Bitcoin mining is not a guarantee of profit, only a guarantee of income. People buying mining equipment are exactly like investors buying stock in a company, speculating that they will make more money than they spent. You could have bought a bond (no real comparision, but could substitute BTC here) instead, and had a fair guarantee of income. You could also have just kept mining with whatever equipment you had until electricity costs made it no longer worthwhile and definitely had profit.
missed the nail on this one. we are talking about hardware vendors here - not the 'industry' as a whole. we are not investors in any BTC hardware company when we order hardware. if we were we would have equity stakes and privileges associated with that. in this context the only thing that should be guaranteed (by laws and regs) is that a hardware product purchased by a customer is delivered as advertised (including the time frame). if customers are not receiving the products they should be in, the time that they should, then these forums are one of several means of recourse for customers to use against fraudulent, incompetent, or otherwise non-performing hardware vendors. No, I actually didn't. I'm talking about the equipment investment and whichever company you buy from doesn't matter. Maybe comparing the purchase of equipment to stock in a company was wrong, yet the premise remains solid. You are speculating that the equipment you are purchasing will make you more money than you spent. Now, if you want to compare companies, then you have to liken it to horse racing. You're betting your horse will come in first, and if it doesn't you lose. From your statement, you are obviously referring to BFL. Considering their track record with the FPGA, anyone who took the time to read up on them would realize this horse is a long shot. Betting on the long shot can win big, but more often than not, you lose. In my case, I already knew the horse had lost, so my bet was that they would still finish the race. At the time I made my purchase I had 2 choices... $250 per .333MH or $274 for 5GH. I already had several GPUs running, so I felt the $274 was a better investment even though I figured I would not see it for a long time. I compared 13M difficulty, 28% growth (which the network was at the time) and 5GH. Going with the USB, this would cost me $3,750 for 5GH and after one year I would be at a loss of $613. That sold me... it was better to possibly lose $274 than it was to definitely lose $613. umm, ya, and missed again. i'm not sure what the purpose is for all of your attempted analogies and metaphors but they are not relevant. the personal stories are cute, but again irrelevant. nobody is saying that the BTC world is not risky, and of course one has to make an educated guess as to where best to put his/her money - which sometimes works out well and sometimes not. what is the core of the thread and quoted OP is if this sub-forum is a acceptable location for customers of poor/non performing hardware vendors to share experiences, ask pointed questions, and sometimes just vent. then to try to come up with method(s) to minimize the impact of that to other vendors who are performing well or have not yet missed a mark. so please comment directly - do you think that customers of poorly performing vendors should have 'free speech' in this sub-forum (excluding threats of personal or property harm and such of course)? In reality you are comparing apples to oranges, yet I will answer you in full. Whether you are a customer of a company that is performing well or poorly, you should be allowed to post your experiences and within reason your thoughts. I posted my thoughts above because THAT is how I made my decision for the purchase I made after having done a lot of research through the older posts on this very forum. The people who feel they must then call me names and deride me for my decision are producing nothing more than a dark atmosphere that will prevent future posters from speaking their minds in fear of getting the same treatment. That type of 'free speech' should be curtailed as it produces nothing. If someone were to offer a well reasoned argument and detail why they felt my decision was wrong, I would look at their comments and research them and come to a new conclusion based on that and let them know why I either agreed or disagreed with them and list the points. If you took the time to read though the majority of my postings, you'd notice that, as my signature states, the worse you treat me, the worse I respond. I have earned the emnity of many and the respect of few, but their opinion of me matters not to me, as I am secure in who I am. I personally love an intelligent debate, and this sub-forum would be a wondrus place if that was what we conducted here. Sadly, with the anonymity the internet provides, you have people lashing out like they never would in a face to face meeting. The problem then becomes where to draw the line. Unless everyone agrees, it will just fuel the fire. |
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Take it off thread bcp and read the rules in the OP. If necessary I will lock and recreate as a self moderated thread.
Then I suggest you do just that... *I* am the only person you have warned even though some others have done pretty much the same. The difference is THEY are anti-BFL and that is all that matters. I don't even HAVE a BFL hat on at the moment, but you have pre-judged me and are warning only me. |
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I'm very skeptical of the claim that BFL produced 75% of the network increase in the last month. While ASICMiner's share of the network has dropped, I don't think it has dropped as much as it would have had they not been bringing a substantial amount of hashing power online. 100TH has also been coming online for the last month or so, and I think between the two of them they probably make up the bulk of the hash rate increase. It's a good idea to overshoot these estimates for the sake of calculating profitability, but I suspect that the 6-8x multiplier used for the BFL calculations is probably more like a 3-4x.
In either case, it is very clear that BFL has oversold their units well beyond the point of their own customers being profitable even if they were the only ASIC company out there, which is a very shady and nasty thing to do. I just don't see how they will last another generation of ASIC production given this track record. Many have talked about BFL being a scam of one form or another; while I just think it'd be far too elaborate a scam to actually fab chips and put out these products only to cut and run cashing out on their 28nm vaporware, watching them go under before shipping all of their preorders from Gen 1 seems like a real possibility. The effect for customers who lose their preorder money is the same of course...
You talk as though no other company would have done this. If you simply open your eyes, you'll see that most of the companies operating at this time are doing the same thing. Network hash rate is poised to skyrocket... while I will be shouted down since everyone thinks I am a shill and too ignorant to think for myself, I have alarm bells going off over the companies that claim they will guarantee a 90 day RoI. If the network jumps by a factor of 4-8 over the next 2 months like a lot of people are predicting, that means those companies will have to then increase their product hash rate by that same 4-8 times which will then turn around an put an even bigger strain on the network. Personally, if *I* wanted to scam people, I'd dangle that 'guaranteed RoI' in people's faces and then vanish in the night a month later. So, shout me down, call me a shill and a sock-puppet and an ignorant fool... time WILL tell. |
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Bitcoin mining is not a guarantee of profit, only a guarantee of income. People buying mining equipment are exactly like investors buying stock in a company, speculating that they will make more money than they spent. You could have bought a bond (no real comparision, but could substitute BTC here) instead, and had a fair guarantee of income. You could also have just kept mining with whatever equipment you had until electricity costs made it no longer worthwhile and definitely had profit.
missed the nail on this one. we are talking about hardware vendors here - not the 'industry' as a whole. we are not investors in any BTC hardware company when we order hardware. if we were we would have equity stakes and privileges associated with that. in this context the only thing that should be guaranteed (by laws and regs) is that a hardware product purchased by a customer is delivered as advertised (including the time frame). if customers are not receiving the products they should be in, the time that they should, then these forums are one of several means of recourse for customers to use against fraudulent, incompetent, or otherwise non-performing hardware vendors. No, I actually didn't. I'm talking about the equipment investment and whichever company you buy from doesn't matter. Maybe comparing the purchase of equipment to stock in a company was wrong, yet the premise remains solid. You are speculating that the equipment you are purchasing will make you more money than you spent. Now, if you want to compare companies, then you have to liken it to horse racing. You're betting your horse will come in first, and if it doesn't you lose. From your statement, you are obviously referring to BFL. Considering their track record with the FPGA, anyone who took the time to read up on them would realize this horse is a long shot. Betting on the long shot can win big, but more often than not, you lose. In my case, I already knew the horse had lost, so my bet was that they would still finish the race. At the time I made my purchase I had 2 choices... $250 per .333MH or $274 for 5GH. I already had several GPUs running, so I felt the $274 was a better investment even though I figured I would not see it for a long time. I compared 13M difficulty, 28% growth (which the network was at the time) and 5GH. Going with the USB, this would cost me $3,750 for 5GH and after one year I would be at a loss of $613. That sold me... it was better to possibly lose $274 than it was to definitely lose $613. |
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Can you show that the BTC you had last June and every BTC you earned from then until now was never spent, or IF spent, that you ended up with more BTC from having spent it?
Not definitively, no. Captain Hindsight says "You should probably have kept the BTC in retrospect" however. I fully agree, but that is my point, how many people had that foresight? |
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Bingo.
I waded through pages on BS to find that I should have just read the last page.
The vendors currently have WAY too much bargaining power, to the point where buyers are at best investors and at worst losers with no legal recourse. This forum serves buyers primarily because against such malpractices the only means of effective recourse is sharing of information.
Not doing much of anything is a factor of causality. How? When the forum organizes itself to vote 1000 votes in overwhelming majority to label a certain vendor, what the forum goers are saying is that they would rather stop hating and let the common consensus have their say (sounds terribly bitcoin doesn't it?). The point of this is to clear up the hatred, and waste of space. At the same time it is a very effective means of getting the vendors to clean up their act. Done. Solution right there on your lap. Ready and waiting. For eternity.
So. When the proposition arises that we should stop all the hate and how, I find it terribly odd that only after 8 pages of post has somebody dared to point the finger squarely at the OP.
Or to put in more directly, just do what you're supposed to. If you can't then set up a sub forum for somebody who can.
You've actually hit the nail on the head, but refuse to see it. Bitcoin mining is not a guarantee of profit, only a guarantee of income. People buying mining equipment are exactly like investors buying stock in a company, speculating that they will make more money than they spent. You could have bought a bond (no real comparision, but could substitute BTC here) instead, and had a fair guarantee of income. You could also have just kept mining with whatever equipment you had until electricity costs made it no longer worthwhile and definitely had profit. With all the different companies racing to put their product into play, it comes down to whether you bet on the right horse or not. While Avalon did beat BFL to market and the people betting on them won big, but only 1500 people maximum could take that bet... the others lost out. In addition, the people who bought ASICMiner shares at .1 also made out like bandits with the share price dangling around 5BTC not long ago. BUT, how many of those original shareholders still had shares when it hit that high? I count myself lucky as I got into the ASMICMiners shares at 2.4 and sold a majority of them at 4.8 and then the remainder of them at 3.7. With the price back at 2.4, I won, but whoever bought my shares didn't. I've never spent a single BTC I've earned, I've invested some and won big, I've invested some and lost, in the long run I have well over 2x what I would have had I sat on everything I mined. My profit though was someone else's loss. There is no way to get around that. |
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Heh, what a tool.
Are you completely incapable of having discourse without resorting to insults when a counterpoint does not fit your narrative ? There is no need for that final snipe. Evolve, Josh. To be fair, Josh has to argue that receiving less than you paid is good, and that waiting a really long time for your stuff is also good. Don't give him too hard a time, it is a very difficult position to defend. You and I had a similar discussion a while back, so let me ask again the question (slightly modified) you never answered: Can you show that the BTC you had last June and every BTC you earned from then until now was never spent, or IF spent, that you ended up with more BTC from having spent it? |
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its all about luck my celeron found 2 block in 2 days, i5 none  I highly agree. Since switching to -hp10 I've found 9 blocks between 5 computers... both Core2Quads and both i5's have found at least 1... my i7 has struck out. |
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He was invited personally by Josh to visit BFL and determine for himself the truth of things, so ON HIS OWN, he decided to stop the presses and wait until he made his visit and found out first hand what was going on. Just cause you are too lazy to find out the truth though, you assume someone bullied him into being quiet.
<insults snipped>
This is what the community has been agitating for. Transparency. Many of us have lived through this list: List of Major Bitcoin Heists, Thefts, Hacks, Scams, and LossesWhen a company fails to deliver, they don't get a free pass anymore. The company gets raked over the coals now, because the number of people who have been ripped off at some point in the Bitcoin ecosystem has grown large enough that they cannot be shouted down by a few white knights anymore. Look at how fast the tables turned on Avalon. Early on in Bitcoin, people were naive. Now, there are a lot more people with burned fingers. There are a lot more people in general. Now, when white knights mount a defense on the forums, it erupts into a conflagration that grows rather than subsides. The rise in the number of threads is due to an increase in population of the Bitcoin community as much as an increase in vendor hate. Also, since most mining is done by ASICs now, all modern mining information is either in the Custom Hardware or the Group Buys. Custom Hardware needs to be split up into subforums that can serve as proper homes for the different sorts of discussions. You do make very good points. The bitcoin community is very much in the "Burn me once shame on you, burn me twice and I'm going ballistic" frame of mind nowadays. Your 'white knights' have dwindled though (mostly through being repeatedly shouted down) and anymore it seems anyone standing up for any questionable company become a target for unwarranted attacks, derision and out-right flames. It'd be nice if things could change, but only time will tell. |
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Invariably, the answer will be the second option, even though that person could have increased their BTC holdings by 40x! Very few people want BTC for BTC sake, they want BTC for what value it provides in their local currency. Again, you may be different, but you are in a very tiny, miniscule minority.
Hey Josh, while I realize this is a bit off-topic to this discussion, PG locked the other thread. I was wondering, since you invited him to come look around and he is kind of an oppenent in regards to you and BFL, I live about 4 hours away and could, with your permission, run down and 'tag along' during the tour. That way you'd have people from 'both sides' present. I'm semi-retired and my schedule is very flexible. Let me know. |
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This is strange because I bought my Avalon unit with BTC and my goal was to get more BTC and I was successful. But I'm probably only a stupid miner.
Yes, but can you do it again and again and again? Anyone can get lucky once. |
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I just now found this thread. Don't know how I missed it. Only read the OP to date.
Just to let everybody know that I will significantly tone down my vapid, vacuous, vile verbiage.
Im guessing your the informous PG i been told about. Looks like you do bow down to smack tards which is what i presumed (mother of all fuck ups). Some dude with 19 at the end of his name told me you agreed to disagree with him on how retarded he is, What does that make you? Sorry dude, Facts are facts! Sadly, people just like you are why this thread got started. Since you seem to have been gone and missed a lot, you sure make a lot of assumptions on things you clearly have no knowledge of. PG there has had something like 5 anti-BFL threads running for quite some time. He was invited personally by Josh to visit BFL and determine for himself the truth of things, so ON HIS OWN, he decided to stop the presses and wait until he made his visit and found out first hand what was going on. Just cause you are too lazy to find out the truth though, you assume someone bullied him into being quiet. The only person that can Muzzle PG is PG... too bad you do not have the intelligence to understand that on your own. Now, please stop adding to the hate and leave. |
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can you mine terracoin or ppcoin with these?
yes |
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Presumptions presumptions. Did i state friend, No, I just stated i know them. I did not say HOW i knew them. I didn't even state HOW I KNOW MYSELF! So your making a lot of presumptions is all i can say.
I'm not stupid enough to have faith in the 'LEGAL' system and do not take part in 'the system' as much as possible. To do good things, sometimes you have to be bad! This is a fact that is lost on most people like yourself!
Since I have not been, am not currently, nor ever likely to be a criminal, I disagree that sometimes you have to do bad to do good. That to me sounds like a dishonest person trying to vindicate criminal actions. You are claiming that you know of a fairly major crime, yet since you don't want to see the lawbreakers punished, you also commit a crime and cover it up. Dishonesty breeding even more dishonesty. You know the honest person's response to someone saying "It looks too good to be true"? "It most likely is". I asked several people I personally know and respect, this question... "If you were offered a lifetime warranty how long you take that to be?". I got replies ranging from "whose lifetime?" to "That depends on the wording" to a legal definition "The life of a product on the market." This same question asked of the average joe on the street ended up getting "MY LIFETIME!" as the most popular answer. I personally cannot find any justification for breaking the law. |
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BFL shipped MANY mini rigs to a couple of people who got together early on and essentially blackmailed BFL to send them there rigs. I know this is FACT! I can't give you proof without compromising people (Guess who's side i'm on) but i tell you, THEY SHIPPED A LOT OF MINI RIGS TO THESE PEOPLE!
So, by your own words, you are saying BFL has indeed shipped more TH than most people think? But since they, as you put it, got blackmailed, they shipped out of order? That's a pretty serious accusation. Too bad you won't prove it, you really could help those wanting to sue the company. I don't grass people to the powers that be that used there brains! THey saw them for what they were and took the appropriate action! I'm sorry but i'm on there side and its an un written rule, YOU DON'T GRASS! NO MATTER WHAT!!!! So, sadly the company you claim is such a criminal enterprise will continue in your words to rip off the masses, simply because you will not "grass". Gotcha. You thick or something, I PERSONALLY AM NOT INVOLVED but the people who are WILL GET DRAGGED DOWN WITH BFL, Because of a 3rd party (myself in this instance) GRASSES THEM UP! Ruining there lives as well. You sir need to realise how things work before in the real world before calling me out, On what your calling me out on i don't know either. Point is, BFL operate a cowboy company and deserve everything thats coming to them! /END CONVERSATION! I am neither thick nor stupid. YOU'RE the one who just STUPIDLY admitted your friends COMMITTED a FELONY by blackmailing a company.. This makes your friends WORSE than BFL, but since they are your friends, you cannot let them take the consequences for their actions, so you allow BFL, a company in your OWN words to be a raging criminal enterprise, to remain in business so that your crooked friends do not also goto jail. By your own admission, you have aided and abetted this crime by not reporting it. This makes you a criminal at least in the same league as Sonny. |
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How PEONMINER(me) feels when he comments on ANY thread.
 I guess you are correct.  |
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BFL shipped MANY mini rigs to a couple of people who got together early on and essentially blackmailed BFL to send them there rigs. I know this is FACT! I can't give you proof without compromising people (Guess who's side i'm on) but i tell you, THEY SHIPPED A LOT OF MINI RIGS TO THESE PEOPLE!
So, by your own words, you are saying BFL has indeed shipped more TH than most people think? But since they, as you put it, got blackmailed, they shipped out of order? That's a pretty serious accusation. Too bad you won't prove it, you really could help those wanting to sue the company. I don't grass people to the powers that be that used there brains! THey saw them for what they were and took the appropriate action! I'm sorry but i'm on there side and its an un written rule, YOU DON'T GRASS! NO MATTER WHAT!!!! So, sadly the company you claim is such a criminal enterprise will continue in your words to rip off the masses, simply because you will not "grass". Gotcha. |
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Well ASICMiner just gave mini rig buyers a punch in the gut.
Buy from BFL in August 2012. 1 mini-rig 1.5 TH/s @ 3000 BTC
Buy from ASICMiner in August 2013. 20 Eruptor Blades 1.5 TH/s @ 420 BTC
So buy from ASICMiner a year later, no pre-order stress, product will ship in days, spend 86% less, get the same hashing power and receive it sooner.
Things move fast in the mining world so specs only matter if the company can deliver as advertised when advertised. Those that trusted BFL @ 65nm paid the price, now they want to tell you 28nm will be different.
20? Maximum speed of 12.829GHash/s with overclocking and proper cooling. 20 * 13 = 260. Are you thinking of Avalon? |
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BFL shipped MANY mini rigs to a couple of people who got together early on and essentially blackmailed BFL to send them there rigs. I know this is FACT! I can't give you proof without compromising people (Guess who's side i'm on) but i tell you, THEY SHIPPED A LOT OF MINI RIGS TO THESE PEOPLE!
So, by your own words, you are saying BFL has indeed shipped more TH than most people think? But since they, as you put it, got blackmailed, they shipped out of order? That's a pretty serious accusation. Too bad you won't prove it, you really could help those wanting to sue the company. |
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