Chinese were not responsible for that bubble then their People's bank overreacted and tried to solve a problem that didn't exist in the first place which means they should unban bitcoin now? |
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400$, let's see what new highs this week brings. the start looks promising  |
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We got the second dot...  |
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Mainly because the title is also "It's happening!" and in reality it's not happening, it happened and now that's not the case anymore. Just living in the past.
I wonder what's that object that's been stuck in your butt for a while now and if it's sharp. You do realize that the topic is a week old and we're still higher than initially? No one stops you from creating your own topic and titling it to It's not happening! 387$. Even if the rally that started a week ago is not going to continue any time soon I will leave this topic as it is in the memory of the great rally that got us higher than 450$ and made the weekly parabolic SAR flip the side. This rally indicates the start of a mid-term bull era. If you feel this topic is not appropriate any more then let it die and don't pump it any more, simple. |
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Please update the thread title to reflect the fact that we are now back down around $375. Thanks, OP.
WTF man why should I lower it? The whole point was about how high this rally brings us and not to indicate the current market price. If you want to see the market price, go to http://bitcoinity.org/markets and it keeps you updated. |
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Does anyone have it? What's the user experience? Some time ago there were some pretty bad reviews about the card. For example, it didn't always work and the balances got missing. Also, there were some hidden fees. Are these still issues or have they resolved them? Please, share your story.
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have you seen the new low we are going to test again?
not sure what you mean. I have no idea what happens but I'd guess that we see some consolidation before capturing new highs. |
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I sold around $430 and kept trying to catch the falling knife, but I think I'll get back in at $386. I still think we'll have an exciting weekend.
I'm amazed by the fact that these mini dead cat bounces are actually happening. It was so obvious when it first bounced back to 430. I almost saw it all coming but just wanted to see first if it really plays out by the book. |
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