What an utterly boring game. Such an anti climax, especially considering the amazing turnarounds both teams made in the semis even with weakened teams. Completely dull up until the last 20 minutes when Spurs decided to wake up but once Liverpool got the second it was obviously all over but their performance was still also lackluster. Only three shots on target from them the whole game and none from Firmino, Mane & Salah (not counting the penalty which I thought was harsh as well). Firminho should have been subbed off much earlier. Barely noticed him on the pitch. Looks like he wasn't 100% to me.


Probably was the highlight to be honest. TV channels don't show it because obviously nudity but also because if they give people the attention they want, especially on such a global platform, everyone will start doing it.

I didn't see what she was wearing but turns out it was youtuber Vitaly again. I think he streaked the last final along with the World Cup. He was probably banned from this one so sent a girl instead.

Probably a net negative imho if we're talking just the marketplace. It seems to be used majorly by scammers in there. Maybe admins should look at other alternatives. What about only certain ranks can self-moderate threads in the marketplace??? Is there any reason to allow brand new Newbie Members to be able to do so especially when most of them are scammers??? I don't think that would be huge inconvenience to new users and I'd say the majority of new users utilizing the feature will just be scammers in the first place. Maybe make users earn the right to self-moderation??? Perhaps make it so you have to be a Member and up. Not so easy to get your account to Member status but anyone can create a new disposable Newbie account which they will abandon if it gets red tagged. Scammers may be less inclined to waste their precious Member accounts and the ten merit it takes to be one.
 

Sparta may have been real but that film was mostly fantasy.

I couldn't say. Depends on numerous factors, but if Pep would have gone to Manchester United instead of Mou I think he wouldn't have done any better or worse than Mou. Winning the Champions League isn't the only mark of a great manager either though obviously it's a huge deal. Apparently the Pep to Juve rumors have been rubbished by City today but I guess they could be lying or just wishful thinking as they really wont want to let him go.


I really doubt they'll kick them out. They'll probably at worst fine them a load of money which City will happily pay. They know the Champions League is too valuable to both them and City to not have them in it.

Adults lie too. Sometime they force their beliefs on others as well. Sometimes they will want to influence their children or others in a certain way for their own political beliefs. Just look at the controversy about what techshare posted above. Some people are going to abuse children with this and that's who we should be protecting. I don't care whether someone is gay or trans or not but if you're constantly telling your child from the day it can talk or start to understand things that it's totally ok for you to 'change' gender or be something that it's not then that's going to cause a lot of confusion and more people will start to have gender dysphoria because of this. If you raise your child to be a racist or that it's okay to be a racist then it'll probably grow up to be a racist or thinking that its okay. If you're raising your child gender neutral then it'll probably grow up to be confused about gender. There's a real reason why this whole gender fluid and trans movement has grown in recent years and it's not just because people are magically waking up to it and are suddenly realizing this is what they are or were all along. It's because people see online and in the media that they can be something else if they want and they latch on to it for whatever personal reasons or mental issues they have. A lot of these people just seem like huge attention whores with victim complexes and this is one more thing they can choose to be offended about, not that they actually are a non-binary gender fluid trans bisexual or whatever. Why has this whole gender fluid movement only really just happened or become prevalent over the last five years or so and why hasn't it been something that has been an issue since the dawn of mankind? It's seems purely an internet-age malady of the snowflake generation to me.

It's like if you suddenly start teaching people that it's ok to be trans-racial and that becomes accepted then over the next ten years there'll be a whole load of people coming out as trans racial even though before they probably never considered such thing at all before and they probably never had a single thought that they could be anything different. Look at the whole Rachel Dolezal thing. She literally claimed to be black when she's not. It's ridiculous what she's claiming. I think she just wanted to identify with something and found love and belonging in the black community and hence why she pretends to be one. Sames goes for the LGBTQ community. There's also strong speculation that Shaun King isn't even black as well. For these people they just seem to want to latch onto a minority for whatever insecurities they have. For some people they just want to be different or have some sort of thing to be marginalized or discriminated for and if you're not an ethnic minority you can now be transracial so you have something to complain about and feel victimized for. It's going to get silly very fast.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gKxtXzAgGew



It's like Idiocracy all over again.


Sometimes it is if we're to believe the gender fluid people. Some people even argue there's no such thing as gender or that its entirely a social construct (which I don't agree with) so it can't be both. Not everyone claims they've always felt that way either.


This is literally the case with gender fluid people. They're whatever gender they feel like when they wake up that day and we're expected to keep up with their pronouns just so we don't damage a snowflake on its way back down to earth. Also, If its ingrained in who you are then why do so many people decide they're trans later in life. I'm not arguing that there aren't people who are confused about their gender from childhood but I think there are a whole load more people who make the decision or have the realization later in life.  



There's a lot of hysteria coming from both the right and left, but I think the people causing the most hysteria are the 'trans' people themselves forcing their beliefs on others and that we have to submit to their whims or demands. One of their debate tactics is just to shout and scream the loudest to drown out opinions they don't like and have people de-platformed or banned whenever they can. The far left is verging on fascism the way they're going and that's not something we should to tolerate. I'm all open to debate on issues but neither side should be shutting people down or just shouting over them to make their point.

I was mostly the same. I have both good, great, slightly intimidating and scary memories of going to football matches as a kid and I was obsessed with both playing and watching football as a child and it was my life up into my mid teens, but I lost interest quickly and found more enjoyment in girls and various arts and educational things. The sunday league team I played for actually won a couple of our county leagues. We even had a couple of players that got scouted for some professional youth teams but none of them ever made it past that. Football fanaticism to me is like something you expect most people to grow out of like wrestling, but many seem to get more radical as they get older. Don't get me wrong, I love to watch the big games but I don't really care who wins. I understand the escapism and tribalism, but ultimately to me it's just shallow and hollow behind the surface powered by the cogs of corporations and all they care about is profit and trophies they can boast about to their corporate buddies and the players are their pawns in that game and the fans finance it and I can't see past that now. I don't even really support my 'home' club any more and I just don't think I could ever find passion for them again. It's become like a new age religion for people, or more like a cult or something, but religion is something I also outgrew as I can see past the facade. I guess like religion most people don't want to put too much thought into the realities of it and just go with the flow to make their life a bit more enjoyable or comfortable and there's nothing wrong with that (Unless people start getting violent about it) but it's like once you've had your eyes open you can't really unsee the truth. Maybe I've become cynical in my old age but it just doesn't really mean anything to me any more other than purely entertainment.

I'll still enjoy the game as a spectator but I don't really care who wins though I do like to root for the underdog. I would rather have Liverpool won the league than City but I don't really care who wins the Champions league as long as it's a great game, but the fact that it's two English teams puts a bit of a dampener on it to me as it just makes it like another Premier League game really. I'm edging more towards Liverpool for the win as I like Klopp a lot, but that's basically all it comes down to for me.

I like gambling and watching it too but that's all it is for me, mindless entertainment, but it's become a religion for people when in reality it's just like watching a big budget movie with huge souleslly corporations behind it selling the punters the same old thing just refreshed a little to keep them watching (How many superhero movies do we really need that all follow the same formula). To me there's not much excitement in watching the same big teams prevail and win games where you know the outcome just like superhero movies (the good guys always win everytime).


I don't think he will leave just yet, but just like Ronaldo it's an easy and riskless move for him. Loads more money and he can easily add to his trophy cabinet by joining another one of the biggest and best clubs in the world and one where they hardly ever lose the title. Going from great team to great team proves nothing about Pep (or any other big manager). Go to a team that's slightly outside the top two like Athletico or either Milans or Marseille or Lyon or something then win them the titles then we can call you great. Pep going to Juve, PSG or even back to Barca or Bayern is just going to be boring.


It's rarely a deal breaker for clubs though obviously it's something all world class teams strive for. Lets face it, only one club out of the entire Europe can win it and there's plenty of supposed world class managers so they cant and shouldnt all be sacked at once just for failing to win it especially when its so difficult and competition is as strong as its ever been.

I haven't been to a football game in ages partly because of the price but also the atmosphere. I've seen kids crying their eyes out because of all the degeneracy and shouting and swearing and fighting in the stands.  I don't even watch the games in pubs any more. Too many louts smashing pint glasses every time a goal goes the other way. Fully grown men behaving like children. It's embarrassing.


There are countries where you can buy land very cheap, but I'm pretty sure Thailand has strict rule about foreigners owner land/properties and businesses there. They usually have to get their thai wife or ladyboy lover to buy them in their name lolol. I bet that ends up badly in most cases.


Buy a nice TV set up and stay at home and watch it in glorious 4k instead, Eat all the snacks and drinks you want at about 80% cheaper as well and you don't have to worry about being punched in the face or doused in someone elses beer.


Liverpool are by far the favorites in most places I've seen. The odds will drop if Kane is 100% playing. Personally I wouldn't bet on the outright market here. I'd go for goals and a lot of cards. Could get heated.


Money money money. All UEFA and FIFA care about is money and keeping their sponsors happy so they give them the best seats and luxury boxes so they can impress their clients and sidechicks. Most of them will probably get sold on in the secondary market as well because the value of them will be sky high so genuine fans will have to pay extortionate amounts just to see the game.

Pep didn't do that. His squad of world class players did. I think managers are overrated. Let's be honest, who couldn't win something with Barca or Man City? Let Pep go to a struggling team and see how well he does then. Let's see if he can get a none-league team into the Championship or even Premier League. Then I will call him great. He'd be nothing without hundreds of millions to spend and a squad already worth half a billion. Money has tarnished football for me. The Premier League is great to watch but where's the glory in watching a team built on foreign money with foreign players? Supporting your local team is irrelevant now as what relation are they to you other than in name? If some billionaire buys out your club, buys half the best players in the world then starts winning trophies is that something to be proud about? Isn't that essentially just cheating? It's like soccer's own doping scandal, but instead of using drugs they just use money and loopholes and buy the best players and you know they'd go to any team as long as the wages are big enough. Ronaldo and Neymar would probably go to Tranmere Rovers if you gave them a million a week. Who is going to be the next big club to top City? It's just the luck of  what investors  pick which club. City are arguably one of the biggest and if not best team on the planet right now but they weren't' before all the oil money. They were nobodies. I just can't see how you could make it more fairer but the FIFA financial rules are a joke. I doubt they'll deny City the CL. They'll just fine them a shitload and it's more money for them and City will pay it with no complaints. Not much different from racketeering if so. They should look into how many foreigners you could have on the pitch at once as well. Then let's see how great City are and everyone else. I wonder what the leagues would look like if you could only have x amount or even all players that were born within your city. Then that would give you something to be proud of when your team win something. Smaller clubs just don't have a chance. It's going to be really boring if City just win the league over and over like how United dominated in the late 90s and early 00s. There really needs to be a sea change in how football clubs can operate but when all the governing bodies care about is making money then I can't see it happening.


  Silly money. It's probably just cheaper to bribe FIFA to win the CL.

I'd like Liverpool to win a trophy but I'm not so sure they will. I think City have the Premier League in the bag now unless they slip up against United. That may be the game the title all comes down to. I don't think Liverpool will be able to beat Barca either, though I would like them to win both titles. It's surely going to be an exciting run to watch in both competitions.


Agreed. Tottenham and Ajax would seem fairly evenly matched imho but with them having Kane and Son out I'd back Ajax. So looking like a Barca Ajax final to me, but I don't think Ajax will beat Barca but they will certainly have the underdog fighting spirit.

I think this is more a situation of wether the forum population thinks this is advertising a shady exchange and whether you're ok taking money from a [potentially] shady website to promote it. I can't comment on your reputation as a manager or the exchange because I'm not that familiar with either, but using the spam the campaign will cause to try get the job seems a bit iffy to me though its good you've brought it up here for discission.


Wouldn't this be like saying there's always going to be drug cartels so I might as well do their admin and promotion for them because someones got to do it even if I don't [maybe an xtreme example but as above I think this is more a discussion about whether yobit should be promoted rather than anything else].


There's surely not just one option here. Can't the admins shut down these sorts of campaigns? Surely they can't be allowed to just spam everything everywhere??? Isn't this something the forum staff should be dealing with and prohibiting it it's such a big issue???


Maybe you running it is the lesser of two evils but you would obviously be very biased here because I'm assuming there's money on the line for you and youre not going to be running it for free.

I made comments in another similar thread abut yobit for further reading = https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5133795.msg50691004#msg50691004

Does anyone think Liverpool could have some trouble at Cardiff tomorrow? Cardiff desperately need to win to avoid relegation and a win would take them out of the relegation zone and just above Brighton on goal difference (who they beat away last week). I think Liverpool still should beat them but Cardiff aren't going to go down without a fight.

I think you've answered your own question here. I don't know the extent of the accusations with this particular exchange and how much truth there is to them or not but they seem to be quite distrusted by the community. If the claims are accurate then I don't think people should be advertising for them because they're making the problem worse. People should be made aware of the issues surrounding the exchange and why supporting them is bad. If people are happy to promote a scam exchange then I think negative feedback would be acceptable. My feedback means nothing though so I would leave that to the DT big bois.


No, that's not the issue. The issue would be advertising a scammy or shady website. There are a certain type of person that will advertise anything as long as there's money on the line. These people have no morals and just want to line their pockets at whatever the cost.You could be the forums greatest poster but if you'd happily promote a scam because you're being paid to you would have little morals imho. I'm sure many people are glad that there's a campaign they can easily jump on but you have to look at the bigger issue here and that's promoting spam and [potential] scams.

Fantastic game last night for neutrals. I was on the edge of my seat till the last moment. Couldn't believe there was four goals within 11 minutes, Has that ever happened before?


I think Tottenham are going to seriously miss Son. I think Ajax will probably beat them now especially if they play like they have been. I don't really care who gets to the final or wins though. Would have liked to have seen Barca and Liverpool in the final but I guess a semi will have to do.


Not necessarily. Liverpool will have the double in their sights so the pressure is still on for City. City have a couple of tough games coming up and they've got Tottenham again on the weekend and that could be dirty. Anything could happen. I'm predicting a bloodbath either way lol. If City lose a game now they're probably done. Even dropping two points on a draw may kill their chances.

But the debate isn't as simple as that and doesn't end there. I am a Man. I was born a man. I identify as a straight man. But what if I want to tell people I'm a gay trans woman. A woman with a penis as you say. Or I'm gender fluid and some days I want to be a woman and othertimes I want to be a man even though they're either all lies or I just want attention and to feel special and listened to. Does that grant me access to the women's toilets now? Liberals would seemingly argue my case that I should be allowed in the woman's bathroom if I want but that's ridiculous. This discussion is bigger than just letting people do what they want based on what they say they are and you don't need to respect everybody who says they're one thing when they're clearly not. I think there are bigger issues than gender neutral bathrooms as most people probably can coexist with them and we already have gender neutral bathrooms in some places, but there is a reason why we have separate ones. I personally don't mind them as I'm not a creep or a pervert and I can use them without trying to hit on or accost women, but I'm not the one who's at threat here.

There's a good discussion between Ben Shapiro & Blaire White on YouTube. Blair White is a transgender woman but is actually a voice of reason who speaks logically. So much so that the trans community has actually turned against her which says a lot about them as a whole and I would recommend watching it and her other videos. Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hbTwoLah2VY

Adam Conover of Adam Ruins Everything was also on Joe Rogan yesterday and the trans issue came up and the whole issues of transitioning as a child came up. Adam was taking the typical liberal view and saying its fine and should be encouraged and Rogan was destroying him on everything and I recommend watching it. The whole trans athlete thing comes up as well which is another ridiculous scenario this trans issue has caused. Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JcAPU6paCxo


I would disagree. It's becoming more popular because it's getting more mainstream exposure and now snowflakes spot it and start adopting it because they now have something to be discriminated against and it has a snowball effect. As I mentioned before, if you raised children on a desert island they probably wouldn't have these issues. It's because you can go on youtube and bloggers are talking about how they're non-binary genderfluid trans and gay that gives other people the idea that they can be too. If they weren't exposed to this nonsense I don't think someone would randomly decide they're gender-fluid. As I said before, I'm all for gay and trans rights but I think many people are just jumping on the bandwagon because they can and there's nothing stopping them and liberals pander to them because that's what they do and both sides should be able to discuss their opinion without just being shut down by being shouted at or labled whateverphobic.



I think liberalism has gone too far now. The left has gone so far left they're coming back around on themselves and verging on fascism and anyone who doesn't agree with them must be silenced or punished. They really don't care about free speech; they just want to shout and scream the loudest to make sure the attention is on them and that's how they win their 'debates'. They don't debate but just shout and scream to drown out the oppositions opinion.

Sutters Mill
Posts: 904
3Brj6parGN4j13d2z96DP8sWMNoSvEv6wA

I'll give this campaign a shot seeing as there's a lot of slots currently open. I will obviously change signature if I'm accepted. May the best posters win  .

I think it's fairly obvious that people only care about ranks and therefor merit for signature space. The higher rank you are the bigger signature you have and the easier it is to get onto a signature campaign therefor more money you can potentially earn. It's probably like wondering why do people care about more qualifications or being a higher position in a company. More money and respect is the answer. I do have to agree with op however that the rank requirements are probably excessive.... or maybe not excessive but due to the little merit people send to others because of its scarcity it's very hard to achieve high ranking. Personally I don't really care about  merit as I'm lucky enough to have been early in the game to get airdropped the required amount to become Hero which is a level many new users will likely struggle to achieve, but I rarely receive merit from people and I don't believe it's because my posts are bad.... far from it. In the past 120 days I've received 11 merit. Because I receive little merit I can send little on to others so I'm limited in that respect and I think that's the same case with everyone else. I've sent my only two remaining merit to two users in this thread but personally I think there's many others in this thread that also deserve it (some moreso) and that I would have merited had I been able to. Maybe there are other factors involved in sending merit however. Maybe it's because I don't really need it that people are less likely to send it to me and save it for those that need it more, but on the flipside I wonder how I would get on if I made a new account from scratch but made the same sort of posts.  How long would it take me to achieve Hero then?? I think I would struggle personally but that's something I'm not willing or care enough to try find out  .  The merit system doesn't seem to be set in stone so I'm sure the limits could be ajusted in the future if they're clearly too difficult to achieve.


I don't think it's as simple as that. There are sure a a lot of people who don't deserve much merit complaining about it but I also think there's a lot of users that also go overlooked and even active users who contribute a lot will maybe nebver achieve Legednary or take many years to do it.


I think there's a third too: The ones who were here before the merit system and achieved rank without achieving merit and therefor have nothing to complain about. Some people will have deserved their rank from prior posts but others certainly haven't and it was just the luck of being an early adopter for them. I don't think the merit system is perfect and it's healthy to constructively criticize it's positives and negatives and suggest improvements. A sweet spot should try to be found if it hasn't already but that is certainly open for debate).


I agree with you. Some boards obviously recieve more merit than others and its potluck as to whether you receive any at all.

Sports betting is much worse to do Martingale on because the games are less predictable and the odds will likely be much higher unless you're betting on something that is 50/50. Sounds like you were probably just trying to chase your losses really. As others have said, there's no real method to winning other than being a good gambler and there are professional ones out there that make a living from doing so but you still need a bit of luck ultimately but if you're smart and know your sports you can probably be in net profit over time but I wouldn't ever look to gambling as a career because you could easily bankrupt yourself and there is certainly more losers than winners when it comes to making money from gambling overall.

City definitely have the easiest of fixtures but Liverpool are still a game in front and can't afford to slip up. It's probably going to come down to whoever loses one game now and it'll probably be all over for them if they do.


I think it would be very unwise of Juve to sit back and think they've got this in the bag. Ajax could be the dark horse of the tournament. They turned over Real Madrid away and I think RM seriously underestimated them having a 2-1 advantage from the first leg and two away goals and it cost them in the end. Real Madrid might not be the team they were the last few tournaments but all they were really missing was Ronaldo and Zidane. I think Real probably will win at home but they certainly should'nt take their foot off the gas and assume this will be a walk-over.

I think Tottenham will struggle on the reverse fixture, especially with Captain Kane out now. I would rather them win but I think City will be too strong at home. Interestingly enough they'll both be playing each other a few days later in the Premier League. That will be a very interesting game as one team will surely want retribution for being knocked out whatever happens.


Ajax were the better team but I think that away goal for Juve was vital and is probably what will sink Ajax ultimately. I think Juve will be too strong at home. I think playing away in other grounds from other top tiers of football makes a huge difference. With the Barca Man U second leg I think United will get destroyed. Could even be an embarrassment. I can see a lot of cards in that game especially from United. They can get clumsy and are certainly physical at the best of times, which will get even worse if they're losing.


Agreed.


No, it was a goal, but technically an own goal. I think it's very harsh to count those sorts of deflections as an own goal. For an own goal to counyt it should have to be a clear error on the players part not that just it came off them and unluckily went in.


Of course it can happen..anything can happen, but most people will be of the opinion that it's going to be very difficult for Man United now. Barca are one of the best teams on the planet and Camp Neu is arguably one of the hardest places to go to so it's going to be an uphill battle for them. I wouldn't write them off just yet but the odds are stacked against them. It will make for an interesting game either way.


If I was them I'd rather play Manchester than Barca. I think they would too. Liverpool beat them 3-1 at Anfield in December and it was 0-0 on the reverse fixture a couple of months ago. I disagree about Barca not being as good as prior teams and Messi, Surez & Coutinho are just as good as Mane, Salah & Firmino if not better in my opinion. Liverpool probably have one of the best sides they've ever had right now though.

How do children even start to have these thoughts in the first place? They must be getting the information that you can change your gender from somewhere and I don't think it's something that spontaneously arises. If you raised children on a desert island I'm almost certain at no point would they ever suggest they feel like a boy trapped in a girls body and vice versa or certainly that they'd want to change their sex. It's like this whole gender fluid/non-binary thing that has become very popular over the last five years or so. If it wasn't for the internet and special snowflakes finding tumblrs and twitter users where people claim they're a different gender to what they obviously are or are non-binary slash gender fluid then I don't think it would be a prevalent thing today. It's getting ridiculous to me now. The amount of times I'll look at someone's twitter or Instagram and they literally state their pronouns in their bios. To me it's just them screaming for attention. Look at me, I'm not what you think I am. Every-time I see someone and they claim they're gender-fluid or non-binary it's usually just white snowflakes who seemingly have nothing to be oppressed about so they invent something to be discriminated against and they throw a hissy fit when you accidentally 'misgender' them. I understand that gender dysphoria is a real thing but I genuinely don't think the majority of these people have it and I'm really not going to refer to a guy or a girl as them/they or the opposite of what they actually are just because they insist so.


But how biased are the TransYouth project? When I was five years old I wanted to be Batman. If someone told me I could identify as batman and wear the little suit I had everyday I probably would have (and I wore it as much as I could much to the chagrin of my parents). Imagine if my parents said to me, no it's okay, you can be batman your entire life if you want. That would probably be more damaging if I was wearing the costume into my teens and running around thinking I was batman. In todays society it's seemingly ok if someone wants to identify as Batman even though most people would find it ridiculous. I personally wouldn't care if my children were gay or transgender (I would just want them to be happy and safe), but I certainly wouldn't be letting them have sex or change their gender until they were an adult regardless of their gender or sexuality but I'd support them as much as I could either way.


I really used to hate the phrase 'political correctness has gone mad' because it used to be used by racists and homophobes after not being able to get away with abusing people for being gay or a minority, but this stuff is going to far now, especially when anyone who speaks out on it is labeled a homophobe or transphobe etc. I'm all for gay rights and even transgender rights but the way certain people are trying to force children to play by the same rules as adults or others to comply with whatever it is they want to be referred to is starting to infringe on free speech and others rights in my opinion. 


If you're not old enough to vote or have sex then you shouldn't be able to change your sex in my opinion. I am also for individual rights, but you couldn't let a child make all their own decisions in life. If you let them chose their own meals they'd probably eat junk food everyday and use mountain dew as mouthwash. I'm a big believer in saying no to a child as little as you can, but I wouldn't let my child play with a gun or smoke cigarettes if they wanted to just like I wouldn't want or let them change gender in their childhood because they don't know any better. Let kids be kids, and if they still feel the same way at 16-18+ then it's time to discuss things.


Is it the best option though? How do you know they're old enough? I would agree that for most transgenderism is not a phase, but for some it is and there are many trans people who regret transitioning or are glad they never went thought with it and that's why it something that should take years to do and not something you can decide on a whim and certainly not when you're a child. Transitioning is also a huge mental and physical thing to go through and we also probably don't have the data on how transitioning so early is going to affect people later in life. What if this becomes acceptable and common for children to start transitioning and then the suicide rates of people who transition in their childhood goes through the roof? Who knows what damage will be done longterm. To me this isn't about me being scared of emasculation but protecting life and the quality of it no matter whether you're gay, straight or truly trans or not.