This is very likely not the thread for you...  Yet!

I agree that the terms on their website indicate they are asking people to agree to an indefinite delay (or shipping estimate if you prefer).  That is what you are saying isn't it?

In my opinion "2 months or more" is about as indefinite as you can get and that is what BFL made their customers agree to.

If I have read your statement correctly, then BFL must (according to the FTC) provide the following information to the customer AND get his consent.


•a statement that, if the customer agrees to the indefinite delay, the customer may cancel the order any time until you ship.

Read the entire rule, if a company sells a product they must provide a DEFINITIVE shipping date (if no is provided it defaults to 30 days), last I saw there site said 2 months or more.  This is very unlikely to be considered definitive.  It is not relevant what they say in the contract if they do not comply with regulations.  Simply making a customer agree to something that is against regulations will not relieve BFL of complying with those regulations.

I removed the word stock and it does not change the statement at all basically.

Your throwing out or chasing a red herring.  Let me quote two relevant sections of the FTC mail order rule.

Here the FTC states IMO quite clearly that a consumer has the right to cancel and order by exercising ANY option BEFORE the product ships and the company MUST provide a prompt refund. 

When You Must Cancel an Order

You must cancel an order and provide a prompt refund when:
•the customer exercises any option to cancel before you ship the merchandise;

This is a pretty blanket statement by the FTC and I don't see how BFL can refuse a customer a refund for any reason.

Next let's assume for the moment BFL sent out information and received every customers consent for an infinite delay.  According to the FTC one of the pieces of information that is required to be sent from BFL to the client is the following:

What Later Notices Must Say

If you cannot ship the merchandise by the definite revised shipment date included in your most recent delay option notice, before that date you must seek the consent of your customers to any further delay. You must do this by providing customers a "renewed" delay option notice. A renewed delay option notice is similar in many ways to the first delay option notice. One important difference: the customer’s silence may not be treated as a consent to delay.

A renewed delay option notice must include:
•a new definite revised shipment date or, if unknown, a statement that you are unable to provide any date;
•a statement that, if the customer chooses not to wait, the customer can cancel the order immediately and obtain a full and prompt refund;
•a statement that, unless you receive notice that the customer agrees to wait beyond the most recent definite revised shipment date and you have not shipped by then, the customer’s order automatically will be cancelled and a prompt refund will be provided; and
•some means for the customer to inform you at your expense (e.g., by providing a postage prepaid reply card or toll-free telephone number) whether the customer agrees to the delay or is canceling the order.
•the following information when you cannot provide a new definite revised shipping date:
•the reason for the delay, and
•a statement that, if the customer agrees to the indefinite delay, the customer may cancel the order any time until you ship.

http://business.ftc.gov/documents/bus02-business-guide-mail-and-telephone-order-merchandise-rule

Read the entire rule, if a company sells a product that is not in stock they must provide a DEFINITIVE shipping date (if no is provided it defaults to 30 days), last I saw there site said 2 months or more.  This is very unlikely to be considered definitive.  It is not relevant what they say in the contract if they do not comply with regulations.  Simply making a customer agree to something that is against regulations will not relieve BFL of complying with those regulations.

I pointed out both of those in my initial post and I don't see where you have made an argument that those two points don't apply.

Getting a customer to agree to something that is against federal regulations will not relieve BFL of complying with those regulations LDO.

When a company offers a product for sale that is not in stock they must provide a definitive shipping date, I doubt many people think 2 months OR more is definitive.

When the first delivery date is missed a new revised definitive delivery date must be given along with a reason for the delay.  They must also obtain the customers approval for the first delay and EACH delay after (which they must also supply a definitive date and reason for).  If they do not provide this info or obtain the customers consent they actually must refund the customer.

The company must also cancel an order and issue a refund if the customer exercises any option to cancel the order BEFORE the product ships.

In order for a sale to take place a person must pay for and receive a product (or service), until the customer receives his product (or it ships) a sale has not taken place and hence why it is called an order and not a sale yet, hence all sales are final in this situation is not applicable.   Typically All Sales are Final refers to once a customer receives the product that they are then not able to return the product for a refund (after the sale has taken place).

This is all my interpretation of what I have researched IANAL.

http://business.ftc.gov/documents/bus02-business-guide-mail-and-telephone-order-merchandise-rule


https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=250985.0


File a complaint with the FTC. 

I am not entirely sure if this is directed at me or not but, I don't need to lawyer up, I don't live in the same country BFL operates in and BFL doesn't and never will have any of my money.  I suspect there are some people at least talking to their lawyers and the FTC.

As far as everyone know how long it will take to ship, hogwash the BTC community is growing by the day and too many Noobs get suckered in, so a few of us try our best to keep the information out there. 

There are also people who don't understand their rights (even if they know ALL about BFL and have orders with them), so I am sharing with them stuff I have found that I feel is relevant and encouraging any customers that are asking for refunds and being denied them to do a little research and read the link I provided, if you wish to continue down the path with an FTC complaint or lawyer up they are free to do so.

Why exactly do you want us to stop discussing it?  Feel free to put me on ignore and ignore these types of threads and your problem is solved and we can carry on like adults.

Getting a customer to agree to something that is against federal regulations will not relieve BFL of complying with those regulations LDO.

When a company offers a product for sale that is not in stock they must provide a definitive shipping date, I doubt many people think 2 months OR more is definitive.

When the first delivery date is missed a new revised definitive delivery date must be given along with a reason for the delay.  They must also obtain the customers approval for the first delay and EACH delay after (which they must also supply a definitive date and reason for).  If they do not provide this info or obtain the customers consent they actually must refund the customer.

The company must also cancel an order and issue a refund if the customer exercises any option to cancel the order BEFORE the product ships.

In order for a sale to take place a person must pay for and receive a product (or service), until the customer receives his product (or it ships) a sale has not taken place and hence why it is called an order and not a sale yet, hence all sales are final in this situation is not applicable.   Typically All Sales are Final refers to once a customer receives the product that they are then not able to return the product for a refund (after the sale has taken place).

This is all my interpretation of what I have researched IANAL.

http://business.ftc.gov/documents/bus02-business-guide-mail-and-telephone-order-merchandise-rule

BFL is more likely a mail order business than a telemarketing business, however I will say from what I have read and understand BFL not honouring refund request is at least against FTC regulations, I am also quite sure there are tons of other consumer protection laws on the state and municipal level that deal with this stuff but its pretty clear to most rational people that you can not just take a consumers money and if you have yet to deliver the product you tell them to go pound salt and tell them we will deliver when we deliver.


This is the actual FTC link that talks about mail order business and delivery and refunding.  From the description there it certainly appears as though BFL falls in the mail order business.


http://business.ftc.gov/documents/bus02-business-guide-mail-and-telephone-order-merchandise-rule

Not 100% required but chances are pretty high IMO they are shipping to a municipality that has laws, regulations or codes.  It's on everything that plugs into the wall for a reason.

Do I need to have the UL Mark on my product in the United States? Is there a law stating that my product should have a UL Mark? Does our product require UL testing?


Manufacturers submit products to UL for testing and safety certification on a voluntary basis. There are no laws specifying that a UL Mark must be used. However, in the United States there are many municipalities that have laws, codes or regulations which require a product to be tested by a nationally recognized testing laboratory before it can be sold in their area. UL is the largest and oldest nationally recognized testing laboratory in the United States. UL does not, however, maintain a list of the jurisdictions having such regulations.


http://www.ul.com/global/eng/pages/corporate/contactus/faq/general/background/

It also appears as though BFL has shipped Jalapenos with no UL cert on the device OR the power brick.  Can this company do anything legitimately?

So I saw this posted by another member in another thread and noticed he claims the power brick in the picture was shipped to a US location with his Jalapeno. I also don't see a UL sticker/stamp on it.

Does this mean BFL is shipping Jalapeno's across the US with no UL certification?

BFL is in the mail order business not the telemarketing business.

Not to mention the fact that "all sales are final" is referring to a product ALREADY shipped (which btw is perfectly legal to offer no refund or exchange on DELIVERED product.

For US delivered jalapeno's?

Not trying to thread jack here but US-delivered power brick, am I missing the UL stamp, is it somewhere else on the brick or device?

Dude...

You and BFL may want us all to believe this but until a customers order physically ships it appears according to the FTC that the company must issue a prompt refund when the customer asks for a refund for ANY reason.

Just because their ToS is against FTC regulations doesn't mean it's OK to break those regulations because you put it in your ToS LDO.

(Bolded in mine)

When You Must Cancel an Order

You must cancel an order and provide a prompt refund when:
•the customer exercises any option to cancel before you ship the merchandise;
•the customer does not respond to your first notice of a definite revised shipment date of 30 days or less and you have not shipped the merchandise or received the customer’s consent to a further delay by the definite revised shipment date;
•the customer does not respond to your notice of a definite revised shipment date of more than 30 days (or your notice that you are unable to provide a definite revised shipment date) and you have not shipped the merchandise within 30 days of the original shipment date;
•the customer consents to a definite delay and you have not shipped or obtained the customer’s consent to any additional delay by the shipment time the customer consented to;
•you have not shipped or provided the required delay or renewed option notices on time; or
•you determine that you will never be able to ship the merchandise.


http://business.ftc.gov/documents/bus02-business-guide-mail-and-telephone-order-merchandise-rule

The way I read this BFL is clearly in violation of the FTC mail and telephone order merchandise rule (punishable by the FTC suing them for up to $16,000 per incident).


Your turn, please post some evidence of BFL's no refund policy being legitimate.

You and BFL may want us all to believe this but until a customers order physically ships it appears according to the FTC that the company must issue a prompt refund when the customer asks for a refund for ANY reason.

Just because their ToS is against FTC regulations doesn't mean it's OK to break those regulations because you put it in your ToS LDO.

(Bolded in mine)

When You Must Cancel an Order

You must cancel an order and provide a prompt refund when:
•the customer exercises any option to cancel before you ship the merchandise;
•the customer does not respond to your first notice of a definite revised shipment date of 30 days or less and you have not shipped the merchandise or received the customer’s consent to a further delay by the definite revised shipment date;
•the customer does not respond to your notice of a definite revised shipment date of more than 30 days (or your notice that you are unable to provide a definite revised shipment date) and you have not shipped the merchandise within 30 days of the original shipment date;
•the customer consents to a definite delay and you have not shipped or obtained the customer’s consent to any additional delay by the shipment time the customer consented to;
•you have not shipped or provided the required delay or renewed option notices on time; or
•you determine that you will never be able to ship the merchandise.


http://business.ftc.gov/documents/bus02-business-guide-mail-and-telephone-order-merchandise-rule

The way I read this BFL is clearly in violation of the FTC mail and telephone order merchandise rule (punishable by the FTC suing them for up to $16,000 per incident).

Feel free to continue to state misinformation as fact though, seems to be common with BFL nut huggers

The website has said that for a long time however from what I have seen they have always cancelled an order and refunded them when asked to (even sometimes when not asked to LOL), that is up until recently.

IMO BFL is playing a very dangerous game, time will tell though, I have my popcorn (and fortunately no skin in the BFL game!).

I asked for a refund today and this was the response i received :

 ________________________
Hi,

As stated on the order form, all sales are final. Unfortunately, we cannot give you a refund. We truly do appreciate your business.

Best Wishes,
Abbey
BF Labs, Inc.
 ___________________



 It was for a Jalapenos 5GH (no upgrade) ordered June 3 2013. (#100063809‏).


This is reportedly and email received from BFL by a customer who wanted a refund.

https://forums.butterflylabs.com/bfl-forum-miscellaneous/3521-bfl-doesnt-refund-anymore.html

The entire thread if it interest you.

There are others (I'm not that interested to dig them up tbh) but from what I have read recently this seems to be the trend (which could be a huge red flag and possibly against FTC regulations if I read them correctly).

Meh if they go down it will be lots of short term pain for a lot more long term gain IMO.  Disaster for a bunch of miners, ya probably, disaster for BTC, not a chance in hell!

Since they have stopped issuing refunds it certainly appears to me (IANAL) they are at least breaking FTC regulations.  It would seem that UNTIL the product is physically shipped a customer has the right to cancel their order (for ANY reason) and the company MUST issue a prompt refund. 

Below is quoted from the link at the FTC site (bolded is mine)

When You Must Cancel an Order

You must cancel an order and provide a prompt refund when:
•the customer exercises any option to cancel before you ship the merchandise;
•the customer does not respond to your first notice of a definite revised shipment date of 30 days or less and you have not shipped the merchandise or received the customer’s consent to a further delay by the definite revised shipment date;
•the customer does not respond to your notice of a definite revised shipment date of more than 30 days (or your notice that you are unable to provide a definite revised shipment date) and you have not shipped the merchandise within 30 days of the original shipment date;
•the customer consents to a definite delay and you have not shipped or obtained the customer’s consent to any additional delay by the shipment time the customer consented to;
•you have not shipped or provided the required delay or renewed option notices on time; or
•you determine that you will never be able to ship the merchandise.


http://business.ftc.gov/documents/bus02-business-guide-mail-and-telephone-order-merchandise-rule