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2441  Bitcoin / Hardware / Re: YES, you can get a REFUND from BFL on: August 05, 2013, 01:23:25 PM
Quote from: Lohoris on August 05, 2013, 07:56:29 AM
Quote from: Stack on August 05, 2013, 02:47:09 AM
but these days nobody who has bitcoin would send it to BFL
You are overestimating people.

Their paypal account should be shut down, sure, but once we manage to do that, there will be full of retards paying them bitcoins.
It's the same kind of people who still think they will deliver.
Retards will retard will retard, there's not much you can do, besides sterilising them.

Sterilize them financially?
2442  Bitcoin / Hardware / Re: YES, you can get a REFUND from BFL on: August 04, 2013, 04:54:14 PM
Quote from: Lohoris on August 04, 2013, 02:04:44 PM
Quote from: codesuela on August 04, 2013, 01:46:04 PM
I can't help but think that the people who ordered there are somewhat deserving of getting scammed, however I've personally been blinded by greed in the past and blaming the victim (BFL customers) is like blaming an old lady for falling for a 419. Oh wait wasn't that the reason why the BFL head fraudster (josh or something?) was indicted for (peddling a lotto service to old ladies and never ever performing the paid for service)?
Sounds familiar?
I can only say it again: BFL is a scam and even if it is not (which I think is very unlikely) it's a company undeserving of your money and the only reason they are still around is because in Bitcoinland the tolerance for bullshit is unhealthily high.
Old ladies are... old.
Most people here have no such excuse.
Every one of them is to blame for the future scams the scammers will do, since they de facto encouraged him, and financed him, willingly.

?Lucky? for us, BFL is using the principles of Evolution.

Taking out the weak gullible out of the equation, financially.

Even if they get their miner in lets say..."two weeks" (14 months or more)

Then, they really won't be using it as anything more than a paper weight. The expiration (@ the current price points) on these Gen 1 units are almost over. September is the last month worth waiting on these to ship. D-Day has come.
2443  Bitcoin / Hardware / Re: YES, you can get a REFUND from BFL on: August 04, 2013, 04:44:45 PM
Quote from: TradeFortress on August 04, 2013, 06:11:02 AM
Get your money from BFL before they declare bankruptcy.
You mean like the City of Detroit just recently did to escape their obligations?

Yikes, lets not give them any ideas.
2444  Bitcoin / Hardware / Re: YES, you can get a REFUND from BFL on: August 04, 2013, 04:31:53 PM
Quote from: vcsmith on August 03, 2013, 04:01:18 AM
Quote from: investr on August 03, 2013, 03:31:24 AM
Please share your emails + language in a public gist.

This was my e-mail to fraud@paypal.com :

Quote
Hi,

I used PayPal to place a pre-order with Butterfly Labs on xx-xx-xx for $xxx.xx.
   
This order has still not been filled.  

I politely requested a refund on xx-xx-xx and was declined on xx-xx-xx.

Today I filed Dispute #PP-xxx-xxx-xxx-xxx.  This dispute was closed for being outside the 45-day window.  

The seller has violated your terms of service which clearly state that the seller "Guarantees shipment within 20 days from the date of purchase".

The seller is continuing to accept pre-orders for a product that they can not ship within any reasonable amount of time. In fact, they do not even pretend to be honoring your 20-day limit.

I have been a PayPal customer for x years.  While I realize that this payment is beyond the 45-day limit, I believe PayPal should honor my request for a refund as the seller is still using PayPal to receive pre-order payments in a manner that clearly violates your terms of service.  

Many people may be harmed financially by this seller if PayPal doesn't step in.

Regards,

Me
Wow, that is one very well crafted email. Re-posted in case anyone needs a template.
2445  Bitcoin / Hardware / Re: YES, you can get a REFUND from BFL on: August 04, 2013, 04:23:40 PM
Quote from: vcsmith on August 02, 2013, 08:19:39 PM
FWIW, there was one thing in this ordeal that really rubbed me the wrong way...

When Bruce from BFL called, he made the "under review" status sound like a punishment for my complaining to PayPal. He seemed surprised that I didn't care about being taken out of the queue. I think that was the only card they had.

Again, don't take this lying down. If you want your money back, take it.
2446  Bitcoin / Hardware / Re: YES, you can get a REFUND from BFL on: August 04, 2013, 04:20:51 PM
Quote from: GoodStuff on August 02, 2013, 07:52:13 PM
This thread should be stickied.  Smiley
Yes, right next to the one for bASIC.

I sense, this is going down that road in a hurry.

Everyone, everyone, everything is alright. DON'T PANIC.

<Quietly makes way to the refund window while everyone is distracted.>

You know thats what shills are thinking when they post! haha
2447  Bitcoin / Hardware / Re: YES, you can get a REFUND from BFL on: August 04, 2013, 04:15:44 PM
Quote from: tom99 on August 02, 2013, 06:52:11 PM
 Did you tell Paypal that alot of Paypal buyers want refund from BFL?


ps: shipping thing get nowhere and its getting worse day by day.
It's a test to see if hapless customers ever complain.

It appears that you can keep someone waiting for 14 months with very little in the way of expectations in them getting their money or their product. It is an amazing social experiment.
2448  Bitcoin / Hardware / Re: BFL refund through Paypal claim on: August 04, 2013, 04:11:33 PM
Quote from: PuertoLibre on July 13, 2013, 03:20:03 PM
Quote from: trichome on July 11, 2013, 01:27:59 PM
got my money back through paypal refund.  Cheesy
You bastard....!

Just kidding, congrats on exercising your rights to...get your money back. <shrug?>

=================

Anyone else interested in getting your money back after BFL refuses?

Go here: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=250985.60

Quote from: PuertoLibre on July 13, 2013, 07:22:49 AM
A Special Thanks To Ryan Downs For The Following Upper Management
Phone Numbers.
1-408-967-5033 (TOLL NUMBER) Michael Oldenburg, HE WANTS TO HEAR YOURCOMPLAINTS!
1-408-376-7514 (TOLL FAX Number) Ryan Downs, Senior Vice PresidentOperations, PayPal, Inc. and eBay Inc.
1-402-935-2050 (Toll Number)
1-888-215-5506 (Toll Free Number)
1-888-221-1161 (Toll Free Number)
1-408-376-7400 (Toll Number)
1-408-376-7514 (Toll Fax Number) PayPal, San Jose, General Fax #1-650-864-8000 (Toll Number)
1-402-935-2284 (Toll Number -- Banking and Check Issues)
1-402-935-2212 (Toll Number -- ACH Processing & Check Services)
1-402-935-2255 (Toll Number -- Account Review Department)
1-402-935-2257 (Toll Number -- Account Review Department)
1-402-935-2223 (Toll Number -- PayPal Compliance)
1-402-935-2250 (Toll Number -- PayPal Compliance)
1-402-935-2000 (Toll Number -- Customer Service Department)
1-402-935-2007 (Toll Number -- Customer Service Department)
1-402-935-5181 (Toll Number -- Debit Card Services)
1-402-935-2116 (Toll Number -- Escalations Department)
1-402-935-2129 (Toll Number -- Escalations Department)
1-402-935-2238 (Toll Number -- Management, Escalations Department)
1-402-935-2239 (Toll Number -- Fraud Prevention Department)
1-402-935-2251 (Toll Number -- Manager, Resolutions Department)
1-650-251-1101 (Toll FAX Number -- Never Fax w/o a Case Number!)
1-408-376-7514 (Toll FAX Number -- Never Fax w/o a Case Number!)
1-408-967-1005 (Toll Number -- Amanda Pires, PayPal Media Relations)
1-402-537-5755 (Toll FAX Number -- PayPal Chargeback Department)
1-402-938-2337 (Toll FAX Number -- Compliance Department)
1-303-395-2802 (Toll FAX Number -- Compliance Department)
1-402-952-8691 (Thomas, PayPal Executive Dying to Receive Your Call)
1-402-935-2238 (Tiffany Zaporowski, Strategic Risk Operations)
1-402-935-2116 (Elizabeth Morey, Supervisor, Executive Escalations)
1-402-952-8691 (Thomas, Senior Agent, Dying to Receive Your Call)
1-402-935-2172 (Adam Braasch, Senior Agent)
1-402-952-8902 (Gabriel, Agent, Executive Escalations)
1-402-935-2268 (Beth Beutler, Senior Agent)
1-402-935-5146 (Leslie Byrne, Senior Agent)
1-402-935-2399 (Janyce Erikson, Senior Agent)
1-402-935-5145 (Melody Fry, Senior Agent)
1-402-935-2174 (Jackie Hart, Senior Agent)
1-402-935-2229 (Michael Lazure, Senior Agent) *ACH/Wire Expert*
1-402-935-5163 (Rick Martin, Senior Agent)
1-402-935-5073 (Stephanie Mikovec, Senior Agent)
1-402-935-2157 (Megan Moore, Senior Agent) *WORKS WEEKENDS*
1-402-935-3533 (Peggy Pattavina, Senior Agent)
1-402-935-2331 (Tara Stevens, Senior Agent)
1-402-938-3532 (Megan Wetzel, Senior Agent)   
(402)935-2114   Kay P. ACH / Check Services       
(402)935-2212   ACH Processing Main Line ACH / Check Services       
(402)935-2284   cindy ACH / Check Services     Processing / Bank Only    
(402)935-2295   Chuck ACH / Check Services     Processing Manager    
(402)935-2255   Jasmine Account Review       
(402)935-2256   Jamie Account Review       
(402)935-2257   Jamie Account Review       
(402)935-2328   Chris Account Review       
(402)935-2333   Luke Account Review       
(402)935-2114   Kay P. ACH / Check Services       
(402)935-2212   ACH Processing Main Line ACH / Check Services       
(402)935-2284   cindy ACH / Check Services     Processing / Bank Only    
(402)935-2295   Chuck ACH / Check Services     Processing Manager    
(402)935-2223   Sheryl AUP Compliance       
(402)935-2250   Katrina AUP Compliance       
(402)935-2275   Lisa AUP Compliance       
(402)935-2332   Julie Gonzales AUP Compliance       
(402)935-5140   Alahandre Elise(?) AUP Compliance       
(402)935-2029   Todd Business Development       
(402)935-5126   Shane Business Development     Schedule: 8:30~5PM M-F    
(402)935-5197   Ken Holston Business Development     Business Management & Account Management    
(402)935-2000   Call Center Inbound Call Center       
(402)935-2007   Call Center Inbound Line Call Center       
(402)935-2012   Call Center Inbound Call Center       
(402)935-2011   Call Center Inbound Call Center       
(402)935-2014   Call Center Inbound Call Center       
(402)935-2017   Call Center Inbound: Debit Cards Call Center       
(402)935-2019   Call Center Inbound Call Center       
(402)935-2021   Call Center Inbound Call Center       
(402)935-2022   Call Center Inbound Call Center       
(402)935-2023   Call Center Inbound Call Center       
(402)935-2024   Call Center Inbound Call Center       
(402)935-2025   Call Center Inbound Call Center       
(402)935-2030   Call Center Inbound Call Center       
(402)935-2050   Call Center Inbound Call Center       
(402)935-2053   Call Center Inbound: Premier Services Call Center       
(402)935-2057   Call Center Inbound Call Center       
(402)935-2065   Call Center Inbound Call Center       
(402)935-2079   Call Center Inbound Call Center       
(402)935-2080   Call Center Inbound Call Center       
(402)935-2081   Call Center Inbound Call Center       
(402)935-2082   Premier Service Line Call Center       
(402)935-2084   Call Center Inbound Call Center       
(402)935-2085   Call Center Inbound Call Center       
(402)935-2092   Call Center Inbound Call Center       
(402)935-2100   Call Center Inbound Call Center     Premier Services Line    
(402)935-2106   Call Center Inbound Call Center     Premier Services Line    
(402)935-2107   Call Center Inbound Call Center       
(402)935-2124   Call Center Inbound Call Center       
(402)935-2148   Call Center Inbound Call Center       
(402)935-2166   Call Center Inbound Call Center       
(402)935-2194   Call Center Inbound Call Center       
(402)935-2233   Call Center Inbound Call Center       
(402)935-2300   Call Center Inbound Call Center       
(402)935-2323   Call Center Inbound Call Center       
(402)935-5119   Call Center Inbound Call Center       
(402)935-2165   Jessica Card Services       
(402)935-2396   Tamara Spurlock Card Services       
(402)935-5181   Lisa Weaver Card Services     Debit Card Team    
(402)935-2015   Teresa Rains Charge Backs       
(402)935-2141   Mikalea Charge Backs       
(402)935-2152   Anna Charge Backs       
(402)935-2189   Margaret Charge Backs       
(402)935-2340   Debbie Charge Backs       
(402)935-2063   Taj Education Team     Product Education    
(402)935-2064   Dona Education Team       
(402)935-2116   Elizabeth Executive Escalations     Works closely w/Tiffany(detp.mgr). Very Responsive.    
(402)935-2129   Joe Executive Escalations       
(402)935-2156   Brian Executive Escalations       
(402)935-2157   Megan Executive Escalations       
(402)935-2172   Adam Executive Escalations       
(402)935-2173   John Executive Escalations       
(402)935-2174   Jackie Executive Escalations       
(402)935-2192   Eric Executive Escalations       
(402)935-2128   Stacy Executive Escalations       
(402)935-2228   Stacy Executive Escalations       
(402)935-2238   Tiffany Executive Escalations     Manager of Executive Escalations.    
(402)935-2268   Beth Executive Escalations       
(402)935-2269   Michelle Executive Escalations     Schedule: Tues~Thur 9:30AM~8PM    
(402)935-2334   Luke Executive Escalations       
(402)935-5145   Melanie Executive Escalations     Schedule: M-F 4PM~Mid. CST    
(402)935-5146   Leslie Executive Escalations       
(402)935-5163   Rick Martin Executive Escalations       
(402)935-2112   Gloria Finance       
(402)935-2207   Jeremy Finance       
(402)935-2371   Julie Finance       
(402)935-2239   Collin Fraud & Security     Fraud Prevention    
(402)935-2267   Mark Fraud & Security     Trust & Safety    
(402)935-2272   Michael Fraud & Security     Protection Services    
(402)935-2366   Suzanne Combes Brown Fraud & Security     Risk Management Manager    
(402)935-2368   Sheryl London Fraud & Security     Protection Services: Senior Agent    
(402)935-5134   Bill Gray Fraud & Security     Internal Audit. Mountain View Office: 650-864-8046    
(402)935-2044   Paula Adams Global Services     Global Help Desk    
(402)935-2127   Amy Bush Global Services       
(402)935-2048   Joyce Brown Human Resources     Training Department    
(402)935-2051   Melanie Human Resources     Training Department    
(402)935-2128   Michelle Human Resources     HR/Benefits Coordinator    
(402)935-2169   Sterling Blackwell Human Resources     Employee Development    
(402)935-2283   Amy Human Resources     Staffing    
(402)935-2318   John Latke Human Resources     Training Department    
(402)935-2339   Michelle Mullis Human Resources       
(402)935-5128   Michelle Human Resources     Benefits Coordinator    
(402)935-2001   IVR Testing Line Internal / IT     Tests voice recognition, play around.    
(402)935-2004   IVR Testing Line Internal / IT     Tests voice recognition, etc.. play around    
(402)935-2026   Password Prompt (?) Internal / IT     Line immediately prompts for password. Unsure of it's use.    
(402)935-2032   Employee Attendance Line Internal / IT     (try user: 1234 pass:1234, works to play around with)    
(402)935-2069   ECS System Testing Internal / IT     Play around, not sure of purpose.    
(402)935-2299   Internal Software Helpdesk Internal / IT       
(402)935-5100   Employee Attendance Line Internal / IT     (user: 1234 / pass: 1234 to play around)    
(402)935-5151   Hold Music / Advertisement Internal / IT     Test Line for Hold Music ?    
(402)935-5149   Monitoring Line? Internal / IT       
(402)935-5168   Monitoring Line Internal / IT       
(402)935-5184   Gene (or Steve) Internal / IT     Technical Support Manager    
(402)935-5199   Call Center Status Line Internal / IT     This ext. will place the call center in Emergency or Normal state.   
(402)935-2274   Matthew Member Services     Member Services Supervisor    
(402)935-2321   Michelle Member Services     Supervisor (Sat/Sun/Mon 11A~Mid)    
(402)935-2357   Terry Dale Member Services       
(402)935-5161   Tim Loban Merchant Fraud & Risk     Weekend Supervisor (Sat/Sun/Mon 11AM~Mid)    
(402)935-5169   Alicia Merchant Fraud & Risk       
(402)935-2074   Tammy Galvin Quality Development       
(402)935-2226   Jenny Quality Development       
(402)935-2034   Janie Bartlett Resolution Services       
(402)935-2132   Bryant Resolution Services     Team Leader    
(402)935-2241   Lynn Vogue Resolution Services       
(402)935-2251   Mike McCormick Resolution Services     Resolution Services Supervisor    
(402)935-2266   Rich H. Resolution Services       
(402)935-2353   Lorie Kilstrom Resolution Services       
(402)935-5120   Tim Underlow Resolution Services     Product Education Trainer for Resolution Services    
(402)935-5141   Resolutions Department Line Resolution Services       
(402)935-2218   Douglas H. Security       
(402)935-5172   Michell Security       
(402)935-2002   April Garner Unknown       
(402)935-2005   Adonocca Banks Unknown       
(402)935-2010   Nick Unknown       
(402)935-2013   Pat Unknown       
(402)935-2018   Vicki Hernandez Unknown       
(402)935-2020   Mary Jo Unknown       
(402)935-2028   Megan Unknown       
(402)935-2039   Jeff Hagan Unknown       
(402)935-2040   Mary Steeley Unknown       
(402)935-2041   Michelle Parkins Unknown       
(402)935-2049   Jason Finer Unknown       
(402)935-2052   Eduardo(?) Unknown       
(402)935-2054   Tonya Unknown       
(402)935-2055   John Freeze Unknown       
(402)935-2061   Rick Unknown       
(402)935-2062   Nick Unknown       
(402)935-2066   Michelle Unknown       
(402)935-2073   Kelly Shipley Unknown       
(402)935-2086   Jeff Allen Unknown       
(402)935-2087   Patience Unknown       
(402)935-2091   Dawn Mouski Unknown       
(402)935-2095   Steve Unknown       
(402)935-2098   Dona Shong Unknown       
(402)935-2099   Shelly Unknown       
(402)935-2101   John Unknown       
(402)935-2103   Latrisha Harris Unknown       
(402)935-2104   Lisa Hughes Unknown       
(402)935-2110   Amy Lescott Unknown       
(402)935-2113   Kelly Unknown       
(402)935-2115   Maggie Mentato Unknown       
(402)935-2118   Paul Ingles Unknown       
(402)935-2119   Stacy Price Unknown       
(402)935-2123   Kelly Unknown       
(402)935-2125   Koreen Unknown       
(402)935-2126   Michelle Unknown       
(402)935-2134   Cindy Langstrom Unknown       
(402)935-2136   Lynette Lane Unknown       
(402)935-2138   Kim Unknown       
(402)935-2142   Kimberly Unknown       
(402)935-2149   Mark Rosenthal Unknown       
(402)935-2150   Eddie Unknown       
(402)935-2154   Charles Unknown       
(402)935-2158   Bill Unknown       
(402)935-2168   Peggy Unknown       
(402)935-2170   Deb Myer Unknown     Schedule: M-F 8AM~4:30PM    
(402)935-2171   Trish Unknown       
(402)935-2175   Zack Unknown       
(402)935-2178   Lashaun Unknown       
(402)935-2179   Beth Unknown       
(402)935-2181   Valerie Dasante Unknown       
(402)935-2182   Erin Crain Unknown       
(402)935-2183   Frank Unknown       
(402)935-2184   Kevin Armstrong Unknown       
(402)935-2186   Emily Heldridge Unknown       
(402)935-2187   Erin Unknown       
(402)935-2188   Lamay Unknown       
(402)935-2201   Ray Unknown       
(402)935-2203   Sherry Unknown       
(402)935-2204   Lisa Thompson Unknown       
(402)935-2205   Kimberly Unknown       
(402)935-2206   Osma Unknown       
(402)935-2216   Tracy Unknown       
(402)935-2217   Shaun Unknown       
(402)935-2224   Meliss Unknown       
(402)935-2225   Jim Unknown       
(402)935-2227   Eric Harrison Unknown       
(402)935-2129   Name not known Unknown       
(402)935-2229   unknown Unknown       
(402)935-2230   Mark Peterson Unknown       
(402)935-2234   Dave Unknown       
(402)935-2236   Brock Unknown       
(402)935-2237   Shaun Unknown       
(402)935-2240   Angie Anderson Unknown       
(402)935-2244   Julie Gonzales Unknown       
(402)935-2246   Sally Unknown       
(402)935-2253   Deb Unknown       
(402)935-2254   Ellie Unknown     Number changed to 935-1835, per voicemail.    
(402)935-2259   Tereasa Unknown       
(402)935-2264   Eric Unknown       
(402)935-2265   Doug H. Unknown       
(402)935-2271   Cynthia Unknown       
(402)935-2273   Leslie Walker Unknown       
(402)935-2276   Heather Johnson Unknown       
(402)935-2281   Jason Alexander Unknown       
(402)935-2288   David Unknown       
(402)935-2291   John Unknown       
(402)935-2298   Chris Unknown       
(402)935-2302   Jim Norway Unknown     Call was forwarded to a Nextel Phone Afterhours (management?)    
(402)935-2305   Amanda Unknown       
(402)935-2308   Cathy Unknown       
(402)935-2316   Laurie Unknown       
(402)935-2317   Jason Unknown       
(402)935-2322   Jamie Swanson Unknown       
(402)935-2324   Jessica Carasoul Unknown       
(402)935-2335   Steve Unknown       
(402)935-2336   Marissa Unknown       
(402)935-2341   Laurie Unknown       
(402)935-2342   Torrence Unknown       
(402)935-2349   Karen Unknown       
(402)935-2350   Beverly Unknown       
(402)935-2351   Karen Lovette Unknown       
(402)935-2358   John Kimmee Unknown       
(402)935-2363   Claire Shumiker Unknown       
(402)935-2364   Mary Viella Unknown       
(402)935-2365   Frank Unknown       
(402)935-2367   Mary OBrien Unknown       
(402)935-2369   Kelly Carson Unknown       
(402)935-2370   unknown Unknown     person answered, unsure, will recheck later.    
(402)935-2372   Bob Miles Unknown       
(402)935-2375   Renee Unknown     Schedule: Tues~Fri 1:30PM~Mid.    
(402)935-2376   Foreign Speaking Employee Unknown     Foreign Employee.. anyone identify language ?    
(402)935-2377   David B. Unknown       
(402)935-2381   Tina Unknown       
(402)935-2386   Cameron Unknown       
(402)935-2387   Cindy Unknown       
(402)935-2391   Alisha Rhea Unknown       
(402)935-2392   Cindy Kathork Unknown       
(402)935-2393   Andres Unknown       
(402)935-2394   Robin Unknown       
(402)935-2395   Jim Unknown       
(402)935-2397   Mark Davis Unknown       
(402)935-2399   Janice Erickson Unknown     Schedule: M-F 6AM~2:30PM    
(402)935-5103   Nicole Unknown       
(402)935-5105   Natalie Unknown       
(402)935-5106   Angie Unknown       
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2449  Economy / Services / Re: Butter Bot!: New BTC-E and MtGox EMA Trading Platform on: August 04, 2013, 12:14:27 AM
Quote from: fible1 on August 03, 2013, 09:33:07 PM
Quote from: PuertoLibre on August 03, 2013, 01:23:35 PM
@ Pablo

By the way, does the back testing take into account the idea that the computer the bot runs on would need to be reset periodically?

Does shutting down and turning on B-Bot every week over the course of that year affect the results? (You said a number of days ago that the bot remembers certain critical things at power on)

Hey Smiley,
   The back testing assumes that the bot has run both without interruption and without intervention. I think (and this is just me thinking out loud, no plans on this yet) that it would make sense to have the bot eventually run on our servers and have people mod settings and use tools from the extension.
Ah, you stole my idea! Hehe, anyway, considering how the bot works it sounds like it needs a 24x7 environment.

Any idea how badly restarts will affect B-Bot? Is there a way to measure the damage from such an interruption?

(The reason I ask is because B-Bot is a plugin inside a browser....so 24x7 uptime even in chrome is hard to achieve. I restart my chrome once a month on average.)

Quote from: fible1 on August 03, 2013, 09:33:07 PM
Just to repeat, drops in connection are not good because the bot misses opportunities, intervention in trading is critically bad to how the bot will perform over the long term; it basically annuls the back testing.

Smiley

Let me know if you need anything Smiley.

Pablo.
Is there a way to determine just how bad the result is with "reasonable" levels of interruption?

Vs

A server environment (that short of a tornado or an Admin hanging by the cables...really wouldn't interrupt the process.
2450  Economy / Services / Re: Butter Bot!: New BTC-E and MtGox EMA Trading Platform on: August 03, 2013, 04:08:08 PM
https://cryptotrader.org/backtests/wGfXaAKif8RFme5Bg

According to the ema strategy of 0.25 and 1 day changes, the profit would be close to 400% since Jan 1, 2013. (10/21 ema)

2013-01-02 18:00 Simulation started. Balance: 1000 USD
2013-01-02 18:00 BUY 74.887 BTC at 13.28
2013-04-16 19:00 SELL 74.887 BTC at 68.36
2013-04-20 19:00 BUY 39.986 BTC at 126.62
2013-05-03 19:00 SELL 39.986 BTC at 98.10
2013-05-19 19:00 BUY 31.670 BTC at 122.50
2013-06-06 19:00 SELL 31.670 BTC at 118.97
2013-07-17 19:00 BUY 37.832 BTC at 98.50
2013-08-02 19:00 Simulation completed. Balance: 37.832 BTC (3953.46 USD)

===================

Same settings, only with an EMA of 14/21 and you get 800%

https://cryptotrader.org/backtests/EhQvz6SatHr4HPdeN

2013-01-02 18:00 Simulation started. Balance: 1000 USD
2013-01-02 18:00 BUY 74.887 BTC at 13.28
2013-05-06 19:00 SELL 74.887 BTC at 112.25
2013-05-21 19:00 BUY 67.653 BTC at 122.89
2013-06-07 19:00 SELL 67.653 BTC at 111.00
2013-07-26 19:00 BUY 77.349 BTC at 96.02
2013-08-02 19:00 Simulation completed. Balance: 77.349 BTC (8083.08 USD)

Someone previously asked me why. I think I forgot to respond.

=============================

https://cryptotrader.org/backtests/QviZdcwv6DNhCjjAL

2013-01-02 18:00 Simulation started. Balance: 1000 USD
2013-01-02 18:00 BUY 74.887 BTC at 13.28
2013-05-05 19:00 SELL 74.887 BTC at 115.98
2013-05-19 19:00 BUY 70.124 BTC at 122.50
2013-06-07 19:00 SELL 70.124 BTC at 111.00
2013-07-25 19:00 BUY 79.405 BTC at 96.95
2013-08-02 19:00 Simulation completed. Balance: 79.405 BTC (8297.91 USD)

14/21 ema

triggers at -0.01 in both buy/sell

830% results.
2451  Economy / Services / Re: Butter Bot!: New BTC-E and MtGox EMA Trading Platform on: August 03, 2013, 03:37:23 PM
@ Kuroth

By the way, many months ago, I created a small program that would count how many peaks and falls there were above a certain percentage. I don't recall what I did with it. But back then in about 1 hour and 30 minutes there were 14 to 11 profitable spikes (after fees). In 1 day it was just a little over 1 hundred.

If you want commulative variations to sum up to 40 percent you would probably have to do high frequency trading at this point.
2452  Economy / Services / Re: Butter Bot!: New BTC-E and MtGox EMA Trading Platform on: August 03, 2013, 03:22:49 PM
Quote from: Kuroth on August 03, 2013, 03:08:57 PM
PuertoLibre have you read all of goomboo's Thread???..  I mean every page of it?

You make a lot of good points but I believe most, if not all of them, are answered in Goomboos.


Remember goomboo's #1 rule is Keep it simple..  I am not sure what your trading background and Trading experience is But according to GoomBoo's, who seem to have a LOT of experience, he stated he has tried 1,000's of methods from complex to simple and has settled on EMA as a good simple one to use..

Note: I had almost zero Experience it all this so all I am going by is goomboo's Thread...   You may be a lot more Expereinced than GoomBoo and if you are that is great and we are glad you are here..  If you are not, Please please please go read every page of his thread..


Couple of clarifications about my post that you had questions on..


What I consider a sideways market(And I may be wrong) is that for the last 3 or 4 weeks, BTC has not gone up or down very much at all..   Maybe sideways means something else?  If the market is barely moving up and down say withing a 0.10 range...   Example 100   up to 109 per BTC back down to 101.   Is that not a sideways market?   On such small swings I dont know how anyone trading BTC(using a bot or not and using EMA or another method) can make much profits trading BTC unless you happen to be trading with like 1,000 or more BTC in your trade account?  Thus what I mean by a sideways market...
Alright, fair question. How much is your trading volume?



Quote from: Kuroth on August 03, 2013, 03:08:57 PM
Next you ask about my statement that we need the market to move 0.40 to 0.60 to make a decent profit..   What I mean is per BTC..  Meaning right now as I type this the price of BTC is 103.    We would need it to go up to 143 or 163 to make a really good profit(using the Bot and EMA)
Oh, okay. I didn't understand until just now. But the old days of 40%+ seems to be history.

The volume moving these days is nothing like it was before. (Average from eyeballing the market on MtGox is like 10k to 20k, back then with the crazy swings it was 10 times that much on average. Maybe more.)


Quote from: Kuroth on August 03, 2013, 03:08:57 PM
Anyway as I said if you have a TOn of Exp and even more then GoomBoo's then please continue is teaching us what you can..  But I am not sure(by what you have posted) that you do have more Exp then him..


  Thanks!



 
I definitely do not have GoomBoo's experience. I just tinker, and then keep what works.

Now that you bring it up, there were some crazy swings "back in the day" of early 2013. I wonder if this accounts for the large profits cited by Pablo. If the volume remains as low as it has in these last two months...I don't think you'll make 8x (800%) of whatever was put in one year.

You stumbled on a good point I hadn't considered.
2453  Economy / Services / Re: Butter Bot!: New BTC-E and MtGox EMA Trading Platform on: August 03, 2013, 01:42:35 PM
Quote from: sukiho on August 03, 2013, 01:27:18 PM
Quote from: PuertoLibre on August 03, 2013, 12:45:33 PM
If at the very least the trade is not currently profitable, then don't commit a mistake of executing a needless transaction. It would be dumb to do so.
it follows the trend, as an example, if the price is crashing but you are going to have to sell at a loss to get out its not dumb or needless to do so
I noticed the tiny downturn. Made 3 BTC from it just now.

It looks like different indicators say it is about to rebound.



Edit: And it is rebounding.

If your b-bot just got you out, then it will likely get you back in pretty soon (it looks like a small rebound). So about 2 fees incurred at the least.
2454  Economy / Services / Re: Butter Bot!: New BTC-E and MtGox EMA Trading Platform on: August 03, 2013, 01:23:35 PM
@ Pablo

By the way, does the back testing take into account the idea that the computer the bot runs on would need to be reset periodically?

Does shutting down and turning on B-Bot every week over the course of that year affect the results? (You said a number of days ago that the bot remembers certain critical things at power on)
2455  Economy / Services / Re: Butter Bot!: New BTC-E and MtGox EMA Trading Platform on: August 03, 2013, 01:10:32 PM
@ Pablo

I guess I am just fear ridden.

I guess the only way to put those fears to rest inside me is to simply run the back testing over a long period of time. Since your results are 1 year in the making and an 800% increase. I suppose it would make sense to make an EC2 instance (with a free VM instance @ Amazon) and run B-Bot 24x7. At the end of the year open up the account and realize, you are one rich person....

 Cheesy

So take what I say as if I were that crazy grandma/grandpa with the crazy eyes.
2456  Economy / Services / Re: Butter Bot!: New BTC-E and MtGox EMA Trading Platform on: August 03, 2013, 12:45:33 PM
Quote from: whydifficult on August 03, 2013, 03:04:27 AM
Quote from: PuertoLibre on August 03, 2013, 01:59:26 AM
It also seems to lack awareness of what is a good decision vs a bad decision at any given moment. Which means it is not taking into account many different pieces of data. I am not even sure if the B-Bot is taking into account the fee structure at the exchanges. So far, from looking at it, it is only looking at EMA values and that seems to be about the majority of the decision. (?)

Otherwise, there is (or should be) no way to lose actual money on fees.

Well it would be like looking into the future to know whether a trading decision is good or bad. Here you can see that trading is more like smart gambling (there is always risk, etc.) instead of a solid stream of profit.

The bot uses EMA to detect trends, you shouldn't take fees into account because (with EMA) you can only detect which direction the market will probably move to, but never how long that move will last (and thus what the profit per trade is and whether you should change position based on that profit and the costs = fees).
I don't understand your point on this. It should at the very least account for fees. (if it doesn't already)

You only need to know of the immediate present at the moment the next trade is calculated and is about to be executed. You will know if the transactions take you into the negative or the positive if fees are disadvantageous in the current trade.

---------------------
Quote from: whydifficult on August 03, 2013, 03:04:27 AM
The bot uses EMA to detect trends, you shouldn't take fees into account because (with EMA) you can only detect which direction the market will probably move to, but never how long that move will last (and thus what the profit per trade is and whether you should change position based on that profit and the costs = fees).
As far as I know, EMA is an indicator of what the market will probably do and it is (imo) an indicator that gives you info after the fact. Especially the way it is currently used in B-Bot. (takes two given periods for an execution to take place)

If it doesn't account for fees in a trade then, the bot is putting itself at a disadvantage. I don't see that as a feature but as a basic logic bug or perhaps a procedural bug.

The B-Bot also doesn't give any indication of what the expected profit or loss might be if it executed at any given moment. So I don't know if it simply doesn't account for that or if it could be added to the UI and have some basic intelligence added to the rules it operates under.

----------------------
Constructive criticism:

If at the very least the trade is not currently profitable, then don't commit a mistake of executing a needless transaction. It would be dumb to do so.

Every simple mistake like that does deduct from a future scenario where the logic does make it profitable.

If we are talking about trading situation of months and weeks then it makes more sense not to execute a trade when there is a loss. Who knows how the market could vary in that amount of time. Making a recovery possible without needless losses.

(Note: I lost 20+% after leaving the bot running for 1.5 weeks. I am not sure if the Bot will ever be able to make that up and then add a healthy profit on top of that. Each mistake adds up in the end.)



Quote from: PuertoLibre on August 03, 2013, 01:59:26 AM
It is my hope that in a future revision, the B-Bot needs to evolve not only to use "A different strategy" but to use "more than one" depending on prior conditions.
Quote from: whydifficult on August 03, 2013, 03:04:27 AM

Agreed (except for the depending on prior conditions part), but I think the target audience for this bot is people who are just getting into trading to see if they can make a little profit, etc. Using only EMA is not only simple in the math sense, it's also pretty easy to comprehend. If you are serious about getting into (algo) trading you probably would not use a browser plugin (security issues, stability issues, networking / UI / processing / data storage limitations and the fact that auto browser updates can break it anytime of the day).
Agreed. But those systems have yet to be imported into the Bitcoin community.

There should be more effort in the community to use tools that are already available. The problem seems to be that none of the standard trading packages work with BitCoin Exchanges. That is apparently the communities achilles heel.

Quote from: whydifficult on August 03, 2013, 03:04:27 AM
Quote from: PuertoLibre on August 03, 2013, 01:59:26 AM
I think the max you can squeeze out of the market is 20% to 40% of whatever you put in (per month).

The problem is the increased risk and losing just as much as you are gaining. GoomBoo's method seems to be about making sure bets at the cost of significant opportunities. So if there were 20 opportunities to increase your wealth then you only took 2 of them because the EMA lines were blatantly profitable.

True, (only using) EMA is extremely bad when you want to manage risk. And 20 - 40% per month is extreme from a profit perspective. One of the smartest groups in the market are doing that on a yearly basis (so 12 times less profit per month). And they are not using EMA as their model, they got an army of quants who all using their Phd's in battle.
Yeah, but I doubt they see anywhere near the volatility in the BitCoin world.

Just a few days ago, the market varied 15%+. Thats a crazy amount in just 3 or 4 days for a normal market.

The noise from hour to hour is also about 1%. Sometimes more. If people in the real trading community came to Bitcoin they would be making a fortune in no time.
2457  Economy / Services / Re: Butter Bot!: New BTC-E and MtGox EMA Trading Platform on: August 03, 2013, 01:59:26 AM
Quote from: Kuroth on August 02, 2013, 02:55:19 PM
Not doing real great the last few weeks..  Not the Bot or EMA's fault at all..  Just that BTC as been sideways most of the last 3 weeks..
It hasn't been sideways from what I can see...

Quote from: Kuroth on August 02, 2013, 02:55:19 PM
I am getting slowly eating away with Trade fees, and slippage..  (Mt Gox must love it)  LOL
Because Goomboo's method only works in certain scenario's.

If the market varies in a certain way, you'll lose a whole lot. If the market varies in a certain way, you'll make about 20% of your full investment.

The failure is (IMO) that the bot uses only one method and one strategy to win. "1 size fits all".

It also seems to lack awareness of what is a good decision vs a bad decision at any given moment. Which means it is not taking into account many different pieces of data. I am not even sure if the B-Bot is taking into account the fee structure at the exchanges. So far, from looking at it, it is only looking at EMA values and that seems to be about the majority of the decision. (?)

Otherwise, there is (or should be) no way to lose actual money on fees.

It is my hope that in a future revision, the B-Bot needs to evolve not only to use "A different strategy" but to use "more than one" depending on prior conditions.

0.25% can earn as much as lose you money.

Quote from: Kuroth on August 02, 2013, 02:55:19 PM
In watching this now for a few weeks, we need at least a 0.30 swing in BTC price to make even a small profit..
I have my doubts that following the width of EMA lines is alone useful, if the B-Bot doesn't work in concert with other pieces of information it will continue to make bad decision that could otherwise be avoided. Making other decisions that are in concert with the EMA is in line with basic trading strategies.

Quote from: Kuroth on August 02, 2013, 02:55:19 PM
I guess this is where patience comes in..    All it will take is one or two 0.40 or 0.60 swings up for us to make a decent profit..(Like the one back around the End of Jun into July.  Wish I had been running this then..   Lips sealed)
As a day trader I find this odd to believe.

If you have 100BTC and you earn only 0.40% or .60% that is approximately...100.6 to 100.4 BTC. Happening twice that isn't much.

-----------------

I think the max you can squeeze out of the market is 20% to 40% of whatever you put in (per month).

The problem is the increased risk and losing just as much as you are gaining. GoomBoo's method seems to be about making sure bets at the cost of significant opportunities. So if there were 20 opportunities to increase your wealth then you only took 2 of them because the EMA lines were blatantly profitable.

While you'll get those 2 sure bets to profit from (if the market oscillates the right way and EMA indicators actually work in that instance), some other trader may make 10 bets and win as they took on the added risk.

Quote from: Kuroth on August 02, 2013, 02:55:19 PM
This is one reason I would LOVE to be able to apply EMA and use a bot against some of the Funds on BitFunder..  There are some huge swings over there on some funds..  I would think if you had a Bot that could trade there using EMA you you could make some serious $$$$$ Over a years time..
I wonder if that would be the case.

There are other strategies beyond EMA which will show you what is likely to be the next turn in the market. The EMA is pretty much reactionary rather than predictive. It tells you what is happening after the fact rather than as it shows up.


I see B-Bot as a good starting platform. If it could be retooled the right way with each individual having the capability of setting up their own methods (beyond or in addition to EMA) then it would work alot better.

I don't think the "1 size fits all" approach is good. There are situations where following the EMA line blindly can and will lose you money.
2458  Bitcoin / Hardware / Re: BFL is Assembling 400 (not 300) Units a Day! on: August 02, 2013, 03:48:25 AM
What are you talking about?

If you put on your BFL spectacles, you will clearly see 10,000 boxes. I don't think they know how to count. (9x3x5=135 minus any negative space = ~120)

Three people can box 120 boxes in about 3 or 4 hours. Especially if it is the same process over and over again.

How many people work at BFL in the shipping department?
2459  Economy / Services / Re: Butter Bot!: New BTC-E and MtGox EMA Trading Platform on: August 01, 2013, 08:39:40 PM
I am still a newbie to these so your guess is as good as mine.

---------------

I did use crypto-traders backtesting link to figure out a few good settings for upward trend markets vs downward trends.

I noticed it does better than the .25 settings if you apply the two separate trends as they start. (over a period of days and weeks)

My Ema settings for these are locked away on my server so I should be able to get it in about 2 or 3 days. (I am in the middle of an upgrade)

As soon as I have access to it again, I'll give you the settings so you can test them a bit more thoroughly than I did.

--------------

I noticed the 0.25 setting tended to lose money in certain market scenarios.
2460  Economy / Services / Re: Butter Bot!: New BTC-E and MtGox EMA Trading Platform on: August 01, 2013, 06:43:34 PM
You guys should look at the other indicators to see where the market is going if you are going to stare at the bots ema stats screen:



(Taken from RTBTC.com, I highly recommend their paid charting service)
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