The correct complaint destination is Attorney General Consumer Protection of Wyoming, right? Or can I send it to Kansas as well?
AG of Kansas (where BFL is located), the AG of the state you live in, and file a complaint with the FTC. Magistrate Judge Amos L. Mazzant of the U.S. Federal District Court just ruled that Bitcoin is indeed money, so you won't have any problems along those lines. |
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Exchange of money to buy an actual product is not in the realm of this agency. Only psuedo financial products and transactions. You can insert your own jokes of what a real product is in regards to BFL i guess. Doesnt change what this agency is meant for. NY has a whole agency for consumer protection that exchange of money for product falls under.
If someone is committing a fraud connected with Bitcoin (like pirate40 for instance), then the NTDFS would have the wherewithal to do an investigation. "The Department has five divisions: the insurance division; banking division, financial frauds and consumer protection division ("FFCPU"), capital markets division, and real estate division." Maybe they will add a 6th division, the Bitcoin division! Since there are no banks or insurance companies involved yet with Bitcoin, I would imagine their primary concern at this point is consumer protection or financial frauds. |
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May never ROI. Since difficulty can fall (or stop rising), there are infinite scenarios under which a BFL Single could generate ROI.
However, the more BTC rises in USD, the better off the early pre-order people would have been just buying BTC from Gox or BTC-E instead of BFL.
In almost every case, buying bitcoins would have been smarter, easier and more lucrative than buying ASIC mining hardware. That is a separate subject from whether or not my BFL hardware returns the initial investment (it will). There are only 3 "cases" of ASIC hardware so far. Avalon batch #1 was better than just buying BTC, so were early purchases of ASICMiner shares. When you bought a BFL unit, you bought a variable return of Bitcoin that arrives in the form of hardware. The comparison you should be making is "is this variable return greater than the fixed return of a straight BTC purchase." You should be using that as the yardstick because you do not control the exchange rate of Bitcoin. It could drop to $1/BTC tomorrow and you would not earn a USD return on your initial investment. Obviously, every purchase of either mining equipment or BTC is an investment in bitcoin itself and runs the same risk. Example: If one buys gold, and gold rises, then accolades are in order. Unless one bought the gold in the form of numismatic collector coins, then accolades are not in order. Even if gold doubles in price, it is unlikely for that collector to recoup his initial investment. Numismatic coins are a bad way to invest in gold. Eventually, gold may triple in price and the investor may recoup his initial investment, but it is not a happy ending. |
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If all the June Minirig orders have received at least one 500GH/s unit, that's quite a few TH/s added to the net already.
Yes, all 6 mini-rig pre-orders from June 2012 have received 1/3rd of their order.  |
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Why won't BFL publish power usage for their units? I know, for my part, I would not want a device that runs at 200w at 60 GH/s - it would never see a positive ROI.
USD/BTC was much lower in October. The price has gone up significantly since then, which makes that comment invalid. In fact, the price is almost 10x what it was when he said that. Srsly, do some math before you try trolling next time. How about we do the math on the difficulty change? 2012/10/17 = 1,468,218 2013/08/06 = 37,392,766 Difficulty has gone up 25x. That means that device is even less profitable now than when he made that comment. Although Josh was trying to trash a competitor, this is the one rare example where he turned out to be right. BFL is so late that their devices will never ROI. May never ROI. Since difficulty can fall (or stop rising), there are infinite scenarios under which a BFL Single could generate ROI. However, the more BTC rises in USD, the better off the early pre-order people would have been just buying BTC from Gox or BTC-E instead of BFL. Oh, and nice head shot about the difficulty math.  |
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To quote Steve Job's final words, "Wow, wow, wow!"
I thought Steve Job's final words were "WTB new pancreas, serious PMs only" |
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Are those your sample chips from BFL?
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all this in bitcoin forum wow
where is the meme BTC >>> paypal, paypal sucks, bitcoin will kill paypal...... etc etc
so to get this correct for BFL case paypal is better payment solution compared to bitcoin
If BFL did escrow via John K., then Bitcoin + escrow would be a better solution than Paypal. haha, statements based on IF.)) please stop, he is right, just admit it. Comparing BTC to Paypal is apples to oranges. They are both fruit, but the similarity ends there. BTC is only a payments ledger. In Bitcoin there is no insurance, or charge-backs, or customer service, or direct link to merchant and consumer banking, as there is in Paypal. It is like comparing IP to HTTPS. My point was that a feature could be added on top of the Bitcoin platform (escrow) that would have made BTC a better option than Paypal for purchasing BFL. The reason I make this point is so that in the future, less people get BFL'd when buying things with Bitcoin. But the original poster was correct in saying using Paypal was a better idea than using just Bitcoin to buy BFL. |
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all this in bitcoin forum wow
where is the meme BTC >>> paypal, paypal sucks, bitcoin will kill paypal...... etc etc
so to get this correct for BFL case paypal is better payment solution compared to bitcoin
If BFL did escrow via John K., then Bitcoin + escrow would be a better solution than Paypal. |
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That is just BFL's reality distortion field a la Steve Jobs.
My order is not shipping. Someone elses order is shipping from June 2012. My order is now per commercial rules and definitions a FUCKING BACKORDER.
Gimme my monies back scammers.
Just for the record, Steve Jobs delivered on time. When the first iPad was launched, they took pre-orders via the online Apple store several weeks before the launch date, when the date came around a courier turned up at my door 10am that day with the iPad, he said he felt like Santa with all the smiles he got. That's what I call a pre-order! iPad WiFi pre-orders were 3 weeks in advance. iPad 3G were 6 weeks in advance. Your credit card was authorized, but not charged until Apple shipped your device. iPad 2 had no pre-orders. iPad mini had 1 week pre-orders. But yes, that was a pre-order. Kudos to Apple. |
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Truly, it shows the level of research people are willing to do before investing in these companies, or anything of that matter is none. None at all.
Between this comment, and your unwavering support for KNC, I'm beginning to have a hard time taking anything you say here seriously. To my knowledge, KNC has not missed a date or performance target yet. Yes, their plan is very audacious and we have very little visibility into their development process (as opposed to an open source project for instance). I am willing to give KNC the benefit of the doubt until they actually fail to deliver on a promise. I am tempted to order KNC gear, however I have not yet because they are not far enough along to satisfy my strict criteria for purchase from a mining equipment vendor. In short, I think the jury is still out on KNC. |
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The first month may only represent a hundred or so miners.
It might be 10 little singles. It might be 1. BFL refuses to say how many units have shipped. That means it is an embarrassingly low amount. If it was a large number, they would be bragging (they post pictures whenever they have more than 20 units together in one place). Josh is furious at the naysayers on bitcointalk.org, he swears at them, insults them, draws pictures of them, and probably gnaws on his mouse while he types. Could you picture for a moment Josh refusing to post proof that BFL can do 300 units a day if it existed? Whenever BFL wants to post a picture of 50 units together, they could just hold shipments up for a few days. I'm just going to quote this for later use so I can laugh at k9quaint a little more down the road.  Don't want him and editing and deleting it at some point... I don't need to quote this for things to laugh at Josh about. There are thousands of posts rampant with his idiocy to choose from. http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=InabaYES, you can get a REFUND from BFL |
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Name: dominicus
Posts: 64
Activity: 42
Position: Member
Date Registered: July 01, 2013, 12:30:49 PM
How did a member of The Sockappellas get in here? Singing a tune that the customers are to blame for BFL?
Dumbest sockpuppet ever, I bet this one lasts even less time than int03h does.
Nice k9, you sure make it easy to prove a point about posters itching to spew acid out of self-fabricated supposition and spite. Try being less dumb. Try being more informed. This will happen every time one of you noobie/sockpuppets show up spewing random nonsense about how "she was asking for it because of the way she was dressed". Yes I am new to this forum. Does one need to drool BFL PTSD, or own coins mined with CPU's to post here?
No, you need to read history before you try to explain it. What is incorrect about pointing to the irony that customer anger causes future sales to crash, which in turn cause further delays due to BFL's lack of cashflow needed to ramp-up?
It is not ironic. It is just logical. Less victims means less money for BFL. Investors are not to blame for how BFL spent their investment. If BFL is indeed in a cash crunch then they have lied about it, further absolving investors. It's a poisoned vicious cycle, part-n-parcel of this business that's about to implode, but still highly likely what is going on right this minute.
Furthermore, it's my on-topic opinion with respect to the original title of this thread.
All BFL would have to do to break the cycle is hire a communications person who does not insult, ridicule, ignore, and taunt their customer base. Or might that be too obvious? You don't see the same time of poisonous hatred for Avalon (quite the contrary in fact) because when they miss a date, they don't show up on the forums to insult their investors. |
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The first month may only represent a hundred or so miners.
It might be 10 little singles. It might be 1. BFL refuses to say how many units have shipped. That means it is an embarrassingly low amount. If it was a large number, they would be bragging (they post pictures whenever they have more than 20 units together in one place). Josh is furious at the naysayers on bitcointalk.org, he swears at them, insults them, draws pictures of them, and probably gnaws on his mouse while he types. Could you picture for a moment Josh refusing to post proof that BFL can do 300 units a day if it existed? Whenever BFL wants to post a picture of 50 units together, they could just hold shipments up for a few days. |
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It is hard to type while clapping. |
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Re: Criminal proceedings against Butterfly Labs for fraud quote / translation "The case was closed. BFL had indeed refused to make a refund but after I reported the American trade supervision, BFL has refunded me the 15,000 USD back." Das Verfahren wurde eingestellt. BFL hatte sich zwar geweigert ein Rückzahlung zu leisten aber nachdem ich es der Amerikanischen Handelsaufsicht gemeldet habe, hat BFL mir die 15,000 USD zurück erstattet. https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=255178.msg2846193#msg2846193This BFL debacle may be a textbook example of a self-fulfilling prophecy. I get a strong sense that BFL might've done a lot better in many aspects of their operation had they not been surrounded and bombarded by the clinically-suspicious and vocal crowd that is a staple of bitcoin. It's impossible to succeed in any project where your current customers are vocally and justifiably destroying your ability to get additional customers. No business succeeds without positive cash-flow from new sales. Equally or more blameworthy was placing sub-standard individuals to manage their early stumbles, and keep them there when things got ugly. BFL did have the technical capability and intent to design and market a viable ASIC device that could've made a lot of BTC for a whole lot of folks, but this never came to be. My point is that incompetent PR and execution on BFL's part, coupled with the barrage from unreasonably acid buyers irrevocably poisoned a business idea that did, in fact, have a real product behind it. This very damaging combination killed the money supply for BFL. The louder the cross-fighting, the less sales, less free cash to fix the issues, the more delays, the louder the complaints, the stupider the retorts....all the while, there was, in fact, a product to be had, but no extra money to address the inevitable wrinkles that come with the introduction of new technology. And you are blaming the customers for that? Excuse me but when I pay for something under a pretense I expect it to be fulfilled within reason. Not lied to and treated like crap for months on end while I attempt to figure out when I will in fact get my already months late and now devalued order. Maybe BFL should be focusing on satisfying the people they pissed off instead of finding new suckers to buy into them I didn't ONLY blame the angry customers, you should read my post. Inept company reps AND customers with anger that feeds on itself will kill any business' sales. BFL didn't choose to build ASICS in lots like Avalon. The didn't put the cash from past sales in a lock-box until they fulfilled those orders, instead they rely on ongoing sales to fund current operations, like 99.9999% of businesses. I'm asserting the irony that the louder customers warn about BFL's non-performance, the less likely BFL will ever be able to correct their performance. A self-fulfilling prophecy. BFL is not like Exxon-Mobil that has mountains of cash reserves and a reputation to keep, that they can't go out and hire an army of workers without cashflow. And what supplier in their right mind will ship them the boatloads of components they need to ramp up deliveries? Certainly not after they check these boards. So my point about the self-fulfilling prophecy: the louder the screams of scam!, the more certain their performance became scam-like, even though they did have a real, well-performing design, and did intend to supply an innovative product. I don't blame preorder customers for complaining of delays. I am one of those customers and have complained myself. Nor did I absolve BFL for royally fumbling how they dealt with their non-delivery and wouldn't quit exaggerating their capabilities, creating ever-loftier expectations they had no hope ever meeting. You know who does deserves blame? Those that incessantly warned about BFL being an outright scam, never placed an order, and wouldn't believe a Jalapeno was real even if it hit them on their heads. Instead of eating humble pie when shipments started, many of these model human beings (not all) switched their wrath to complain about slow deliveries and bury BFL, even when they had no stake in BFL. What was (is) their motivation? I suspect it has more to do with salvaging their ego than trying to improve the situation. You remind me of that castro dude in court blaming the helpless victims for his demise Name: dominicus Posts: 64 Activity: 42 Position: Member Date Registered: July 01, 2013, 12:30:49 PM How did a member of The Sockappellas get in here? Singing a tune that the customers are to blame for BFL? Dumbest sockpuppet ever, I bet this one lasts even less time than int03h does. |
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For homework, you children should calculate the hashing power AM and Avalon are responsible for bringing online so far. Add those 2 values together and add 20 Th/s (the network hash rate at the beginning of the year), then subtract this new value from the current network hash rate. You will have a number representing the hashing power brought online by everyone but AM and Avalon. Explain where this hashing power came from if not BFL.
The problem is that both ASICMiner and Avalon are opaque. We only know about units shipped in the public sale batches from Avalon, and the public farm ASICMiner reports on. Even so, with the first 2 batches from Avalon running at ~60TH (900 x 65GH/s) and batch 3 at 40TH/s (600x65GH/s) and ASICMiner public mine running at ~40TH/s that is almost 2/3rds of the network. ASICMiner sells blades to private investors as well and there is no way to know how many they made or sold. Legacy FPGAs & GPUs probably still account for between 10-20TH/s. The 30day estimate puts the network hashrate at 240TH/s Back of the envelope says: Avalon batches account for 100TH/s ASICMiner public mine accounts for 40TH/s FPGAs + GPUs 15TH/s (assuming a lot of hash power has left for Litecoin) ASICMiner Block Eruptor Blades (10-13GH/s each ) & USB sticks + BFL = 85TH/s ASICMiner Block Eruptor Blades have been shipping in bulk since early May. BFL has been shipping Jalapenos since late April and Singles since June. There is no way to know how much either company has shipped. Batch 3 Avalons have only just started shipping and some people still haven't received batch orders yet. It would be more reasonable to assume that 900 units have shipped rather than 1500. First, I got my math wrong: ASICMiner Block Eruptor Blades (10-13GH/s each ) & USB sticks + BFL = 85TH/s The first reported (in English on these forums) batch 3 unit in hand was over a week and a half ago. We don't know how many batch 3 units were shipped to destinations in China which would have arrived much sooner (no 2-3 week boat ride, no customs, etc). Large mining operations in China could have picked up the units themselves from the factory for even earlier deployment, which would be in their best interest to do. AM recently released a financial report. It included the following:
Mining Income: 102,041.82BTC
Blade Sales Income: 29,594.75BTC
USB Sales Income: 37,524.00BTC
If we assume it is a gross figure, then they auctioned off at least 600 blades for between 45-50BTC. USB is a bit trickier since they have two price points. Assuming that the batches were equal size, then we have around 24,000 USB miners shipped. If that income is all from the first sales point, then only about 18,000 were shipped. So, (assuming gross figures) at least 7.8 TH/s from blade auctions and 6-10 TH/s from USB miners. We can only estimate lower bounds of sales by ASICMiner and Avalon. If either ASICMiner or Avalon (or both) licensed their designs to mining concerns and sold them chips, then there could be significant clone installations out there by now. If the ASICMiner IP was in a different company, those licensing deals would not be reported. Avalon doesn't have any sort of financial reporting, and neither does BFL. If I had to guess, I would say by now BFL has shipped about 800 singles (of the 60 GH/s variety) and at least 2000 Jalapeno's by now. That puts them around about 60 TH/s. Tack on the 8 mini-rigs known of, and we can say at least 65 TH/s total. That seems reasonable given the rest of the numbers. So that is 3 days of singles and 7 days of Jalapeno's. If they are shipping 300 units a day, what did they do for the other 50 work days?  |
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For homework, you children should calculate the hashing power AM and Avalon are responsible for bringing online so far. Add those 2 values together and add 20 Th/s (the network hash rate at the beginning of the year), then subtract this new value from the current network hash rate. You will have a number representing the hashing power brought online by everyone but AM and Avalon. Explain where this hashing power came from if not BFL.
The problem is that both ASICMiner and Avalon are opaque. We only know about units shipped in the public sale batches from Avalon, and the public farm ASICMiner reports on. Even so, with the first 2 batches from Avalon running at ~60TH (900 x 65GH/s) and batch 3 at 40TH/s (600x65GH/s) and ASICMiner public mine running at ~40TH/s that is almost 2/3rds of the network. ASICMiner sells blades to private investors as well and there is no way to know how many they made or sold. Legacy FPGAs & GPUs probably still account for between 10-20TH/s. The 30day estimate puts the network hashrate at 240TH/s Back of the envelope says: Avalon batches account for 100TH/s ASICMiner public mine accounts for 40TH/s FPGAs + GPUs 15TH/s (assuming a lot of hash power has left for Litecoin) ASICMiner Block Eruptor Blades (10-13GH/s each ) & USB sticks + BFL = 85TH/s (85+100+40+15 = 240) ASICMiner Block Eruptor Blades have been shipping in bulk since early May. BFL has been shipping Jalapenos since late April and Singles since June. There is no way to know how much either company has shipped. Edit: I fixed some bad math on my part |
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So again... Only Avalon, BFL and ASICminer are shipping, like I said. 3 vendors with working chips in the field.
So again... Only Avalon and ASICminer are shipping in volume. Being on Day 1 of orders for 67 days does not count as shipping. 13 months 5 days backlogged. ASICMiner shipping same week. Even Avalon being behind as far as they are, are in better shape. Exactly what i thought when josh(inaba) from bfl just wrote that BFL is shipping. Shipping units from your first week of pre-orders that started over a year ago does not count as shipping you can say trickling out!!!!! So glad paypal is awesome and forced a refund for me and got me my money back!!! Oh, BFL is shipping alright. But they are using this "ship":  Thus you have to wait 6 months to get your product. Did BFL just become a verb? I hope I don't get BFL'ed on the stuff I just ordered online! |
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No, you can blame that on Tom. He's the one who posted complete nonsense as far as specs go. There was nothing for BFL to do except match his specs.
Is this Josh admitting that BFL had to post complete nonsense for specs? /giggle So far BFL has shipped a very small part of the total hashrate. Most of their pre-order/investment hashrate was in singles and mini-rigs, yet they can't ship past the first days worth of orders. That leaves several hundred Jalapenos shipped and that is just noise in a ~250,000 GH/s bitcoin network. Avalon and ASICMiner currently have commanding leads in market share, but Bitfury and KNCMiner might give them a run for their money. The good news is BFL customers who paid with PayPal are getting refunds after the 45 day window, so at least PayPal is mitigating the damage BFL has done to it's customer base. If you paid with BTC, you will have to go the long road via the FTC. |
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