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2261  Bitcoin / Hardware / Re: BFL announces 28nm 600GH/S blade for $4680 on: August 23, 2013, 01:15:42 AM
 Shocked Someone please, help Josh! Cheesy

They are beating him senseless with logic and funny comments on the refund matter!

Socks and shills, unite under one banner of Bullshit and shout down any sense of logic. Defend the motherland!

https://forums.butterflylabs.com/pre-sales-questions/3675-refund-policy-10.html
2262  Bitcoin / Hardware / Re: Official ASICMINER Hardware Information on: August 22, 2013, 03:06:24 PM
^Yes, keep items at their starting price forever and make ROI near end of time..
Has anyone ever made ROI on an AsicMinerUSB ?
I make ROI on every ASICMinerUSB cause I sell them on ebay.
LMAO, no kidding? You don't say?!

Someone take a snapshot of this post...too hilarious for words.
2263  Bitcoin / Hardware / Re: I'M INTERESTED IN BUTTERFLY MINERS, ANYONE RECIVED IT YET? on: August 22, 2013, 03:05:37 PM
hi guys, i'm interested in the new butterfly miners, but i can't find a miner that isn't a "preorder" so, anyone really received a miner? how much do you had to wait?
thanks
They are still shipping units from July of 2012.

Keep looking at another company. Do yourself that favor and continue looking at other options.
2264  Bitcoin / Hardware / Re: HashFast announces specs for new ASIC: 400GH/s on: August 22, 2013, 02:58:00 PM
It is a good thing they are still way above cost, cause the worth of such machines will drop like a stone.

Well Avalon charges $9 per chip (AFAIK someone correct me if I am wrong) and that is obviously inflated 1000% or more over silicon cost and that cost will sink like a stone.  So you could remove $2400 from the system by assumming the price of chips in bulk drops from $9 to $1 to remain competitive.  However my point was that even doing that looking at an Avalon, the balance of the system cost (PCB, heatsinks, assembly, DC to DC power supply, power distribution board, controller board, even mundane things like fans, power supply, and cases) isn't being marked up 1000%.  Excluding the cost of the chips you couldn't drop the cost on the rest of the system 90%.   So while the value (and price) of older chips will indeed fall like a stone the BOM (balance of materials) cost will subdue the price drops.

On a related topic this is why I believe those that think $1/GH complete miners are reasonable are just silly.  Still in full disclosure I own miners, shares, and pre-orders with multiple companies but not Avalon so I may just be biased.
I totally agree with you on this.

This is why I wrote in a few threads that companies should be looking into paralleling their designs...NOW....not later.

Eventually, the price will have to drop too sharply for them to be able to sell it. If this happens before they ship, they will fold. Companies need to be looking at what their business model looks like 5 or 6 months from now. Otherwise there will be alot of companies with designs that don't work with that eventuality.
2265  Bitcoin / Hardware / Re: {BFL} Why The Monarch Might Just Work on: August 22, 2013, 02:00:33 PM
Besides the first free ones they gave away, I hardly would say that anyone that preordered the first day won anything...

Some Singles (60gh/s) was shipped around 24-25 june 2013.
Diff was 19.34 MM
1 month after the diff was 31.26 MM

In 1 month a Single owner make some 5200 dollars...(and can make more extra putting this on Ebay...)

Ohh no...they won anything...nononono...

lol. While, they were promised a product in October, when the difficulty was orders of magnitude less. Not sure if there is an english barrier, or you're just a shill for BFL. Anyone that thinks these yahoos that invested hundreds of bitcoins into a product that was delayed longer than it takes to have a baby come to full term, is simply, stupid.
He's just a shill for BFL.
2266  Bitcoin / Hardware / Re: HashFast announces specs for new ASIC: 400GH/s on: August 22, 2013, 01:52:38 PM
But I agree, it's nice to see different designs popping out, we followed Bitfury's approach too for our ASIC and we're confident that the road to success is huge grids of small and cool chips.

$6250   700W       85GH/s      8.23W per GH   $73 per GH
$5600   350W      400GH/s      0.88W per GH   $14 per GH

Product who has for order?  I only paid $1500 for my B2 Avalon - $18/Gh/s.  Delivered In June.

Only a few dollars more expensive per Gh/s then HashFast. Clearly they're not charging anywhere near their actual mfg cost.
B1 Delivered in March.

It is a good thing they are still way above cost, cause the worth of such machines will drop like a stone.
2267  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Mining (Altcoins) / Re: Swedish ASIC miner company kncminer.com on: August 22, 2013, 01:27:26 PM
Yep still heard nothing from them.
So I guess main line cgminer support wont be happening ...
Already looking for a freebie, again, Kano?

(I am reading up on KNC. Impressive developments so far. Nothing to complain about as of yet.)
2268  Bitcoin / Hardware / Re: Press Release from BFL regarding the Monarch! on: August 22, 2013, 12:57:31 PM
 Wink

https://forums.butterflylabs.com/post-sales-customer-service/4456-why-huge-difference-between-singles-jallys-ship-date.html
 Huh
2269  Bitcoin / Hardware / Re: Press Release from BFL regarding the Monarch! on: August 22, 2013, 12:53:08 PM
 Cheesy



https://forums.butterflylabs.com/monarch-discussion/4463-i-have-dream.html
2270  Bitcoin / Hardware / Re: YES, you can get a REFUND from BFL on: August 22, 2013, 12:45:58 PM
@ k9

Could you add this to your PSA?

Do a paper filing with the DA here: http://da.jocogov.org/complaint-forms
2271  Bitcoin / Hardware / Re: Best MotherBoard for Butterfly Labs Monarch PCI card? on: August 22, 2013, 09:21:05 AM
Your Monarchs will need a very large home to "incubate" in,something like this MAY work,



Seeing as BFL will double the size & power consumption,as per usual.But,not to worry,you folks will have PLENTY of time to plan  Cheesy
Amateurs!
Simple overview: (pull out the crappy teslas and replace with double height bitcoin cards...in theory)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0LmzV87-b9M

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g1pM5WtAtV0



2272  Economy / Scam Accusations / Re: ANYONE TALKING POSITIVE ABOUT BFL..... on: August 22, 2013, 09:08:12 AM
This post is offensive to Cowboys.

No to these kind



 Cheesy Shocked Cheesy Shocked Cheesy Shocked
At BFL they wear caps, not cowboy hats!
2273  Economy / Scam Accusations / Re: ANYONE TALKING POSITIVE ABOUT BFL..... on: August 22, 2013, 09:05:05 AM


https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=278395.msg2974918#msg2974918
2274  Bitcoin / Hardware / Re: BFL 600GH "Monarch" already postponed to February! on: August 22, 2013, 08:55:35 AM
We discussed this a day ago:



https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=278395.msg2974918#msg2974918
2275  Economy / Scam Accusations / Re: BFL could be find $16,000 for each product the fail to ship on: August 22, 2013, 08:49:58 AM
From the FTC website:

http://business.ftc.gov/documents/bus02-business-guide-mail-and-telephone-order-merchandise-rule

This is a VERY interesting read!!

Some of the key points:

1) after ordering, BFL had 30 days to deliver our product. If they were not able to ship in that time frame, they were to notify all customers and ask if they wanted to maintain their order.

On that point, they did notify customers. A few months ago they sent mail to all customers and asked to log in butterflylabs.com to submit an answer as to whether they wanted to maintain the order or not.


A few months ago does not equal 30 days after preorders were not fulfilled.

Read the legalese. It does not say 30 days. It says 30 days or the time [the vendor] stated.

I guess one could argue that after sending the second and subsequent notices of delay, BFL interpreted customers' silence as automatic consent, when they should have automatically refunded. But any customer suing BFL for that would not be acting in good faith. Those who initiated refund requests on their own were refunded, no questions asked, and all those who stayed silent really wanted to remain in line.


The option for either party to cancel the order (and initiate a refund) is a continuing one as long as the seller has not shipped the product.
Silence means they have to issue an automatic refund.
2276  Bitcoin / Hardware / Re: YES, you can get a REFUND from BFL on: August 21, 2013, 11:09:12 PM
@ k9

I am not necessarily talking about you when you sell stuff...but...this applies to many out there.

If people sell anything for the profit motive and they fuck their customers...they are taking more than just cash.

If a buyer is misinformed when they are buying a miner from you and they spend 5k and they expect that miner to produce 12k over it's useful life. If they don't know that it never will (barring a miracle) do what it is intended to do. They will face "knock on" effects in their life.

We won't ever know if they took those funds from their kids future or if they expect a quick return so they can feed their family. You aren't just taking 5k, you are taking a misinformed buyer and turning them into a train wreck.

--------------------

There are alot of people out there who sell stuff like a connman. They know they are pulling a conn even when it is perfectly legal. They say things that aren't true, they exaggerate, they distort, they keep silent when someone clearly doesn't know something, they omit information and hide it.

When people do the sale, they get a rude awakening when they later find out your product doesn't do what it was purchased for.

That has consequences in their life. Sure some are rich and they will just shrug it off and remind themselves that they shouldn't spend money they can't afford to lose. There are others who will spend money they don't have (from CC for example, many do that on this forum).

If your fortunes are built on the destruction of others and misdirection....then people really are no better than BFL. They may not think so, but they aren't any better.

----------------------

If your ultimate game is the pure profit, then you can justify anything.

People sell other people in America as part of the sex trade. (Yes, even in America) They justify it because it is profitable.
People ship Chinese immigrants in containers because each Chinese citizen pays 2k to get here illegally. They share an oceanic container for the next 30 days with 400+ other people crammed into one container. Justified because it was profitable. (most do not make it to shore alive, many die, they have to put up with the corpse next to them on the long voyage.)

Everything has a starting seed. People without that seed do things differently from other people. Even Connmen were once innocent. At some point they saw things in "a new perspective" and slowly grew to be who they are until they got caught.

Even though I don't always live "the motto" perfectly, people reading this text should always treat others as if "they are you". If you wouldn't screw yourself for profit, then you shouldn't do it to the buyer.
2277  Bitcoin / Hardware / Re: YES, you can get a REFUND from BFL on: August 21, 2013, 10:40:13 PM

@PuertoLibre: Auctioning something on Ebay when you are done with it is not immoral.
I consider doing business and leaving someone on uneven footing to be immoral. That is the moral standard set forth in my mindset. I realize there are many others out there who are not sharing that standard.
What about those who want rather than need? Why is selling a beanie baby on eBay immoral?
If they are aware of the intent that the device is being bought for isn't going to produce what they want then the sale is immoral.

A beanie baby is a beanie baby. Unless it is damaged or not as described, it is conforming.

Someone who buys a miner with a very obvious expectation (and is advertised as such) of making bitcoins should know what they are getting themselves into and why you are selling it.

If you are offloading then you know it is a lemon. If the other person buying it is expecting profit equal to or superior to the price they paid, then they do not know you are selling them a lemon.

This is the type of stuff you learn as a kid. How not to screw others because it has ongoing consequences. In other words conducting a sale on good terms and with good faith. That seems to be a foreign concept to many dealing in Bitcoin...it appears.

It has no value other than how much a person wants to own it. A public auction is a fair method to dispose of things.
Again, it's right there in your own writing.

You said "dispose". What does that tell you about what your selling?

I had a laser printer that was large, loud, expensive to run and wanted nothing more to do with it. However, there was nothing wrong with it functionally. It 'lasered' and scanned and networked just fine, so to speak. Someone who needed a large laser printer/scanner for their office snatched it up for what I felt was more than it was worth. It was also for a lot less than professional printers can be has new. I don't think that was an immoral transaction, I just think someone else could get more value out of it than I could.
Your opinion is projected unto the object.

You named annoyances and cost to operate. It otherwise operates as the buyer intends to make use of it.

From the way you are writing you sold it off at a deep discount. Keep in mind that miners are being sold at above their online retail price. People expect the miners to produce bitcoins.

In ebay ads with miners in them, there are two polarities in listing types:

1) Either absolutely nothing is said about profitability or anything specific to that end. They just post they have it and end of story.

2) They talk about it's various features and how it is a money printing machine. But usually fail to say how much it is expected to print.

You know why people go to ebay to discharge their miners. Because they couldn't otherwise get a "too high a price" for it, if they tried to sell it among us "who know better" on BitCoinTalk.

They go to the corner of the internet where they barely have enough sense to rub two brain cells together.
The flipping of pre-orders is low. But bitcointalk.org is not the entire market anymore. As long as the auction starts at a fair price and full disclosure is made as to the state of the product, there is nothing inherently immoral about using Ebay. That is to say, it is possible to make a moral transaction of mining equipment using ebay.
Full disclosure often does not happen with miners.

People often seem to sell them but they don't do what they buyer has intended. Some are so disgraceful that they even say they will delay sending it for weeks after the miner has been bought because they are "busy mining with it". LMFAO.


Creating a marketing scheme to paint a rosy picture of a bleak scenario in order to move product at inflated prices is immoral.
"Passively" Auctioning something in the hopes that it will go for an absurd and non-useful price to the other person is immoral. (my standard may not be yours)

Whatever the reason, the sellers and distributors knew what they were doing.

They even defend their practices vehemently to this day. Shielding themselves under many pretenses that "the impossible" or a "miracle" might happen for their customers to get a useful intended purpose out of their resold miner....at too high a price.
Most of the blades were auctioned here. So I consider that selling into an informed (if not rational) market.
Well, there are also people buying BFL 600Gh/s blades. So not everyone is educated. We both know that much.

There is a caveat with the USB miners. Selling one or two as a novelty item is fine. Like numismatic coins that contain a little gold, they are a terrible investment, but are shiny and pretty. I bought a gold plated buffalo coin for far more than it was worth, because my daughter wanted one. Also, the USB sticks are a reasonable way to democratize the bitcoin network. Selling them at 2BTC was ludicrous, but I could see $40 or so being reasonable.
People made a small fortune from reselling them at ludicrous prices.

Resellers who were stuck with merchandise when the price was suddenly lowered were throughly looking for "a fast moving idiot" to sell it to at a high enough price to buy the new stock at the lower price point.
2278  Bitcoin / Hardware / Re: YES, you can get a REFUND from BFL on: August 21, 2013, 06:39:13 PM


@PuertoLibre: Auctioning something on Ebay when you are done with it is not immoral.
I consider doing business and leaving someone on uneven footing to be immoral. That is the moral standard set forth in my mindset. I realize there are many others out there who are not sharing that standard.

You know why people go to ebay to discharge their miners. Because they couldn't otherwise get a "too high a price" for it, if they tried to sell it among us "who know better" on BitCoinTalk.

They go to the corner of the internet where they barely have enough sense to rub two brain cells together.


Creating a marketing scheme to paint a rosy picture of a bleak scenario in order to move product at inflated prices is immoral.
"Passively" Auctioning something in the hopes that it will go for an absurd and non-useful price to the other person is immoral. (my standard may not be yours)


The reason ASICMiner was able to sell so many units at such a crazy price was because of the pent up demand for ASICs. This was due to Avalon and BFL being unable to deliver product to the marketplace. They could take orders, but they couldn't ship them in time to keep up with demand. ASICminer could and it was they who profited from it. I spent a small amount of time trying to convince folks that the USB sticks would not have a positive ROI, but it was swimming upstream against a fast current.
Whatever the reason, the sellers and distributors knew what they were doing.

They even defend their practices vehemently to this day. Shielding themselves under many pretenses that "the impossible" or a "miracle" might happen for their customers to get a useful intended purpose out of their resold miner....at too high a price.
2279  Bitcoin / Hardware / Re: YES, you can get a REFUND from BFL on: August 21, 2013, 06:12:46 PM

You just confused me, are you saying you disagree that "he didn't scam a soul", so that you agree that he DID scam?
I am saying, I believe he made a network full of scammers.

That is why he could end up with most of the profits and each distributor with their own portion of ill gotten gains.

They sold a product that didn't do it's ultimate intended purpose in an effective way.
2280  Bitcoin / Hardware / Re: YES, you can get a REFUND from BFL on: August 21, 2013, 06:11:07 PM
Alot of people on this forum think it is perfectly alright to mine the crap out of their miner and when it stops being useful...go to ebay and sell it to some retard for an enormous amount of money.

There is always some idiot who will. Then they come on here and claim "it is all good" what they just did.

There ain't a moral bone in their body.
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