Maybe now people will start to understand why ALL FULL fucking PAYMENT pre-orders are really really bad for most consumers and why the companies likes this business model (and why the want you to believe its the only way to get an ASIC made LNFAO).
You poor investomers took so much risk and what did Avalon risk, SFA IMO. Now once you poor investomers finally get your chips your profits will be 0 or quite possibly - but Avalon, with no risk makes a fucking killing either way LOL.
But hey I'd be willing to bet if Avalon sticks to the no pre-sales going forward that gen2 customers will appreciate you funding it all for them.
Wake up folks you have the goddamn POWER (money) stop supporting pre-orders, as a group with the power you can force these shady pricks to smarten up and be professionals. Well I guess that's probably to much to ask when a gold rush mentality exists.
We do appreciate the sacrifice made by buyers of Gen 1. I am just waiting for Yifu to send the memo that the Group Buyers want to hear so that the BFL hostages...err I mean customers....get scared and jump out the nearest window. |
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One of the reasons I am suspect of at least some of the group buy organizers and assemblers (i.e., TH) is that they have not been vocal at all on this subject - they remain completely silent. Why have they not all banned together to find answers weeks ago? None of it makes any sense unless they are involved or in the know somehow. They may already have the chips and are mining with them. TerraHash was originally supposed to ship the first orders between mid and late July, then they said August 15, now there is NO ETA.
They didn't plan to operate like a full-on scam where nothing would be delivered, it would just be delivered late and they assumed everything would quiet down once they were delivered even though the ROI was drastically reduced. In addition the first chip buyers who have their orders may have benefited as well by having the rest of the hashing power halted.
There may be members on this topic who are involved but playing good-cop/bad-cop.
Because while they sue Avalon, their customers will sue them. Not true, they could get their customers involved through class-action. But I wasn't even discussing a lawsuit, I am simply discussing the fact that they mentioned making no attempts at clarifying the cause for the delay, when the delay has been over a month now. When I see that someone isn't attempting to get answers I must assume they are in on it. Notice that only BKK has commented on this thread out of ALL the group buys and assemblers - they are MIA again. Puts on hat with label: <Agent of Choas> Alright, someone quickly open up new threads in an accusatory tone asking each and every Group Buyer when they are getting their refunds. I will go and prep the firing squad. |
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One of the reasons I am suspect of at least some of the group buy organizers and assemblers (i.e., TH) is that they have not been vocal at all on this subject - they remain completely silent. Why have they not all banned together to find answers weeks ago? None of it makes any sense unless they are involved or in the know somehow. They may already have the chips and are mining with them. TerraHash was originally supposed to ship the first orders between mid and late July, then they said August 15, now there is NO ETA.
They didn't plan to operate like a full-on scam where nothing would be delivered, it would just be delivered late and they assumed everything would quiet down once they were delivered even though the ROI was drastically reduced. In addition the first chip buyers who have their orders may have benefited as well by having the rest of the hashing power halted.
There may be members on this topic who are involved but playing good-cop/bad-cop.
Because while they sue Avalon, their customers will sue them. |
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If he doesn't come up with some sort of offering to compensate us, I cant see how he can show his face in public again.
He needs to restore his credibility, and fast. Even refunding all our money without the chips wont keep the wolf from the door.
If I get my chips NOW, and 50% refund and be first in line for free next gen ASICs, then I might be a bit happier.
If you are a bought as a group you may want to pass on that bounty to your customers. |
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Once they "clear" the customs and are finally delivered, it will be interesting to see what week are these chips made in.
The writing on the chips will identify this.
Good question. People ought to do this with BFL as well. |
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... So I was out shopping for food ... and on the way home I started thinking about this 'customs' comment and realised there must be some tracking numbers to prove it true (or false) ... then I read the thread now again (10 more pages  ) and find it has been brought up. But let me put it to you directly: Firstly, the chips are being shipped from who to who? Am I incorrect to say that the only customs involved is shipping the chips from Avalon to the customer? Correct or false? False, Customs doesn't ship, they only clear the package and charge import/export duty and taxes. Read again - I said "involved is shipping" (OK was supposed to be "in" not "is" but that doesn't matter) TSMC -> Avalon -> Customs -> Group Buy Host -> Individual Customers.
It is also a bad idea to share the tracking number because....as has been evident before Kano. Someone out there has been doing social engineering to steal Avalons...so a couple multiples of "ten thousand(s)" of chips would make a great DHL target.
No I mean give the customers their own damn tracking numbers They can affirm or deny the customs claim ... If that is correct, then simply give the shipping number to ANY customer and they can verify the truth of all this - since their shipping will show it stuck in customs this past week ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... Again, bad idea! Anyone of those customers can call DHL and do the same thing that was done to multiple DHL customers of Avalon. (the packages were re-routed after someone impersonated a known customer) Again, not a bad idea. I really wonder why it would be a bad idea to give customers their OWN shipping numbers. You sound like Avalon batch #1 ........ Isn't that your job - mail boy? Is there anything else you actually do for all the money you get paid by your customers? ... other than spend it in Vegas ...
Kano, don't lie, we know you can't afford food. Let alone speculating on vegas. Not any more  Don't be [too] stupid about this Kano. We are talking about publicly posting information. Not the individuals getting their own tracking number. Nice try once you realized the fuck up on your end though. |
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I am happy to hear the news from Yifu. I feel the tone of this community has a pretty poor attitude towards the engineers that make it all possible, and the people that work hard creating companies doing what they love (which is not sitting around making sure mining rigs have power). I know BFL took a really long time to develop their product, but Avalon has their product developed.
All this talk about making roi... maybe you should power them with an excersice bike instead of paying for overpriced middle America electricity fees. You would have enough time to calm down and make some happy molecules in your brains (these are important). Also if you plan on making real money(over 50k/yr min) by mining you might want to start looking for a real job again, I mine to support the bitcoin currency and to generate a littlte bit of it for myself, I also work 2 jobs and create electronics as a revenue generating hobby.
You must have understood the risk involved when you spent the money on chips... hell their wasn't even a working board design (other than avalons) when I spent my money. You must have seen what went down with BFL before you spent money on pre order chips from Avalon... Im glad I talked my buddy out of dropping $20k on boards from terrahash (dropped $2k instead, put 15k in a hedge and a little liquid). Did you not understand the rise in difficulty that was going to occur? I also didn't put all my eggs in one basket... if you are looking at bitcoin mining hardware as an investment then you should really diversify so you don't get burned.
I just feel the attitude in this room is a bit dark and could use some light. Especially seeing how none of this technology even existed a year ago and you are all complaining how screwed you are to not have the latest and greatest toys.
Don't give us your holier-than-thou BS - "I don't care if I make profit, I am in this for the betterment of the bitcoin network". Total crap. The betterment of the bitcoin network results from making profit - profit is what is guaranteeing efficiency and reliability in the network. Your view actually prevents healthy growth of the network, because you aren't demanding that its infrastructure improve. The rise in difficulty IS understood, which is why getting these products on time is necessary. When we don't get the products on time, that hurts Bitcoin, not just us because good BTC investment money went after bad. You obviously do not understand economics in general, and definitely don't understand how it applies to the growth of Bitcoin. It is also a bad idea to share the tracking number because....as has been evident before Kano. Someone out there has been doing social engineering to steal Avalons...so a couple multiples of "ten thousand(s)" of chips would make a great DHL target.
Taking a non-descript screen cap of the claimed customs hold is enough as long as certain critical elements are blurred out so the social engineering can't take place.
Keep in mind they now have Yifu and the teams personal info, so pretending to be them is possible. Especially if there is a PDF out in the wild with all the team members personal addresses and details. What??? They can't give the tracking numbers to those who they are shipping to? Yet another dumb statement from the sympathizers. On another note, we don't know whether this "We have been targeted" story is even true, this could be just a emotional diversion to make us feel sorry for the Avalon team and cushion the blow. Vgil, are you stupid or didn't you read what I wrote carefully? You want them to give out tracking numbers so anyone with some skill can re-route the package while still in transit? Are you stupid or what? You're argument here makes no sense. If these chips are being shipped to specific people then give those specific people their specific tracking number. I do not see the harm in that. The likely-hood of someone stumbling upon a tracking number is minute and even if they did they would have to travel to the destination of delivery and then hope they got to the package before the person it was shipped to. Apparently you don't know what has happened in that past with certain Avalon deliveries. Your thinking of the situation is showing me that much. Do a search on the forum for "Avalon DHL rerouted" I forget who were the various affected complainers as it happened a long while ago: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=163795.0 |
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You want them to give out tracking numbers so anyone with some skill can re-route the package while still in transit? Are you stupid or what?
Why we don't send forum trusted member to verify that? Or maybe one of the big group buyers? Sounds reasonable to me. But not to anyone else. If people think they are screwed because of the delay, imagine the tagline from Yifu that reads: "We are investigating someone who called DHL to have a certain Group Buys' order rerouted to an alternate destination." That would be a clusterfuck of epic proportions. |
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I am happy to hear the news from Yifu. I feel the tone of this community has a pretty poor attitude towards the engineers that make it all possible, and the people that work hard creating companies doing what they love (which is not sitting around making sure mining rigs have power). I know BFL took a really long time to develop their product, but Avalon has their product developed.
All this talk about making roi... maybe you should power them with an excersice bike instead of paying for overpriced middle America electricity fees. You would have enough time to calm down and make some happy molecules in your brains (these are important). Also if you plan on making real money(over 50k/yr min) by mining you might want to start looking for a real job again, I mine to support the bitcoin currency and to generate a littlte bit of it for myself, I also work 2 jobs and create electronics as a revenue generating hobby.
You must have understood the risk involved when you spent the money on chips... hell their wasn't even a working board design (other than avalons) when I spent my money. You must have seen what went down with BFL before you spent money on pre order chips from Avalon... Im glad I talked my buddy out of dropping $20k on boards from terrahash (dropped $2k instead, put 15k in a hedge and a little liquid). Did you not understand the rise in difficulty that was going to occur? I also didn't put all my eggs in one basket... if you are looking at bitcoin mining hardware as an investment then you should really diversify so you don't get burned.
I just feel the attitude in this room is a bit dark and could use some light. Especially seeing how none of this technology even existed a year ago and you are all complaining how screwed you are to not have the latest and greatest toys.
Don't give us your holier-than-thou BS - "I don't care if I make profit, I am in this for the betterment of the bitcoin network". Total crap. The betterment of the bitcoin network results from making profit - profit is what is guaranteeing efficiency and reliability in the network. Your view actually prevents healthy growth of the network, because you aren't demanding that its infrastructure improve. The rise in difficulty IS understood, which is why getting these products on time is necessary. When we don't get the products on time, that hurts Bitcoin, not just us because good BTC investment money went after bad. You obviously do not understand economics in general, and definitely don't understand how it applies to the growth of Bitcoin. It is also a bad idea to share the tracking number because....as has been evident before Kano. Someone out there has been doing social engineering to steal Avalons...so a couple multiples of "ten thousand(s)" of chips would make a great DHL target.
Taking a non-descript screen cap of the claimed customs hold is enough as long as certain critical elements are blurred out so the social engineering can't take place.
Keep in mind they now have Yifu and the teams personal info, so pretending to be them is possible. Especially if there is a PDF out in the wild with all the team members personal addresses and details. What??? They can't give the tracking numbers to those who they are shipping to? Yet another dumb statement from the sympathizers. On another note, we don't know whether this "We have been targeted" story is even true, this could be just a emotional diversion to make us feel sorry for the Avalon team and cushion the blow. Vgil, are you stupid or didn't you read what I wrote carefully? You want them to give out tracking numbers so anyone with some skill can re-route the package while still in transit? Are you stupid or what? |
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The degree to which new companies these days are vetted, visited & generally doubted is quite extreme. Nobody should buy from Avalon (if ever again) without laying eyes on their lab & doing a meet & greet.
Being first to market matters for little in the IT world, just ask Netscape. I wish the same fate for Bitsyncom/Avalon
Netscape? You mean the company that designed the ancestor to firefox and is now among one of the largest browsers in current use around the world? Didn't they change their name to Mozilla or they open sourced the software and kept developing it. |
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You know how it is - you've been on a long plane flight - you've been drinking free booze all flight in first class - you get back in front of your computer you've not been near for weeks due to partying, whoring and boozing in Vegas, and it's like "Hmm PMs and emails while I've been away ... oh well, guess I better say something before I pass out so I can ignore that crap for another week ..." Wakes up the next morning ... oh crap I said "tomorrow" in the post ... oh well no one will notice anything different if I do nothing for a few days, they're used to that from me, and I am only a PR guy, not like I know anything about hardware or software and have control over anything except delaying deliveries ... ... ... don't you got better things to do like writing code mr. software engineer than waste time with some first-class-riding booze-drinking "pr guy" like me? anyhow, update is live on main page. http://avalon-asics.comSo I was out shopping for food ... and on the way home I started thinking about this 'customs' comment and realised there must be some tracking numbers to prove it true (or false) ... then I read the thread now again (10 more pages ) and find it has been brought up. But let me put it to you directly: Firstly, the chips are being shipped from who to who? Am I incorrect to say that the only customs involved is shipping the chips from Avalon to the customer? Correct or false? False, Customs doesn't ship, they only clear the package and charge import/export duty and taxes. TSMC -> Avalon -> Customs -> Group Buy Host -> Individual Customers. It is also a bad idea to share the tracking number because....as has been evident before Kano. Someone out there has been doing social engineering to steal Avalons...so a couple multiples of "ten thousand(s)" of chips would make a great DHL target. Taking a non-descript screen cap of the claimed customs hold is enough as long as certain critical elements are blurred out so the social engineering can't take place. Keep in mind they now have Yifu and the teams personal info, so pretending to be them is possible. Especially if there is a PDF out in the wild with all the team members personal addresses and details. If that is correct, then simply give the shipping number to ANY customer and they can verify the truth of all this - since their shipping will show it stuck in customs this past week ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... Again, bad idea! Anyone of those customers can call DHL and do the same thing that was done to multiple DHL customers of Avalon. (the packages were re-routed after someone impersonated a known customer) If you are shipping chips from somewhere else to China - I ask why? TMSC made them outside China? Then what was the whole point of saying TMSC was in China and you were close to them? As someone pointed out. TSMC has fabs in different places. But it is well worth asking that question and getting a definitive answer. But even if they are shipping to China - give us one of your shipping numbers and it will show your chips stuck in customs for the past week ... ... ... ... Bad idea. We also do not know if the Fab would be comfortable re-routing completed chips to some place other than what the contract specifies. I assume there has to be paperwork that needs to show they actually delivered the chips. (Hence the delivery to China) ... and lastly ... why are they stuck in customs. Good question. Isn't that your job - mail boy? Is there anything else you actually do for all the money you get paid by your customers? ... other than spend it in Vegas ...
Kano, don't lie, we know you can't afford food. Let alone speculating on vegas. |
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and what the fuck where is Steamboat, Sebastian and Zefir who enticed and solicited or whore us into their group buy, these fuckers already made a good profits, we the one in the group buy are the ones who suffers. Where are there?? can we get a REFUND from our group buy. They are keeping very quiet When they need us they will show up their face. Stay Clear from these guys in their future group buy. NO MORE GROUP BUY.
Crap, the crowd is turning into a total mob. Don't turn your pitchforks against the Group Buy organizers. Or at the very least give me a toe from the dismembered. Hmm Why we did not take any info from group buy organizer on their thread ? After taking a commission also take responsibility. In contrast to the organizers each day we lose profits.It seems that we have no support from Steamboat Sebastian and Zephyr who tell us to sit quietly and wait. Their stories of the calling non-stop to Yifu sound the same as an excuse from Bitsyncom. Well, you are right. They did organize the group buy. So it is their responsibility to take care of the problems. That is why they got a cut for many thousands of chips. Every 10 or so chips they got 1 BTC. Now it's time for them to work through the problems, that is why they got paid. |
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In either case, people can still make it out of the hen house like a fox. Simply rub two brain cells together and take a minor cut.
A) Resell your chips on a soon to be discount market, (lose a little, then reinvest in whatever company you choose)
B) Make the miners as most of you have paid for it already. Then resell a completed miner for a profit to the community. If you are lucky, you can turn lemons into lemonade.
C) Pool your unwanted chips together in a Group Sell and look for a sucker on Ebay/Alibaba. (the greater fool)
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People should keep their lawsuits etc out of this thread, and just have it serve the purpose of educating people about the pitfalls of dealing with Avalon again.
If people stop buying their products, they'll quickly learn what needs to be done to appease the community.
I think the real lesson is that many in the BTC community have a herd mentality. They don't judge situations very well and they throw money at things in the hopes that it will turn out well. It has become evident that people who bought gen 1 chips @ ~.10 BTC~ weren't thinking about the long term profitability. Avalon is 4 to 5 weeks delayed and suddenly everyone realizes that they won't make ROI? --------------------  You tell me, what is wrong with this picture?  Did they plan to get the chips, turn them into miners within a week or two, then turn them on for 3 extra weeks after that? Sorry, but this is ridiculous! It sounds like even if they got it on time they still would have had only a short time to make ROI. Ridiculously short amount of time. It sounds like poor planning. |
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Nobody ever sold any ROI !
The peeps who got Avalon Batch 1, got a nice ROI i think.. Yes, we did. And we aren't going to invest in technology that was soon to be outdated by gen 2. |
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Nobody ever sold any ROI !
That makes no sense. Just was a quote to the comment: I demand compensation for late devices! Price was determinated by 1 month ROI. Noone ever made promises about any return of investment especially in bitcoinbusiness.. Speaking of 1 month, what should the current price of an Avalon (110nm)chip be these days to make ROI? |
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@ Unacceptable
Whatever the companies state for their target timeline:
If Avalon, then multiply by 1.5x to 2x. I think this has been proven more than once now. Expect High performance and low efficiency.
If BFL, then use exponential curves. Whatever you get, (if you get it), be happy.
If AM, then use 0.6x whatever they claim. Expect low performance and price gouging.
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Ok someone already called it last night, the (drumroll please) "stuck in customs" excuse.
Jet lag guy had over 24 hours to think of a better reason than that, is that the best he could do?
I called it last night, LOL. I don't doubt the Avalon guys. I just doubt the customs guy. He will likely make announcements on the chips being stuck @ customs. Hence the multi-week delay.
Then he will make an announcement that their gen2 products are in the prototyping phase.
They crystal ball knows all! Oh Wise & Powerful PuertoLibre,who will be the one to truely give us peons ASIC's    In the next three months, expect various competitors to Avalon to crap out and delay their deliveries. Some may even fail and take their customers with them. The new name of the game is non-preorder purchasing. Stability and delivery. ===================== BFL is fucked by a massive pre-order backlog. Who knows if they will be able to dig themselves out or not. BFL might be able to sell Gen 2 if they are working on it (I believe it probably is in the works). But to hell if anyone will ever buy anything from them again. Avalon has to only finish delivering Batch 3 and their million+ chips. A relatively easy state of affairs compared to BFL. They will likely lower the price of their gen 1 chips in October if not sooner. Intro of Gen 2 will probably be slated for November. With Gen 3 probably being a complete from the ground up redesign with Gen 4 being an additional die shrink. (probably 40-35nm) ASICMiner needs new technology to keep up with these two (currently @ 130nm). I don't have a clue if they have a plan in place or not. They can't keep gouging in the face of this growing technology race. Their biggest risk is that they took in a shitload of profit but no one knows if they have a solid plan to evolve into gen 2. Expect the "mother-of-all tumbles" to their stocks coming in October 2013. I suspect many share holders will begin liquidating their ownership in order to invest in "newer technologies"® which they hope will net them more profit than keeping AM shares. As the acceleration of shares being sold takes off, likely there will be a shortage of buyers. With massive shorting in AM shares just to get out in time. ----------------------------- The crystal ball says the players behind bitcoin hardware will be experiencing lots of volatile situations and race conditions which may make even healthy companies shut their doors for good. It may not be about who is best (technology wise) but who can avert a disaster at each turn. |
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Wow, this is the worst PR management ever. Shit is flying everywhere and shit barely gets explained properly, I'm glad they are not dealing with pre-order crap after these chips but I'm VERY wary of buying another Avalon product right now.
Welcome to BFL industries. Oh wait... |
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