Not so much as to pump bitshares, but to create a sense of urgency for Bitcoin to fade out PoW. Because I legitimately think Bitshares will overtake Bitcoin in 3-4 years, if the status quo is maintained, due to the advantage of not having transfer hundreds of millions of dollars to hardware vendor/electric companies every year.
I hold much more Bitcoin than Bitshares.
If you believe Bitshares are superior , than sell your BTC and buy more bitshares. We will all join you in time if you are right, and you will be rewarded for your earlier insights. The fact that you are sill heavily invested in BTC and are making comments like "PoW is dead" is troubling to say the least. I don't like PoW precisely because I'm heavily invested in Bitcoin. Would you be happy if your 401k account charges you 10% expense each year? This is what PoW is costing Bitcoin owners |
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My reasoning: * Each transaction in Bitcoin costs hundreds of time more than a credit card transaction to process. (currently this is subsidized by inflow of capital into the eco-system, so users haven't felt the full effect). * Hundreds of millions of dollars are paid to mining hardware vendor and electricity company. This will continue year after year, and only will grow more and more as Bitcoin grows bigger. The Bitcoin community is being bled dry. The price action this year shows that even with massive amount of big name adoption and good news, the inflow of capital is having trouble to keep up with the insane surge of mining cost. * There are better ways to secure the network, for example Bitshares's DPoS system. Money is re-invested into the eco-system and community, instead of paid to hardware vendor and electric company. * If Bitcoin doesn't drop PoW and embrace the much more efficient DPoS system. I can see Bitshares eventually overtake Bitcoin. Simply because Bitcoin eco-system is bleeding hundreds of millions of dollars each year, and the DPoS re-invests the money and grows the eco-system/community each year. Btw, y ou can hold BTC in Bitshares  It's so sad to see a Legendary member with this kind of tactics to try and pump bitshares If you want to criticize bitcoin , do it without praising a system that will turn to dust long before POW will show any weakness. Not so much as to pump bitshares, but to create a sense of urgency for Bitcoin to fade out PoW. Because I legitimately think Bitshares will overtake Bitcoin in 3-4 years, if the status quo is maintained, due to the advantage of not having transfer hundreds of millions of dollars to hardware vendor/electric companies every year. I hold much more Bitcoin than Bitshares. How would I criticize Bitcoin PoW without showing a potentially superior alternative implementation? |
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I can see Bitshares eventually overtake Bitcoin.
You are not even accepting donation in Bitshares /thread My donation info for Bitshares is right in front of your eyes  (hint: it's my id) |
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PoW is one of Bitcoin's greatest strengths. did you invest in asics bro?  No. Hm... why do you think PoW is one of bitcoins greatest strengths? It feels stupid to pay miners 1.6 M bucks per day for burning electricity. It was a great invention back in 2009 but now we can all see its a flaw that might kill bitcoin. Especially when the difficulty is high enough so only big players will be able to profit from mining thus recentralizing the network to a few mining data centers The miners are not "burning" electricity. They are using the electricity to perform mathematical calculations that prevent people from spending the same money twice. This is not unlike how banks power their computer systems to keep track of account holders' balances Except Bitcoin already spends more on electricity, than VISA. But processes 0.001% of the amount of transactions VISA does. |
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Speculation is the reason. IMO. Not many are coming into bitcoin as users right now. They are trying to get rich speculating. Growth comes from utility not from hope.
It's pretty hard to grow when PoW transfers hundreds of millions of dollars from the Bitcoin eco-system, into the pockets of hardware vendors and electric company. Also, the worst thing is even if Bitcoin does manage to grow, the leeching effect of PoW will grow too. |
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 Success Council is a scam organization that wants nothing other than your money. They market themselves as a way to "protect your money", sound familiar? Yeah, it's the same service banks offered in the earliest days of banking. They are not even the first PoW trolls. These clowns are implying Bitcoin's SHA256 security isn't already good enough. This guy says Bitcoin holders pay for mining through inflation, but that's not what's happening. Without the miners, the bitcoin network has ZERO security and we all lose our coins anyway. Basically this clown thinks he is smarter than Satoshi, if he really is there's nothing stopping him from creating his own altcoin that will be superior. So why doesn't he do that? Because he's full of shit. There are alternatives to PoW mining, I don't think he's saying stop mining, but PoW mining needs to go. There's several superior alternatives. |
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So many good news lately, wonder when whales will stop keeping the price low to buy as much cheap BTC as possible from morons before the price sky rockets again.
lol, no the whales are not keeping the price low, how would they do that if their purpose is to buy BTC? they would have to sell BTC to keep price low. It's the insanely high mining cost, that is outpacing the inflow of capital. Each year around $300-500 million are transferred from the Bitcoin eco-system to the pockets of hardware vendor and electric company. So if the annual inflow of capital is lower than this number, Bitcoin price WILL fall. It's pretty simple. Currently I only see two catalyst that can possibly stop the trend of falling price, one is Bitcoin ETF, this is a game changer. The other is the next halving. These two will have huge positive effects on the price, and create big inflow of capital. I don't see any other catalyst that can help the price, all these "good news" and adoption won't do anything, they are already priced in. If the twins pass the ETF - thats seriously going to change everything. Since most common investors rather invest through the stock market. Thats a huge reach to all the non-savy old baby boomers as well. Correct, ETF was a big game changer for gold and silver too, and these already had a rather mature market to begin with. Now imagine what it would do for Bitcoin, it's going to be huge. |
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BTC is suffering something very strange. I mean, can someone explain, please, what is going on with the price that stuck between 450-500 USD; is ithis normal or is jut me making a scene?
Btc is not "suffering", it's not strange, nothing is wrong and you are making a scene The hodl propaganda says every year the price will at least double and we are going nowhere but to the moon and to conquer the world. Don't blame him or others if they feel shoked when the reality makes things seems different. Some people sell too optimistic expectations, and some people buy them. Honestly, Just hold. Seriously, just hold. And then when the price changes, just hold. The simplest argument is this: 1. Do you believe that the USD/EUR/Rubles/Yuan etc will be printed/created by their respective central banks at will? If yes, evaluate #2 2. When supply greatly increases, do you believe value/price decreases? If you believe yes, then evaluate #3 3. Do you believe that Bitcoin has a fixed supply? If yes go to #4 4. THEN the USD/EUR/Rubles/Yuan will all decrease in value compared to bitcoins and thus the amount of USD/EUR/Rubles/Yuan etc to purchase a bitcoin will INCREASE (bitcoin price will go up) Obviously there are more perspectives that need to be looked at, and you have to include the possibility of the world banning bitcoin or the internet being taken offline etc etc. But overall if you stick with AVERAGES and no radical changes, bitcoin price should always increase when being compared to a fiat currency that is printed without limits. That's false, there is a big expense in Bitcoin, that is the PoW mining network. Every year, about $300m-500m are transferred from the Bitcoin eco-system to the hardware vendors/electric companies. If there is no inflow of capital into the Bitcoin eco-system, then Bitcoin will lose value much faster than USD/EUR/JPY etc... So far, Bitcoin has been lucky, as multiple catalysts has driven huge amount of capital into the eco-system, making the mining cost negligible. But this year, the inflow has slowed down significantly, while mining cost has only went up, therefore we are seeing the price slowly erode, because mining cost is slightly outpacing capital inflow. We will need another catalyst to drive the price up again, and the only two possibly catalyst I see are Bitcoin ETF and the next halving. |
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The protocol is pretty solid, (other than the PoW mining non-sense, but mining is another topic). It's probably already mass adoption ready, other than some minor tweaks and bugfix.
The QT wallet on the other hand, is actually becoming worse and worse, it had better performance probably 3 years ago than now, and performance is deteriorating rapidly. Soon it will require 40GB of free space, a top of the line CPU, and a good amount of RAM, just to run the QT wallet for the first time, and then expect to wait days until it could start working. But then again, no new user is really using QT wallet nowadays I guess.
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So many good news lately, wonder when whales will stop keeping the price low to buy as much cheap BTC as possible from morons before the price sky rockets again.
lol, no the whales are not keeping the price low, how would they do that if their purpose is to buy BTC? they would have to sell BTC to keep price low. It's the insanely high mining cost, that is outpacing the inflow of capital. Each year around $300-500 million are transferred from the Bitcoin eco-system to the pockets of hardware vendor and electric company. So if the annual inflow of capital is lower than this number, Bitcoin price WILL fall. It's pretty simple. Currently I only see two catalyst that can possibly stop the trend of falling price, one is Bitcoin ETF, this is a game changer. The other is the next halving. These two will have huge positive effects on the price, and create big inflow of capital. I don't see any other catalyst that can help the price, all these "good news" and adoption won't do anything, they are already priced in. |
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Latest block 320330.
59 minutes old.
See blockchain info.
Has there ever been such a long block time? New record?
You must be new, these hour blocks happen every few days. i'm new. what's the longest time record You can read #2 and #5 post in this thread. |
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These are technical limitation, which can be overcome, probably pretty soon too, don't be shortsighted. 10 years ago, you wouldn't imagine watching a 1080p movie on your cellphone, it was technically impossible. Yet nowadays every flagship cellphone can do this easily.
Also again, a PoS mining app does not needs to be run constantly, you can just run it every few days if you'd like.
Yes, we are talking about active nodes to support a global marketplace. So yes, the nodes need to be on and working for security and to process the transaction volume. I am a a geek and am factoring in "science fiction" into my predictions. So assuming that all cellphones are wireless charged in the future(likely), and assuming that nanotube batteries are developed, than .....hmmm, well in that case I may be wrong..... Granted this doesn't address the other problems with DPoS and PoS security.... but perhaps a hybrid approach could be feasible in 20-40 years..... but this is assuming that technology for PoW wont change as well.... so we are really just speculating and the most we can know is that right now PoS doesn't seem like a good suggestion. No, mining PoS and being an active node is not the same thing. Bitcoin does not have PoS mining, and yet there's 7000 nodes. For those mining PoS, they don't have to be a active node, it's their choice. Most will probably choose to be an active node, by running the client on their computer and keep it always on (because a lot of people, like me, keep their computer turned on all the time anyway), but it's up to them, they don't have to. But I disagree with your conclusion, I think PoS NEEDS to happen right now, because hundreds of million dollar are transferred from Bitcoin eco-system, into the pockets of hardware vendor/electric companies. The longer this continues, the weaker the Bitcoin eco-system will become if no inflow of capital happens. Of course this problem is not obvious right now, due to large amount of capital flowing into the system, but when the inflow is overwhelmed by the outflow, things can get very ugly. |
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Okay, let's assume you're right... What do you propose we do? Do you really think PoS or something alike will solve the problem? Aren't there theoretical as well as practical problems with those methods, (too)? The problem of it all really is, that we don't see if it really drives us into a corner for at least many years, if not decades! Will we see a change of the block reward? Phew...
The competition is already driving PoW miners to use free and renewable energy to power the ASIC's. This momentum will continue, with or without ASIC appliances and thus Bitcoin will remain secure with a very high hashrate baseline. There's no such thing as free electricity, someone is paying for it. Renewable energy currently probably cost more than traditional in most places, and can not be used economically, that's why governments provide large subsidies for these. Otherwise the whole world would have switched over already. |
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Why does it need to be 100% DPoS or PoS, the reason why I used peercoin as example, is because the Bitcoin situation shares the most similarity, because Bitcoin will never be 100% PoS since it already has a long history of PoW distribution, it will be similar to peercoin, as peercoin will fade out PoW and into PoS.
So what you are advocating is a hybrid PoS/PoW framework? May I suggest you mention that in the future instead of making claims like "PoW is dead". I already told you, there is no electricity if you already use a cellphone or computer. You have to keep your cellphone on anyway, mining PoS is just like running another app on your cellphone, there's nearly no electricity cost, or if there is, it's negligible. If you need an example, you can just use any PoS system, and I'll show you how to mine PoS with no cost (assuming you already use a computer and turn it on daily).
You are wrong for 2 reasons: 1) You are talking about hypotheticals as no one has a cell phone node now.... but lets assume that an app is developed.... 2) Yes, there will be significant battery draw on a cell phone setup as an active node, so much so that few will do this(perhaps this is one reason there isn't a rush to develop such app ) Always on Wifi/Bluetooth and data do draw considerable more power and this is why cell phones with power saving features disable these services when not in use Lets assume that people are comfortable charging their cellphone every few hours(unlikely)... with the numbers I cited above the profits for the average user don't even cover the hypothetical cell phone apps electrical usage either. This goes the same for Nxt or Peercoins 1% minting process as well. (the real profits with peercoin are made with ASIC's and PoW) Can you show me some math showing where I am wrong? These are technical limitation, which can be overcome, probably pretty soon too, don't be shortsighted. 10 years ago, you wouldn't imagine watching a 1080p movie on your cellphone, it was technically impossible. Yet nowadays every flagship cellphone can do this easily. Also again, a PoS mining app does not needs to be run constantly, you can just run it every few days if you'd like. Also, with DPoS, there's no need to run your own PoS mining app at all, you delegate your stake to the delegates you vote in. So there are many ways to implement a PoS system to address the shortcomings. |
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Latest block 320330.
59 minutes old.
See blockchain info.
Has there ever been such a long block time? New record?
You must be new, these hour blocks happen every few days. |
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Actually, get your facts right, peercoin has over 1000 nodes: http://bitinfocharts.com/ppcoin/nodes/Peercoin is 0.2% of Bitcoin marketcap, and has 15% of the number of nodes as Bitcoin. So if I assume nodes will grow linearly relative to marketcap, if when Peercoin reach Bitcoin marketcap, it should have 525000 nodes, 7500% more than Bitcoin. how is that unhealthy? Yes, 1k nodes is unhealthy. I just finished suggesting 7k+ is unhealthy. Your extrapolation is just that , an extrapolation without any expectation that Peercoin will grow with Bitcoin and an assumption that the amount of nodes will correspond as well: http://coinmarketcap.com/currencies/peercoin/Evidence suggests that Peercoin will continue its downward trend in value actually. All of this is moot , because Peercoin depends upon ASIC's and specialized miners and is a PoS/PoW hybrid. This poisons your whole argument as we need examples that are 100% DPOS or POS. But generally speaking, there is virtually no electric/hardware cost if you already use a computer. The PoS client will runs just like a Bitcoin client (actually peercoin client is much more efficient in terms of disk space, but that's another topic), does not require any GPU power, and tiny amount of CPU to keep running. So why wouldn't a small stake holder want to mine if he already owns a computer? The beauty of PoS is that you don't even have to keep your computer on all the time to mine, you can just turn it on every few days if you'd like, and you'd still be able to mine normally with PoS. (this depends on the specific PoS implementation of course).
Do you have any examples of a DPOS or POS coin that is more profitable to mine for the average user than the electricity used by a cell phone , let alone a computer or server? Why does it need to be 100% DPoS or PoS, the reason why I used peercoin as example, is because the Bitcoin situation shares the most similarity, because Bitcoin will never be 100% PoS since it already has a long history of PoW distribution, it will be similar to peercoin, as peercoin will fade out PoW and into PoS. I already told you, there is no electricity if you already use a cellphone or computer. You have to keep your cellphone on anyway, mining PoS is just like running another app on your cellphone, there's nearly no electricity cost, or if there is, it's negligible. If you need an example, you can just use any PoS system, and I'll show you how to mine PoS with no cost (assuming you already use a computer and turn it on daily). I don't see any reason 1k nodes for a 16m marketcap eco-system is un-healthy. Nodes don't just fall out of the sky, it needs to be grown in relation to number of users and the value of the eco-system. 7k nodes may be unhealthy for Bitcoin, but for any other altcoin, it's more than good enough. |
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Actually, get your facts right, peercoin has over 1000 nodes: http://bitinfocharts.com/ppcoin/nodes/Peercoin is 0.2% of Bitcoin marketcap, and has 15% of the number of nodes as Bitcoin. So if I assume nodes will grow linearly relative to marketcap, if when Peercoin reach Bitcoin marketcap, it should have 525000 nodes, 7500% more than Bitcoin. how is that unhealthy? I don't consider NxT the largest, nor the healthiest PoS, actually I consider it a scam. So I do not wish to discuss NxT. You can refer to my old post regarding NxT to see why ( https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=325261.msg8559235#msg8559235) But generally speaking, there is virtually no electric/hardware cost if you already use a computer. The PoS client will runs just like a Bitcoin client (actually peercoin client is much more efficient in terms of disk space, but that's another topic), does not require any GPU power, and tiny amount of CPU to keep running. So why wouldn't a small stake holder want to mine if he already owns a computer? The beauty of PoS is that you don't even have to keep your computer on all the time to mine, you can just turn it on every few days if you'd like, and you'd still be able to mine normally with PoS. (this depends on the specific PoS implementation of course). Heck, you can mine PoS easily on your cellphone if a client is built for it. Sure big stakeholders will mine more blocks, how is this different from big miners will mine more blocks? you make the big investments, you reap the big rewards. No difference from PoW in this regard. Also in a specific PoS, it's possible to set the reward very low, so the incentive to amass a big stake, is not profitable (or barely profitable) in the short term. (ie Peercoin only 1% reward annually for mining PoS). It's one of those "nice to have" things when you have a big stake, but not going to be the sole reason to acquire a big stake. In comparison, Bitcoin eco-systems transfer about 5% of the value of the eco-system, every year, into the pockets of hardware vendor and electric companies, just to secure the network (and the PoW security is very fragile compared to a PoS network). Proof: a ton of PoW altcoin has been 51% attacked to death, and zero successful 51% attack on any PoS network. That's ridiculous, what about 51% attack? if there's not enough miners mining, then it become extremely easy and cheap to 51% attack Bitcoin. Therefore the PoW mining cost must remain extremely expensive relative to the value of Bitcoin eco-system. PoW is a doomed concept.
Bitcoin will remain secure: Asics and renewable energy used to power them are sunk costs so there will always be a baseline of mining. You keep pumping this PoS or DPoS framework. The question I have for you are any of these PoS solutions profitable for the majority of users to "forge"? If not than I see a huge problem with PoS centralization as evidenced by a little research: http://www.peerexplorer.com/only 245 average nodes online. Lets take one of the largest and healthiest PoS coins out there as a case an point example and do some quick math: http://charts.nxtcrypto.org/cDistribution.aspx90% of users fall between 1-1000 nxt ownership So If the average user wanted to Forge (500 Nxt Average) he would make - http://www.mynxt.info/forging_calculator.phpNothing in 24 hours and 0.05Nxt in 1 month. 0.05 Nxt = 0.002 USD or 2 tenths of one penny in gross profit a month.... So a huge net loss for electricity and/or hosting/leasing fees Lets say I want to dive ahead and become a Nxt "Whale"(top 3% of NxT holders) and invest 1 BTC in Nxt or 11389 in Nxt. http://www.mynxt.info/forging_calculator.phpI would thus be able to forge 0.04Nxt per day or 0.0017 USD per day . This fraction of a penny wont cover the electric costs either. No wonder their are so few nodes! Hmmm... that 245 node count is nicely correlated to the amount of extremely wealthy whales in the distribution graphs. The only ones profiting of of Nxt are huge whales! Personally, I think a 7k+ avg active node distribution for BTC is very vulnerable. A 245 active node distribution average is a joke.... and that is with taking the healthiest PoS example as a test! I look forward to you addressing this fundamental problem within PoS...... and if your answer is DPOS than cite a working coin example, and if none are to be cited than fork a PoS to create a test case example. |
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My Question is simple as far as i know miners get reward for blocks and the blocks include the transactions what will happen when mining stops? How will then transactions made?
Your question as phrased has a simple answer -- when mining stops, no transactions can be confirmed. For miners to stop mining, they need a good reason to. Unprofitable mining may be one of those reasons. The posters before me are correct Bitcoin is self-regulating in this regard. If mining is unprofitable, miners will drop out and difficulty will drop as well until mining once again provides an incentive to process transactions. After all coins are mined, miners will be rewarded with the transaction fees contained in each solved block. It is assumed that if Bitcoin still exists at this time, it will have a very large user base and therefore the sum of all transaction fees in each block will be significant . Transaction fee alone won't be enough to secure a PoW network, unless Bitcoin charge like $10 per transaction. You can't magically make transaction fee good enough for securing the network. For example, if Bitcoin becomes HUGE and process 10M transactions per day, with a fee of $0.30 per transaction, it's only $3m in fees per day. TODAY, the miners earn $3.6m PER DAY, with 0.06M transactions per day, see the problem?? the 10M transaction Bitcoin's marketcap should be nearly $1 trillion, but will be secured by LESS miner than TODAY. |
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My Question is simple as far as i know miners get reward for blocks and the blocks include the transactions what will happen when mining stops? How will then transactions made? Sorry if these questions are already answered
Mining is self regulating. If electricity ever exceeds the cost of the reward than miners can simply take some of there older asics temporarily offline. The laws of supply and demand will incentivize miners when the block reward drops. The market will likely anticipate the lack of supply and the price of BTC will bubble up before the next halfing in 2015, so even though miners will only be rewarded 12.5 instead of 25 BTC the value of that BTC will be worth between 3-8 times what it is today so it should temporarily be a more profitable year for miners. These deflationary bubbles will continue until 2140 and than miners will profit off of millions of transactions fees alone. Exactly, it is a self-regulating thing. If the Bitcoin price goes up, it will still be profitable to mine for only 1 BTC block reward, a couple years later even for 0.001 BTC... If it becomes unprofitable at some point, people will stop mining, the difficulty will go down, and it will become profitable again for some. And even if there are just a few Satoshi to be mined with every block, a couple of people will just run their spare ASICs for the fun of protecting the network. It will actually be safer than today, since there's no incentive of running a gigantic operation. That's ridiculous, what about 51% attack? if there's not enough miners mining, then it become extremely easy and cheap to 51% attack Bitcoin. Therefore the PoW mining cost must remain extremely expensive relative to the value of Bitcoin eco-system. PoW is a doomed concept. |
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