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801  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Bitcoin Civil War on: May 10, 2023, 12:30:02 PM
Personally, I find the central idea of ordinals quite elegant and true cypherpunk.

you are joking right
ordinals are junk.
Probably Bitcoin itself seemed to be the same junk to an outside observer shortly after the launch of the network. I see the elegance of the ordinals idea in the fact that all satoshi in the block chain are initially implicitly numbered hard. It's just that ten years after the idea was formed, someone explicitly implemented it. Sooner or later it had to happen, and now it has.

Bitcoin network hasn't ceased working, its just more annoyingly expensive like PayPal.
No one promised that transactions would always be cheap. By itself, determining the actual price of a transaction on a competitive market basis explicitly implies that transactions are cheap only in conditions of low competition for a limited place in the block.
802  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Bitcoin Civil War on: May 10, 2023, 11:49:11 AM
The truth is that everyone want ordinals to be cancelled in it entirety otherwise they find a lasting Solution to it, but yet as bitcoiners anticipated for the outcome on this, some have even come out boldly that they had preferred bitcoin despite the present challenge than having their asset with any centralized organization, a statement made by Robert Kennedy Jr said he would preferred bitcoin over CBDC because his asset will not be frozen by politics or any centralized institution and authorities including government. https://twitter.com/BTC_Archive/status/1655874701321814018?t=rbcvNlxEYzKagrPwGWmf_Q&s=19 this kind of mindset and determination is what we seek with everyone to go for the change they want with their financial economy and adopt a new system with bitcoin, the centralized system is nothing but a modern way of advanced financial slavery, bitcoin has come as a game changer and table shaker of them all, creating a balance between the poor and the elites, after the experience with ordinals, more wins will emerge on the bitcoin network as a call for more adoption.
Please refrain from false generalizations. Personally, I find the central idea of ordinals quite elegant and true cypherpunk. It is somewhat lazy to evaluate the quality of the implementation, but the fact that this little project was implemented in the rust programming language and was able to compile is already a good recommendation for the quality of the implementation (if you know what I mean). I also understand the arguments against ordinals and some of them seem reasonable to me.

But I can't stop thinking that a large part of the source of the resentment on the forum is the selfish fear of losing signature revenue from all those many mixers and casinos that seem to be having problems operating normally in the face of increased transaction fees. Fear is a good motivator and a bad ally. I'd like to avoid splitting and not trying to fix what isn't broken, but if I have to choose sides, I guess I'll take the side without fear.
803  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: HODLing Bitcoin isn't merely an "investment" on: May 10, 2023, 07:45:01 AM
I saw a post made by someone in which he told his story about his investment in Bitcoin and how it helped him go through the financially challenging times that the COVID-19 pandemic brought. A good, heart-warming  story by a fellow Bitcoiner, BUT we shouldn't forget that simply HODLing/owning Bitcoin could also be a kind of political movement, because its features could make Bitcoin weaken or break down political strongholds.

It might be premature to call it a revolutionary movement, but what were the motivations of the early cypherpunks when they were building their tools? Satoshi's message in the Genesis Block is also political.

 Cool

There is a non-zero chance that the message encrypted in the genesis block is a regular timestamp with a headline from the first fresh newspaper Satoshi came across to document that the bitcoin network was launched no earlier than January 3, 2009.


What does that actually mean?
This means that your thesis about the political nature of Satoshi's message in the genesis block may be just mental speculation with no real ground. What if the date of a newspaper headline is more important than its content, which could be anything else by chance and the production editor? As Sigmund Freud said, "Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar."

Quote

Of course, the early cypherpunk movement was thoroughly imbued with romantic rebellious spirit of protest against the existing financial system. But is it necessary to look for hidden political subtext here? If Cypherpunk is considered a political movement, then it is a political movement against politics, in a sense it is anti-politics, a protest against the dominant role of politics in our ordinary daily life. At least that's how I understand it.


I can't speak of their motivation, but the tools they built was to help users protect their privacy and help make said users be more anonymous online. That makes it easier to speak out, and to be in groups together without fear of the State spying on users or intervention.

Plus the point of that post is really just a mere shower-thought that because of how Bitcoin was technically designed, it makes it a tool that could weaken and break down political strongholds. We're probably helping the growth of a political movement by simply HODLing because HODLer growth = Community growth.
It seems paradoxical to me that the idea of making the blockchain open, with the goal of increasing anonymity and privacy.
804  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: The severity of the Ordinals Attack is increasing on: May 10, 2023, 05:56:53 AM
So, you are sure that in this section one more topic is needed to discuss the current situation. What are your constructive proposals for overcoming this crisis?
Pooya87 doesn't need to come forth with a solution to the problem, the fact that many people don't see this as a new problem that will greatly affect Bitcoin is what makes it a good discussion, many people think that this ks something we have seen several times in the past, and because it's also making Bitcoin miners rip good amount of profits but this is going to throw Bitcoin in a new BS situation.

Many new projects are getting on Bitcoin Ordi right now and some are just preparing to launch, the transaction fee will keep going higher from now on and many investors will quit Bitcoin, this is a valid reason to quit Bitcoin because people are violating its purpose.
The reality is that the possibility of introducing arbitrary data into the bitcoin blockchain has existed since the launch of the network, it’s just that no one has tried to widely use this possibility before. Read the previous sentence again and try to understand that this is not a bug, but a feature. If you consider this a dramatic problem, then the whole bitcoin is a mistake, because the problem does not have an adequate technical solution, only palliatives with very unpleasant side effects that still do not solve the problem, because it is of a fundamental nature.

Further, if we call it a "fungibility attack", then we have to admit that the attack would have no chance of any kind of success if the fungibility of bitcoins existed in reality, and was not an illusion and a figment of the imagination of a limited view of the open blockchain.

Bitcoin is not broken and there is nothing to fix here, the system continues to work normally. But perhaps many of us will have to reconsider again (I think not for the first and not even the last time) our outdated stereotypes about what bitcoin is, what its role and place in the world is. If for someone this experience is disappointing - this is an individual problem of his personal expectations.
805  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: The severity of the Ordinals Attack is increasing on: May 09, 2023, 08:52:10 AM
From a certain point of view, the mixed transactions from the mixer you advertise here are also spam on the open Bitcoin blockchain. Think about it at your leisure.

So what do you suggest people do to solve this problem?
I do not consider this a serious problem that deserves an immediate search for ways to solve it. As well as the problem with Ordinals Attack.

But if you want to delve into this dialogue in more detail - first remove your commercial signature so that I stop thinking that you are not trying to earn another four dollars and for you this is a key driver for continuing the conversation. Grin
806  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: The severity of the Ordinals Attack is increasing on: May 09, 2023, 08:28:21 AM
Quote
There is fixed, limited block space and variable demand for that block space. You may not like how that block space is being used but if transactions are consensus compatible and paying fees at the market rate the system is working how it should.
link
This is a dumb argument made by people who either have never looked at bitcoin source code or are intentionally ignoring it. Under the hood, in the consensus rules, spam attacks like this have always been possible but we have been preventing them using the standard rules.
This is also not demand for more block space, this is a spam attack. Period.
Please lower your level of aggressiveness in your rhetoric, because I may qualify this as a verbal attack on the self-identity of bitcoin. Like any human creation, bitcoin was not perfect at the time of its creation and remains imperfect now. This leaves room for the development of bitcoin itself and also gives room in the sun for a thousand altcoins that may be faster than bitcoin, more private than bitcoin, but they are not bitcoin.

From a certain point of view, the mixed transactions from the mixer you advertise here are also spam on the open Bitcoin blockchain. Think about it at your leisure.
807  Economy / Economics / Re: The precondition for knowing when the Federal Reserve stops raising rates on: May 09, 2023, 08:07:44 AM
High unemployment. I'm talking about high unemployment in the United States, and a recession there has always caused a contagion across the world.

It's not merely an opinion that the reason why Jerome Powell can't stop raising rates because of "sticky inflation", and "sticky inflation" will only go down if consumer demand goes down. But how does it go down? It will only go down if people lose their jobs, symptom of a recession. BUT unemployment is still very low, which means Jerome Powell will keep raising rates until there isn't enough money in circulation for companies to pay the wage-earners their salaries.
The unemployment rate is not a condition, but rather one of the indicators. It is difficult to be effective in the fight against inflation with a low level of unemployment, because, experiencing a shortage of free personnel, enterprises are forced to fight for them by raising wages, and this, in turn, continues to spin the flywheel of inflationary expectations. So yes, you're right - as long as US unemployment remains low, you can continue to expect interest rates to rise or stay the same until enough businesses fail or go through massive layoffs.
808  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Could Ordinals make having a copy of the Bitcoin blockchain justifiably illegal? on: May 08, 2023, 10:16:32 PM
I'm not talking about banning Bitcoin though. That's a different thing. Most governments can't ban Bitcoin because it would look too outright authoritarian if they did.

What I'm talking about is governments arresting people for possessing illegal content because they copied the Bitcoin blockchain if it contains illegal content. They haven't had that kind of excuse to get rid of Bitcoin before. They might not see Bitcoin as a problem now, but if it gives people an escape hatch out of the sinking dollar then they will care when they can't control people through money, and I'm worried the ordinal inscriptions will give them a justifiable excuse to get rid of Bitcoin. I'm sure that people could create a better crypto currency to fill that void, but I want Bitcoin to survive.
There are different jurisdictions with varying degrees of loyalty to cryptocurrencies, and the degree of loyalty may change over time depending on the efforts of regulators. Innovative areas of progress such as crypto are always associated with increased risks, including legal ones. And since different people have different levels of risk tolerance, it's hard to give a universally good answer to your question. If you are prone to increased anxiety and have a tendency to cultivate phantom phobias, you might be better off looking for a more conservative type of activity.
809  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Bitcoin mixing is NOT money laundering, per se on: May 08, 2023, 09:39:37 PM
You are wrong to attribute to my messages a moral coloring in the style of "good" and "bad"
How so? You're the one who used the phrase "dirty illegal business" above.
I'm not entirely sure if my sarcasm is too good, or my English is too bad, or both. In any case, I'm definitely not one of those narrow-minded fanatics who run around the section and spam about their jihad declared to spam. Although a mixed transaction in a public blockchain from some point of view also looks like spam. But you can expect me to be free of any kind of moral condemnation, no matter what purpose you use the mixer for. I am glad that sometimes we seem to understand each other quite well, although each of us is conducting a dialogue not in our native language.
810  Economy / Economics / Re: Fed on brink of fifth(?) round of quantitative easing on: May 08, 2023, 08:49:55 PM
“We will not increase the size of the national debt that every U.S. president has done for 6 million years,” Biden said. Grin
811  Economy / Economics / Re: Dedollarisation fails before starting, Russia and India halt rupee trade on: May 08, 2023, 08:20:48 PM
I agree with you, I don't know why everyone is going against the dollar and they just want the dollar to lose its value. Quitting of dollar doesn't makes sense because it's currently the internationally acceptable currency and can be used anywhere in the world without any issue. It's the most useful currency out there and without it I can't even imagine that how would they do trades. Their own fiat currencies can be used bilaterally but that currency won't be acceptable globally.
Because of the war and the sanctions? That's only reason needed. Plus Russia wants to destabilize west, it always has.

Countries that have sanctions want to trade and that won't be happening when dollar is the centre of everything. Obviously sanctioned countries want their own system that can't be halted by any other entity. But that's easier said than done and i don't think they can make it work.

After the imposition of the sanction, India began to buy a lot of oil from Russia and there was a strong imbalance in the trade balance. Under such conditions, interaction within the framework of a bilateral swap of national currencies has ceased to suit Russia, it simply does not need so many Indian rupees, and it also does not want to strengthen its ruble (for obvious reasons, for every export-oriented country). One possible solution is to increase the import of Indian goods to Russia in order to even out the imbalance in the trade balance. There are other options, such as gold. Judging by Bloomberg's weekly statistics, the supply of Russian oil to India has not stopped, which means that the parties have found a way to negotiate with each other.
812  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: On Ordinals: Where do you stand? on: May 08, 2023, 07:55:44 PM
The idea is interesting, but I do not quite understand the logic. Even if some dishonest mining pool manager artificially inflates the price of transactions, he has no guarantees that it is his pool that will catch the next block, which means there is a fairly high probability that his overpriced commission will go to another pool and he will simply lose his money. Or am I not understanding something?

first of all a pool manager does not need to pre-relay his zero confirm tx to the network. he can just make a tx and keep it for his own block template. and if the next block is not solved by him he just puts the same unbroadcast tx into the next template.. thus other pools dont steal the tx and take the fee

second of all there are a few pools doing this so they are collaborating.. its not like its just one pool spamming fee's, they all suddenly want to push fee's up to extremes. which for the last decade they did not show any great greed to want to resort to these tactics.. but all of a sudden now they are in greed season. and no
individual users with home asics dont have a say in which transactions are added so its not miners demands. its pool manager greed/effect

thirdly some are broadcasting transactions pre confirm to each other.. or the spammers are sponsoring several pools and whomever gets added first wins..  so i doubt they care much about losing some tx to some other pool. after all if the main top pools are doing it they end up passing each other funds so it ends up equalling out... and are probably being funded by idiot a-holes to spam the network
I'm not a big fan of conspiracy theories, but yours is quite interesting and I would take it much more lightly if a few previous conspiracy theories that I also found interesting didn't prove to be true. Thank you.

In general, the problem of malicious cooperation of managers of large pools is quite serious. It seems that Satoshi believed that malicious cooperation was not profitable because they were too financially interested in the overall success of bitcoin as a commercial enterprise to deliberately try to discredit it. But I believe that this is not a strong enough argument, because pool owners can receive material or non-material incentives from third parties that may outweigh their possible losses from actions aimed at discrediting Bitcoin.
813  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: On Ordinals: Where do you stand? on: May 08, 2023, 07:31:57 PM
Really? Are you exhausted? Then brace yourself:

Ordisrespector

We can run this fork and kick the spam out of our nodes.
Well, do it if you can - why scream then?

Now go organize your "spam rights" protests... Everyone here clearly knows who you defend here, and who you are against. And your lame fw.


In case you don't get it, we don't care about the tx fee, we care about NOT bitcoin tx fees polluting Bitcoin. Go take your memes and uber trash elsewhere.
I don’t understand why I should go somewhere and organize something if I am quite satisfied with the current state of affairs. I'm not into memes, NFTs and other pederastic shit, I'm only advocating the right of idiots to freely fuck their money as long as it doesn't violate the rules of consensus.
814  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: On Ordinals: Where do you stand? on: May 08, 2023, 06:58:19 PM
Also how about sheer financial incentive? Right now there are blocks being mined with fee rewards per block that are higher than the 6.25 fixed block reward. While I doubt it's sustainable long-term

those fee's are not really from that many independent individuals . they are the same groups as the mining pool managers. basically making high fee's to pay themselves back.. thus not much loss is incurred when producing high fee transactions becasue they are the sender and receiver of fee's
The idea is interesting, but I do not quite understand the logic. Even if some dishonest mining pool manager artificially inflates the price of transactions, he has no guarantees that it is his pool that will catch the next block, which means there is a fairly high probability that his overpriced commission will go to another pool and he will simply lose his money. Or am I not understanding something?

Keep focused people, the naysayers are reveling themselves for what they are and what they support. Anyone defending the spam is against Bitcoin.
Please try to be more tolerant of confirmed transactions with fees above your personal comfort level. You're pretty aggressive and obsessive about showing some sort of transactional racism, and it's exhausting.
815  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: The severity of the Ordinals Attack is increasing on: May 08, 2023, 04:45:25 PM
Yup, wishful thinking. Maybe it won't technically "last", but it could easily take years until they run out of funds to spam, and that's all they need...
Breathe deeply, you are excited.
Quote
There is fixed, limited block space and variable demand for that block space. You may not like how that block space is being used but if transactions are consensus compatible and paying fees at the market rate the system is working how it should.
link
816  Other / Archival / Re: The bitcoin blockchain is on its knees again on: May 08, 2023, 02:41:22 PM
How do you imagine it in terms of implementation? It should be some kind of open letter from the developers in the style of "dear miners, these records for the number of transactions are not at all the adoption that we all dreamed of, please vote for our changes so that you can earn less, and we can send transactions again with low commission"?

A soft fork basically, but yeah you're on the spot. It's going to have a footnote at the end though:

"Please be advised that your failure to agree to these changes by 1 November 2023 will result in a User Activated Soft Fork getting deployed to forcibly resolve the issue."

It worked for Segwit, it nearly scared them to death that time.
Looks quite decentralized and resistant to censorship. Abusing such methods is a good way to turn bitcoin into a comfortable sofa dog.
817  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: The severity of the Ordinals Attack is increasing on: May 08, 2023, 12:42:33 PM
Let's be realistic, even if your initiative is implemented in the form of a new version of the bitcoin core, we will not be able to reach a consensus in voting for its implementation, given that the current situation is beneficial for miners.
FYI they were saying the same thing back in 2017 that the spam attack is benefiting miners and they will never accept the soft fork and they will continue spamming to keep the fees up. We know what happened after that...
Yes, I remember this muddy story with voting for Segwit. This seems to have been accompanied by a deep internal rift within the bitcoin community, a large part of which opposed any change. Then there was an equally deep disappointment among the miners, deceived by the fact that there was no increase in the block size, although this is in conjunction with the adoption of Segwit. This was soon followed by the bitcoin cash story and the hashrate war. Do you really want to repeat this success?
818  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: On Ordinals: Where do you stand? on: May 08, 2023, 12:36:21 PM
But that's the "problem" with Ordinals, some of those being built, and communities formed, might be incentived to keep "spamming" the blockchain because some users found out that dick pics/fart sounds are valuable, and they could make profit from them. It's not a real problem by itself, but it's definitely an inconvenience for users who want to use Bitcoin for financial transactions.

For a user who sends a dick pics or fart sound hoping to make a profit, this is also a financial transaction. And he paid the current actual price for its inclusion in the blockchain. This use case of the bitcoin network seems unusual to you, but this does not make it wrong. Don't worry, bitcoin has already proven itself anti-fragile enough not to break at the sound of a fart.


It doesn't change the fact that it has become very inconvenient for the rest of the participants. Because they merely wanted to make a profit? Blockstream's Liquid Network is better for what they're trying to do because it will give them lower fees, and a higher transaction throughput. More savings = more profit.

But it's not their fault, they simply don't know. I believe Blockstream should start marketing and let developers and users know that they can also build their network of dick pics in Liquid. It's probably the same situation when developers built Ethereum off-chain layers which has seen increased usage.
I think it is useless to appeal to the voice of reason when there are an abnormally large number of idiots in the market (in the sense of non-professional players). This seems to be a sure sign that we are now in the vicinity of the local maximum of the bitcoin market price and a crushing collapse will soon follow. Please do not take this as investment advice.

The good news is that after the crash, fee prices will be low again, without any soft fork.
819  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: The severity of the Ordinals Attack is increasing on: May 08, 2023, 08:31:34 AM
So, you are sure that in this section one more topic is needed to discuss the current situation. What are your constructive proposals for overcoming this crisis?

I prefer people getting their shit together to stop the existential threat to the network if it means the entire Bitcoin Discussion becomes an Ordinals board temporarily.

I for one will support any soft fork for this.
The only existential threat to the network is its split into two competing branches with an inevitable hashrate war between them, which you are now calling for.

There's a difference between putting non-bitcoin data with a niche use case on the blockchain, and putting "worthless" (BRC20 creator's word!) BS on the blockchain in hopes that it will pay for your Lambo and 48 months of house mortgage that you're about to get evicted for.
It is deeply erroneous and selfish to attempt to judge the validity of a transaction by the usefulness of its contents. Before the first bitcoin sold for fiat money, the entire bitcoin network was absolutely useless from the point of view of the layman, although by that time it had already functioned quite stably. The key to Bitcoin's anti-fragility is its architectural simplicity. The miners are not trying to evaluate the usefulness of the contents of the transaction, but for some reason you are trying to get them to start doing it.
820  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: The severity of the Ordinals Attack is increasing on: May 08, 2023, 08:10:19 AM
There has been a speculation that this attack is going to fade away slowly and there won't be any need for intervention to fix the protocol where it is being exploited by the Ordinals Attack. That seems like wishful thinking now.
The growing adoption of Bitcoin, especially by nation states, may also lead to serious mempool congestions and unbearably high transaction fees. Would you also call it an attack on Bitcoin, or where should we draw the line? Who are to decide which use case of Bitcoin is acceptable? I think that the decentralization of Bitcoin should work in both ways: no one can prevent you from using Bitcoin, and you cannot prevent anyone from accessing it and using it in whatever way they see fit. Don't take me wrong, I also consider Ordinals a scam, nothing else, but a tricky way to siphon off money from naive investors, but I am totally against forking off every time we see red squares on the mempool.space website. Ordinals is a mere demonstration of how the Bitcoin protocol will look like once everyone is using it to make transactions. We shouldn't fight it because the adoption is inevitable, we should embrace it and adapt to its consequences.

That's how she already works. You can shake the air as much as you like that you do not like this way of using the network - it will not change anything. In the genesis block of bitcoin there is an encrypted text fragment of the headline from the newspaper, you can at the same time resent that this is also the misuse of a network intended only for the transfer of financial information. If some government wants to use the bitcoin network as a public distributed ledger, for example, to store all real estate transactions or educational diplomas in it - should we consider this a misuse of the network, while each transaction is properly paid and confirmed by miners? And if someone pays with bitcoin for the purchase of drugs, weapons or human organs - should we consider these confirmed transactions to be wrong, because we do not share the motives of the people who committed them for ethical reasons?
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