I quite well understand, you ASSUME short time poster = clueless noob.  I'm sure you already know what happens when you ASSUME.

"Oh look, he's only been here for 2 months cause that's when he joined, he's a wanna be fanboi!"

Don't strain yourself patting yourself on the back.  I've spent many months lurking on here, it's just that now when the realization sinks in that these little magic money making boxes WON'T make you millions that people have come out in droves crying.  Yes, I was late to the bitcoin party but I also spent 4 months reading and thinking before placing my order with BFL.  Then I spent more months reading and laughing, cause *I* knew what I was getting into when I purchased.  My computer runs 24/7 and I used to use my GPUs for GIMPS so I had a set energy cost already with $0 gain.  Now I'm up over 25 bitcoins and I have not spent 1 red cent more than I would have if I were still with GIMPS.  Case in point, my electric bills have actually gone down, because none of the CPU coins out currently tax the CPU as hard as GIMPS did. 

Everyone on this forum has their 'favorite company' to get behind and cheer for.  Pfft.  None of them will pay off unless the value of BTC rises, which it is likely to do.  People bring up the difficulty repeatedly during their whines about not getting their BFL products.  "*I'M* losing money!!!"  Bullshit.  I built a time/motion study based on BFL shipping on time last Oct and only producing 1 1.5TH mini rig per day for 60 days, adding 90TH to the network.  With the price of BTC at that time, you'd have heard the same thing then as you are hearing now, cause RoI would be rapidly dissappearing for all but the ones who bought 1st.  While not exactly accurate, http://bfl.ptz.ro/ paints a good picture.  I see 20.82TH from 'known' day 1 orders from the 49 listed on there.  1/3 of my time motion study from 'KNOWN' orders and there's potentially 3-6x more UNKNOWN!  Sorry to say, but if they had shipped on time, NO ONE WHO BOUGHT IN JULY OR LATER would make back the BTC spent.  The value has since risen, so those smart enough to hold onto their coins WOULD have profited, which is the same case as now.

All of you are freaking out over the water that has risen to your ankles, but from what I see, none of you are listening when I point out the Tsunami about to break over your asses.  Conservative estimates on my part indicate 10 PETAHASH or in excess of 1.2 BILLION difficulty by the end of Dec.  Admittedly this assumes BFL, Avalon, KnC, Cointerra, Etc, Etc, Etc, Etc all ship or put online as they state.

BFL is the main target becasue they took the bulk of these orders over the last 14 months.  Many people are now demanding refunds and buying from competitors, but the end result will still be the same.

Yea, BFL is shipping slow... but... imagine where the difficulty would be today if they HAD gotten their shit together and shipped everything last Oct/ Apr  / Jun... 

Hate to tell ya trollboy, *MY* eyes seem to be the only ones that are open here. 

If you go by pictures, the Jalapeno was supposed to be ~1/2 the height it is currently and the LS/Singles were supposed to use what is now the Jalapeno case.  Plans change dude, just cause concept = something that looks like an EXT-HDD and turns out different does not equal scam.

<sigh> you repeated back exactly what I said, even though you misunderstood what I said.  YES PAYPAL REFUNDS WHAT WAS SPEND EXACTLY.  Matters not that exchange rates could have shifted. THIS IS BECAUSE WE ARE DEALING WITH FIAT VS FIAT  X was removed and Y was credited... then Y was removed and X was credited.  BTC is still not FIAT, while considered a currency by some it still holds status as a commodity.  Far as I remember, the pricing on BFL's website read USD and they would accept BTC in the amount of that USD.  This implies conversion.

You did not answer my question, WHAT ASIC COMPANIES ARE TAKING DEPOSITS FOR PREORDERS?  In your words then every ASIC preorder from EVERY company is a RED FLAG.

Special orders are not "1-off devices produced for a single individual'.  Go to Home Depot and try to order a Sauna.  Since it is not IN STOCK they classify it as SPECIAL ORDER, yet it is part of their catalog and has to be paid in advance IN FULL.  Considering they have a warehouse filled with them they ship from, it is not specialty built, but still a special order.  They have hundreds even thousands of them, but it's not sent to the store until ordered.  Kind of similar to the devices BFL is producing but they have ordered the parts and made a pre-built kit compared to BFLs ordering parts and building to order.

Yet again, you are talking about BTC as a viable currency.  When Paypal accepts BTC as a viable currency I will accept your argument.  When EBAY accepts BTC as a viable currency I will accept your argument.   Up until that time, you are selling a commodity for the USD funds needed to make a purchase.  BFL is simply being kind enough to reconvert the USD funds back into BTC to refund it to you.  YOU GOT THE SAME VALUE BACK. PERIOD.

The ONLY and I repeat ONLY way your argument is valid is if BFL did not take varying amounts of BTC for their miners over time.  If they said at the beginning "29BTC for a Jalapeno" and stuck with that regardless of USD value, then yes, your point is valid and they should refund you your 29 BTC.  Since the BTC 'price' VARIED while the USD price remained the same. YOUR POINT IS INVALID.  USD was the operating currency and by purchasing with whatever method you used, you accepted USD as that currency.  The only escrow needed to be held is USD as that is what they asked for.

I notice you deleted the sale of stock example and did not comment on it, probably because you realize it was correct and admitting that would damaged your case.  BTC is not a viable currency and is not recognized by Paypal or Ebay as such.

How many ASIC companies are taking a 10% deposit?

1) If I  were german and paid for an ebay order through paypal with Duetche marks it would be converted to USD (or some other fiat) and credited to the seller.  When asking for a refund, that USD (or other fiat) would be removed from the sellers account and the Marks would be credited back to mine yes, we get back what we paid, and yes, exchange rates may have shifted, but that's like 1%.  But we are talking about a highly volatile COMMODITY called Bitcoin here and as far as I can tell, none of the places you list accepts Bitcoin AS IT IS TOO VOLATILE IN PRICE.  Continue your stupidity on this, I know you will, farcical notions will remain farcical no matter how you preface them.  So what if they accepted BTC for an item, the price was USD.  As you so eloquently state, "if the value of BTC had dropped they would have gladly given back the BTC paid".  Show me 1 person who would not have bitched about that.  You expect BFL to get raped cause value shifted, but refuse to get raped if it went against you.  The truth you are refusing to see is that if you sold 10,000 shares of stock to get the USD to buy a minirig and then the price of that stock rose, BFL would not be responsible for your loss of profit by selling when you did.  The same holds true for BTC whether you agree or not.  Plain and simple fact, you SOLD BTC for USD and purchased an item.  IN asking for a refund BFL has to BUY BTC with the USD they received and REFUND it to you.  If they refunded you the USD you spent on the minirig and you could only buy 1,000 share of the stock you previously sold, BFL is not responsible.

2) According to what I read, the PREORDER money you are referring to was not spent ON RESEARCH AND DEVELOPMENT, WHICH IS UNDERSTANDABLE, but to assume as you are that none would be used to purchase the products needed to create the parts in question is laughable.  How on earth could any startup company take 100's of millions of dollars of orders and not spend a cent of it on the materials to make the parts?  Did Avalon only take 10% on it's preorders?  Are all the other ASIC companies taking only 10% on their preorders?  What world do you live in?  Try placing a special order sometime... most places require payment up front and have a 15% restocking fee if you cancel the order after it comes in.  Whether you think so or not, that is basically what these pre-orders are, special orders.  The materials to build them has been ordered and paid for and now people want their money back.

3) Wow, just wow... Let's stop and think... WHY did BFL refuse refunds in BTC?  Maybe because people were being unreasonable.  "I paid 500 BTC and I want 500 BTC back (mainly because that $3000 is not worth $50000!!!!!)"  THIS is the main reason behind 99% of the BTC refund requests you cite... GREED... and when refused what happened?  "SCAM!!!!!!!".  Yes BFL is now refunding BTC, by converting the USD for the items paid into BTC and sending it.  

You can't have it both ways, but that's how you keep presenting it.  If as you say BFL should have held all those BTC and refunded as BTC now that prices have skyrocketed then as well, if prices had plummeted BFL should only be responsible to refund the BTC paid.

Before you refute everything above answer this:

If you paid 10,000 BTC (worth $60,000USD in June 2012) and BFL kept it as BTC and the price today was $3 per BTC, WOULD YOU ACCEPT YOUR 10,000BTC BACK or would you call them a scam and demand 20,000 BTC cause you spend $60,000?

You can't have it both ways.

Ah yes, here's the old hindsight is 20/20 routine.  Obviously they kept all the BTC they were ever paid without ever converting it into USD cause they KNEW the price was going to spike.      

I supposed they also kept all the rubles and francs and pounds and marks and yen they were paid without converting them either, IN CASE THEY HAD TO REFUND THEM AS WELL.

Businesses cannot afford to hold onto a commodity (Yep, I said commodity and not currency) like Bitcoin due to it's volatile nature.  No business wanting to keep it's doors open would be that stupid.  Sure, you have the luxury now of saying "BUT!  See how stupid they were if they didn't hold any?!?!?" cause you KNOW what happened.  BTC spiked back in 2011 at over $30 and then 6 months later it was $3.  The price had only recovered to $5-$6 by the time BFL started taking preorders.  Maybe you would be willing to take a chance at losing 1/2 your money, but that would be suicide for a business.  In addition, your logic doesn't hold water.  Let's get rediculous and say only 1/5 of all orders were paid for by BTC and BFL hedged and kept 10% of all the BTC and converted the rest to USD for their operating budget.  Now we have to step into speculation, which I dislike doing, but it's the only option I have with no hard data.  Using http://bfl.ptz.ro/ as a guideline, we can see 4951 orders totalling $10mil, which is unrealistic to begin with since it's based on the original pricing of the miners which almost doubled around April.  These ~5000 orders represent only 7% of potential orders.  49 of these 'known'(I use ' ' because trust is vague since people could post complete BS on here) orders were Day 1.  10 Mini-rig, 90 Singles, 8 Little Singles and 36 Jalapenos 'KNOWN' to be ordered day 1 and this could be 1/1 to 1/6 of actual day one orders..  $298,990 + $224,910 + $9,968 + $5,364.  $539,232 * 1/5 * 1/10 = $10,784 or ~1600-1800BTC.  2% is an extremely small amount to keep and we're seeing a minimal stash being worth $160k-180k from only a percentage of Day 1 orders, of which there could be 2-5 times as many of.  By December over 14000 potential orders had been placed.  88 'known' minirigs have been ordered.  This is from 1200 of a possible 14000 orders.  BTC price end of Dec is around $13.5, so lets use that even though it shorts us on BTC.  88 * $29.899 = $2,631, 112 * 2% = 52,622.24 / 13.5 = 3897 BTC.  In todays market almost half a million dollars if they had only kept 2% of total sales as BTC from 'known' minirigs orders from Jun - Dec.  You have to at least doublt that to account for the other 'known' products.  And this is from only 10% of the potential orders made!  That's potentiallly 100,000BTC from only keeping 2% of sales from Jun through Dec as BTC.

April 5th BFL raises prices while BTC value is climbing.  April 10th BTC tops $250 before plummeting to $80, climbs back above $150, drops below 100, climbs again to 130.  Yea, let's ride the freaking roller coaster with 10's of millions of dollars FROM ONLY 2% OF SALES!

See, this is where it makes absolutely no sense to me... After receiving a potential 12,000 orders in March while BTC prices climbed from $20 to $60 and beyond, tripling the value BFLs BTC holdings in a single month, they double the price on all units.

We just became multimillionaires from holding onto a small percentage of all sales as BTC and we're so freaking greedy we stick it to the customers.

Dude, believe in your fantasies.  I just don't see it.

Clueless.  BFL takes BTC payments through Bitpay which means whatever coins are immediately converted to USD and sent to them.  BFL does not have a storage wallet they keep BTC in, they only have the USD.  If you had bought in May when BTC was $100-120 and refunded in Aug when BTC hit $70 you'd have done well.

BFL: 7PH and rising.

One bad apple spoils the bunch.

In another thread someone was comment on making a miner than only searched for 6ch instead of trying to the 9ch needed for blocks as they could get 2000 6ch vs 200 by doing this,  From what ypool has done, it seems fairly obvious that some jerk did exactly this and flooded the pool.  Ypool obviously took all the chains submitted over the past week or month or whatever and decided that the overinflated value of 6ch was robbing the people actually finding the blocks, so they changed the value system to match what had been coming in.  Unfortunately, this means that the poeple who were not trying to cheat the system get shafted.

If you are running on a laptop, I'd stick with 7.1.  The AVX is for Newer CPUs running Sandy Bridge and Ivy Brige architecture.

New values for ypool shares!

6-ch - .000976
7-ch - .03125
8-ch - 1
9-ch - 32
10-ch - 1024
11-ch - 24576
12-ch - 49152

Looks like someone was stupid enough to make one of these... Ypool has come out with new share rewards:

6-chains are now worth .000976
7-chains are now worth .03125
8-chains are now worth 1
9-chains are now worth 32
10-chains are now worth 1024

God you gotta love fools and their stupidity and greed.  Ya just F'd yourselves.

If you consider for that for 4 days difficulty hovered arouns 9.75 and is now approaching 9.77 it can be considered a spike.  Unlike BTC where you are going 50mil... 50mil... 50mil... 50mil... 67MIL!!!, this is constantly changing.  Since the schema of this coin is slow to react, a rise like this is very indicative of a spike in mining.  I could be wrong, but I could swear I remember Sunny saying something that made me think this is almost but not quite a logarithmic progression.

your DLL is out of date. Do like the above poster mentioned.

MJpL1CtRZ4J7ayutJ2YAYj7WF7rdcmsc9n

cheers

that is because V4 adds all 4ch and up for 4ch total and V7 is only 4ch.

1) If HashFast sells BTC for USD immediately, price will drop. 
2) If they sell for slightly less than others selling, price will ultimately drop. 
3) If they place a sell order larger than the smallest one price may remain same, decrease or increase. 

Most likely though it is #1

Then it's time to say "goodbye troll".

Shut up and leave us to our mining. 

67 mil now