it would be my understanding amt will/can pass the buck down to bitmine who in turn may pass it on to the next in the line. strengthened with the fact amt has said theyr not entertaining bitmine in favor of another supplier. so your class actions *may fall short of giving you more than answers to why amt failed thus far, as if amt can dissolve the liabiliry on to their supplier then nothing will get done other than a judge saying "case closed i find in favor of the defendants" next case "amt vs bitmine.ch" pmsl
Your understanding is incorrect. AMT has a contract with each customer individually. Amt also has sales contracts in place with the suppliers and vendors. Those contracts are COMPLETELY separate. If there is an issue with the sales contract with clients it will be dealt with between AMT and their customer. If for some reason AMT's suppliers or vendors have done something to break the contract between AMT and the supplier/vendor it will be dealt with between the supplier/vendor and AMT. Possibly the damage caused to AMT by supplier/vendor breaking contract may impact the amount AMT could go after but in no way does it matter to the sales contract between AMT and their clients. You see not a single solitary customer has a contract with Bitmine or IMET or any AMT supplier/vendor but they do have a sales contract with AMT and that is who will pay the price for entering into that contract. That's just how the world works. AMT like you have failed to realize some basic business fundamentals. If you buy a GM car with Firestone tires and a recall happens, do you deal with GM or Firestone. Of course you return it to the dealership and they happily replace the tires at no cost to you. What you don't see is that GM is "billing" Firestone for each tire replaced and the labour to install them. The purchaser deals with whomever they have a contract with, good luck going to Firestone and getting them to replace the recalled tires. snippets from t/c that all customers had to agree to prior to purchase otherwise no purchase could be made. all shipping after amt gives it to fed ex is "your" responsibility "• Shipping Charges; Taxes; Title; Risk of Loss. Shipping, handling and tax are additional unless otherwise expressly indicated at the time of sale. Products are delivered to you Ex Works in accordance with INCOTERMS 2010. This means title to products passes from AMT to you upon shipment. Loss or damage that occurs during shipping by a carrier is your responsibility. You must notify AMT within 21 days of the date of shipment if you believe any part of your purchase is missing, wrong or damaged" and as far as delays goes "outside of amts controll" i.e bitmine.ch delays or otherwise " Excusable Delay. AMT shall not be liable for any delay or failure to perform due to any cause beyond its control or the control of its suppliers or subcontractors such as, for example, strikes, acts of God, acts of Buyer, Acts of Financial Payment Processing institutions, including freezing/holding of accounts, consumer payments, and interruption of transportation or inability to obtain the necessary labor, materials or facilities. Delivery schedules shall be considered extended by a period of time which AMT deems necessary due to the event circumstances or cause of delay. In the event AMT is unable wholly or partially to perform because of any such cause it may cancel its acceptance of Buyer’s order without liability to Buyer." them two claws in their t/c wraps up 90-100% of the cases i believe. weve had this before where it is in contravention of yada statue law bull but end of the day you agreed to the above as a customer. short n curleys being tugged. A court is not going to give a rat's ass about some bullshit ToS. Let me break it down, a company cannot take your money for a product that does not exist and then write a ToS that contradicts FTC FEDERAL REGULATIONS and then tell you to fuck off and wait until we are good and ready to send you anything they want at any point. The whole FTC mail order rule is kinda written so horse shit like this doesn't happen. Once this hits the real world (ie a court room and not this wild west Deadwood everyone seems to love), a lot of people are going to find out just how bad all the American mining manufactures have really fucked up. Screwing around with the FTC is going to seem like fun if fraud and or wire fraud charges get brought up in the near future. |
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it would be my understanding amt will/can pass the buck down to bitmine who in turn may pass it on to the next in the line. strengthened with the fact amt has said theyr not entertaining bitmine in favor of another supplier. so your class actions *may fall short of giving you more than answers to why amt failed thus far, as if amt can dissolve the liabiliry on to their supplier then nothing will get done other than a judge saying "case closed i find in favor of the defendants" next case "amt vs bitmine.ch" pmsl
Your understanding is incorrect. AMT has a contract with each customer individually. Amt also has sales contracts in place with the suppliers and vendors. Those contracts are COMPLETELY separate. If there is an issue with the sales contract with clients it will be dealt with between AMT and their customer. If for some reason AMT's suppliers or vendors have done something to break the contract between AMT and the supplier/vendor it will be dealt with between the supplier/vendor and AMT. Possibly the damage caused to AMT by supplier/vendor breaking contract may impact the amount AMT could go after but in no way does it matter to the sales contract between AMT and their clients. You see not a single solitary customer has a contract with Bitmine or IMET or any AMT supplier/vendor but they do have a sales contract with AMT and that is who will pay the price for entering into that contract. That's just how the world works. AMT like you have failed to realize some basic business fundamentals. If you buy a GM car with Firestone tires and a recall happens, do you deal with GM or Firestone. Of course you return it to the dealership and they happily replace the tires at no cost to you. What you don't see is that GM is "billing" Firestone for each tire replaced and the labour to install them. The purchaser deals with whomever they have a contract with, good luck going to Firestone and getting them to replace the recalled tires. |
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Well it appears that "clients_of_amt" sure hear a lot sitting in the waiting room. But since they shipped out miners they knew didn't work or could put their customers in danger combined with the fact that were vocal about not cooperating with those customers who sent in complaints I wonder if I should have them brought up on charges of attempted homicide.
Either way I'll have to send the picture of my burnt up chip to the attorneys handling the class action.
Ya they better hope they have all there certifications in order or they are going to be in even worse shape. |
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Dear AMT customers/clients/followers. We write to inform you that due to the pending class action, Lenell et al. v. Advanced Mining Technology, Inc., No. 14-cv-01924 (E.D.Pa.), we will no longer be communicating on the Bitcoin Talk Forum per the advice of our attorneys. We are still working towards resolving all outstanding customer complaints in conjunction with our counsel. Please note that customers may still contact us directly to discuss issues with their orders, but we will be unable to use the forum as a means of communication regarding specific orders or the pending litigation. You may contact us by phone at 855-866-6463 or by email at josh@advancedminers.com . We will still handle individual communications regarding orders within the ordinary course of business. Now if only you asshats had just started the business with normal funding methods instead of using CUSTOMER pre-order money to fund your start up and if you guys hadn't been completely ignorant to your initial investomers you may have been able to avoid the legal ass raping you fellows are likely in for. Enjoy it, you brought it all on yourselves. Come to think of it these guys should have just done the exact opposite of everything they did. I bet in bizzaro world AMT is the MS of BTC mining manufacturing! |
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so glad we got our refund. what a mess.
Awesome that you got a refund.....that is the equivalent of stepping to the side as the shit hits the fan...bravo  also your experience in getting a refund sets a precedent that they should be issuing refunds and were discriminatory in who they issued them to. A huge legal mess they are in now with that. Here's the thing though, he got his refund because someone else paid for his unit. Which means that AMT will refund you, IF they have the money. I don't think they have the money. This type of business model is name after an Italian gentlemen. Sure sounds like AMT is very shortly going to find out that there is no legal definition for an investomer. A person is either a customer or an investor and it likely won't be long until AMT finds out the legal rights and the legal recourse for each class of person are VERY different. Because we gave them money and expected a return on that investment....which is what ROI literally is....and is covered under the MPP...it can easily be argued that we are investors in the company and as such AMT would have a fiduciary duty to provide us with the increase or break even of said investment. Interesting point.....and might be cause for yet another case seeing as the class action covers other aspects of product misrepresentation. As far as it being a Ponzi scheme.....technically its not....I say that because they actually do provide a product flawed and misrepresented as it is, it is indeed a physical product. BUT the investomer concept AND the fact that they refer to giving us an ROI via the MPP they pretty much opened up to the fact that we are in fact investors. It could be argued that way at least in a courtroom with relative ease. But I don't think the current complaint covers that. The Ponzi comment was sort of a joke, they are obviously not running a true ponzi, but it's resemblance to one is uncanny. I really don't think any of these manufacture's want to argue in court or anywhere else they were selling investments. They are in enough of a shit storm already I doubt they want to get into SEC target range as well. |
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so glad we got our refund. what a mess.
Awesome that you got a refund.....that is the equivalent of stepping to the side as the shit hits the fan...bravo also your experience in getting a refund sets a precedent that they should be issuing refunds and were discriminatory in who they issued them to. A huge legal mess they are in now with that. Here's the thing though, he got his refund because someone else paid for his unit. Which means that AMT will refund you, IF they have the money. I don't think they have the money. This type of business model is name after an Italian gentlemen. Sure sounds like AMT is very shortly going to find out that there is no legal definition for an investomer. A person is either a customer or an investor and it likely won't be long until AMT finds out the legal rights and the legal recourse for each class of person are VERY different. |
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I got screwed up also with preorders: $12K AMT miners Josh that son of the bitch. $4500 BFL fucked me over. $12K Cointerra with pre-orders late..and not the speed that they promised. How many of these American Junky companies are outhere? And No one seems to not be able to stop them! Well at least you didn't order from Hash Fast... |
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Monarchs will make pennys by the time there out,butterflylabs have once again been unfaithfull,but there is no real evidence there mining with your miners before they ship,why do people think this?
Mostly because recent court documents show they have been... The question is not if they have been mining but how long and how much have they made from mining. I for one hope we get to see the # BTC they mined burning in gear, I think it's going to be quite high. If this is the case old Sonny boy better hope he is better at hiding them than the man is at finding them... On top of that the courts better not find out that any of the people working at BF Labs had working gear mining for themselves before customer orders were filled. If the lads at BF Labs are as stupid as I think they are then a shit storm is about to be unleashed and it's going to get messy and take a long time to figure it out. Not to mention the fact that BFL ran around these very forums in 2012 stating they would not burn in on the main net. They valued their customers and wouldn't dare break the trust of the mining community by affecting the hash rate with their MASSIVE onslaught of hash rate. At the time they were going to descend on USPS and Fed Ex like a pack of Locust!!!! Oh god the good old days, can't wait to see some of the stone cold bullshit Inaba posted end up as evidence against the whole BF Labs crew! http://www.scribd.com/doc/217190032/Butterfly-Labs-Production-of-Requested-Information-December-6-20134 What is Eclipse Mining Equipment? Eclipse Mining Consortium was a website that Butterfly Labs purchased from Josh Zerlan in 2012. The website was a Bitcoin mining pool website that allowed multiple users to work together to mine Bitcoins that would be shared among the group. Pooled mining allows a user to receive smaller, but more frequent Bitcoins that are divided by the number of shares that an individual earns relative to the processing power that they contributed to mining a block of Bitcoins. Butterfly Labs acquired the IP address and website from Mr. Zerlan for 100,000. Eclipse Mining Consortium still operates as a Bitcoin mining pool website. The business purpose was to offer customers a place to combine their BitCoin mining power. Butterfly Labs earns mining income from their bum testing of machines as well as service fees charged to Eclipse customers |
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I paid in USD. Have wire transaction records, e-mails from Hashfast confirming receipt and that the order is okay, etc. Can't imagine how they could DQ me. The evidence is irrefutable.
Then again, if their shipping update posts are to be believed, they are on the verge of actually filling the remaining Batch 2 upgrade card orders, which would remove me from this action.... regrettable, since at this point seeing the bastards taken out is of more interest to me than the upgrade card.
Unless the suit will also be advancing Batch 1 MPP claims, in which case I'll happily stay in!
I guess this is what I am asking. Will the court hearing this request take the time to basically vet each claimant (because not everyone is as honest as you  )? Or will the standing be that you must have proven your case with litigation (being vetted at trial) to be considered a creditor. They are asking a court to strip private citizens of a privately held corporation. It think it's pretty clear one way or the other they are going to vet claimants, I always assumed litigation was required but if these guys have done there homework then my assumptions are incorrect. |
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I assume since you mention that HF would likely use the strategy of DQing creditors that there is obviously a process for vetting actual creditors from people with other intentions, not your vetting process but the courts? I always thought this move required one to have some kind of official creditor status like a judgement or something. Basically a court vetted creditor in layman terms, otherwise isn't it still basically a "I say you owe me you say you don't scenario"?
If your angle is they need to be removed quickly to preserve the assets, doesn't that mean you need to preserve the assets while its under litigation?
I am curious how this can be done, can you share without giving to much away the procedural aspect of it?
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BTW, why is AMT selling a 2.4 TH/s miner when it can't even deliver a 1.2 TH/s miner: 42 units available for April 1st, 2014 shipment.
2,400 GH/s nominal performance ( + / – 10% )
Included accessories:
1x USB Cable
1x Network Cable
1x Power Cord
Bitcoin Miner Weight: 36 lb.
Dimensions: 19.7 x 8.4 x 19.5
Chip: Asic 28nm
Warranty: This unit’s system board has a
lifetime warranty from manufacture defect
or component failure.
Product specifications may differ from (+/- 10% running variance)
I assume because they need more investomers, lawyers are awfully expensive. Ironically lawyers also work on the pre-order (well pre-pay) business model |
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Like everyone (including the class action lawsuit) all charges will be withdrawn if satisfactory compensation (i.e. refund) is given. That is just the simplest way to proceed.
Unless of course they simply don't have the money to refund... This is a text book example of why using customer money to fund start up and development is an INCREDIBLY risky venture. The real world doesn't work like this because the risk is so much higher than the reward. A lot of these (mostly American) manufactures are going to find out that there is no legal definition for an investomer. One is either a customer or an investor and the legal rights, obligations and recourse for each are VERY different. The penalty for fucking both class of people is also VERY different (see FTC's ability to sue a company for $16,000 per violation!). AMT rolled the dice and they have already lost, they may not fully understand that, but they have (just like BFL and HF). |
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I just had another Jalapeno trip the current protection on my power supply.
That makes it the third unit to do this.
You will be happy to know that you some how had the EXTREME misfortune of receiving 3 units that fell into the <2% failure rate, unless of course you bought 150 units then ok my apologies your within the BFL official failure rates. Let me clear up a few points here real quick: [BFL stole nothing. Unless someone can provide some proof to the contrary, they are lying. BFL has scammed no one. Unless someone can provide proof to the contrary, they are lying. (Go on, ask for proof from the trolls claiming scams, you'll never get it.) BFL gave refund for over six months past the estimated shipping date. BFL only stopped giving refunds after shipping started. Anyone who tells you differently is lying. There was no promised shipping date for the Monarch line and in fact there were big bold text stating that it is a preorder and subject to delay. Anyone who tells you the Monarch is late and that BFL made promises on delivery time is lying. ]BFL has shipped over 50,000 products in the 65nm line. The failure rate is less than 1% (0.72%) not including power supplies. If you include power supplies, that goes to 1.65%. Far lower than industry average and a simply awesome (lack of) failure rate. Contrast to the other mining companies equipment, which has double digit failure rates and it's even better. Anyone who tells you differently is lying.[/li][/list] OP's experience is the norm. People rarely come to a forum to post when they have a positive experience, they usually come and post to complain. After 50,000 units shipped and you look at the complaints, that should tell you something. Most people are not complaining, just a handful of disgruntled people and a whole lot of trolls who aren't even customers.[/li][/list] The only people who get rude responses from me are people who initiate a conversation with rudeness or lies. Go on, ask one of the trolls to provide proof to the contrary, you won't find it. The secret is being respectful and polite and you get the same in return. Be an asshole and you get the same in return... funny how that works. [/list] |
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So less than 3 weeks till delivery is supposed to start? No chips in hand yet and no working proto?? Me thinks the delay train is about to run over some more investomers |
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The business model of taking orders and money/btc upfront for something that is not yet produced is a piss poor way to conduct business and just begging for governments to come in and lay the smack down. Develop your fucking product first and then sell it. That is the way that business should be and has been conducted for 99.99% of products.
If you do not have starting capital then go fucking raise it from investors instead of customers.
Idiots.
I have a feeling that some of these companies are going find out that there is no legal definition for an investomer, and it could get ugly. If the suit against BF Labs gets class certification it's going to get interesting and fun over the next few months! |
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Really looking forward to this event. Going to be there Sat and Sun! I am especially looking forward to hearing Jeff Berwick speak as I had the pleasure of meeting him personally not to long ago!
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I wish that KNC,Megabigpower & ASICminer farms get a "conscience" & shut down so "the people" can get their mining on!!!!!!!!!  hehe, wrong thread bro, your looking for the pipe dream or the snowballs chance in hell thread!!!!  So true though, centralization here we come baby, what a load of shit and the polar opposite of the entire philosophy I don't get the game plan over centralised farms apart from very short term profit, once they have near control why would an individual then bother to buy a BTC or why would a business want to accept BTC as payment, they are other, better commercial methods. I assume the short term profits are so high at this stage it's a no brainer. If you can create the machines and pay the whole operation off in a few short months then anything past that is basically a bonus bull bet on BTC. |
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I wish that KNC,Megabigpower & ASICminer farms get a "conscience" & shut down so "the people" can get their mining on!!!!!!!!! hehe, wrong thread bro, your looking for the pipe dream or the snowballs chance in hell thread!!!! So true though, centralization here we come baby, what a load of shit and the polar opposite of the entire philosophy |
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Oh god this is so good sooooooo much win in there. Things are just warming up in the legal arena when it comes to these companies. These ignorant stupid fucks will likely get to see how the real world works. Can't hide in Deadwood forever ASSHOLES, time for your comuppins!!
They want personal and business PC's for discovery. The paper work looks good I think they will probably get what they are asking for. Once they get inside it is good night BF Labs in my opinion.
One thing that stood out for me was this quote:
willfully using an exaggeration, falsehood, innuendo, or ambiguity as to a material fact, specifically regarding when shipment of mining equipment would occur and/or that mining equipment most likely would be shipped within two months or sooner;
Hey Inaba that silver tongue of yours is gonna get your buddy Sonny in some trouble HAHAHAHA, maybe you can use that silver tongue to lick the underside of the lawyers bag while they fuck Sonny in the legal asshole AGAIN.
The ball is rolling now, time to sit back and enjoy things as Karma works its magic!
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Isn't that the kid that Inaba caught using a sock puppet and then it was subsequently found out that he was shill bidding his own companies auctions on this forum?
Link? So multiple accounts are allowed on this forum? Maybe i will make some too. I'll have a look for a link to the relevant threads. Edit: here is the link https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=238474.0Multiple accounts are absolutely allowed. My understanding of the reasoning is because they can't effectively stop them they just warn people they exist and then let them exist. Unless they changed the policy and I missed it (quite possible) it is even ok to buy and sell accounts. |
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