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1521  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Will Ubuntu for smartphones explode Bitcoin? on: January 09, 2013, 12:48:08 AM
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.miracleas.bitcoin_spinner&hl=en

1522  Other / Politics & Society / Re: What are the minimum prerequisites for Capitalism to be possible? on: January 08, 2013, 06:42:55 PM
Also, almost everyone's own understanding of the term varies, even if it generally agrees with one or the other common definition.  Are we talking about the ideological or economic definition of capitalism?

Does anyone have issues with this definition of Capitalism?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capitalism
Capitalism is an economic system that is based on the private ownership of capital goods, or the means of production, and the creation of goods and services for profit. Elements central to Capitalism include capital accumulation, competitive markets, and a price system.

Yes, it's too broad.  You need to read a bit further in to see the problem...
Quote
There are multiple variants of capitalism, including laissez-faire, welfare capitalism and state capitalism. Capitalism is considered to have been applied in a variety of historical cases, varying in time, geography, politics, and culture.[5] There is general agreement that capitalism became dominant in the Western world following the demise of feudalism.[6]

Economists (including political economists) and historians have taken different perspectives on the analysis of capitalism. Economists usually emphasize the degree to which government does not have control over markets (laissez-faire), as well as the importance of property rights.[7][8] Most political economists emphasize private property as well, in addition to power relations, wage labor, class, and the uniqueness of capitalism as a historical formation.[9] The extent to which different markets are free, as well as the rules defining private property, is a matter of politics and policy. Many states have what are termed mixed economies, referring to the varying degree of planned and market-driven elements in an economic system.[9] In the 20th century, in reaction to the negative connotations sometimes associated with capitalism, defenders of the capitalist system often replaced the terms capitalist and capitalism by phrases such as free enterprise and private enterprise.[10]

The term capitalism gradually spread throughout the Western world in the 19th and 20th centuries largely through the writings of Karl Marx.[5]

And then things get more detailed here...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capitalism#Types_of_capitalism

While I do agree that capitalism describes an "economic system" the very use of that term implies a structured plan, presumedly by human planners, as opposed to a natural & emergent order that develops on it's own if not interfered with by governments or other third parties.
1523  Other / Politics & Society / Re: My wife is a hero: mom shoots intruder 5 times, saves kids on: January 08, 2013, 06:31:04 AM

This also shows that low-capacity magazines also are no option even for self-defense. She used all six bullets from revolver

Guys, stop misquoting each other.  Both the article, and I, have pointed out that she used five shots.  The article implies, probably incorrectly, that the revolver was a six shooter.  Odds are high that it was either a 5 shot revolver, or another caliber.  The six round 38 special is a rare animal for a variety of technical reasons, and as far as I am aware, none have been mass produced in over 50 years.  You can get a 22lr revovler in 5, 6 & 8 round versions; and larger caliber revolvers (45?) in rather heavy & large 6 round versions, but a 6 round 38 special cannot be a compact weapon, and as such is uncommon.  
What the Hell are you talking about? The article specifically mentions that the gun was a ".38 revolver" which is stated to be empty after six shots were fired. Presumably it was a .38 Special, which to this day is the single most popular revolver cartridge, with a 6-shot cylinder being most common for this calibre (although 5- and 7-shot revolvers exist), hardly a "rare animal". There were a total of 6 shots fired: 5 hits and 1 miss. Learn to read. Roll Eyes

I read it, I question it's accuracy.  I did a google search for other articles on this event, and among those that I could find, no others actually said that she fired 6 shots.  All of them said that she hit him in the face and neck 5 times, and a few mentioned that she had emptied the revolver but still buffaloed the guy by telling him that if he got up she'd shoot again, before running to a neighbor's house with her kids.  I find it very likely that it was a 38 special, but not likely that it was a six shooter.  I have zero evidence, mind you, but experience regarding how often early reporting gets details wrong makes me believe that the writer of this article interpreted "hit five times, empty revolver" to mean that she missed once.  How many reporters do you think have experience with a revolver, and how many only think of wild west movies?  A 38 special in six shots is rare, because they have to be the frame size of a service revolver.  While reducing the capacity by one reduces both weight and frame size significantly, making the 38 special a crediblely compact & concealable weapon.  Which is pretty much how they are used, and thus how manufactures make them.  While I wouldn't doubt that full size frame revolvers are still manufactured, perhaps for "cowboy shooting" competitions, the majority that exist are old handguns from the days that such revolvers were the standard police issue sidearm.  Their numbers are significantly outweighed by the number of 5 shot compact revolvers.  I don't even know if I'd trust such an old handgun to not blow up in my hand, considering the significant advancements in +P powder tech.  The 38 special was originally a black powder round, and has gone through a number of 'revisions' over the past 100+ years of it's existence.

Could she have used a 6 shot 38?  Yes.  I just don't consider that combination likely.
1524  Other / Politics & Society / Re: What are the minimum prerequisites for Capitalism to be possible? on: January 08, 2013, 06:04:08 AM
To be fair, bonker is correct that monopoly is the natural tendency of a capitalist business; especially corporations. Since the point of business and capitalism is to acquire wealth, that often also means taking over an ever increasing share of the market. What bonker is missing is the fact that it's impossible to take over 100% of the market in anything for any extended period of time, due to competition and substitution (Coke tries to get a monopoly > Pepsi provides competition AND Tropicana Orange Juice provides substitution > Coke is forced to lower prices)

While true, taken alone, that statement does not prove his premise; that monopolies are an equilibrium state of capitalism.  While you provide one reason why, another is the issue of corporations themselves.  Corporations, as they currently exist, are not natural organizations within the context of capitalism ( economic definition) while they probably are within the context of Capitalism (political ideology).  Corporations are, by their very definitions, legal fictions of a nation-state; and thus cannot begin to exist in the absence of a government.  Although the disappearance of the national government may not be fatal to a corporation, due to the probability that any large and well funded corporation could reasonablely function in the place of government within it's own sphere of influence.  Corporations are, in effect, the children of the state that begot them, and may not require the care of the state after a certain maturity and development.

Yet, corporations that operate within the same industry cannot peacefully coexist in the absence of the parental state, so in the case of the fall of that parental state, corporations can be expected to behave badly towards each other and their peers' resources.  Much like the brothers of a recently departed king.  Companies that are wholly owned, however, function as an extention of that owner's own will; representing him both in business and reputation.  While a CEO can shrug off accusations of criminal activity under his charge, because of the distribution of responsibility that the corporate structure cultivates; the whole owner is truly responsible for the wrongdoing of his employees while operating in his employ.  This is not a small difference.
1525  Other / Politics & Society / Re: What are the minimum prerequisites for Capitalism to be possible? on: January 08, 2013, 05:48:48 AM
I would contend that formalized property rights are a result of capitalism at work, not a pre-requisite.  It's provablely true that capitalism exists even in places for which it is, directly or indirectly, forbidden.  If the society at large does not recognize the property rights of a capitalist, then he will find a workaround to that limitation.  Thus, strong property rights could not be a requirement.

What about being a functional part of Capitalism at play? Is that fair? I don't really see how the practice of trade might somehow cause property rights afterwards.


Property rights are encourged by capitalism because efficiencies in markets favor strong property rights within those markets.  It's no secret that governments across human history are practially influenced by the wealthiest among them, and whenever capitalism has been allowed to dominate, the wealthy include those who became wealthy using capitalist principles, whether they understood them as such or not.  While the individial capitalist might favor a monopoly power, his peers resist that for their own ends.  This balance of forces favors the legal establishment and enforcement of property rights.

Or subversion thereof?! You seem to have stumbled upon a point where Capitalism might create a pressure for governments to come into existence and enact various laws. I suspect this might be anathema to some...

Certainly, but nor is a government a pre-requisite.  It's not inevitable either.  I think that we need to stop and agree on a definition for what capitalism is, for the purposes of this discussion.  As far as I can tell, I am the only person in this tread to point out that more than one popular definition exists.  Also, almost everyone's own understanding of the term varies, even if it generally agrees with one or the other common definition.  Are we talking about the ideological or economic definition of capitalism?
1526  Other / Beginners & Help / Re: I will answer your nooby noob questions about bitcoin! on: January 08, 2013, 02:12:24 AM
I am using electrum 1.6.0
I tried going to a free bitcoin website to see if my wallet address was working (one of the five that electrum gave me)
Seemed to work since I tried another address and "it said" you already have a deposit in your wallet.

The problem is the electrum client
When I first started it out, it was the expanded GUI client interface ,
Unfortunately now all I see is the small skin interface without the usual commands

After searching for the last two hours, I still don't know how to go back to that larger GUI screen as there are no buttons to indicate how to do that.

Any ideas ?
I'm using Ubuntu 12.04 (32bit)  and I am just starting my knowledge of linux and Ubuntu
but learn quickly.

argh, frustrating when all i see our posts about the code etc. which is above my head



you're going to have to post this one in the electrum thread.
1527  Other / Politics & Society / Re: What are the minimum prerequisites for Capitalism to be possible? on: January 08, 2013, 02:07:10 AM
I would contend that formalized property rights are a result of capitalism at work, not a pre-requisite.  It's provablely true that capitalism exists even in places for which it is, directly or indirectly, forbidden.  If the society at large does not recognize the property rights of a capitalist, then he will find a workaround to that limitation.  Thus, strong property rights could not be a requirement.

What about being a functional part of Capitalism at play? Is that fair? I don't really see how the practice of trade might somehow cause property rights afterwards.


Property rights are encourged by capitalism because efficiencies in markets favor strong property rights within those markets.  It's no secret that governments across human history are practially influenced by the wealthiest among them, and whenever capitalism has been allowed to dominate, the wealthy include those who became wealthy using capitalist principles, whether they understood them as such or not.  While the individial capitalist might favor a monopoly power, his peers resist that for their own ends.  This balance of forces favors the legal establishment and enforcement of property rights.

Quote
If my earlier reasoning holds,
TL;DR:
Quote
Property rights --> scarcity --> specialization + human nature --> tendency to at least some monopolization.


Scarcity is not a result of property rights.  Scarcity is a result of reality.  I really don't have a method of getting you there from where you are here.  Again, it's provablely true that capitalism exists even in societies that forbid it, and actively work to suppress it.  Thus property rights cannot be a pre-requisite.

Quote
and it's pure Capitalism with no Socialist compromises, nothing to hold people back, then Bonkers could be right about monopolies being a natural equilibrium point.


Well, I can't prove a negative; but since there is no such thing as a natural and stable monopoly across the recorded history of mankind, I'd wager it's safe to say that she is incorrect on this point. 

Quote
I think it's an issue of semantics -- even an artist might have a monopoly on their special brand of artwork.

Not without a government granted advantage.  Copyright is, by definition, a tempoary monopoly on the reproduction of artworks enforced by government statutes.  Absent the use, or threat of use, of government force; no artist could command a monopoly on similar works, nor on modern machine copies.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IeTybKL1pM4
1528  Economy / Economics / Re: History buffs: Capitalism vs. socialism on: January 08, 2013, 01:50:55 AM
Has the adoption of capitalism ever resulted in a society becoming poorer or collapsing? I can't think of any examples.

There are plenty of examples of countries falling apart due to socialist/communist/fascist policies. Are there any such examples involving capitalism?

That's a hard one to answer, because as a political ideology, capitalism is fairly young, even though elements of it have been rising and falling from favor for thousands of years.  The same can be said of socialism as a coherent ideology.

We would have to be able to type each nation that has ever "collapsed" and be able to determine if they were, practically speaking, more capitalist or more socialist at the point of breakdown.  I doubt that there is an objective method of doing this.
1529  Other / Politics & Society / Re: This should give FirstAscent a stroke... on: January 08, 2013, 01:46:35 AM
before this get any more painful and embarrassing:

the obvious flaw in the glass of icewater example is that the ice is - compared to the size and general heat input/output of the earth - very small and local. you can have most of earth being rather unaffacted by the cooling effect of this little bit of melting ice while at the same time the ice is massively affected by even little changes to this huge planet.


Dude, we are not talking about a little bit of ice.  While the ice-in-a-glass analogy has obvious flaws, the effect would certainly have a dampening effect upon the global averages, for no other reason than the area that is 'local' to the polar ice does make up a significant portion of the globe, and cannot much exceed 32 degrees F lest the melting of the ice absorb that heat.

We are also not talking about a little bit of water...

Ice:
Sea Ice Volume is calculated using the Pan-Arctic Ice Ocean Modeling and Assimilation System (PIOMAS, Zhang and Rothrock, 2003) developed at APL/PSC.  Anomalies for each day are calculated relative to the average over the 1979 -2011 period for that day of the year to remove the annual cycle. The model mean annual cycle of sea ice volume over this period ranges from 28,700 km3 in April to 12,300 km3 in September.  The blue line represents the trend calculated from January 1 1979 to the most recent date indicated on the figure.  Monthly averaged ice volume for September 2012 was 3,400 km3. This value is 72% lower than the mean over this period, 80% lower than the maximum in 1979, and 2.0 standard deviations below the 1979-2011  trend.

Water:
"The average depth of the ocean is about 3,796 meters (12,451 feet), the volume of seawater 1.37 billion cubic kilometers"

So using 2012 numbers and just polar sea ice we have a ratio of 385,294:1 in favor of water. Mean numbers since 1979 give us 45,644:1.

If we add in Greenland and the Antarctic Ice in the water (along with all other water-borne ice) you still "only" get 620,000 km3 (2005 numbers, fun paper to read: http://www.johnstonsarchive.net/environment/waterworld.html) for a ratio of 2112:1 in favor of water.

Even if we dump every last icicle and snowball in the ocean and clear every mountain and continent of all ice, we still only get down to 44:1 water to ice ratio.

Any way you slice it it's 4.4cm (polar-ice model) ice cube floating in a glass the size of a 20' Conex container. Even the "all-in" scenario only has a 90cm cube, and one end of the container is at 70+ degree tropical water. Do you really think you will reach equilibrium at 32 degrees in this system? Even if we turn off all external energy sources that ice is doomed.

THIS is why I'm sure FirstAscent was positively giddy when that analogy was used, it is so ridiculous if you look at the numbers that it beggars belief.

Thanks for the laugh guys,

Scrybe


Wow, you really missed the point.
1530  Other / Politics & Society / Re: What are the minimum prerequisites for Capitalism to be possible? on: January 08, 2013, 01:36:43 AM
And this one is useful as well, as the main characters are engaging in capitalism at the smallest scale.

http://www.desertislandgame.com/
1531  Other / Politics & Society / Re: What are the minimum prerequisites for Capitalism to be possible? on: January 08, 2013, 01:27:52 AM
This is a wonderful resource for anyone trying to improve themselves in this topic.  As a sidenote, she takes donations for support via bitcoin.

http://praxgirl.com/2011/06/10/episode-1-the-introduction/

Be warned though, she and her crew have been doing this for a couple of years now, and have quite a few episodes in the can.  Not only can catching up take some serious time, she doesn't wait for the slow kids if they fall off the back of the bus.
1532  Other / Politics & Society / Re: What are the minimum prerequisites for Capitalism to be possible? on: January 08, 2013, 01:18:27 AM
Unfortunately, monopolies are a natural equilibrium state of capitalism. To function effectively, capitalism must be supported by a hidden system of authoritarian control..

You're welcome to believe that lie, if you like, but I'm not going to pretend it's truth to make you happy. For instance, you still haven't explained how that happens.

That's rather dramatic language. I'm not happy or sad about the nature of reality, I just try and see it clearly. Your attitude, by contrast, is of someone in denial
 when an attempt is made to rouse them from a comforting dream. Unfortunately, you are actually living in a dream world.
I restate: the real-world existence of anti-trust action and global monopoly legislation indicate that monopoly is a natural end state of capitalism.

To simplify, it "happens" though a process of concentration of power.    



Oh, the irony!  The cognative dissonance must be bewildering.

To me it seems plausible that without "property rights", which some people insist are essential for Capitalism to work, resource scarcity would work differently. Scarce resources might diffuse and spread evenly throughout society, a la: some sort of idealised Socialism. From a progress POV, this could be bad as there might be no pressure to innovate -- since everyone already has all the same stuff, it might not occur to anyone to try and create anything different. (Side note: they say that "travel broadens the mind" -- you get to discover all these new scarce things! Wink )

Thus, property rights do seem like a driving force behind increasing relative scarcity. When some people own stuff, those resources become relatively more scarce for those who don't own them. The real world seems to consist of a chaotic assortment of millions of different things that are more or less scarce, depending on where people happen to live. Combined with the ideas of property and ownership, there is huge pressure to specialize in some particular field.

It also seems plausible that this specialisation is self-reinforcing, that there's some positive feedback loop going on. E.g.: you own some resource, it's abundant for you and scarce for others. Laziness and routine seems like human nature, so when people see an opportunity, e.g.: a natural talent that's easy for them but a nightmare for others, I guess they'll want to make the most of it, right? Absolute monopolies might be rare, but that's semantics. How about a general pressure towards monopolization?

I would contend that formalized property rights are a result of capitalism at work, not a pre-requisite.  It's provablely true that capitalism exists even in places for which it is, directly or indirectly, forbidden.  If the society at large does not recognize the property rights of a capitalist, then he will find a workaround to that limitation.  Thus, strong property rights could not be a requirement.
1533  Other / Politics & Society / Re: What are the minimum prerequisites for Capitalism to be possible? on: January 08, 2013, 01:08:54 AM

What you say is true, the existence of a law does not prove it's necessity. But, considering economics as a rational science, it is evidence that monopoly is a danger.


Considering that there are a number of competing economic theories even today, and in many ways they contradict each other, I don't consider the above statement to be a given.  If you wish to keep it, you're going to have to make that case based upon whatever version of Economics you speak of.

Quote
My statement was that monopoly was an equilibrium state of capitalism. I'm not entirely sure what you expect when you want a detailed discussion of this. This a forum, not a journal.

And what is this premise based upon?  There is no evidence to suggest this is true, even temporarily.
1534  Other / Politics & Society / Re: What are the minimum prerequisites for Capitalism to be possible? on: January 08, 2013, 01:02:07 AM

Well, save for the fact that I myself was convinced by argumentation of at least some of the finer points,

I aslo qualified that by limiting that effect to those over 35.  Are you over 35?  If so, I may have to push up my model.
1535  Other / Politics & Society / Re: What are the minimum prerequisites for Capitalism to be possible? on: January 08, 2013, 01:00:38 AM
Unfortunately, monopolies are a natural equilibrium state of capitalism. To function effectively, capitalism must be supported by a hidden system of authoritarian control..

You're welcome to believe that lie, if you like, but I'm not going to pretend it's truth to make you happy. For instance, you still haven't explained how that happens.

That's rather dramatic language. I'm not happy or sad about the nature of reality, I just try and see it clearly. Your attitude, by contrast, is of someone in denial
 when an attempt is made to rouse them from a comforting dream. Unfortunately, you are actually living in a dream world.
I restate: the real-world existence of anti-trust action and global monopoly legislation indicate that monopoly is a natural end state of capitalism.

To simplify, it "happens" though a process of concentration of power.    



Oh, the irony!  The cognative dissonance must be bewildering.

All you have to do is provide a coherent and succinct counter arguement. That's all. No need for dramatics.

It wouldn't matter.  We aren't even speaking the same language.  To prove that point, just try and define capitalism in one sentence. 
1536  Other / Politics & Society / Re: What are the minimum prerequisites for Capitalism to be possible? on: January 08, 2013, 12:37:17 AM
Unfortunately, monopolies are a natural equilibrium state of capitalism. To function effectively, capitalism must be supported by a hidden system of authoritarian control..

You're welcome to believe that lie, if you like, but I'm not going to pretend it's truth to make you happy. For instance, you still haven't explained how that happens.

Remember my post the other day, in another thread, wherein I laid bare the reality that most people who argue on obscure Internet forums are actually not capable of changing their minds, regardless of what evidence is presented?

Based on both your most recent conversations here, and your experience in general, would you say my assessment is generally correct or generally incorrect?
1537  Other / Politics & Society / Re: What are the minimum prerequisites for Capitalism to be possible? on: January 08, 2013, 12:34:35 AM
Unfortunately, monopolies are a natural equilibrium state of capitalism. To function effectively, capitalism must be supported by a hidden system of authoritarian control..

You're welcome to believe that lie, if you like, but I'm not going to pretend it's truth to make you happy. For instance, you still haven't explained how that happens.

That's rather dramatic language. I'm not happy or sad about the nature of reality, I just try and see it clearly. Your attitude, by contrast, is of someone in denial
 when an attempt is made to rouse them from a comforting dream. Unfortunately, you are actually living in a dream world.
I restate: the real-world existence of anti-trust action and global monopoly legislation indicate that monopoly is a natural end state of capitalism.

To simplify, it "happens" though a process of concentration of power.    



Oh, the irony!  The cognative dissonance must be bewildering.
1538  Other / Politics & Society / Re: What are the minimum prerequisites for Capitalism to be possible? on: January 08, 2013, 12:33:08 AM

In short, monopolies just don't last. Big reason for that is because they get settled in with what they know how to do best, and get killed by newer more efficient technologies they aren't able to adapt to.

I remember Microsoft being subjected to huge anti-trust action. It was smart enough to maintain a monopoly and, as such, was forced to let competition in.
That's not at all what happened.  Microsoft effectively won that fight, and the anti-trust portion of the case was completely dropped.

And then GNU/Linux and MacOSX proceeded to eat their lunch.

And by any objective definition of the term, MS was never a real monopoly, only a temporary market dominator.
1539  Other / Politics & Society / Re: My wife is a hero: mom shoots intruder 5 times, saves kids on: January 07, 2013, 11:38:06 PM
Anyway for zombies or escaped slaves a belt fed machine gun is needed to score a sure kill!

For human being any caliber can be deadly, but often the death is not immediate like in computer games. The women might have a collectible revolver just as good.

P.S. I envy how Americans have rare weapons such as Mauser C96, Luger, P38 and early versions of Tokarev TT-30. Looks like whole Europe arsenal is bought to USA.

I've got a former soviet weapon as well. 
1540  Other / Politics & Society / Re: My wife is a hero: mom shoots intruder 5 times, saves kids on: January 07, 2013, 11:17:20 PM

This also shows that low-capacity magazines also are no option even for self-defense. She used all six bullets from revolver

Guys, stop misquoting each other.  Both the article, and I, have pointed out that she used five shots.  The article implies, probably incorrectly, that the revolver was a six shooter.  Odds are high that it was either a 5 shot revolver, or another caliber.  The six round 38 special is a rare animal for a variety of technical reasons, and as far as I am aware, none have been mass produced in over 50 years.  You can get a 22lr revovler in 5, 6 & 8 round versions; and larger caliber revolvers (45?) in rather heavy & large 6 round versions, but a 6 round 38 special cannot be a compact weapon, and as such is uncommon.  
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