I thought the point was that BFL claimed capacity to deliver.  $, BTC, or any other form of payment should not be "cashed out" to be "spent", else the thing turns into a ponzi scheme and they can't pay everyone.

They are appealing to customers that don't exist yet at the expense of everyone else, using stupid excuses, (often the same excuse over and over), to "justify" the delay of shipment, with assertive self-righteous standing that they aren't responsible for your delay in satisfaction.  Do you guys remember when BFL were going into detail about how they were going to "future-proof" their asics?  What does that mean standing next to the notion that "BTC is gambling, our stuff could be garbage tomorrow, no refunds"?

Seriously, you maybe hashing right now...  But what you paid for was an experience to be had last year.  If that had happened, you would not be here trying to defend BFL, as well as yourself for settling for "kind of shitty".  You'd be out on the country side sharing the gospel of btc, with your fancy sportcar, meanwhile plunging money into stocks for infinite power engines.

Just saying...  A lot has changed, and the original product sold was not the product delivered, and for 98% that isn't even the case yet.

Also, if you pay from another country, and your warranted a refund, the money you get back, is your own currency, and for the same amount.

What???

The currency on the invoice is dollars. You chose to pay in bitcoin, so they informed you how much it would cost in Bitcoin, because they will then likely convert those BTC to dollars. Their a US company selling product denominated in US Dollars. Someone buying their stuff in Euro would also have seen their money get converted to dollars - should they demand a refund months later, they would only be able to expect to receive dollars back, which may or may not convert back to the same amount of Euros.

Next, what are you talking about exchanging BTC into dollars? They sold you something in USD. You paid in BTC. They converted the BTC to USD. If they're not allowed to convert BTC to USD, how can they order parts, pay overhead, pay taxes or anything else? Regardless, FinCEN is QUITE clear that a company selling an actual product for BTC is not a currency exchanger.

This is something that goes both ways. Hind sight is 20/20 and everyone has to stop acting as if they were so much wiser than they actually were. If you knew that BTC would be worth what it is now, then shame on you for selling them back in June. What about that guy who paid 10,000 BTC for a pizza? Or are you saying that if BTC had instead fallen to 60 cents and Butterfly Labs cancelled all outstnding orders and returned to each customer the exact number of Bitcoins they had sent in, that you'd be 100% OK with it? Of course you wouldn't.

Lastly. Your little icon with the ant crawling. Everytime I see it on my screen, my first instinct is to wipe the bug off my screen. Would you mind changing that, maybe?

There's a lot of mixing involved with the fraud address... Here are a couple of the eventual locations: https://blockchain.info/address/1Kf1nT7jQnFC7N3tSdgg5qKGTV4MucfpBg | https://blockchain.info/address/16CvEwBTGfE7zhxKK7dzQEqCG6pSHXfLRe |

The first one has an input from Theymos, so maybe he could shed light. There's not really any way to verify MB actually holds any of that... They could be donations, assuming he's even 1FRAUD - which wouldn't make sense to connect with the donation address. So many mysteries!

o.O Check out the first address sending to https://blockchain.info/address/1Ha43kjkronAPUUyyZNdsgfKFhMgv5Ct5G

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=127508.0

In terms of BTC difficulty makes no sense to mine late next year even as next gen hardware will simply "keep up" into this spiraling hardware race.  A KNC Jupiter for example, It loses profitability once you touch november so for that matter once you touch week 2-3 of october (the calculator doesnt go as far as weeks into difficulty).  This calculator brings a very realistic and different picture from the known bitcoinx.com/profit calculator showing a miner.  I'm starting to believe that this is truly a "shovels" industry that mining companies are doing and that you can't win unless you buy in early enough.  This is just like the "block eruptor" argument...even if you had 4000 block eruptors, they still cost you 3-4k bitcoins...will you make ROI?   NEVER - the efficiency curve is just too high due to too many current asic first entrants. 

Does it make sense to take that same money to various exchanges and buy up a pleathora of Alt coins - Probably not, but maybe if one or two skyrocket and you chose them then you have still gained from those bubbles.  Just make sure to cash in on those bubbles. Others have noted that the same money can be used to hold bitcoins instead and to sell them at appreciated gains and of course acquire them at low values.  Soon if not yet so, Mt Gox is supposed to also carry litecoin so hopefully that helps bring crypto to mainstream. 

AFox, can you rework your calculation, but only with the known orders and update the OP?

Keep in mind: each time someone checks out a miner on kncminer's website (no payment needed), it counts as an order. 4100 is not the number of paid orders.

You also included group buys as one order. 45/116 of the Jupiters are from 4 orders, and 10/56 Saturns are from 1 order, which isn't a very good sample.

All of the donations received at the donation address have been sent to Satoshi Dice....

Lol

I hope to launder them...   if not lol. But then again...

Surprise, surprise - always knew it sounded too good to be true...

Yeah, that's how you interpret the bottom line.  But if you were measuring the bottom line based on gold, then no.  I'm not questioning that you are getting ahead in terms of $.  I'm questioning the integrity of the process.  If I traded someone 5 flawless diamonds for a machine that they personally valued at $55 million, but they never gave me the machine.  I'd be entitled to my 5 flawless diamonds back, right?  But if the value of diamonds decreased while waiting on the machine, and then the person said never-mind, and gave the diamonds back, I possibly have a lost opportunity-based lawsuit.

Darkmule has an excellent point, because it can be calculated that BFL were in it for the money and not BTC.  However, they were intentionally deceptive in appearing like they were fully supporting the BTC network, and they have said contradicting things:  from one being that they are going to secure the value of your investment, to then saying that BTC is a gamble; no liability!  So the grey area allows for many victims to be exploited.

BFL clearly stated that they accepted BTC as a form of payment.  Barter laws would sanctify this point.  After a certain amount of time of nondelivery, people have the right to demand a refund, and if the value of BTC was falling with no hopes of ever bouncing back, customers would have to settle for the BTC that they spent to be returned.  If you have your device, and know that you will not make the BTC back on it that you spent, then it is not "profit" in terms of BTC.  You cannot just switch $ with BTC so freely just because we are all aware of exchange rates.  I get that you are trying to be optimistic though.

So you're saying you have them already and are profiting?

If you spent 200 BTC on a miner, and still don't have your machine, I highly doubt that you'll be making your BTC back in the next couple years, if ever, in light of the increasing difficulty.  People lost out in terms of opportunity, sure, but BFL is obligated to return what was paid for not delivering as well.

Further more, BFL's choice to refund people who paid BTC in $ instead of BTC was criminal, and anyone associated with the company deserves a scammer tag for that alone.

I don't know what you are on about SgtSpike.

You are still wrong man.  That's assuming that people get their devices and are able to mine back the BTC that they used to pay for it.  At this point, you have a recovery of %0.5 recovery a day, and dropping.  Dropping exponentially.  In 15 more days, it'll probably be closer to  %0.1 and then 15 days after that %0.05.  In 200 days you still will be at something like %45.764742155 recovery, earning %0.000005 BTC a day.  Get it?  The earlier you got in on BFL (paying with BTC), the more screwed you get coming out.  Definitely more so than cash spenders.  Avalon was the way to go.  Actually, anything BTC related that wasn't a scam was the way to go.  Obviously.

Regardless how you measure the bottom line, the promises made versus what was delivered have both heaven and hell between them.  People who paid with BTC lost an immediate opportunity, but I'm sure they won't mind waiting an exponential to infinite amount of time to mine their 200 BTC back, in sight the ever increasing difficulty.  Considering, too, that there is a direct correlation between BTC and $ in this transaction, the fluctuations in trade values have to be included in the calculations as well.

I guess it is possible to not use a single satoshi of the pre-order money, depending solely on the original VC and FPGA sales to: Purchase all the parts needed to build ASIC miners (BFL stated all they needed, they had, sans the chips in late 2012); Repurchase a many of the same parts, but redesigned because heating issues; Pay for the new warehouse buildout; Pay a staff of 22+ starting the last sale of the FPGA to until a trickle of ASIC were handed over to a dwindling swarm of locust; Pay the temp service; Pay for the new neon signage in the lobby; Purchase equipment off eBay, currently displayed in their facility at the most inconvenient location, namely the front the building known as the lobby, adjacent to the neon sign; Pay for the CES booth, along with transportation and lounging of at least two BFL employees; etc.

Possible, but not likely!

I can easily make the above list a helluva lot longer, without a single hyperbole incorporated. But, I assume you get the gist.

The bottom line, it is completely impossible for BFL to do what they claimed they did without touching pre-order moneys. Yes, I don't have proof, nor anybody else, for we're not privy to their finances, and that's a good thing. But we don't need to see physical proof, for logic dictates elsewise.

I forgot to mention above the cost involved to manufacture the chips--TWICE! Fuck me! I just now remember all the advertising they splashed throughout the internet.

Here's my question: What is the maximum amount of profit that BFL could have recognized from the sale of their FPGA line? What is the reasonable maximum amount of money they could have received from a VC? Add those two numbers together? What is the sum?

Now add all the expenses BFL had starting from the sale of the last FPGA to a time frame that they would be legally able to use partial funds of the pre-sale moneys of the ASIC line.

Subtract!

If one does not come up with a negative number, I want to invest in their endeavors, for they are fuckin' geniuses.

Now, I ask one simply request: Show me a model, on paper, of how BFL was able to spend more moneys than what came in without touching a single satoshi of the pre-order moneys under fairly recently recently. If you can't, then it's consider an investment, funding their entire operation.

Remember, BFL loathes the very community that was kind enough to help them with their endeavor. This is a fact--THEY LOATHE THIS COMMUNITY!

This is wrong.  Bitpay allows the merchant to chose the conversion after the fact ($ or BTC, or both).  If the BTC was converted entirely to $ then it was, in fact, by BFL's election; nobody else's.  (aka BFL is entirely liable for this decision)  I know that sounds like lawyer speak, whomever, but what it really means is simply, BFL chose to convert the BTC to $ and thus lose the value on their own.  Everyone who spent BTC for devices, paid BTC for devices.  There isn't any way around it after the fact.  None of your terms, as illegal that they might already be, touches this point.

Lukejrk - Sorry for the misidentification, but you are still an asshat to suggest that because enron existed, people get raped, etc, such is life.  Fix it or gtfo.

Nevertheless, if I recall correctly, examples do exist, presumably where one address is not generated in the usual way (and coins sent to it are therefore dead).