OP: TLDR
*payment only in BTC - so where is my guarantee that you will refund me anytime? may I use escrow?
*not working prototype, no video or photos. just some CAD render of black box and want our money now?
*almost 3 months of waiting and free thousand of dollars loan. splendid.
and because you are from USA, I should also add 20% VAT to webpage price. hm.(
as Ytterbium has so eloquently pointed out, you're not going to get any asic mining company to fund the entire NRE, tapeout, and production costs just so you can buy a profitable money generating machine. otherwise, they would just mine with it. Sorry, really not trying to be rude here but I am wondering one thing here. As investor you put up money (fund) to help start the business (which is a risk) and in return (rightfully so) you stand to make increase in value if the company is successful. As a customer we get to put up money (fund) to help start the business (a risk) and in return we get a product, that's value is reduced (ATM) exceptionally quickly. Both people put up money and risked it, one of them gets a lot of possible long term upshot while the other gets, well almost no long term upshot? I mean its almost bad for early customers (and conversely really good for investors) if the company is really successful and sells millions of dollars of miners/chips as it makes their initial purchase less valuable, faster. I feel like a new term should be coined for the ASIC revolution as I think all pre-order folks should be called investomers instead of customers. |
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Edit: An interesting IPO being offered here by DeadTerra (not to be confused with Cointerra), involving HashFast (not to be confused with Fast Hash). Any comments, considering there's talk of a deal with first HashFast devices going exclusively to DeadTerra? Thanks for posting this link, crumbs. DeadTerra has a good reputation and I am glad he is putting together the IceDrill IPO based on HashFast. Right now there are few ways to get into the game besides buying actual mining rigs/chips. I will definitely be looking into DeadTerra's IPO. I suspect everyone will dump their shares of other mining operations to buy HashFast's shares since their claims, if true, would dominate the competition. You see why pre-orders are such bullshit, both for the buyers and sellers? The whole network has only touched 400 this week, and as I write this is humming along at around 340. So now, here comes a guy who says, in effect: "Uh, yeah, were coming with 500 in November, and we're going to hold on to some chunk of the total thereafter. You all are welcome to buy in to 60% of our action, because if there aren't some small stakeholders, and there's only six of us in the whole network, it won't be good." So, then ASICMiner has to increase. And buzzDave has to increase. And BFL has to smuggle a couple more minirigs out the back door. And KnC has to redefine its own hosting, and the hosting deals they've already made. And God knows what goes on in China with those now-commoditized 130nm chips. Oh, yeah, and I forgot CoinTerra. We don't know what they're going to do yet, I guess. The point is, any growth rate you put on this stuff can be -no, will be- black swanned. You wanna buy fixed hash, delivered to you at an uncertain time point in the future? Bend over. Ever since becoming involved with mining I have wondered why so many people are so willing to fund someone else's business (and shoulder a majority of the risk) in return for a product they paid full price for. In the real world there is a big difference between investors and customers (one funds the business and one buys goods or services), here in Deadwood we have investomers. I'll never get it that's for darn sure! |
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Fucking fantastic if it's true! PayPal finally listened. Shut these bastards down! It may be an isolated incident so ya if is the operative term at this point, but just for a minute imagine the sweet irony if PP decided to "fire" BFL as a customer LOL!!!!! |
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Yep, just waiting any info on chips here.  TH has done it's job so far.., slowly and with a lack of communication to us, but nonetheless at this point they are at Avalon's mercy just as we are. Except the little tiny thing of breaking Federal Trade Commissions regulations, IF they are refusing refunds before a product has shipped. Here come the lawyers. Listen, start your refund process with Paypal or your Credit card and please stop whining here. Stop being an advocate for everyone else and quietly take care of your own business. The sooner you get a refund the faster I can buy up your stuff. 1) IANAL 2) I don't need to start any refund process with anyone 3) I am no being an advocate for everyone I am stating the facts as I see them, my own business is quietly taken care of, thanks ever so much for the lovely advice! If you don't like what I say there is a neato little ignore button feel free to use it on me!! 4) see #1 no need for a refund here, btw if you want everyone refunded why not ask the company to abide by the law and issue a prompt full refund then you will get your wish and can buy up as many as you like. |
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Yep, just waiting any info on chips here. TH has done it's job so far.., slowly and with a lack of communication to us, but nonetheless at this point they are at Avalon's mercy just as we are. Except the little tiny thing of breaking Federal Trade Commissions regulations, IF they are refusing refunds before a product has shipped. |
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Strangely enough I work for a custom furniture manufacturer. 11 years now. Lol
If we did business like some of these ASIC manufacturers we wouldn't have been in business for last 50+ years.
Most companies here in Deadwood won't be around in 50 weeks let alone 50 months or 50 years. |
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It is not their responsibility to try to "resell" the item that is custom ordered and built for you.
Just like that same furniture maker shouldn't have to try to resell the custom work they did for you if you agreed to the terms knowing it could take a little longer to build than initially thought.
However none of these analogies really matter because in this case it is Customer Greed,
They see opportunity elsewhere and will try to screw anyone in their path to try to get ASIC mining equipment.
Don't give me this Holier-than-thou act either. I'm not buying it, anyone at this point that wants a refund just wants to spend their money on a different ship that they think will sail sooner.
I would disagree with you that these are custom items. cus·tom /ˈkəstəm/
Adjective
Made or done to order for a particular customer: "a custom guitar". These are neither made to order nor for a particular customer. And it is not our responsibility to make sure that they make a profit or continue to operate. I would also like to add that regardless of whether terrahash wants to or not, they are obligated by law to issue timely and full refunds. ASIC manufacture's mantra: Don't let a silly thing like the law get in the way of my profits. |
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Any idea of price per GH/s?
I am trying to decide to wait for you, or order through KnC.
If you are ok with discarding your KNC product in a couple of months after purchase, then go for it. yeah, i have to admit this is pretty rude and hostile.... Next we will be getting called monumental assholes and customers will get fired!!  Didn't Josh bash Avalon's machine for being "old tech" and becoming obsolete fast. Get your own shit together, let us figure out how good or shit your competition is. |
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Chargeback your credit card and they'll rip the funds from paypal.
Well done Mills out of my utter exhaustion of trying to labour this point across to all those who claim to be held hostage, you are the absolute first person to fully comprehend this concept. If there's nothing more than being held hostage by a company that deny's you a refund they enjoy, it's spending hours editing forms online with Paypal that never get read, receiving bog standard cut and paste responses, or talking to Paypal customer service agents that have no power to 'escalate claims' as there is a form to fill in for that. Personally chasing your tail sucks. As you paid with your balance, you also have no option to claim the payment back by the creditcard company or the bank. It appears as though he paid with his PP balance and not a CC, so maybe the point you accuse him of not understanding is not applicable here? That being said I would not simply take a PP CS agents email as gospel, I personally would be on the phone politely pointing out that BF Labs appears to breaking PayPal ToS (and FTC regulations by refusing refunds). Keep going up the ladder on the phone it will likely yield the best results. |
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I like cake, can someone send me a cake please and thank you.
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Just got an email from BFL, asking if I want to order one of their unit (I sent them an email few months ago with some question regarding shipping, without placing an order), here it is: >We have a couple options for you, you can purchase the ASIC chips or ASIC miners themselves on our website. Please checkout our products page for more information: https://products.butterflylabs.com/>hi, aren't you still having very long waiting time? >Yes. we started shipping April 24 and are now shipping all product lines. You can follow shipping progress here: For Jody's Customer Service Blog, and more, please visit our new BFL Forums at <https://forums.butterflylabs.com/blogs/bfl_jody/> BFL appears to have: Stopped "firing customers" (not sure which retard thought this was a good long term business model anyways LOL), started refusing refunds, possible supply chain problems, started sending emails asking people to buy their product, a lot more refund requests. These all appear to be a direct 180 of the things that BFL has done in the last 9-14 months. I wonder why they have done such a stark about face recently, could it be that pre-orders and money are starting to dry up? |
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@cointerra when can we expect some details about the products? Atleast the technical details of the chips.?
That's a good question, why start a forum thread to discuss a product that has no public information other than it's an efficient, 28nm ASIC chip. When you start a forum thread it usually means you have something to tell the public, otherwise why bother? They are looking to round up investors customers, get the PR train rolling ASAP! And we will offer substantial discounts for pre orders http://www.cointerra.com/faq/ |
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http://business.ftc.gov/documents/bus02-business-guide-mail-and-telephone-order-merchandise-ruleWhy You Should Comply with the Rule
Merchants who violate the Rule can be sued by the FTC for injunctive relief, monetary civil penalties of up to $16,000 per violation (any time during the five years preceding the filing of the complaint), and consumer redress (any time during the three years preceding the filing of the complaint). When the mails are involved, the Postal Service also has authority to take action for problems such as non-delivery. State law enforcement agencies can take action for violating state consumer protection laws.
Apart from this, your failure to ship on time, or your failure to notify your customers promptly about delays and to obtain their consent to the delays, or your failure to make full and prompt refunds when your customers do not consent to delayed shipment, can adversely affect your business by discouraging repeat purchases. Accordingly, most businesses regard compliance with the Rule as simply good business practice. Hot damn! Sonny Vleisides must love flirting with diaster. I'm toying with the idea, if nobody beats me to it, of starting a thread to solicit sigs to petition the FTC to sue BFL. I'm sure they could use the $16,000 per violation in their coffers. Who would love to see such a thread? I have quoted the mail order rule a lot on this forum, if BFL is not in violation of the rule I will suck a goats dick! I have also pointed out several times that on BFL's on site they state as their shipping representation a time from of 2 months or MORE. I would personally consider this an indefinite delay and the FTC is quite clear on what a company must do when obtaining an indefinite delay consent from the customer. From the FTC mail order link above: What Later Notices Must Say If you cannot ship the merchandise by the definite revised shipment date included in your most recent delay option notice, before that date you must seek the consent of your customers to any further delay. You must do this by providing customers a "renewed" delay option notice. A renewed delay option notice is similar in many ways to the first delay option notice. One important difference: the customer’s silence may not be treated as a consent to delay. A renewed delay option notice must include: •a new definite revised shipment date or, if unknown, a statement that you are unable to provide any date; •a statement that, if the customer chooses not to wait, the customer can cancel the order immediately and obtain a full and prompt refund; •a statement that, unless you receive notice that the customer agrees to wait beyond the most recent definite revised shipment date and you have not shipped by then, the customer’s order automatically will be cancelled and a prompt refund will be provided; and •some means for the customer to inform you at your expense (e.g., by providing a postage prepaid reply card or toll-free telephone number) whether the customer agrees to the delay or is canceling the order. •the following information when you cannot provide a new definite revised shipping date: •the reason for the delay, and • a statement that, if the customer agrees to the indefinite delay, the customer may cancel the order any time until you ship.I think the bolded is pretty important because if BFL is asking customer to agree to an indefinite delay than they must tell the customer that they may cancel the order ANY TIME before you ship. They would obviously have to refund a cancelled order as well. Anyone that thinks BFL is not stomping all over the mail order rule is very wrong, anyone that believes BF Labs spin of pre-orders, production has started, all sales are final blah blah blah bull shit and thinks refusing is refunds is legit is fucking delusional. The only thing the FTC cares about is when the product shipped (and what representation the company made about shipping date). Now whether or not the FTC decides to pursue this is entirely another matter, they do have limited resources (so to speak) and they do not pursue every case that comes across their "desks". |
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Perhaps I missed it on the site (or more likely it's not on the site yet as sales don't appear to be open yet) but what is (or will be) corporate policy on pre-order refunds?
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Ok, so by 'well funded' they mean a $1.2m 'Angel investment' which for all intensive purposes will be spanked on the journey to tape-out. Also I doubt their own wages come cheap. So they are almost certainly a few mil shy of 28nm fab, therefore we can almost certainly assume another pre-order which will undoubtedly elicit a familiar response, but again is par for the course as they have no significant funding to manufacture otherwise.
Timewise it appears to be they will be head to head with Hashfast. Seed funding wise both Hashfast and Cointerra have tape out covered. Hashfast have 'partnered' with Uniquify that almost certainly means they have given away equity for use of time, staff and deskspace and split costs associated with tape out...
We’re expecting our price to be much lower than the current mining products for a given Gigahash performance. And we will offer substantial discounts for pre orders or large orders to help us with our production costs. http://www.cointerra.com/faq/It's right on their website, they will be taking pre-orders. I'm personally looking to be a customer not an investor that's called a customer so I will be passing (on their initial offering at least) |
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if you dont get one in the next 3-4 months it will never roi... already asicminer usb sticks are only 2x the price per Gh of jalapeno. Given that their new blades are coming out soon at probably a cheaper $/Gh than the usb sticks we will see a lot of people getting hardware with BFL in the latter part of this year that never ROIs.
Yet it worries no one that a device which is a year over it's proposed delivery time still has a better chance of ROI than any product ASICminer sell intentionally at such price point... I'm more forgiving to incompetence than greed. Technically BFL starting taking pre-orders (and full payment) over a year ago but since their initial proposed delivery was Oct/Nov 2012 they technically haven't hit the one year shipping delay mark, yet. I have no doubt a lot of customer will reach that special anniversary but you jumped the gun slightly ATM. |
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https://forums.butterflylabs.com/blogs/yes, i know there were less Little Singles ordered than pretty much anything else. The first month may only represent a hundred or so miners, but that is just the current consensus guess. If this rate could be maintained (an unlikely stretch) then a unit ordered today would be delivered by the end of the month. Not trying to be a shill here, but any time someone actually delivers substantial hashing power it is certainly news worthy. That is somewhere around 2.5 Th/s plug and play ready about to come online in the next few days. A whole 2.5TH/s, not even 2 original minirigs worth of hashing power and this is good new? |
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Josh just announced that all pre-orders will be shipped out within 29 days.
If true, definitivelly best news today. Lol, do you think Phinnaeus Gage is a teller of truth? Well Phinnaeus (I think) got that info from a post where Josh said he expected the backlog to be cleared by the end of August or something like that. EDIT: He says it here: https://forums.butterflylabs.com/pre-sales-questions/3611-buttefly-company-still-work-not-3.html#post44788From Josh: Yes, I still expect us to be through the back orders by the end of August. BFL delivery estimates are a moving target so it's not surprising you might have missed this one. This update moving the target again appears to have been penned about 5 days after he wrote the one about clearing the back log by end of August. I would expect sometime in the next couple of weeks we will hear how it will be end of October and so on (until the house of cards comes tumbling down!). https://forums.butterflylabs.com/bfl-forum-miscellaneous/3703-josh-its-time-update-bfl-asic-status.html#post45852I did talk to suppliers and ran some calculations. With the current order book up to today, I expect it to be filled by the end of September. I'm not sure what order number we'll get up to by the end of August, but we'll be pretty far into it by then. I'll probably have a better idea by the middle of this month. |
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I'm not sure if this is a scam or not. It could be that they are just in over their head but if this is a scam it is the most incompetent scam I have ever heard of.
The CEO's last scam was much better... Re: Butterfly Labs CEO 25 Million USD Mail Fraud — A Concise Summary of Evidence https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=110805.0 |
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