...cut...
oh, did I hear some sock puppet whining? I like his nickname. Doesn't appear trollish at all. Lol. Welcome to BTT forums - where a minority who invest and horde the crypto-wealth get their panties in a twist when you shit on their parade. |
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Just a few hours in and NEM already has more stakeholders than NXT and Qora combined, and..... probably a far less percentage of sock puppets too.
Indeed. It's actually quite exciting. I redeemed my asset last week, and i'm happy to see i'm on the list of folks who are going to be among the first to experience this movement first hand -- the future bodes well i think. Sure, it'll be rocky, as it always is, but perseverance is all that matters. |
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PHASE 2 FOR BTT HAS STARTEDWe'll update OPs here and on forum.nemcoin.com soon but i didn't want to let you guys wait. register address and token here -> chain.nem.ninja/stakes
chain.nem.ninja/stakes/registered shows all registered with address AND token + all received NEMStake assets from the NXT AE. Everyone please check if your are there after you've registered or sent your assetRemember to read up on how to create a REAL address https://forum.nemcoin.com/index.php?topic=2488.0 and in other threads on that forum. Just like to say you got a error in the link there chain.nem.ninja/stakes/registered is what worked for me  |
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This thread has made me sad to see the past few days which is why I have not posted. I think it is just an inevitable part of the redemption process that all this fighting will occur. Once this is behind us everyone will forget about it and we can move on and start to really try and do what NEM has set out to do.
I'll really be glad to just get this over with. People are acting like it is an easy thing to manually redeem 3000+ stakes and distribute coins for them for a small handful of volunteers. The main thing I don't understand is those who are getting so riled up over unclaimed stakes which, if you are here getting riled up about it, should not even be a problem for you. There are going to be unclaimed stakes, just face it. There are plenty of people who paid the fee to join NEM and forgot about it or just do not care. Forget about them. What have they even done to deserve 1 million NEM other than paying an insignificant fee? If they want to get some NEM later when they realize its true potential and value then they can buy in and/or harvest like everyone else. In these early days of NEM, we need people who are dedicated to making NEM something used by every single person on the planet, not a bunch of people sitting around waiting on the rest of us to make them millionaires or billionaires. Of course, this entire movement is about financial freedom, but nobody ever said it was the "sit around and do nothing and get rich movement", particularly for us initial stakeholders.
I really wanted to try and make this the one crypto community that was friendly, nice, and free of all the bickering and drama of literally every other crypto community out there (something even Dogecoin could not manage to maintain). But, now I see that once money is involved, greed takes over as part of human nature and the fighting begins. That's a very sad fact for me to face, but I suppose I have to realize I can't expect everyone that comes here to be friendly and that trolls are an inevitable nature of the anonymity of the Internet. I'm still going to try and do whatever I can to keep this a friendly place though, even if a lot of you who are suddenly appearing over the past few days are completely undermining everything I've been trying to do over the past few months to keep this a civil place of friendly discussion and forward thinking.
Honestly, if we sit around here fighting about unclaimed stakes forever what kind of change are we making in the world? We should be sitting here talking about new and interesting ways that we can use NEM and its blockchain technology to help the other billions of people in the world live a better life, instead of trying to make sure sockpuppet1234 gets his or her unclaimed stake. Try to open your eyes and look at the bigger picture, because fighting for one random person who happened to invest a miniscule amount into NEM on BTT months ago and who obviously does not care about anything related to this movement get his or her 1 million NEM is extremely short-sighted and is not helping ANYONE.
I for one appreciate your efforts and completely share your sentiment. |
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The thing is regardless of how active or not those initial investors are/were they still providing something, their initial investment (in BTC), which allowed the project to be developed further. That initial funding is participating in a sense, though indirectly.
If it was my project I'd want to thank those people who initially had faith in me, by making sure they got a return on their investment.
I think we both know it doesn't work this way. People buy into IPO's to dump later at a higher price. It's why NEM called it a "Call to participation" - it was asking people to invest and show interest in it as a community, to participate in this community, to encourage people to work on it's ecosystem and to help prevent people dumping for some quick fiat. Simple "investing" just doesn't cut it anymore. For many people that investment is just a means to an end; to cash out. It's really not a huge burden on the developer's part either. You give a month to the active community to claim their stake before official launch and then hold the unclaimed ones and distribute them once a month there after. It's not a daunting task or an unreasonable request.
I think the devs have expressed reasons why this isn't the case. Although i wish i could believe you otherwise. Anyways it's a mute point for me as I'm not on that original list, but I also still want to see the issue dealt with properly as I can't imagine the solutions suggested so far would do anything to help the reputation of NEM in the future.
Learn from NXT's mistakes, that's always been NEM's advantage.
In all fairness i think this is precisely why this discussion has gone on for so long (ironically, there appears to be hardly any hint of it on the NEM forums - where ideally it should be). Given NEM's development and distribution thus far, it's leagues and bounds away from what NXT ever was. |
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The truth is it doesn't matter what we do. People will come and say it was unfair we didn't give them enough time and we hare literally Hitler. It's frustrating but that how btt works. Time to leave btt and completely communicate over forum.nemcoin.com.
you are all Hitler! Go hiding!  Grow some skin, man.  Generally: if you let people vote over a problem nobody can say a lot because 'democracy'  Just an idea. A vote is a good way to proceed for sure, but i do ask myself - how many (legitimate people ) will actually participate in that vote? I do wonder maybe few will, which leads me to believe this whole redemption issue is only pressed by a minority of people. I am happy to be proven wrong though in this regard. |
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For those people the same amount of BTC was still in their wallets, providing they could access them (i.e. didn't throw out the hard drive/PC that held them).
This is just sheer negligence - negligence that shouldn't be a burden on the developers part. It is the investors responsibility, not theirs. If i were an investor in anything, i'd be making more of an effort on my part to at least follow it on a weekly or at least monthly basis, especially in a fast paced and rather volatile market such as crypto's. BTC was also a major exception to the rule - there were no crypto markets then, peoples negligence was somewhat justified. Things are different now. Some people have lives that don't allow them the free time to post on BTT on a daily basis. Most accounts here on BTT (roughly 99%) that are active on a daily basis are newbies, day traders, sockpuppets, scammers, fraudster and charlatans. NOT INVESTORS. Anyone who thinks otherwise in beyond naive. So is it really so demanding that they at least spend a few hours a night, maybe once or twice a month, to follow their investment and the terms in which they may need to abide by to claim? How is it possibly the fault of the devs if people are so flippant and care free that they just throw money at projects and expect -- no, demand -- some sort of reimbursement of what little efforts they put in? Come up with a reasonable solution to deal with unclaimed stakes. Don't redistribute them to other investors. Don't keep them for yourselves to help develop NEM. I do believe it's ultimately the people who participate in these currencies that make them what they are - which is why, to some extent, i'm with you on not keeping it aside as a "development fund". However, given that too many people just throw money at this project, and not follow it, are they really individuals who can provide something to NEM and it's ecosystem? or have they proven that they're simply in it for a quick buck, their own gains, and washing their hands of it once they're satisfied? At least having some sort of redemption limit, some sort of terms that it requires people to show some vested interest. How this distribution is dealt with will determine whether or not I'll remain interested in NEM longterm. In the end, this is what most people will do regardless of the outcome. It's unfortunate you'd feel that way but really, in my perspective; it's your loss. |
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even if you call this an ipo then what type of an investor you are if you do not check your investment?
Exactly, I have some shares (I mean non-crypto shares). I check the prices everyday and I check news about companies at least once a week (but mostly more often). As you've noted NEM is not IPO, but if it would and someone is not checking the status, he shouldn't be called investor, but a fraudster. Pretty much spot on. And NEM was never an IPO as most people who've paid attention are aware - it was a call of participation, to participate in this community and ecosystem. Those who don't only have themselves to blame. I am glad that the NEM devs take on board the critiscms of those who (not so eloquently) complain about the redemption limits, but as i've said numerous times - there has to be limits here as to how accomodating the devs are. We've seen repeatedly from votes and changes that the devs are prepared to take on board and support those in different circumstances, but now i feel they're being taken for fools, and i certainly wouldn't want this to negatively effect what is a rather democratic process and community. Limits need to be established. They are being taken for fools. The original plan was an unapologetic cut off but now you are given 3 months to claim and yet people are now asking for 6 months or indefinitely. This is a metaphor called: "moving the goal posts" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moving_the_goalpostsI'ld say this - if people keep whining about it then the development team should change the 3 months down to 2 months. If the whining persists then move it down to 1 month. There is that old saying: "we don't negotiate with terrorists". Although i do completely agree (and in all honesty, anticipated this sort of thing), i think a large portion of those who complain come from a very vocal minority. People are more content to complain then they are to praise, after all. I think it's important to be aware of this especially if you're in any position of authority. I'd also like to point out that a large majority of those who do complain come from the capital of FUD; BTT forums. All the more reason why i do encourage people move discussions to the NEM forums, and if there is any discontent among people there, call for votes. I wouldn't propose that we reduce the timelimit. I think all thats necessary is to openly state a stance, with clear reasons as to why, and leave it at that - any further discussions should be ignored. The time limit was increased, the devs have done what they can to be as fair as possible. People demanding further action is, quite simply, taking the piss. |
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even if you call this an ipo then what type of an investor you are if you do not check your investment?
Exactly, I have some shares (I mean non-crypto shares). I check the prices everyday and I check news about companies at least once a week (but mostly more often). As you've noted NEM is not IPO, but if it would and someone is not checking the status, he shouldn't be called investor, but a fraudster. Pretty much spot on. And NEM was never an IPO as most people who've paid attention are aware - it was a call of participation, to participate in this community and ecosystem. Those who don't only have themselves to blame. I am glad that the NEM devs take on board the critiscms of those who (not so eloquently) complain about the redemption limits, but as i've said numerous times - there has to be limits here as to how accomodating the devs are. We've seen repeatedly from votes and changes that the devs are prepared to take on board and support those in different circumstances, but now i feel they're being taken for fools, and i certainly wouldn't want this to negatively effect what is a rather democratic process and community. Limits need to be established. No other coin has had such an open or transparent process such as what we've seen from NEM thus far. |
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https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=426303.msg7279112#msg7279112
In this statement will try to address three issues: One is on NEM distributional idea which I don't think many people understand even with many many pages and words have been poured on the issue so far. Secondly, I will address the issue of my personal conduct and the last issue is about what will be the future of NEM and UtopianFuture.
NEM distributional idea is best understood in this summary written in the Development Contract.
"The purpose of the stakeholder community distribution round is to spread the majority of NEM evenly and to many stakeholders as long as the logistics allows. The goal is to build a big and decentralized community that can support NEM's exsitence and operation as a decentralized network"
IMO, the distribution round was a success. We are now having a big and passionate group of developers and helpers that share the same goal and a sense of solidarity. That's very important because they will be shaping the future of NEM with or without me.
The spread of the distribution round was excellent as you can see in the population statistics. The number does not lie and we can show that to any detractors.
I failed in my personal conduct and not adhere to the rules I set myself. If you are familiar with American politics, now I have the Eliot Spitzer or Anthony Weiner problem.
I had a few sockpuppet accounts but I have no intention of cashing out any of them. I did not write down the sock accounts (using an arbitrary password that I can't remember) neither and plan to donate the fees for the development fund. I created sock accounts to keep the thread at a high demand when we have few supporters. Ghosthouse is the only account I kept using more so that I can use it sometimes to cheer up NEM threads.
It is what it is. I apologize to my core team members, to all NEM supporting developers and helpers for this issue. I will step down from now on.
The task of maintaining NEM stakeholder list will be transfered to Patmast3r. He has been sharing the access to the file with me for quite sometimes. NEMtoken account will be passed to Pastmast3r as well.
NEM Twitter account will be transfered to Makoto and he could pass on to the most suitable person.
NEM development fund accounts will be fully transfered to Jaguar0625, Gimre and Thies1965.
Ournem website will be transfered to the core team as well.
Update and Discussion and Refunds threads will be closed after new threads with similar functions can be made up.
All press contacts will be passed to the core team so that they can find an appropriate person for the job.
I resign from all leading function within NEM and this will be the last post of UtopianFuture.
Not sure i get your motive here. He left, it became a community driven project. So if anything you pretty much show that NEM was fair - not sure if thats your intention but to any unbiased reader it pretty much is summed up in this way. And what is funny is, even if UP didn't leave, NEM's distribution would've still been fairer then what NXT was, lol. |
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"what about investors(who havnt been online in 6 months)".. "people who are sick or afk for 6 weeks".. "what to do with unclaimed".. "lets vote on stuff thats already voted on".. "what the fuck is nem" < got that in pm from someone who received a token.. "3-5 people getting 50%" "40% going to devs" im sorry but i think these last days have given me a brain haemorrhage....  Hahah yes, But everyone has to be patient end empathic. Because everything you say now can be used later against you and against NEM. NXT still suffers from the 'unfair distribution' story for example. The truth is it doesn't matter what we do. People will come and say it was unfair we didn't give them enough time and we hare literally Hitler. It's frustrating but that how btt works. Time to leave btt and completely communicate over forum.nemcoin.com. More emphasis on this. Given the stage of development i think we should've moved a while ago. I think devs need to prioritize questions and posts there moreso than here to encourage migration. I think it's also important to frequently announce pages where news is placed - nem forum stickies, http://news.nemcoin.com/ and other such sites are critically important. Heck maybe it's worthwhile having it in a signature. But yes, i do find it rather ironic that people complain of NEM's distribution or redemption limit yet seem to turn a complete blind eye to NXT - the fact that many in the NXT camp have the audacity to complain regarding NEM just blows my mind, when NXT was substantially worse in this regard. What is true is this was never going to be easy, especially when there will be people intentionally trying to discredit or sabotage the process. It's just the way it's going to be. With this in mind, it's better to have a limit on the redemption because the longer it goes on, the longer it will be scrutinized and exploited. Given the adjustments already made, the votes and the open discussions, it's apparent to me the devs have been more than fair. Any more then they'll just be doormats and it'll ruin NEM. |
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My 2 cents- I'd like to see creative contests and giveaways on Facebook, Twitter , Reddit, etc..
like what? This is something marketing people get paid for. Im sure you could try harder. why not post all your ideas on to a discussion page on the Nem forum and we can all comment on them? Alright, what if we hide 100 stakes (paper wallets) in different locations around the world. Then we give clues as to the locations. The clues require people learn more about nem, download the wallet, post on NEM forum, etc.. to participate. This is actually an extremely good idea. You could incorporate it via online message boards such as facebook, twitter, to really get it out there and viral. |
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so you smart guys made sure everyone who doesn't pay attention can't claim their stake, you keep up to 40% of coins 'for developement' and thus make the coin trustbased like ripple? Are you serious? I am gonna dump this shit ASAP.
If you can't destroy unclaimed stakes you're just a joke.
I say: either lift timelimit and let everyone claim as long as they want OR destroy the unclaimed stakes but keeping up to 40% of supply in very few hands makes this coin trust-based and for that reason dramatically lowers the outlooks of it. No matter how shiny your shit is, it can't obscure what greedy bastards you are. You don't care about NEM or the project. Everyone is focused on personal gains. No other way to explain this redemption-process. Period.
Destroy stakes, let people claim longer or be called greedy pigs and lower outlooks of nem-project dramatically - pretty simple, like it or not.
Appears to me your minds made up - after all, we're already greedy bastards in your book. lol. I didn't make up my mind. I just saw up to 40% unclaimed right now and then the other person saying 'this will be for promotion and developement'. I got nothing against nem or anyone. I am just straight up about stuff and say what i think. If you fuck up distribution like that you take away a lot of its value, just sayin'. Maybe this has been overlooked. Better don't take up to 40% of supply for "developement and promo" if you don't want to destoy its public image. I actually think you make a good argument, but resorting to insults is not a way to do it. |
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so you smart guys made sure everyone who doesn't pay attention can't claim their stake, you keep up to 40% of coins 'for developement' and thus make the coin trustbased like ripple? Are you serious? I am gonna dump this shit ASAP.
If you can't destroy unclaimed stakes you're just a joke.
I say: either lift timelimit and let everyone claim as long as they want OR destroy the unclaimed stakes but keeping up to 40% of supply in very few hands makes this coin trust-based and for that reason dramatically lowers the outlooks of it. No matter how shiny your shit is, it can't obscure what greedy bastards you are. You don't care about NEM or the project. Everyone is focused on personal gains. No other way to explain this redemption-process. Period.
Destroy stakes, let people claim longer or be called greedy pigs and lower outlooks of nem-project dramatically - pretty simple, like it or not.
Appears to me your minds made up - after all, we're already greedy bastards in your book. I'm pretty much cool with any way the wind blows. I actually trust these devs to produce a good ecosystem - what i do not trust is devs to not give in to petty insults and cry babies like yourself who make idle insults just to make a point. That is what concerns me. So feel free to throw your toys out the pram, for people like myself, it doesn't work. |
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I can't say i really appreciate his attitude there -- and frankly i grew to expect more from him especially considering his conduct in other posts. I wonder what changed. NEM is after all still Beta software, and such hiccups are bound to occur (In fact, odds are the problems he experience is some sort of java issue, not so much the client itself) yet he refuses to even help himself and just simply sell. 100% true. But it would be nice if he could redeem them. He has awesome ideas. He does. He always struck me as a fair person but this just seems very rash to me, hence i'm rather surprised at his attitude. lol Hell NO, he is best at manipulating market. if you see what he did with BBR you will get an idea. I'm unaware of any of this. I've simply just followed some of his threads on a casual basis. Not saying you're wrong, but not saying you're right either. Funny though really that the reason why Nemstake does have a redemption time window is primarily to stop manipulation and fraudsters exploiting the system. Especially in the crucial early stages of a currency. The redemption period makes complete sense. Either way, he made a decision, that decision is to sell - I can respect that, but nonetheless it does surprise me. |
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I can't say i really appreciate his attitude there -- and frankly i grew to expect more from him especially considering his conduct in other posts. I wonder what changed. NEM is after all still Beta software, and such hiccups are bound to occur (In fact, odds are the problems he experience is some sort of java issue, not so much the client itself) yet he refuses to even help himself and just simply sell. 100% true. But it would be nice if he could redeem them. He has awesome ideas. He does. He always struck me as a fair person but this just seems very rash to me, hence i'm rather surprised at his attitude. |
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I can't say i really appreciate his attitude there -- and frankly i grew to expect more from him especially considering his conduct in other posts. I wonder what changed. NEM is after all still Beta software, and such hiccups are bound to occur (In fact, odds are the problems he experience is some sort of java issue, not so much the client itself) yet he refuses to even help himself and just simply sell. It seems to me that he's a man pressed for time and doesn't appreciate the redemption window period offered, so decided to just sell, while moaning about the redemption restrictions because it doesn't suit his schedule, lol. |
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The POS coins are fairer to people without miners.
but unfair to the people with out money. Although this is 100% truth, POS works very well with the right restrictions and rules. This is what enticed me to NEM's IPO (Or, rather, the "Call to participation" - it's emphasis is on a movement and a call to join that movement, not to just simply "invest" and horde/dump/pump). Regulations, in strict moderation and with common sense, are a good thing and necessary. This is why NEM saw NEMstake - the NXT asset - so those who are in it in the short term can dump if they choose, those who are in it for the long haul will buy in and redeem their asset for the coin when it is released. A process already underway now. The PoW ship sailed long ago and now only enriches those already deeply invested with heavy mining setups. Newcomers do not stand a chance. The centralization of mining power as well as the currencies themselves just make PoW an outdated model, in my eyes PoW is legacy and is a stepping stone to greater things. |
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Some minor changes have been added to the newsletter. Did anyone read this ? This thread was filled with the discussion regarding a longer redemption period for a week and now an announcement regarding that doesn't even spark any reaction ? Let me post the direct link then: https://medium.com/@xtester/extended-redemption-period-d6e7ceaf3a53that's shocking.. Soo many people kicked up a stink over the unclaimed and now that a solution is put into practice by the devs.. No one can even say thank you... Thats because you're catering to a minority, and catering to minorities is only wasting your time and effort in the long term. By all means help them, but don't bend over backwards to do so. Set ground rules and stick with it, otherwise you're only creating a bad image for yourself. Nonetheless, i'm glad to see the extended period wasn't by many weeks or even months as what some people were crying for. |
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can i cash out my 19 Nemstakes on the AssetExchange on ONE NEM account by the distribution or i must split it to 9 or 10 accounts?
i donīt want it to complicate!
If I were you, I would stick to the rules. these are stupid rules, every NEMster should be glad to have bigger investors! I'm personally on the fence about this rule, but I have to agree with the consensus. Obviously, this rule is frustrating for bigger investors and that is the point. NEM is supposed to give everyone an equal opportunity and one thing we wanted to avoid from the beginning was someone coming in and buying up a large percentage of all NEM in circulation. There are, of course, arguments for and against this policy but having such large investors really goes against the spirit of NEM because we cannot really verify such an investor's intentions. If such an investor wanted to buy a large portion of NEM to give them away or to hold indefinitely, then that would be great but in most cases these whales just want to buy a huge chunk to dump it for BTC or fiat later which is not good for the NEM ecosystem. (Just look at what the NXT whales do to NXT's price.) The good news is that after the launch everyone will be able to buy as much as he wants. Yes, exactly. Precisely. And because people can buy in as much as they like once the currency is on exchanges, there is no need to undermine the initial distribution (that often preaches equality and fairness in opportunity) by removing the 2 nemstakes per nxt account restriction. There is absolutely no doubt in my mind whatsoever, that there are plenty of people who go over these forums with the pockets deep enough to buy deep into IPO's and dominate those currencies, crashing them, or, if it suits, sending them to the moon. In the end, crypto's that have an IPO will serve to enrich a small minority, making them no better than FIAT or new POW coins - if not many times worse. I say PoW coins because there's a select minority that owns the majority of the hashing power. the PoW model is no longer a fair means of distribution and any new coin that adopts PoW/Mining are only enriching those already rich. It worked in Bitcoins era, because it was a new thing. Not anymore. I'm glad many devs see it from my perspective, and are content on keeping (and enforcing) the original rule. |
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