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501  Other / Off-topic / Re: Capitalism (continued from How do you deal with the thought about taxes) on: May 20, 2013, 10:20:37 PM
*Deep breath*
A factory takeover is always a peaceful, organized process if the profiteer being deposed has the good sense to gtfo, and doesn't call in the riot cops, instead opting to let the rightful owners, the workers, take over.
All right, we'll start with the easy one.

What makes them the "rightful" owners? There are only two ways to legitimately acquire property:
Original appropriation (homesteading), or voluntary purchase.

Secondary appropriation, or "squatting" is only valid on abandoned property. Certainly you're not claiming that the factory owner (or shareholders) abandoned the factory?
Use determines utility. Who uses the factory? Workers? They own it.
Quote
utility 

The state of being useful, profit-able, or beneficial.

Quote
ownership 

the relation of an owner to the thing possessed; possession with the right to transfer possession to others.
Those definitions don't match.
Spot on. Thus, capitalism is wasteful of human life and resources. When an owner doesnt use a thing, the thing is defacto abandoned.
502  Other / Off-topic / Re: Capitalism (continued from How do you deal with the thought about taxes) on: May 20, 2013, 10:15:16 PM
Food is not wealth. Food, water- resources like this exist on a more basic Heirarchy of needs.

The whole reason war started is because 1 tribe wanted the other tribes food, water and women. Which was the first "wealth". Before you just got what you needed and used it. Now, we stockpile. That is the definition of wealth, period. Having enough resources to not have to hunt, farm, etc. for a day, week, month, year, etc.
Stretching the definitition of war perhaps? Inevitably, scarcity of basic lifegiving goods will spark conflict, but in a world where food scarcity is a PR campaign, War happens.
Wealth is a level above the biological needs of a person. It's extra.
The Rainbow gathering discourages trading for food and water in order to allow for.trade if other things.
Intresting experiment btw.
503  Other / Off-topic / Re: Capitalism (continued from How do you deal with the thought about taxes) on: May 20, 2013, 10:04:23 PM
*yawn* So it's usually appropriation from the previous owner.
You mean, theft? Or did they pay that previous owner for the property?
*double yawn* Some exchange is made and the new person somehow gets the materials from the previous person.
Yes, that's the way capitalism works. A voluntary exchange of value for value is made, and the new owner gets the materials from the old owner.
Nothing is voluntary with a gun to your head. There are factors at play, the omnipresent state, that youre ignoring. Capitalism in a stateless world is like Serfdom in a landless world.
By the way, Im pro monarchy.
504  Other / Off-topic / Re: Capitalism (continued from How do you deal with the thought about taxes) on: May 20, 2013, 09:57:24 PM
Wherever useful work is done to build/design/organise/etc., that's the "original appropriation".
If I come into your workshop (the workshop where you work, not necessarily the one you own) and steal the piece of marble you were going to make into a pillar, or a bunch of countertops, and take it back to my workshop, and make a statue instead, Does that make the finished piece of marble mine?
Yes. And if it's stolen back and recarved, everyone cheers, depending on who has the groovier sculpture.
505  Other / Off-topic / Re: Capitalism (continued from How do you deal with the thought about taxes) on: May 20, 2013, 09:52:18 PM
*Deep breath*
A factory takeover is always a peaceful, organized process if the profiteer being deposed has the good sense to gtfo, and doesn't call in the riot cops, instead opting to let the rightful owners, the workers, take over.
All right, we'll start with the easy one.

What makes them the "rightful" owners? There are only two ways to legitimately acquire property:
Original appropriation (homesteading), or voluntary purchase.

Secondary appropriation, or "squatting" is only valid on abandoned property. Certainly you're not claiming that the factory owner (or shareholders) abandoned the factory?
Use determines utility. Who uses the factory? Workers? They own it.
The attempt to buy those people is unethical.
A manager is a worker, an owner is not.
506  Other / Politics & Society / Re: How do you deal with the thought about taxes on: May 20, 2013, 10:50:38 AM
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=210802.new#new
Capitalism. (Please let this be the correct link...) Embarrassed
507  Other / Off-topic / Re: Capitalism (continued from How do you deal with the thought about taxes) on: May 20, 2013, 10:41:42 AM
Capital is accumulated wealth.

If you cut my grass and I promise you a meal that weekend as a thank you for a good job, you have just accumulated wealth.
Food is not wealth. Food, water- resources like this exist on a more basic Heirarchy of needs.
 I consider one of my most strongly held ethics to be destroying the complex structutes that set people up to starve in a world where actual global food scarcity is misrepresented by the manipulative industries that deal with production and distrobution of food.
 I consider it unethical to pay for food. This is freeganism and is the point of departure for me on following this reasoning.
We're talking about coersion, the threat of violence if I dont buy food.
Wouldnt you agree that consent is now thrown out of the window? I suppose opting out is an option, but within the structure, capitalist assumptions about consent are materially unfounded.
I understand that I am not addressing a number of your points directly. The premise needs rethinking.
508  Other / Off-topic / Re: Capitalism (continued from How do you deal with the thought about taxes) on: May 20, 2013, 10:13:19 AM
*Deep breath*
A factory takeover is always a peaceful, organized process if the profiteer being deposed has the good sense to gtfo, and doesn't call in the riot cops, instead opting to let the rightful owners, the workers, take over.
It is shameful ignorance to say riot cops show up in response to violence. As a rule, with negligible exceptions, the police instigate the violence. Can't have a riot without riot cops. Can't have capitalism either. Ive been arrested twice, both times in NYC parks during riots that started after the storm troopers marched in.
Rothbard, if I run into it in one of my republican (token cheap shot at "ancaps") buddies' houses, I swear to you personally I will read. I mean this
Until then, we make our own points. Yes?
Also, Bakunin>Marx. I raise you a Kropotkin and half a deCleyre.
You're a CEO? Cool. Seriously, cool. Fortune 500,000,000 I presume? Less than 1000 wagesla- er
..employees?
Not the same thing or even the same order of thing as the examples I mentioned. To claim the state does not facilitate capitalism is due to a misindoctrination.
The Capitalist invented the wage slave, darlin.'
509  Other / Off-topic / Capitalism (continued from How do you deal with the thought about taxes) on: May 20, 2013, 09:44:31 AM
Factory takeover? Riot cops.
You mean the attempted armed robbery, and possible murder of a factory owner?
Attempt to overthrow a slaveowning profiteer? Millitary bloodbath.
People are not property. We're on the same side here.
Strikes? Picket lines? More riot cops or at least arrests and brutality.
Not without a State. I wouldn't try to violently stop any strike-breakers, though.
Protesting company policy? Hundreds of riot cops.
Not without a State.
Your source is biased and wrong imo.
There's no chance in hell you've read Man, Economy, and State in the time since I gave you the link. I read Proudhon, and Marx. Least you could do is give Rothbard a shot.
Ever been on the wrong side of a line of riot cops?
AnCaps don't tend to get violent enough to bring out Riot cops. We do get arrested pretty frequently, though.
Ever talk to the Chief executive officer of exxon or shell, monsanto or any not hypothetical capitalist?
You're talking to one now.
Are you a 'sucessful' capitalist? Have you ever lived on or under the wages capitalists enforce?
In order: moderately, and yes. And they don't enforce those wages, sweetheart. That's the market. The only enforcement is the minimum wage. And that prices people out of the marketplace entirely.

Now, I'm done derailing this thread. If you'd like an explanation of free-market capitalism, I will be glad to answer any questions you have, and explain that capitalism is not your enemy, and in fact, both you and I share the same enemy.

In another thread. Wink
Capital is accumulated wealth.

If you cut my grass and I promise you a meal that weekend as a thank you for a good job, you have just accumulated wealth.

It is mutual consent. If you cut 7 lawns and have a meal each day the next week you have accumulated wealth.

If instead of the promise of a meal, I give you money that is the equivalent of a meal which you then hold onto until you are hungry, you have just accumulated wealth. It is the same thing. The voluntary exchange of goods and services.

If you have accumulated knowledge and are the only person in the city that knows how to fix my car I choose between having no car or rewarding you properly for fixing it. I promise 1 meal a week for a month (or the equivalent monetary value).

If I have a computer system that needs someone to fix the database and you have accumulated enough knowledge to the point where you can fix it, I decide whether or not to have a broken computer system or reward you properly for fixing it. I promise 1 meal a week for a year in exchange for a week of your time dedicated to fixing it. Or more simply, I pay you enough money to afford 1 meal a week for a year. That is accumulated wealth.

All of these instances rely upon consent between the two individuals. If you do not want to do it, then you do not have to. If I do not want you to do the job, I do not have to ask you to do it.
510  Economy / Service Discussion / Re: Anyone making a killing out of free btc sites? on: May 20, 2013, 09:26:21 AM
A killing? As far as im concerned, BTC0.0003 to show for weeks of doing a billion captchas is way better than nothing.
I am the newbie you speak of. Show my broke-doinitwrong-ass your ways, o-greatone?

If you had worded that more respectfully, I would've had no problem sharing how to make a few bob. But since you were so sarcastic o great one, you can go and take a fucking running jump. Good luck filling out them captchas, it fills out my wallet for sitting on my arse doing fuckall. Prick. Probs American Huh? Or even worse, English. Smiley
I actually did think you were cool and great and wiser than me for making btc from adverts- guess youd have contextualixed that inference instead of mistaking for sarcasm. Also, Fuck England Free Scotland.
Also....freak out whydoncha? Insecure much?
Also also also.
511  Economy / Service Discussion / Re: Anyone making a killing out of free btc sites? on: May 20, 2013, 09:19:13 AM
Is it possible to make a decent amount through free sites? 

From 4/30/13 to now Ive managed to scrap together 0.003 btc.
It takes some dedicaton, though. Im not doing the affiliate thing, just pasting, captchaing,and clicking.
512  Economy / Service Discussion / Re: Anyone making a killing out of free btc sites? on: May 20, 2013, 09:12:20 AM
A killing? As far as im concerned, BTC0.0003 to show for weeks of doing a billion captchas is way better than nothing.
I am the newbie you speak of. Show my broke-doinitwrong-ass your ways, o-greatone?

If you had worded that more respectfully, I would've had no problem sharing how to make a few bob. But since you were so sarcastic o great one, you can go and take a fucking running jump. Good luck filling out them captchas, it fills out my wallet for sitting on my arse doing fuckall. Prick. Probs American Huh? Or even worse, English. Smiley





Show me the hypocrisy and I'll send you all my bitcoins.... Fucking clown.
I expect you are referring to the fact that I'm British?Huh? In passport only. I'm not fucking English, I'm Scottish. Quite a big difference I'm sure you will agree. Just try going to Scotland and calling them English. And try leaving without a "tramline" on your face Smiley

No I think he's referring to the fact that you chastised him for not being respectful enough and then proceeded to call him a prick.  The irony is palpable here.
Um... not using sarcasm. Was being sincere.
Legit think folks who know how to btc better than I ARE great. That was a compliment.
o fly-off-the-handle one
Also... as a side note...  not a him...
Turns out ... text on the interweb doesnt convey sincerity OR gender.
513  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Devil worshipers cult Illuminati (Bilderberg Group) trying to ban Bitcoin on: May 20, 2013, 09:01:39 AM
Devil worshipers cult Illuminati (Bilderberg Group) trying to ban Bitcoin.
They are moving in hard now.

video source: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pBOLhvuGcPE&feature=youtube_gdata_player

Everyone must rise up to take down the Devil worshipers cult Illuminati also known as the (Bilderberg Group) asap!

I have an idea for how to do this... Make a coin that they HAVE to embrace.
The DEVILcoin.
A coin where the symbol is an upside down star/goat, then the word "Coin".

And I nominate Devcoin.
The Illuminati might like a coin with devil imagery and plans for developing mankind.
I would embrace this!


Can someone photoshop Venom->Coin?
I love you. Also the term is sigil of baphomet.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suit_of_coins
514  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: The Bitcoin Foundation is TOXIC and must dissolve, plus a call to action on: May 20, 2013, 08:52:14 AM
Can someone with the authority do so clarify the motivation for the lobbying/interactions with regulators and the potential end results?

Is the protocol up for debate? Will development be guided away from certain less marketable ideas such as stronger anonymity (various coin-mixing)? Is transaction filtering a possibility?

Perhaps if the goal and methods were more clearly outlined, there would be less backlash, or at the very least the backlash would be more informed.
hey... wanna see something cool?
*whipping out brown paper bag*
See that thing in there? Its my authority...
So dig this:
I want to send anyone to everywhere to convince whoever to start using and mining bitcoin.
I want to send lawyers and lobbyists to DC to convince politicians to start using and mining bitcoin.
Y'all remember how christism was instituted, right? Constantine, yo. If not the foundation, then who? If they can't beat us, they'll join us.
Opinions?
515  Economy / Speculation / Re: Criptocoins vs. Linux on: May 20, 2013, 08:34:15 AM
Open source as a technological philosophy will fully overtake capitalism as a matter of course, likely apparent all at once.
When? Now already and yet gradually, until we see a glimmer of singularity. A leap in quantum computing at latest, Id wager would serve as a catalyst. Perhaps the next big war media frenzy will cause it. Who knows?
516  Economy / Service Discussion / Re: Anyone making a killing out of free btc sites? on: May 19, 2013, 10:16:45 PM
A killing? As far as im concerned, BTC0.0003 to show for weeks of doing a billion captchas is way better than nothing.
I am the newbie you speak of. Show my broke-doinitwrong-ass your ways, o-greatone?
517  Other / Politics & Society / Re: The Bitcoin user on: May 19, 2013, 10:01:08 PM
And aaaaall of them look like this...









 Grin
flawless victory
/thread
518  Other / Politics & Society / Re: How do you deal with the thought about taxes on: May 19, 2013, 09:56:42 PM
Capitalism proper requires that masses of people are physically kept by the threat of tax funded violence out of control of the means of production.
Wut?
Quote
Capitalism is defined as a social and economic system where capital assets are owned and controlled by private persons, where labor is purchased for money wages, capital gains accrue to private owners, and the price mechanism is utilized to allocate capital goods between uses.
No mention of "tax-funded violence." In fact, it seems that your definition of capitalism is actually socialism:
Quote
Socialism is an economic system characterised by social ownership of the means of production and co-operative management of the economy.
"Social ownership," as in, the State.
Factory takeover? Riot cops.
Attempt to overthrow a slaveowning profiteer? Millitary bloodbath.
Strikes? Picket lines? More riot cops or at least arrests and brutality.
Protesting company policy? Hundreds of riot cops.
Your source is biased and wrong imo.
Ever been on the wrong side of a line of riot cops?
Ever talk to the Chief executive officer of exxon or shell, monsanto or any not hypothetical capitalist?
Are you a 'sucessful' capitalist? Have you ever lived on or under the wages capitalists enforce?
Am I derailing the thread, or being antagonized?
519  Other / Politics & Society / Re: The Bitcoin user on: May 19, 2013, 07:55:24 PM

The Radical
Politically radicalized and generally critical of the government. Always the first to make comparisons between administrations and authoritarian regimes. Committed to political activism and anonymity. Interested in bitcoin because of its political potential for disruption. Frequently anarchist or communist.

The Newbie 
Someone who is fascinated by the sentiment underlying Bitcoin and the technology behind it, and wants to be a part of the movement and where it goes.

The Fiat Converter
Those who flock to Bitcoin because they smell money to be made. Generally not interested in cryptology and stateless money.
Some are legitimate day traders simply hoping to get a return on their fiat money.
Others scam their way into a substantial number of bitcoins to cash out when the price is right.

The Scumbag
The unethical hacker, the poisoned drug dealer, the money launderer, the arms dealer, the child abuse image seller.
All the unsavory anonymous darknet bitcoin users who use Bitcoin for amoral purposes. Sometimes overlaps with the Fiat Converter or the Radical.

The Libertarian
The people looking for control over their wealth. Often similar to the Radical, but generally less  anti-capitalism. They seek the legitimization of Bitcoin and acceptance of Bitcoin as it is. Sometimes seeking a financial shelter. They are interested in making and protecting money through mining or investment in some sort of Bitcoin service.

Edit. I think its improved, but it still sort of lumps unrelated groups and makes jugdements. Mabye a miner hacker dev category would make sense, or scumbag fiat converter crossover.
Either way Id like to see more edits.
520  Other / Politics & Society / Re: The Bitcoin user on: May 19, 2013, 07:08:22 PM
Yo why you gotta make the radical seem so mean and intolerant?
Can you guess how much patience and tolerance it takes to even talk to someone who is convinced dollars are backed by gold or that drug law and state violence are positive things?
The picture you paint is sort of negative, just saying. You might get a clearer picture of archetypes without making insulting generalizations and judgements about viewpoints you don't like.
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