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541  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: BitBay OFFICIAL BITBAY Thread Smart Contracts Decentralized Markets Rolling Peg on: September 03, 2017, 08:46:22 PM
Joke:

Quote

I was looking at the Market Cap of bay this morning...
"$260M"
I was thinking. Mhmm pretty good. Maybe room for a good x2 or x3 in the future.

Then I looked again and saw... shit it's $26M Market cap... not $260M...

This coin is gonna explode soon.




We're certainly overdue for a correction in the upward direction  Cheesy

The contrast is even more drastic when you look at the valuation that other coins have been getting. Bitbay is not even in the top 100. That is something which cannot be digested.


I hardly recognise the top 100. Looks like it was grossly infested with a lot of fake dreams and talk projects with unrealistic roadmaps that will never reach fruition.
Although some solid old projects are starting to get major attention again.... lets hope bitbays time is just around the corner.

Same.
Top100 is crazy. Crypto becomed idiocracy... Maybe new investors need a bit of time to get back down to earth?

Haha Idiocracy(great movie)...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kAqIJZeeXEc
542  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: BitBay OFFICIAL BITBAY Thread Smart Contracts Decentralized Markets Rolling Peg on: August 31, 2017, 04:40:37 PM
Cryptohunter has always been helpful by spreading the word on forums among other things. He's very loyal and supportive and he tries to come up with good ideas and keeps the forum alive with interesting questions. Every investor does their part and because of that people find out about the project.

As for the price well after a year or two of running up a few people cash out and it's due for a correction.

"investing is the transfer of money from the impatient to the patient" ~Warren Buffet.

Really these are exciting times.

As for the next update, I was busy doing management a lot last month and now that we have a lot of new people in place I've been able to code more. I've tested the new build for the fork and it looks good. Also I'm working on exotic spend we will be the first wallet in the world to support frozen coins in the GUI. We have people working on block explorers electrum style and various other things. We are running a Facebook campaign and producing a commercial. We have a long list of tasks in Asana and I think we get a lot done. It will pay off. It already has. We have accomplished alot. Look at how far we've come after a couple short years. It's great.
543  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: BitBay OFFICIAL BITBAY Thread Smart Contracts Decentralized Markets Rolling Peg on: August 30, 2017, 10:32:48 AM
why don't you peg this to $1 and compete with tether?

how long til peg is implemented?

Because if we fix it at $1 then it doesn't also follow Bitcoin price when it goes up.

So it's better to let the peg be dynamic so it goes up slowly with Bitcoin and once Bitcoin crashes we freeze up so we don't crash and then more volume will go into this coin because it's safer than Tether.
544  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: BitBay OFFICIAL BITBAY Thread Smart Contracts Decentralized Markets Rolling Peg on: August 19, 2017, 11:44:37 PM
I've mention on the theymos thread on the main alt board about a review of bitbay.  

What does that mean?


this:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=2095328.0

Quote
Not yet evaluated

I haven't investigated these enough yet to give them scores.

 - BitBay

What is so interesting is, he has few choices for coins to review. And he chooses BitBay. For those that don't know, Theymos is the owner of Bitcointalk, Bitcoin Reddit and Bitcoin.org

I always figured he didn't like me as he never responded to messages a while back. Yet he has our coin on there to look at. That maybe is a good thing.

His review of ETH is pretty much identical to what I've been saying for years. But it is a gross exaggeration to give them a 1 out of 100. No matter how much I protest about ETH and it's disregard for scaling, they did do completely original and interesting code! He says solidity works like magic and gives it a 1?

I guess they don't call it "altcointalk". Why do I get the feeling he really doesn't like altcoins?

Even at this point to give Bitcoin 100 isn't really true at this point because from an unbiased purely protocol perspective, it doesn't have everything it needs to scale. That is like giving the Alpha of software a better score than the beta or release. But I understand why he did that, after all it has inspired the dawn of an entire industry!

What really I find to be wrong is that he gives Monero a 4 out of 100 and then proceeds to give Bytecoin the ORGINAL a 0 out of 100 saying Monero was worth more and thus deserving of a better score and yet he says that Litecoin is a 0 because its a clone!! So how can the clone of Bytecoin be better than Bytecoin which was responsible for the innovation in the first place?! Just because it's more popular? Is it all about money in the end? By that virtue Dogecoin is better than Namecoin? Life isn't a popularity contest.

So with that said he seems to value decentralization and scalability. Which is great! So he might truly value what we have done here at BitBay and I will explain why.

Everything I have done at this point has been to scale and keep this secure and decentralized.

Double deposit escrow does to law and agreement as to what Bitcoin did to cash. It removes the need for a 3rd party.
Two party escrow benefits almost every industry as agreement is what drives society.
It doesn't bloat the chain at all, it simply leverages multisignature.

Now on one hand he can argue that this is not anything Bitcoin can't do but that point would not be valid because I started in BitHalo and always wanted this to be cross-platform so all coins could use it. This is software, a fully immersive contracting experience totally peer to peer and there is nothing like it in the industry.

The question being does double deposit advance cryptography industry as a whole? You bet! It reveals the way crypto cash can be applied and solve real world problems. This is the first time in history a contract can be enforced without a gun as there is instant karma built into the contract.

The next feature decentralized markets he should like because we don't use the blockchain at all!! We instead use Bitmessage an entirely separate peer to peer protocol that saves messages for a couple days and passes them around groups as users decipher the messages that only apply to them.

The drawbacks to Bitmessage are that it does POW which can't be too easy or too hard so the network is somewhat possible to attack. HOWEVER...

I have proposed to use the Bitbay blockchain using checklocktimeverify to temporarily lock up coins per kilobyte for each message sent. This prevents spam completely!! It scales beautifully. And it unties two previously unrelated protocols. We don't need that yet as Bitmessage is still growing as is our markets but this is our blockchain innovation we have in our pocket.

The next drawback to Bitmessage is it's own bloat however, because networks form groups I think you can easily break the network into pieces because the data is actually trivial and doesn't need to be permanently stored. This means large nodes and server nodes can form groups, users can form smaller groups and they can just relay what is searched for on the markets by taking advantage of whitelists and subscriptions to channels. The anonymity is good because it is impossible to prove you are able to decrypt a message (plausible deniability)

Messages are sent to the markets by a payload and signed hash as well as pastebin for images to relieve bloat on Bitmessage. Thus the message is immutable and the signature outside of the message prevents malleability. But again, this is non-permanent data so it doesn't matter if it's hash is malleable.

The thing that is lovely about 2 party escrow is each party verifies their own half of the deal making hacking impossible.

It scales, it solves a problem and it keeps the ideology in Bitcoin in tact.

So as for the blockchain itself we use proof of stake and he might argue that this is easy to calculate a block in advance to attack. We know this and believe it can be solved by having a more random block selection process. Not so tough.

As for scaling I think two things are needed, first I've spoken about a combination of pruning and checkpoints. If all nodes followed the same protocol and were able to store enough data about the past to prevent spoofing I think the solution is very simple. It's not over-engineered. Maybe a decentralized checkpoint system can be added.

The POS 3 protocol allows spending the stake from P2SH and this means to stake we spend. This allowed us to add voting and by voting we can agree on forks as we did previously in our large community vote. If only Bitcoin held a vote years ago!

Last scaling issue preventing VISA scale is bandwidth and volume of transactions. I have seen the DPOS model where less nodes are chosen to power massive transaction loads. And it works. But it is still centralized and prone to political manipulation. That is why I have played with the idea of sharing the workload among nodes and peers in a deterministic way. As peers might form groups who share the work load similar to a mining pool. If you combine that with DPOS then I think you have something really good. Especially if a good pruning technique is added. You get your VISA scale (maybe).

So what actual blockchain innovations have we done? Well other than a few POS innovations not many. But look at what we have done to AVOID putting unnecessary bullshit on the chain?! To that I say there may be no other coin that can even touch us. We found and developed protocols that allows the decentralized markets. Two entire layers for data combined as one. Then we pioneered a contracting system that has almost unlimited use cases and solves a problem of deception and theft truly stopping those things dead in their tracks. A historical first.

And this has taken me several years to code and accomplish, it wasn't easy. Especially because the temptation to bloat the chain like ETH was there if I wanted it. And unlike Bitcoin or Zcash, I didn't have a big team of coders behind me.

There is an GREAT blockchain innovation on the way, and it is our ace in the hole. The one thing that plagues Bitcoin is the volatility!

We solve that with a DYNAMIC PEG. A "rolling" peg similar to a crawling peg. Some guy chimed in about BitUSD and how the market manipulation makes it a bad long. But with our peg we suffer no such problem because we are only controlling supply/liquidity.

The fact that our peg makes two assets frozen and liquid coins where the frozen coins are only different in speed is a frikkin awesome feature many of our communities favorites. We avoid bloat by having a separate database for tagging and tracking inputs and only report state changes to inputs where obvious liquidity changes are assumed by nodes. Fees are tracked too to avoid the loss of liquidity at a certain range. The idea is pure, simple and really can't get simpler when it comes to market pegs.

The rolling peg needs no third parties, no custodians, no political influence, is fully decentralized and isn't prone to market manipulation

It replaces the market maker with technology. If you allow unlimited changes to the supply daily and unlimited interest then you can even force a hard peg with an algorithm.

For investors we will be doing the changes in supply by voting AND algorithm. This may favor the stakers who can vote but it is going to allow a little speculation and thus interest in the tech itself where a hard peg may go unnoticed.

The peg operates by enforcing it on the time of spending. The frozen coins are not immovable, they are slowed by one month. It is not necessary to use checklocktimeverify to do so as miners will keep track anyways. The "slowed" coins allow for bond like instruments, liquidity swaps which are very similar to trustless loans and futures depending on the motive to swap. This creates in my opinion a massive paradigm shift in the APPLICATIONS of crypto.

So was my innovation a better mathematical crypto algoritm? A zero knowledge proof anon system? A codebase no derived from Bitcoin? No.
But does it revolutionize and pioneer new ideas that have true real world use case? Yes.

Serverless markets, 2 party agreements with no escrow, crawling peg applied to cryptocurrency

Solving major problems of decentralization, agreement/enforcement/contract/bloat, volatility and the ability to emulate large markets from a small market!

To protect the network you can even build a disincentive to lie about a tx because we are forcing nodes to spend to stake and have their input as collateral if they do betray the protocol. This is a Vitalik idea that I was actually fond of.

To scale proposing the following: Pruning, sharing workload, checklocktimeverify funds per byte

The lightning network can also be implemented if needed when made WITHOUT SEGWIT. We would choose not to add segwit because Bitcoin is labeling payments as "True" and thus allowing the miners to control unbelievable power of the protocol at whim. Segwit is a hack that wasn't needed for lightning. As malleability could have been solved by having users sign the txid hash requiring a fork which they were too scared to do. In turn they centralize Bitcoin to the miners and POW is a horrid waste of power, generating more power than entire countries just to generate little hashes.

Lightning network is potentially better with frozen funds like in our crawling peg because that can be used as collateral in the 2 of 2 making it more decentralized in a sense giving access to potentially more holders and links. After all why not make use of the funds not in use?

And the same goes for sharing the stake among nodes. Why not make use of the nodes that aren't doing anything? Here we would have potentially 1000s of nodes wasting their time on hashes when they should be verifying transactions!!

Now based on his (generous?) reviews of other altcoins we shouldn't expect more than a big "0" or maybe he will give us a "-1" because he might mention our past when the founders left us(which has nothing to do with what was accomplished here). And to do so would be to ignore years of blood sweat and tears poured into Halo and we can laugh it off.

Or heck, maybe he really sinks his teeth into what we are doing here and says "Hey, that is pretty cool!" ... a man can dream. It must be nice to be accepted.  Cheesy
545  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: BitBay OFFICIAL BITBAY Thread Smart Contracts Decentralized Markets Rolling Peg on: August 19, 2017, 10:35:17 PM
is there any news that cause this pump? or it's just the pump?

who knows this thread is like a graveyard for discussion . Perhaps something announced on slack.

other possibility people are reading the theymos thread and seeing bitbay listed there top for review

churners finished dumping down and now getting back in

meaningless pump.

I'm hoping just sensible correction now.

This thread isn't a graveyard, there is always a few comments every day or so. It's just that slack has 1300+ members and they can interact and ask questions not to mention it's useful if they are on the markets.

I think it's funny when people use the terms "pump" for BitBay. Our volume is fairly organic and the price is easy to move in either direction.

But in all honestly, how can anyone consider this a pump. It's a correction at the very least. We had 6 months of slow steady growth wiped out within a few weeks. When you consider someone is literally just giving their coins away at this level. So personally I think we are due for a 100% correction in price.
546  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: BitBay OFFICIAL BITBAY Thread Smart Contracts Decentralized Markets Rolling Peg on: August 18, 2017, 03:34:46 AM
Hi guys,
I am a BAY hodler, and I see that the currency is quite under pressure since a couple weeks.

Any idea? A roadmap to come?

I believe that the tech is awesome, but sadly the market does not push for BitBay

Thanks!!
Its just a matter of time Smiley Bay has just launched a exchange in India, and they have great team Smiley and I have bought 2 btc worth bay now Wink its time to buy price can easily be pushed to 1000, though they need good marketing team Smiley this project has a great future.

This is precisely why the project should consider a rebrand when redoing the UI down the line.  If senior BCTalk members are getting confused just imagine what it's doing to newbies.  Fighting them for traffic and SEO is not a wise option, they are a business with centralized funds.  It's not a battle that Bay can win atm.

A re-brand is a double edged sword. It can lose exchange relationships, it can make it so old customers can't find you, it can result in an inferior brand name, or a brand name that doesn't get searched often enough.

That strategy is one we should only capitalize on if all else fails and we are looking for funding or various other reasons like you mentioned. We should think 4th dimensional. Almost every exchange I remember from years ago, is gone! Due to hacks either performed by the owners themselves or etc. We can't assume that the exchange won't get replaced by decentralized exchanges either. Or that we won't make enough funds to buy them out or even partner with them. We have a trustless fiat gateway. Things they might want and need. Co-branding is always a possibility. There isn't necessarily an overlap. It's like being on a Delta Airplane and seeing Delta Faucet. We are in the same industry but do totally different things.
547  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: BitBay OFFICIAL BITBAY Thread Smart Contracts Decentralized Markets Rolling Peg on: August 17, 2017, 01:19:11 AM
Hi guys,
I am a BAY hodler, and I see that the currency is quite under pressure since a couple weeks.

Any idea? A roadmap to come?

I believe that the tech is awesome, but sadly the market does not push for BitBay

Thanks!!
Its just a matter of time Smiley Bay has just launched a exchange in India, and they have great team Smiley and I have bought 2 btc worth bay now Wink its time to buy price can easily be pushed to 1000, though they need good marketing team Smiley this project has a great future.

Can you detail this exchange ? the team. Some facts appreciated!
thanks!

He is confusing the BitBay exchange with the coin.

Anyways the roadmap and details is on the OP. You have to realize that this software already exists, we aren't like the other projects who promise non-existent features. Download the markets client and see for yourself. It's been running for years. Unbreakable contracts decentralized markets etc.
548  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: BitBay OFFICIAL BITBAY Thread Smart Contracts Decentralized Markets Rolling Peg on: August 13, 2017, 05:27:19 AM
Once enough people realize that most of these ICOs are nothing but "hype and hope", they will eventually flock to projects that actually have working tech with real world uses (like BAY). BitBay has one of the most extensive lists of useful features in all of crypto. It is an extremely versatile and multifaceted coin. The amount of real world use cases for it are almost endless. BAY already has a WORKING decentralized market with unbreakable smart contracts. The upcoming rolling peg will just be icing on the cake. I'm not gonna give any names, but can somebody please give me a reasonable reason why other projects that would be considered competition, are worth more than BAY, when BAY is arguably better than all of them? It absolutely makes no sense.

If anybody isn't familiar with BAY, just go check out its "Wall of Features"



OR (and I fear more likely scenario) the ICO vaporware slowly becomes apparent over the next 6mo-2 years and all the investors dump, then cash out at a loss thus creating the SECOND great crypto crash.

Possible that's why I'm trying to finish the features. It's a bit of a race. We have to try and make sure people don't invest in those. They fake volume and people need to be aware of it.
549  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: BitBay OFFICIAL BITBAY Thread Smart Contracts Decentralized Markets Rolling Peg on: August 13, 2017, 02:46:52 AM

buyer 1 wants to buy a product worth of $1000 he has to send the seller $1000 and make a deposit of 1000 in the smart contract with the seller. The seller also have to put in $1000 in the contract. If the buyer dont gets his product he loses the original $1000 (cause he already send those) and he can choose to blow up the contract which hold the shared $2000 and that will get burned. So the seller would lose $1000 and the buyer $2000. This is how its works right? So even if the seller didnt deliver the buyer could lose another $1000 by blowing up the dubbel deposit contract?

So why cant you have 1 contract where the buyer send $1100 to the contract (1000 for the product and 100 for the insurance) and the seller also has to put in $1000 in the contract. Now if the buyer gets no product he loses $1100 and the seller $1000. Maybe you can even put the extra 100 that if the contract blows up the 100 will get back to the buyer? If the buyer does get his product the contract is released the seller gets his $1000 and the buyer gets his $100 back

What do I have wrong since this seems to be more logical to me there must be something I dont understand

Hey well you can have custom deposits. You can even have unilateral contracts. However you can't structure 100 to go back to someone if it "blows up" as who would determine that? It would then serve no purpose to add the 100 in the first place other than to make it not liquid.

But yes in general you have the right idea. Remember this is a trust building exercise. If I don't trust you then we set up the 100% deposits. If I do trust you then we set it lower or don't even add it at all.

Realize that if the buyer posts an advance payment for an item with no deposit and the sellers has no deposit, the odds that the seller will blow up the contract is also extremely low. The buyer receiving the item to not release payment is extremely low because he can't get it back. The only thing that arises is an extortion situation which is why there is a time limit and deposits to begin with. But if the parties gain substantial trust on the markets then why not.
550  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: BitBay OFFICIAL BITBAY Thread Smart Contracts Decentralized Markets Rolling Peg on: August 11, 2017, 09:08:11 PM

Alright thank you for answering. Been reading a but more and listened to some radio interviews with you. You seem quite the anarchist on the pirate radio. So the rolling peg is somewhat more clear to me now. When doe you think the rolling pes will be implemented? I know new tech is almost impossible to give time scales on I only ask bc I think before we need lots of marketing and a period of heavy trading volume so we will get the attention of lots of new people.

Some questions didnt got answered and I got some new question when I thought about bitbay this day. First to come back on previous questions how is the budget? How is this arranged? I think bitbay need some serious marketing and therefore is (a lot)  money needed. I'll be willing to donate some if there is some serious effort but with my donation alone this wont get far. Are there any ways to get funding from the pos blocks? Iam not a coder and I realise that this is not something easy to do but with the voting system already in place it could be used for lots of good things what can be developed and funded this way.

Also I am thinking about the double deposit. I get that this may be the only way to force both parties to be honest. But I think regular customers( who dont know and dont care if its the only fair way or not) will not be happy with the double deposits if the want to buy something expensive.. If you want to buy lets say something worth $500-1000 and you finely saved the money together in the past months they maybe dont have the money for the double deposit, cant miss it at the moment or are afried to lose it (when there not familiar with the platform) I get that the reputation system is making this problem better but will not help a new buyer when he starts on the platform which will make  

So why not make (if possible at all) 1 contract for the money, no double deposits, but with the rules of the double deposit. Besides that the buyer has to deposit 10-20% extra on top of the original amount. If the buyer receives an empty box the funds in the contract get burned and both sides lose the money. If the buyer receives its product he agrees the funds will be released to the seller and the buyer gets his 10-20 % on top of the original amount back as incentive for not screwing the seller over when he got his product. This way you wont have to force the buyer to put in a 100% extra on top of the original amount.

Probably missing some points why my example doesnt work, but this was what I was thinking today. Maybe double deposits are the way to a fair market but will be a strange thing for customers and with higher amounts of money it will get tricky since not everyone can afford the double deposit.


Yea I'm a bit of an anarchist. It was after a realization that laws aren't morals. It is not immoral to be outside naked. It is illegal. And yet it is immoral to go after a person who is naked in public, threaten to shoot them if they don't come with you, then throw them in a jail cell. So the irony is cops and military the the immoral ones. Sure there is exceptions like punishing people who murder but even in that case, how can you prove guilt. Why can't people be taught to be peaceful? Why is the world not peaceful. Why is our media pure violence. Most laws are absurd and even more absurd is the method of punishment used. Two wrongs don't make a right, the jury and judge is usually wrong too. Also their judgement is under the authority of man and let all men be liars.

The world could be very beautiful without government. Things were always better in the past. For a man to trade freedom for security he will soon find he has neither.

The peg should be implemented within a year hopefully 6 months... people anticipate Q1 2018 and this will depend on when i get these templates done.

The budget... well since the founders left we have had to fund a lot of things ourselves. Sometimes the community helps and sometimes I fund from my personal Bitcoins. Sometimes I pay BitBay to bounties we have investors who got in early and they chip in. But there is no standard budget. We are volunteer and bounty driven. Sometimes I pay PR and soon we will start a Facebook ad campaign.

People can donate their POS rewards in the market client. That's already a feature. It's voluntary.

Oddly enough new buyers have put down large deposits on large purchase as we have had cash wires where a hefty deposit was done. I have also personally done an arbitrage contract with a big deposit. We have them and so far nobody has complained. Perhaps if this got really big an insurance company would come in for a fee to cover people who can't afford it.

To include a fee on top, why do that? The buyer should get that back. The thing about these contracts is they can be unilateral. So lets say a buyer has no deposit. The seller can guarantee his end of the bargain letting new buyers into the system. This is used for example on a persons "first" coins. But seller may want to do a little KYC first.

To be honest, this takes some getting used to. It's a major paradigm shift.

551  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: BitBay OFFICIAL BITBAY Thread Smart Contracts Decentralized Markets Rolling Peg on: August 11, 2017, 08:52:05 PM
Read the whitepaper and found some of the concepts extremely interesting insofar as digital trade is concerned.  There is little mention of dealing with physical goods in the real world ie: ebay's current province.  So, have I got this wrong then?  Is bitbay primarily geared toward plugging holes in crypto trade/digital trade, with exchange of physical goods ancillary to that end?

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A small $4 deposit on a $4 item is perfectly fine.

A small $4 deposit on a $4 item is cumbersome and illogical to most normies.

Quote
Now lets say you are involved in a 10k deal, even a deposit of 2500 should be no issue here.

I can think of about a million examples where $2500 on $10K would be impossible, or cause undue harm/distress to the one putting down the deposit.

The issue I'm seeing here is why a 42 year old house wife would sit down to buy her widgits and baubles and on one hand you have ebay...click and buy...and on the other bitbay where you have to put down a deposit on top of the purchase price.  As far as most people are concerned when money leaves their account its gone, even if there's a promise it's coming back.  So the housewife would choose ebay and IMO so would most buyers given what I'm seeing here.  And where the buyers go the sellers follow, not the other way around.

You haven't yet addressed why people can't create burner accounts to game the system.  You go into detail regarding an example that seems to focus on one person/one account.  Is there anything stopping one person from holding multiple accounts?  Is there anything stopping that person from using one of those accounts to build up rep buying junk with the intention of scamming a seller on a large item (ie, only having to pay the fractional deposit on an item worth four times as much, etc).  Will rep be weighted based on dollar/bay value of transactions completed, or is it (let's say) one rep point regardless of whether it's a $4 or $10K transaction?

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There is no justice in this world we are trying to bring that back. ... Think of this analogy, both of your children are fighting. One is lying but you can't find out who. So, you punish both. You kindly explain "I know one of you are telling me the truth and I think I know who it is, but this way both of you will know not to lie as it will never favor you. If I was to choose, then I might choose wrong and reward the one who lies so I reward neither in order to never incentivize a lie."

That's not justice.  At all.

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As you said when it is in limbo it's really no big deal because...

It is a big deal due to inflation.  It's why no one keeps money in a savings account, because it loses money.  That's why I suggested you need some sort of incentive for people to keep their funds locked up.  You've killed their liquidity for days or weeks and will be guranteeing them a loss on the locked funds (albiet in practice probably an inconsequential amount).  So, what do they get in return, aside from a completed transaction?

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I'm not sure why I need to whitewash myself or sugar coat everything.

Because you're the sole avatar of this project and you're asking for a billion dollars...possibly billions?

I know I must sound like a ballbuster but crypto devs tend to exist in an echo chamber and often have an aspie level of focus on minutiae and sometimes fail to see the forest for the trees.  The positivity around here is fantastic and in truth this isn't really the venue for dissenting opinions.  My ultimate goal is to help strengthen the project by fostering alternative perspectives -- considering all the options.  At worst I make myself look like an ass and everyone gets a laugh.

I did explain why they can't create burner accounts... there is a reputation system. A new buyer would have to put up equal deposit. If there was news of some fool blowing up their money then people would start requesting higher deposits. In some cases they may want additional contact info. And when is the last time you set fire to $4?

A small $4 deposit isn't illogical, paying 5-10% to give your $4 to a middle man is illogical. Here you SAVE 5-10% easy on fees. Why wouldn't they use it. Granted we are not at the point to get "normies" in but crypto is a paradigm shift, be patient. We very well could see it happen.

Paying a fraction of a deposit on an item worth 4x for example they STILL lose. If the item is 100 dollars and they pay 25 dollar deposit you are forgetting the payment is ADVANCED too. So they had 125 in escrow, now they have overpaid 125 for a 100 dollar item. For them to fake build a reputation just to LOSE 25 dollars is totally retarded in my humble opinion. The second they default the next seller would not let them put 25% deposit the next seller would require 100% and if they did it again the next seller would want 200%... this person would go poor fast.

It's like you are trying to justify a person setting fire to their own money. You realize by the time a seller does 10 deals they have already made 100% on the saved fees if they average 10% the item value? The odds that some crazy person would start kamikaze is like not even 1/10,000

I think you aren't realizing there are still industries that NEED this. For example the cash for coins business, they need it. They get accounts frozen by coinbase, paypals reversed on localbitcoins, they have the money to put for a deposit and they need a trustworthy platform. This solves it. Then there is people who want to barter. They need this! Bartering under the bridge of trust, never having to touch fiat with the insurance of DDE. Also Telcom where people need to wire money from one country to another, the headache of escrow. These people have millions of dollars (I know, I've spoke to some)... finding the escrow and bank between countries is a big deal, insurance and other things is a hassle. We just cut out that cost and they get it all back after a short time doing business. It's like a solar panel, the deposit may be high but they start seeing major benefits in the future.

There is something you might not be seeing. The normies are not necessarily our target market. There is tons of niche markets that truly don't have trust and need this. They don't have other options. That is where this can start and it will evolve to get accepted by normies after the benefits are seen.

Also punishing both kids is justice, because in my analogy I made the mistake of putting you are a parent. But remove the parent. If two people lie, there is only 3 people that know, the culprit the victim and potentially god(depending on your beliefs). No judge or lawyer or jury knows, it is an utter waste of state resources, courts are dumb, cumbersome and their judgement are usually wrong. The punishment hardly ever fits the crime and victim-less crimes are consistently prosecuted usually against the innocent. This system solves that. It's meant to work even in absence of governments. It reduces the problem to only include the parties that matter. The two INVOLVED. This is far superior to including an arbiter who knows nothing literally has to guess. You should see that this is the perfect system and can't be improved. I will bet that an e-bay arbiter is wrong at least 50% of the time.

This isn't a platform just for e-bay sales. It's sales of goods, employment, barter, trade etc. This can enable binary options and hundreds of other things.

What is this about inflation? Crypto doesn't inflate.

I'm asking for a billion dollars??!??!? Wow you are totally wrong there. Dude anyone who knows me already knows I really am not even in crypto for the money. I'm in it for these ideologies. We think the project should be higher because of the feature list and that there is so many vapor products on the top 20. That's the only reason. Investors want to do well and it does make me happy seeing them do well.

Nah keep looking like an ass, it's appreciated. It's okay this type of dissent is how people learn. But like I said before. Play devils advocate only if you mean it because I'm not so sure the devil needs any more help.  Cheesy
552  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: BitBay OFFICIAL BITBAY Thread Smart Contracts Decentralized Markets Rolling Peg on: August 11, 2017, 11:14:33 AM
I don't know why you're calling me out with that sort of language.  I sincerely want this project to succeed.  I also don't think you quite understand my concerns as you don't address them directly.  I feel, in practice, no one will buy inexpensive items because it's silly to put down a deposit on a $4 item.  And I feel, in practice, no one will buy expensive items because putting a chunky deposit down might be out of possibility for many, or may seem absurd or unfair.  In a very real way, people are losing money by having it tied in limbo and I feel most understand that on a visceral level even if it's not something everyone can articulate.

Regarding a scamming buyer, whats to stop someone from opening burner accounts and getting a bit of rep with the intention of ripping off a seller who doesn't require a full deposit?  I didn't understand your response?

Who backs the bonds?  Who foots the bill if the bond buyer renegs?

I ask simply how can you deliver in practice, how does it work..and have yet to get a straight, concise answer that makes sense when applied to the chaos of real-world markets and irrational actors.

Where's the whitepaper?  For what passes as a whitepaper these days you can [and should] outline the broadstrokes for idiots like me.  Saying you don't want people to copy your work is a silly reason not to draft a whitepaper.  It's like that wannabe writer everyone knows who won't share his idea cause someone will steal it!!!  Roll Eyes  Fear of mimicry is really just the fear someone else will do it better.  It speaks to a lack of confidence in the execution.

If this thing is almost done why can't you or any of your myriad supporters explain how double deposit works in practice, and why people will choose to use it over existing players in this space.  Zero fees is a good place to start but it's not enough to entice the first wave of people IMO.

I'm not up on the etiquette around here...in fact it's a lack of general etiquette that keeps me away.  If this thread is merely to pat one another on the back then forgive my intrusion.  However I assumed this was a place to engage in informed discussion.  I'm not a rich person and chose to back this project with what few spare shekels I have because I found the goals relatable and respected the perseverance and seeming integrity of the dev.  Starting to feel like I've made a mistake.

Sorry but you initiated with poor etiquette. Regardless I'm happy to answer your questions. Again... I did respond we have had these types of questions before over the years. I'm not sure why I need to whitewash myself or sugar coat everything. This is a great system. Please forgive me if I was uncouth certainly wasn't my intention.

So to respond... there is a rep system. Why would nobody buy an inexpensive item? A small $4 deposit on a $4 item is perfectly fine. We have had tons of items sold this way. Also we have done in practice very large transactions up to 5,000 dollars. Mostly cash deals coins for cash. There is no company you can trust to properly handle cash deals as even Coinbase is known to shut down and confiscate funds. This works, it's peer to peer and makes theft profitless. And we have used it this way, successfully (we really need a testimonial video).

Now lets say you are involved in a 10k deal, even a deposit of 2500 should be no issue here. Everything revolves around the evidence of your previous deals.

For example, lets say you did 10 deals but lost the 11th. Okay so now that shows on the blockchain (not the contract but the explosion and public key)... people will know immediately you lost your last deal. They may require a higher bond. If you lose 2 deals in a row, then they may even demand higher bonds and so forth.

Okay you asked "who foots the bill"... nobody. This ELIMINATES middle men. There is no judge, no juror who by the way are usually wrong and just guess. There is no justice in this world we are trying to bring that back. When a contract blows up BOTH buyer and seller lose funds.

Think of this analogy, both of your children are fighting. One is lying but you can't find out who. So, you punish both. You kindly explain "I know one of you are telling me the truth and I think I know who it is, but this way both of you will know not to lie as it will never favor you. If I was to choose, then I might choose wrong and reward the one who lies so I reward neither in order to never incentivize a lie."

Nobody loses money by having funds in a contract, they get it back when the deal is over. As you said when it is in limbo it's really no big deal because their daily volume of sales will not usually exceed what they have in the bank. Power sellers who sell 1000s of items a year only maybe sell a few items a day, which based on their net would be nothing (probably not even 5% of the money in their bank).

A power seller would probably not be asked for a high deposit either even lessening that burden further. Think of this like a trust building exercise. We find two strangers, one is a thief one is honest. They enter traditional double deposit, the theif has no chance to win with a profit, he concedes to accept it. After the thief has done 1000 deals, well his deposit requirement may cut down to only 10%... but even so, he is STILL losing if he defaults.

There is really no profit incentive to cheat regardless of deposit levels. When I said "go into a DDE contract with me, if you think you have the guts to blow one up I challenge you to" it wasn't meant to put you off. On the contrary, you can see yourself the power of this system and sometimes seeing is believing. I certainly wouldn't blow up a contract(unless I was forced to) and to my knowledge no Bitbay contract has ever blown up.

Whitepaper is here:
https://davtonia.com/blackhalo/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/whitepaper_twosided.pdf

It's not on the site although thanks we should add it, this is my paper from 2014, I've been around for a long time man. BitHalo(my other software) was the first smart contracts on any blockchain a year before Ethereum.

I'm definitely NOT afraid of mimicry let along anything. It's been like this for a while now, we have a working product and it's just a matter of fact that crypto has no chargebacks, there is nobody to save people from theft. We have a solution, I think it should be the industry STANDARD. Consider almost 50% of all bitcoins have been stolen to 3rd party escrow hacks! Finally we have solved a problem challenging mankind for millennia. Do I expect it to change overnight? No, but I've been fighting until my fingers bleed to educate people on it. That is because it's for a cause bigger than myself. This definitely isn't about me. It's about an idea and "Ideas are bulletproof". It's important and it is a proposal to change how things are agreed to. Agreement is the foundation of almost everything in society. If we can just get that to favor honest people it would be an awesome shift in paradigm.

Nobody is really patting anyone on the back. Sure there are some very nice things said here and I fully appreciate it to the highest degree. And yes we have a very bullish and supportive community but they have been around for years. A lot of the people here could answer these questions on their own, they know it by heart.

So don't get the wrong impression my friend. I'm extremely busy and I will come by, answer things and sometimes put a new spin on my answer to show the various perspectives and angles to why this is such an important change. The community can answer these questions and they want to engage in debate (as long as it's not against people who have bad intentions) which I'm assuming your intentions are great. So yes please keep the questions coming. Nobody here is afraid of debate and it keeps us engaged and helps improve the product. Just realize when I'm here responding I'm not coding. So I have to do my job too.

FYI, if I don't answer, I'm busy coding or managing our slack so if someone wants to chime in please do.



553  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: BitBay OFFICIAL BITBAY Thread Smart Contracts Decentralized Markets Rolling Peg on: August 11, 2017, 03:25:47 AM
Does anyone else not see the issue with double deposits?  I was being a jerk about it a few posts back, but seriously who will put down double the money?  Think about it.  In this fast paced world who would want to lock up XX amount for days or weeks as an item is enroute?  Digital crypto transactions will have their place on bay, but methinks the marketplace will be the biggest draw.

So will the average person put down a double deposit on an item for $3.98?  No, because they're trying to get the best price and putting down $8 for something that costs $4 just doesn't make sense...

...I mean, yes, it does make sense to a rational, sane, smart person, but the market is none of those things.

And I'm sure as hell not going to put down $500 on a $500 item, just not happening.

...But wait, you say.  The deposit doesn,t have to be 100% all of the time?  Well great then an unscrupulous buyer will rack up a bit of rep purchasing junk, will rip a seller off (getting the item at a discount if the collateral isn't 100%) and then disappear.  Word of mouth would kill it.

These are just some of the glaring deficiencies I see with a collateral/deposit system.  100% collateral is offputting, anything less than 100% collateral invites fraud.

The feel good vibe around here is great...but I've been in more than one real life situation where a project looks great on paper but comes apart at the seams in execution all because obvious problems were glossed over in an effort to get it done.

They don't put down "double" the money, the term is a misnomer. If you are dealing with someone you don't trust they simply put a bond equal to the item value. If you are buying an item for $4 and don't have $4 for a deposit then you have a bigger problem.

Also you can do custom deposits. I'm sure you know and realize this. If you trust the buyer then let him put down $1 deposit on a $4 item. There is a reputation system and deposits are flexible. This is an attempt to fix a major problem in society. That's why I'm so stubborn. Let's make the world a little better.

An "unscrupulous buyer" who keeps blowing up deals will immediately be noticed(it shows on the chain). After two exploded deals people will start requiring higher bonds. And a fool and his money will soon be parted. He will go broke quick.  These are the types of morons we are attempting to eliminate. It's much better than rewarding him for scamming isn't it? If you want to hop on E-Bay and get a chargeback or an empty box more power to you. The odds of that are many times higher than you losing on this platform.

The only people who argue this are usually people who are difficult to begin with(playing devils advocate really doesn't need a reward, the devil needs no extra help) and the type of people who will find themselves losing on business deals. Also scammers tend to complain about this platform (i wonder why). Honest people need a part of society to trade with each other. That tiny little corner is here. If you are honest and want to join in please do.

If you feel like you can blow up an escrow I will happily join you in an unbreakable contract. We will see if you have the balls to do that.
554  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: BitBay OFFICIAL BITBAY Thread Smart Contracts Decentralized Markets Rolling Peg on: August 10, 2017, 09:19:33 PM
hello bitbay community  Smiley

my first post here I think. Been looking at the project for some time now have a small amount of bitbay and bought some more after reading the op. Still wondering if I should buy more but also still have lots of reading to do on the project.

I already saw lots of cool features that are working in the system. And when I see this from a technical view current prices make no sense. So what is going on? I get the feeling the budget for the project is not big? Is it via donations? Are there any plans for marketing? Cause this is a already working platform with all kind of features so why isnt it used? Why does so little people know about it? Bitbay should be more in the spotlight. Hype is a swear word to some but bitbay could use some I think. So many things overhyped but bitbay has something to show for no vaporware or just roadmaps.

The roadmap says that you are planning to make a mechanism the control the supply to meet demand in the future. For various reasons. Bit hard to understand, but if you are a trader or investor you dont want a stable price(maybe in the end). I get that as a seller or buyer you want the stability since they otherwise would have to sell every bitbay for bitcoin or something else. But here seems to be a contradiction ? traders wants volume and price swings and investors wants volume too because that attracts interest etc and price is more likely go higher in the end with ups and downs of course. So how will this work with this price stability mechanism?

Also is there any incentive why a higher price for bitbay would be needed if the platform would be more popular? Like you have with factom for example?

is it possible for someone that sells something and gets paid in bitbay to convert it to bitcoin? And sorry last lazy question why should people go for bitbays marketplace instead of openbazaar for example


also I also think that a nice lay out of the marketplace is important people are used to it and are expecting those things

thanks



Hey so the control of price is decentralized. This is a decentralized peg unlike Tether. And this peg can move up and down in price. This is similar to an economic "crawling peg". The idea is the supply is dynamic so unlike Bitcoin with it's inflation we can deflate by freezing coins. This allows us to defend against dumps. This is why so many investors who are economic buffs are so excited about this project.

The whole point of the peg is as demand rises the supply can do so organically. And if a pumper tries to go too far high they will lose if we inflate. So the community collectively controls this by competing for a price they think will fit best. They can vote via algorithm or custom.

We don't know why this isn't top 10 for that matter. We deal with a tremendous amount of adversity and propaganda. However, whatever we face we can overcome with spreading the word and marketing. As you said this is real so why would a vaporware product be above ours must be corrected. Tell friends show people this thing really works.

The BitBay serves as insurance for the deal with double deposit. So there is no reason you can't use these markets and pay in Bitcoin or even Fiat for that matter. We are a much, much better platform than open bazaar because these contracts don't have escrow. OB has to guess when someone lies in a dispute which will mean many sellers and buyers will get burned. We offer a solution to a real world problem... deception. The double deposit contracts force honesty by keeping it to the 2 parties involved with the deposit as the disincentive for breach.

And thanks, those were excellent questions.
555  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: BitBay OFFICIAL BITBAY Thread Smart Contracts Decentralized Markets Rolling Peg on: August 10, 2017, 12:26:10 AM
What happened to you guys?  This used to be a big part of my portfolio but I got out about a month ago.  I'm not trying to be negative I am just curious is all.  Sounded like a project with big potential but you guys aren't even top 100 anymore  Huh

Ethereum cut in 2/3 and so did a bunch of other coins. Look at the 3-6 month chart. The altcoin market is still very bullish a lot of new money is coming into Bitcoin.
556  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: BitBay OFFICIAL BITBAY Thread Smart Contracts Decentralized Markets Rolling Peg on: August 09, 2017, 08:23:50 AM
Yes, there are two reasons nobody wants to use BitBay to buy/sell something:
1. Horrible UI.
2. No one in his right mind will download the blockchain or try to learn what's "bootstrap". I mean common people, byers, not crypto enthusiasts.
Totally agree, had horrible experience with this

You have to download Ethereum blockchain to user their service and it's like 100 times the size of ours. We had an issue with Mac sync that was fixed in the recent build.

As for the UI... calling it "horrible" doesn't really tell me anything. We have a wizard, help boxes, tons of things including tutorial videos, templates etc.

What does it need fancy graphics or something? Should it sing to you? I mean in reality people use microsoft word and it doesn't have 3d animations and cater to every graphical need.

There is a difference between UX and UI. Our markets use a table but that's needed for when you change from Sales to Coins for Cash for example or when you switch to auctions. Each category changes the feel of the markets and the columns on the table.

We can get around sync but at the cost of your security and the security of the blockchain. I'm not sure we need that liability. However, it is a good idea and it's considered something to tackle. In BitHalo I don't make users download the chain. The problem is altcoins don't have access to things like API requests for unspent transactions. On chainz they make you get an API key so we need our own block explorer which requires multiple servers so users can know there is know their inputs and values are accurate. This is peoples money we are talking about, it's not a trivial thing.
Yes I meant fancy graphics or something. People got used to just click and go to beautiful sites where they can find everything they want. But OK, they learn about BitBay and that it has some advantages, they bother to install the software and wow, waiting to syncronise for a pair of days and watching the poor graphic design.
These two things work together. It would be great if at least one was changed: having a lite client or fancy graphics or anything solving this.
Bitbay is ready for a long time to accept traders, wasn't it so a year ago? But still sometimes I look and see noone there or a pair of coin offers from some community member.

Okay well you are right. And those two things are on the list. We need fancy graphics, the market table itself can be given a great style. Forms and buttons can be given style. Font's and so much can be altered. I would need a graphics guy to work with our skin in order to do that.

Currently we have the background transparency which looks okay. There is a nice gradient on the menu and various other things so we at least have something to build on.

"Fast sync" is one of the first things on the list. Just realize it will have to be optional because users sacrifice security when trusting a block explorer. Also, if too many people do it, then security is reduced and the chain is easier to attack.

So in order to set that up we would need multiple online block explorers similar to electrum. The next update is exotic spend and the fork, after that is templates. So this is already in my notes.
557  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: BitBay OFFICIAL BITBAY Thread Smart Contracts Decentralized Markets Rolling Peg on: August 08, 2017, 09:15:47 PM
What does BAY do, exactly?  The answer is nothing.

Hey so whenever a troll shows up, using a brand new account and says things that don't make sense just post the wall of features

http://www.bitbay.market/features

EDIT:
Judging from your earlier post history you claimed to be interested in BitBay...

"Taking an interest in this project.  I've familiarized myself with the client and things seem to work as they should" ~ Preventative.Measures

So why would you say that and a couple posts later say you downloaded it and it doesn't work. Why go from taking an interest to trolling? Sorry I didn't notice your comment history at first.

We have executed 1000s of contracts on this platform what are you even referring to?

Did you accept the Faucet contract with Craig? You asked me about the barrier to entry and I explained it to you.

You claim I'm getting defense however all I did was answer your questions in a cogent manner. I'm the coder okay and you claim I can't finish it alone. But do you realize we are almost done? You don't seem to realize there is very few blockchain coders in the world finding more coders isn't easy.
558  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: ⚒ Syscoin -Active Lightning Networks!Decentralized Business Blockchain Platform! on: August 08, 2017, 09:09:23 PM
I thought this was a Syscoin thread...

I'm sorry, I've been trying to leave this thread. If Sid wants to respond he can do it on another platform like hit me up on Skype. I only responded to Sid's comment and didn't expect to get trolled. But please post about Sys. I shouldn't have responded to the guy. You can delete all the comments if you want (and consider it off topic). And please forgive our community member for posting the info-graphic.
Hey man sorry just super busy I do want to discuss further and provide feedback on design decisions we took but we are having a developer.meetup this week so as you can imagine literally its eat sleep and whiteboard  for the entire week. If its not that im in code or got a hundred other things going on. The life of a CTO of a startup in crypto unfortunately takes away most if not l my time away from here, I think post bm web I will give ya a shout I have some ideas about your sidechain analysis. Good work though keep up with the grind it will pay off.

Thanks and good luck on Sys and everything you do. I wish you the utmost success. I can definitely imagine you are busy beyond all sense however if you ever wanna chat you know where to find me.
559  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: BitBay OFFICIAL BITBAY Thread Smart Contracts Decentralized Markets Rolling Peg on: August 08, 2017, 03:07:29 PM
lol ouch...man, bitbay still going eh?  why bother.  i wish you luck though, but imo she's a goner (since awhile).

Why bother? Because investors deserve the software they came for. It's not a goner if there is a 25-50 million dollar marketcap and 50k to 500k of daily organic volume. We don't fake volume like some of the other coins.

Also the software has the most features of anything else out there. This thing really works. Download it and see for yourself. Can you explain why it's not above Dogecoin? Dogecoin doesn't do anything. Why do so many honest projects fall below vaporware?

Anyways thanks for the good luck.
560  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: BitBay OFFICIAL BITBAY Thread Smart Contracts Decentralized Markets Rolling Peg on: August 08, 2017, 03:02:10 PM
Yes, there are two reasons nobody wants to use BitBay to buy/sell something:
1. Horrible UI.
2. No one in his right mind will download the blockchain or try to learn what's "bootstrap". I mean common people, byers, not crypto enthusiasts.
Totally agree, had horrible experience with this

You have to download Ethereum blockchain to user their service and it's like 100 times the size of ours. We had an issue with Mac sync that was fixed in the recent build.

As for the UI... calling it "horrible" doesn't really tell me anything. We have a wizard, help boxes, tons of things including tutorial videos, templates etc.

What does it need fancy graphics or something? Should it sing to you? I mean in reality people use microsoft word and it doesn't have 3d animations and cater to every graphical need.

There is a difference between UX and UI. Our markets use a table but that's needed for when you change from Sales to Coins for Cash for example or when you switch to auctions. Each category changes the feel of the markets and the columns on the table.

We can get around sync but at the cost of your security and the security of the blockchain. I'm not sure we need that liability. However, it is a good idea and it's considered something to tackle. In BitHalo I don't make users download the chain. The problem is altcoins don't have access to things like API requests for unspent transactions. On chainz they make you get an API key so we need our own block explorer which requires multiple servers so users can know there is know their inputs and values are accurate. This is peoples money we are talking about, it's not a trivial thing.
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