A negative ROI. Saying that something has negative ROI "has ROI" is like saying someone in debt "has money" because negative money is still money.

No. You're confused. Because you're an idiot.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Return_on_investment

Let's do the math, since it seems like you're not capable of it yourself.

If you spend $100, and you earn back $1 Then your net profit is $-99.

$-99/$100 * 100% = -99%

Seriously, how fucking stupid are you?  This is a commonly used, mathematically defined, investment term with a specific meaning.

Yes, every miner has an ROI.  But in some cases, those ROIs are NEGATIVE.

Here is the formula for ROI:
ROI = (gain from investment - cost of investment) / (cost of investment)

http://www.investopedia.com/terms/r/returnoninvestment.asp
ROI is a measure of profit, not revenue.
"In the above formula "gains from investment", refers to the proceeds obtained from selling the investment of interest. Return on investment is a very popular metric because of its versatility and simplicity. That is, if an investment does not have a positive ROI, or if there are other opportunities with a higher ROI, then the investment should be not be undertaken."

So your example would yield a -99% ROI.

I'm sure I will regret this, but I'm going to answer your question anyway.

927w with a platinum PSU. This is the one area in which BFL is clearly superior. With an identical PSU(Antec 1300w platinum) four BFL Single SCs draw just under 1100w and hash at around 375Gh/s(after mods to their crappy stock cooling). The minirig SC has twin EVGA classified 1500w PSUs and it draws almost exactly 2x this amount.

If you think this is a huge advantage for BFL gear however, then you'd be mistaken. Bitfury has claimed that the first of their finished products have shipped today and this will mark the end of BFL's superiority in the efficiency department, even while the vast majority of their customers victims still await the products they paid for months ago. Operating cost differences between these two products will end up being nearly meaningless IMO. This is why I've chosen to add more hashing power in the form of cheaper and more readily available secondary market Avalons.

No, it's entirely real.  Did you miss the part where I told you my batch 2 avalon has paid for itself, In bitcoin?  

I spent bitcoins I had because I wanted more bitcoins then I started with, and now, I have them.


Which doesn't matter if your goal was to increase the number of bitcoins you have. Which I told you, is the reason I bought an ASIC. Otherwise I would have just kept my bitcoins.


What the fuck are you talking about?  In may of 2011 $1 million dollars could have bought you more then 1.5TH/s. If you'd kept the money the bitcoins you mined would probably be worth $50-100 million dollars.  

The timing matters.  In fact, I think, but I haven't done the math - if you'd spent $1 million dollars on GPUs in June of 2012 instead of spending $30k on a BFL mini-rig, you'd actually have already made a profit by now, given the price increase.  That's the incredible irony of this.   The people who ordered Mini-rigs at that point in time would have been better off buying GPUs.

I agree people shouldn't buy block erupters expecting to get an ROI. I think most people just buy them for fun.


Again, are you smoking crack?

Why would someone want to just give free money to BFL in exchange for nothing of value? If they want to give to charity there are lot of worthwhile options.

If you're not a little greedy, there's no reason to care about bitcoin at all.  There's no reason to care about money. If they weren't greedy they would never have bought ASICs in the first place. Why would they?


BFL is damned because their mistakes are in the past.  There is nothing they can do now to rectify the situation, that's what happens.  That's how time works. Mistakes can't always be undone, and the damned stay damned.


I just told you. My Batch2 Avolon has already paid for itself, in BTC. And it certainly is true that no one should buy a pre-order at this point in time. Anyway people use "ROI" around here to mean positive ROI. If you make less then you pay it's a negative ROI.


Ignorance of what?

You're just spewing total nonsense.

You claim to be defending BFL, and yet you say they fucked their customers. You admit their customers will never ROI, and that BFL never intended for them too.  You say the customers should have figured it out, and then you say their customers are only complaining because they're "greedy".  Except if they weren't greedy they never would have bought an ASIC in the first place.

That's like saying you shouldn't complain about getting fucked because the only reason it hurt is because you're too uptight for the giant dick to fit comfortably in your asshole.

You're not defending BFL, certainly not in a way that would make sense to the people they fucked.  We seem to agree on the facts, it's just you don't think there's anything wrong with ripping people off if they're "greedy" and stupid.

It's totally bizarre.

http://products.butterflylabs.com


https://forums.butterflylabs.com/blogs/bfl_jody/310-monday-august-26-2013-shipping-upgrade.html


Products actually shipped far out of order. The order queue is a lie.

Sadly BFL stuff is not easily overclockable. I'm averaging about 715Gh/s from 1 minirig SC and 4 Singles(think 12 singles), but they're *HOT* and require 10x the attention the 9 Avalons do. I have two AC units cooling them(32k BTU) and they still overwhelm the ACs during the day.

I personally thank you for your well-reasoned arguments.  But you'll be much happier and live longer if you just use the wonderful "ignore" feature of this forum. 

It doesn't work that way. Unless you use a ton of keywords like Al Queda, Obama, etc.

You are probably thinking of context sensitive crawlers and flagging. In which case you'd probably have to write it out in a different language if you want to draw any attention.

If you threaten to blow up the white house (or harm the president), the FBI is obligated to investigate such occurrences. (Yes, they actually send someone...well if you report it at least.)

=========================

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/jul/31/nsa-top-secret-program-online-data

Thats just one tool that is recently become public. The tool allows someone to type in a web address such as: www.butterflylabs.com and it will give an analyst access to the IP's that have visited that site.

Or you could type in your IP and a few keywords and bring up your online browsing history.

Google History: https://accounts.google.com/Login?service=hist

You can wipe your history off the public servers but retention means it is available for a long, long time.

I understand your sentiments. But shutting down a persons account is very easy...dangerously so...and legally.

There are so many spurious terms of agreement that you two have with your ISP, that if he proves you were at a certain location and posted a certain thing, that may or may not be enough to get your account terminated at the ISP.

I know this because I have seen grown babies (manchilds) do this to one another when they get a little too stupid for words. Then they turn to the FBI to have each other investigated like idiots.

You'd probably think that people in high authority in the US government and the Armed Forces are different than you average folk. Lets just say, the only difference is their ability to use English properly. Some of the nasty ones even turned to department heads at AFOSI and DIA (and/or the FBI) to have them frivolously investigated.

--------------------

Point being, watch out. (to both of you)

Not if they shipped 50k on the same day, or even in the same week or so.  2016 blocks would be found almost immediately and then there'd be a huge diff jump. 50k Jalapenos would be 300TH. About the hashrate at the beginning of this month.

So, they're not under obligation not to fuck their customers? Why would you defend a company fucking it's customers, simply because they're not "obligated" to refrain?  Maybe not illegal but certainly not ethical.

At least with the block erupters people know what the hashrate and difficulty growth will look like when they get them, since they'll be getting them right away. A lot of people buy them just for fun.

Of course it's BFL's fault. They had faulty information because BFL withheld that information. That was no way to know what effect the other orders would have because BFL chose not to share that information with them.  Which is why I decided not to order from them last year, and went with Avalon instead (I have a batch 2 that's already paid for itself in BTC)

You're basically claiming that everyone who didn't make the same decision I did was an idiot who deserved to lose their money to BFL.

My batch 2 Avalon has already paid for itself in BTC.  The only reason I bought a miner was to increase the amount of BTC I had.

What the fuck are you talking about?  Of course the monarch is a terrible fucking buy!  Why the fuck would anyone buy something that won't ROI?  Are you smoking crack?

Thank you for such an awesome site!

A suggestion: currently the middle column (the one you are sorting by) is for 17% periodical difficulty increase.  This corresponds to 11.97-day difficulty change period, which corresponds to constant daily network growth of (1.17^1/11.97-1)x100% = 1.32%.

Now if we look at two last graphs at http://bitcoin.sipa.be, we may notice that during the last month the daily growth not only exceeded 1.3%, but even kept above 2% most of the time, which would correspond to 25%.  Actually, 14-day average growth has been significantly above 2% for 3 weeks in a row already.

True, such high growth rates have not been seen since 2011, but given current situation in the mining market it is very likely that this growth will persist for some time.  I mean, Asicminer is preparing to add few hundred TH in September, Bitfury and Avalon keep producing and delivering chips, Avalon-based DIY solutions have only just started to appear en-masse, and there are these numerous new players preparing to join in September and October.  Doesn't it look like the real massacre fun mostly is only about to start.  Predicting 25% through the next few periods is not exaggerated, it's conservative!  I would predict 30+, but I may be biased.

So, I would suggest setting the middle column to 25% (maybe at least to 20%) and even more importantly, setting the right column to at least 40%.  Thank you for considering this!

Not sure if you know but there were at least 1800 new paid invoices (not just unpaid for orders) placed within 48 hours from the moment they posted the pre-order on the page.
So you are a little late.

I really feel sorry for anyone naive enough to place a new scam pre-order for a monarch. Jesus mary can't people even see that they can't deliver anything in any quantity but Jalapenos? And they are over a year late with everything else.

DO NOT SEND ANY NEW MONEY TO BFL.

DO NOT SEND ANY NEW MONEY TO BFL.

DO NOT SEND ANY NEW MONEY TO BFL.

DO NOT SEND ANY NEW MONEY TO BFL.

DO NOT SEND ANY NEW MONEY TO BFL.

DO NOT SEND ANY NEW MONEY TO BFL.

DO NOT SEND ANY NEW MONEY TO BFL.

Continue to repeat this money saving mantra 

I never miss a chance to say this: I think it's counter productive, as you have to look at the red hot Ignored posters and say "are they really worthy of ignoring? Are they getting trolled with lots of undeserved ignores?". It doesn't help when some people with long time pulsating Ignore buttons spend a lot of effort to become trusted again, only to spend their trust on playing trollish games again.

Simple troll repellent mechanism: ignore posts, not posters. Pressing ignore just encourages more gamesmanship.

Nope, it's completely true.  

They did claim that most of the hashrate was from them, in fact at one point they claimed that ALL of the hashrate increase was from them, and that they were the only company shipping anything.  I'm pretty sure it was within the past month.

It's odd that you seem to think there's only one "original comment" like that was the only thing they ever said about it.

I also don't even understand what point you're trying to make.  You seem to only be arguing with people who criticize them without making any actual point at all.

If BFL is shipping the majority of Hashrate, then their customers were fucked from the very begining, even if they didn't delay.  That's what they're actually claiming.

On the other hand, if they're not shipping most of the Hashrate, then their customers have been fucked by their being nearly a year late.

Either way, they fucked their customers.

I still don't understand why you care so passionately about defending BFL.  It's very bizarre.

Watch out, you really can have an ISP pull the plug on your account.

I wonder what causes someone to have such an emotional investment in defending BFL? They're a bunch of assholes completely fucking over their customers.

They claim that most of the hashrate increase is caused by them. If that is true, it means they took so many orders that if they shipped them on time their customers would never make much back on their investment, without price increases.

So what is it that motivates people to come on here and vociferously defend them?  If it's the case that most of the hashrate increases are due to their shipping units, then their customers were fucked all along.

Anyway, you don't really have much of an argument anyway, as far as I can tell.  You don't have any numbers at all. So it's not even clear what you're trying to say.