So I have dismantled the garbage argument that was a pure conspiracy and you come back to me with the adjective "gullible". Read again and see to whom you have to apply the adjective. I'm sorry, but you're the one who has garbage counterarguments here. You insult my intelligence when you insinuate that people will be happy to accept CBDC (along with its consequences). There is no conspiracy theory regarding CBDC (Digital ID, carbon credits, social credit score, 15-min cities). It's already a reality in China and they're preparing to bring it in the West, only because there are gullible people like you who know nothing about WEF, Great Reset, Klaus Schwab. ps: I know many non-BTC people (no-coiners) who resist against CBDC and want to retain cash at all costs. Eventually they will be forced to shallow the orange pill, but at least they resist against this sci-fi dystopia... |
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The European Central bank is toying with the idea of imposing a €3000 limit on consumer CBDC accounts to discourage users from transferring all their cash from commercial banks to the central bank. So what the ECB is worried about is that citizens will embrace the Euro CBDC so enthusiastically that they will all want to switch to it, eliminating the need for commercial banks and suddenly all those banks will fail. That is why it is considering imposing an initial limit of €3,000, which will coexist with the existing cash and electronic payments (transfers, card payments, etc.). You really think people will be so enthusiastic to abandon cash in favor of CBDC, social credit score, carbon credits, 15-min cities?  Only a gullible person would believe that... I think Bitcoiners can do better than that.  I doubt anyone here is entertaining that notion, but it's the kind of thing the bureaucrats obsess over. I suppose they are accountable if they do get it wrong, but yes, it's a pretty far-fetched scenario. Our goal presumably involves trying to highlight to the uninitiated masses what the consequences might be for them if they do adopt CBDCs. The absolute death-knell of privacy being chief amongst them, but censorship a serious concern as well (and, unlike this current situation with a small percentage of pools censoring OFAC listed addresses, it's likely to be a more pervasive, inescapable and unyielding type of censorship with CBDCs, with little room for recourse). Even if we can't necessarily persuade people about the advantages of using Bitcoin, it could be an " anything but CBDCs" kind of discussion. The masses have a distinct knack for acting against their own self-interests when given the opportunity, so it won't be as easy as it might sound to convince them that CBDCs are very bad for them. You'd be surprised at how quickly some might embrace this mass-surveillance foolishness.I already see some people around here embracing things such as Digital ID, carbon credits (because apparently human beings cause climate change) and yes, even mass surveillance with tons of cameras and suggesting that Bitcoin is the perfect "timestamp machine" to store video feeds from innocent citizens.  Trust me, sometimes I'm genuinely wondering if I'm talking to Bitcoiners or feds... people conceal their identity, so it's very easy to pretend and play some fictitious role. Regarding OFAC, I remember back in 2020 during the 1st COVID lockdown some BTC pool trying to censor transactions, but it didn't last for too long. F2pool only has 11.4% of the hashrate. Still a far cry from 51%. Chances are it will fizzle out again. You should study how bitcoin works , and Antonopoulos isn't the best source . Who is the best source? Craig Wright? |
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I know this sounds like a crazy tinfoil hat conspiracy theory to some people around here, but what would you do if you were Bill Gates?
Would you trust CBDC? Especially considering the fact it will have a limit of €2000-3000 (as ECB officials have said)?
Do you wanna own nothing and be happy? Because with only 2-3k dollars/euros you will be forced to rent everything (your house, your car etc.)
It sounds like a conspiracy theory because it is, like that thing that looks like a duck and turns out to be a duck. The €3,000 limit has been planned to protect banks. You can see it in the following document: Know your (holding) limits: CBDC, financial stability and central bank reliance. But if you find it too complicated, it is summarized in a newspaper article: The European Central bank is toying with the idea of imposing a €3000 limit on consumer CBDC accounts to discourage users from transferring all their cash from commercial banks to the central bank. So what the ECB is worried about is that citizens will embrace the Euro CBDC so enthusiastically that they will all want to switch to it, eliminating the need for commercial banks and suddenly all those banks will fail. That is why it is considering imposing an initial limit of €3,000, which will coexist with the existing cash and electronic payments (transfers, card payments, etc.). You really think people will be so enthusiastic to abandon cash in favor of CBDC, social credit score, carbon credits, 15-min cities? Only a gullible person would believe that... I think Bitcoiners can do better than that. |
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If Bitcoin ever becomes centralized, it will no longer maintain its current purchasing value. That's for sure. Bitcoin became so valuable because it's the first decentralized, censor-free, digital currency. Big entities (such as pools) can always become corrupted, assuming they no longer care about making money/profit (ever heard of "go woke, go broke"?). The establishment can ruin everything you love, as long as it's centralized (Hollywood, Netflix, video game companies etc.) People can always form new pools, or join smaller ones, especially those that don't steal transaction fees from miners (didn't know that was a thing, totally despicable). KYC demands are also unreasonable. My personal bet is that the WEF elites (Bill Gates etc.) definitely want Bitcoin for themselves as a lifeboat to secure their wealth (convert fiat deposits & SP500 stocks to BTC ETF). They do NOT want it for the masses/plebs. That's why BlackRock wants to enter the BTC realm. Billionaires want a valuable asset to secure their wealth right before they perform The Great -Currency/Debt- Reset (which I reckon will happen around 2026-2027 during Taiwan's invasion by China). Fiat currencies (USD, EUR etc.) will melt (Weimar-style) and this will be the perfect opportunity to shove CBDC down people's throats. I know this sounds like a crazy tinfoil hat conspiracy theory to some people around here, but what would you do if you were Bill Gates?Would you trust CBDC? Especially considering the fact it will have a limit of €2000-3000 (as ECB officials have said)? Do you wanna own nothing and be happy? Because with only 2-3k dollars/euros you will be forced to rent everything (your house, your car etc.) This is another reason why NO ONE in their right mind should sell their BTC stash, especially before BlackRock's ETF approval (which will happen by mid-March 2024 at the latest). I sure as hell wouldn't destroy Bitcoin if I were Bill Gates or Klaus Schwab, BUT I would badmouth it all the time in mainstream media to deter the plebs from buying even a single satoshi!  It makes sense if they want to buy BTC at a low price and even cause weak hands/panic sellers to sell some more to them... |
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No pool would really want to do that because they would probably see the same things and know that it would kill their business.
-Dave
Don't forget that there are chains with a different mindset than the one of btc community that will welcome those pools and hashrate . BSV is not censorship resistant: https://twitter.com/BobSummerwill/status/1577714409618931713https://github.com/bitcoin-sv/bitcoin-sv/releases/tag/v1.0.13Who will migrate to a shitcoin under Faketoshi's leadership? What we need is more privacy by default on the base layer to make this kind of censorship impossible to begin with. You know that's impossible without a hard fork, right? People might migrate to Monero, but it has totally different tokenomics (due to tail emission). |
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Κυνική απάντηση: Όταν μειωθεί ο πληθυσμός. Τότε θα αποπληθωριστούν τα πάντα (ναι, ΚΑΙ το fiat χρήμα, όσο κουφό κι αν ακούγεται τώρα). Το μέλλον των κτιρίων: https://i.imgur.com/WeaDx6F.pngΕρώτηση κρίσεως (μόνο για δυνατούς λύτες): ΠΩΣ γνωρίζουν ότι θα μειωθεί η ζήτηση για νέα κτίρια κατά -20% μέχρι το 2030; Πηγή: c40.org (συστημική/επίσημη, όχι συνωμοσιολογική) ΥΓ: Αυτά να τα βλέπουν όσοι αφελείς (το θέτω κομψά, γιατί υπάρχουν και «ευαίσθητοι») υποστηρίζουν το μισανθρωπικό αφήγημα της «ανθρωπογενούς» κλιματικής αλλαγής (λιγότεροι άνθρωποι -> λιγότερο CO2). Θα είναι οι πρώτοι που θα μας χαιρετήσουν (μαζί με το BTC stash τους)... Το κράτος ΔΕΝ είναι φίλος μας. Τα κτίρια ΔΕΝ είναι Bitcoin για να έχουν τεχνητή σπανιότητα. Όλη αυτή η κατάσταση μόνο τυχαία δεν είναι και σίγουρα ΔΕΝ αποτελεί ελεύθερη αγορά, αλλά κεντρικό σχεδιασμό ( κρυπτοκομμουνισμός by WEF). Ο νοών νοείτω... |
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Όλα αυτά τα BTC doomsaying posts τι σκοπό έχουν; Να μας δείξουν πόσο «καλό» είναι το centralized BSV υπό την ηγεσία του Faketoshi; Ρητορική ερώτηση φυσικά... |
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The reason why I believe privacy is #1 concern is because the direction in which the globalists are taking the world is complete control of everything. The want to control every living thing. Sounds like a conspiracy theory until you realize they say it in plain sight.
The CBDC (or whatever they chose to call it) is where everything changes. The best way to see the future they're planning is look at China & the social credit system. If you say the wrong thing about your government you can lose your privilege to board a train. Even this is just the tip of the iceberg compared to what they're planning.
One of the many reasons they're pushing climate change, so they can tie in multiple system of control. For instance, you've reached your total carbon credit for the month and cannot eat anymore beef, because cow farts are bad for the environment. So now they can freeze your money because your food intake is tracked. Yes Bitcoin is censorship resistant, however your connection the to internet is not.
All total BS to push us into total communism. The world is not what you think it is and that's why I think privacy will be very important.
Even people on this board still believe this is a silly tinfoil hat conspiracy theory ( "Digital ID is a good thing, it will reduce bureaucracy"  ) and also believe that human beings cause climate change (therefore a population reduction would be "appropriate") due to CO2 (which is plants' food). I say cull the useless eaters (their BTC will disappear from circulation if they don't inherit the private key to anyone), we don't need them anyway.  The jabs will do it either way... Regarding Monero, I think it has a real chance to replace cash, especially in notorious transactions (such as drugs, hookers and maybe even red meat, assuming it becomes illegal in the future). But Bitcoin will still be better for savings, since Monero has eternal inflation (tail emission). Monero for e-cash and Bitcoin for savings/digital gold sounds good enough to me. |
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I don't personally believe "milestones" or "checkpoints" to be the right approach. I outlined some reasons as to why back in 2020. Either every block is a checkpoint or none of them are. The ideal solution, in my mind, would be one in which users have some level of flexibility to determine their own level of involvement. Similar to what SegWit achieved. If users want to carry a smaller burden, they can just sync the 'legacy' blockdata and leave out the 'witness' while still contributing to, and taking part in, the network. The opt-in nature to retain a low barrier to entry is preferable to a one-size-fits-all approach, where we risk people digging their heels in and increasing the potential for a contentious fork. Increasing linear growth in the witness space is inherently more inclusive than forcing an increase upon everyone and risking greater division. What you're proposing is actually an ingenious solution and reminds me of AMD's x86-64 architecture 20+ years ago. What did AMD do? They took Intel's i386 proven architecture (despite not being perfect, especially compared to RISC behemoths) and extended it (double register width + double the amount of registers). You can operate an AMD64 processor in various ways (legacy i386 or 64-bit mode or even 16-bit mode for DOS apps)! On the other hand, Intel invented Itanium (a brand new, clean slate architecture) and it failed miserably. Eventually they were forced to copy AMD's approach. What's the lesson here for IT-minded folks?  I'm honestly surprised we have this kind of discussions in the Bitcoin community... I'm really curious to know the professional background of big blockers, if they have any. Something tells me they have almost zero IT experience, which explains their fallacious arguments... |
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Εγώ έχω γνωστούς που με φορολογημένα κέρδη από crypto αγόρασαν σπίτι ή αμάξι και η τοπική εφορία τους πέρασε κανονικά τον έλεγχο χωρίς ενστάσεις. Τζογάρεις: https://www.sofokleousin.gr/tous-zematise-i-eforia-gia-ta-kryptonomismataΕγώ πάντως -ιδεολογικά και μόνο- δεν βρίσκω θεμιτή καμία συνεργασία με το κράτος, ειδικά με όσα έχουν συμβεί τα τελευταία 4 χρόνια, αλλά και με όσα θα συμβούν τα επόμενα 6 χρόνια. |
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Well , seems that people will start to understand that "not your keys , not your coins" is just a myth . I think we are near to the point where "honest nodes" will start rejecting blocks mined by "dishonest nodes" . There is a war incoming , and maxis haven't realise that yet . Their myths are falling one after the other apart .
Your FUD is amazing... Are you trying to justify BSV's confiscation mechanism? @Εveryone HmmMAA is a BSV/CSW fanatic who loves spouting anti-BTC FUD. |
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BSV doomsayers... how cute! Plz don't bite their bait... |
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Εγώ δεν έχω θέμα αν είναι άτομα που εμπιστεύομαι, κάτι το οποίο δε μπορώ να πω για την πλειοψηφία του ελληνικού sub-board.
Aν θες τη γνώμη μου, κανέναν δεν χρειάζεται να "εμπιστεύεσαι". Νομίζω πως είναι πολύ δύσκολο να scamαριστεί κάποιος αν βρεθούν δυο μέλη του forum face to face και κανουν μια συναλλαγή. Το πιο δύσκολο θα ήταν να εκδηλωθει ενδιαφέρον για την πρόταση μου. Αν βρεθούν trading partners, δεν χρειάζεται και τεράστια εμπιστοσύνη. Φυσικά αυτή είναι απλώς η γνώμη μου ! Αν δεν είναι σημαντικό το premium στην τιμή, σιγά μην κάτσει να ασχοληθεί κάποιος να κλείσει ραντεβού στην Ομόνοια 2-3 μέρες πριν (κι αν γίνει κανά μπαμ με την Binance και πέσει το BTC? γιατί να μην δώσεις άμεσα spot sell order στην τιμή που βλέπεις?) με το κάθε σπυριάρικο nerd και να έχει και τα πρεζόνια δίπλα να λοξοκοιτάνε τα μετρητούλια... Μπαίνει σε ένα CEX με 2 κλικ και πουλάει σε μερικά δευτερόλεπτα. Μην ξεχνάμε ότι υπάρχουν και γυναίκες στον χώρο (λίγες, αλλά υπάρχουν). Όποιος δεν έχει βρεθεί με γυναίκα (βλ. incels) σε περιοχές πέριξ της Ομόνοιας/Μεταξουργείου, δεν μπορεί να διανοηθεί τον τρόμο στα μάτια τους από το οπτικοακουστικό θέαμα. Η εφορία δεν μπορεί να κάνει τίποτα για μικρά ποσά... θα πεις τα έκανα mine αν σε ρωτήσουν που τα βρήκες. Φορολογικό πλαίσιο για mining δεν υπάρχει στην Ελλάδα, ούτε καν ως επιχειρηματική δραστηριότητα. Κι άμα θέλουν πρόσβαση στο προσωπικό πορτοφόλι -> oops, I had a boating accident! Τι θα κάνουν μετά; $5 wrench attack; Ξέρω πολλούς με χιλιάδες BTC που θα παρακαλούσαν να τους σπάσουν ΟΛΑ τα δάκτυλα (και μετά να αγοράσουν καινούρια!) ΑΝ ήταν εφικτό να βρεθεί το ιδιωτικό κλειδί με άσκηση βίας. Αυτό που απασχολεί πολλούς είναι η αγορά ακινήτου/ΙΧ, αλλά σε μερικά χρόνια δεν θα υπάρχει καν ιδιοκτησία, οπότε δεν θα μπορείς έτσι κι αλλιώς να αγοράσεις (Digital ID + CBDC wallet -> €2000-3000 max cap). Για μένα το Bitcoin δεν είναι απλά «μπήκα για να βγάλω λεφτά», είναι και μια ολόκληρη πολιτική (libertarian) ιδεολογία από πίσω, η οποία συνοψίζεται στο εξής: "fuck the state". Μιλάμε για νταβατζήδες με κοστούμια. Συνεργάζεσαι οικειοθελώς (δήλωση crypto ως μετοχές στην φορολογική δήλωση) με κρατικούς νταβάδες και τους δίνεις μερτικό από το βιός σου; Είσαι υποτακτικός και σου αξίζουν τα χειρότερα .- |
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Πάντως παιδιά, χωρίς πλάκα, όσοι είμαστε στις ίδιες πόλεις μπορούμε να κανονίζουμε να κάνουμε ανταλλαγές. Από το να τις κάνουμε με αγνώστους. Μιλάω πάντα για face-2-face, μιας και το BISQ και το Robosats δουλεύει περίφημα για μένα ως τώρα.
Με τόση κρυψινίαση που υπάρχει εδώ μέσα, καλή τύχη να τους πείσεις! |
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I wonder who's going to pay 4 billion $. Definitely not CZ out of his own pocket. Can I have some cheap BTC buying opportunity (like FTX last year), pretty plz? |
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Επίσης η διαδικασία εγγραφής γίνεται μια φορά και δεν παίρνει πάνω από μισή ώρα. Όπως ακριβώς ισχύει στην Revolut.
Το να σπαταλάω μια βδομάδα σε sell order παραπάνω χρόνο θέλει...
Ακριβοί στα πίτουρα και φτηνοί στο αλεύρι.
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Το KYC εδώ και χρόνια δεν γίνεται από άνθρωπο, αλλά από AI και παίρνει λίγα λεπτά το πολύ. Επίσης η έννοια του spot sell order είναι η αμεσότητα. Ποτέ δεν έχω περιμένει πάνω από μερικά δευτερόλεπτα για να αγοράσω/πουλήσω. Το να περιμένω μια βδομάδα σε ένα ευμετάβλητο asset όπως το BTC για αγοραπωλησίες μου φαίνεται κάπως, αλλά όπως βολεύεται ο καθένας. Όποιος θέλει πλήρη ανωνυμία, η λύση δεν είναι ούτε DEX/Revolut. Η λύση είναι μετρητό και ραντεβού στην Ομόνοια (με κίνδυνο να σε ψειρίσουν βέβαια ). |
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Προσωπικά δεν με απασχολεί ιδιαιτέρως... Αν κάποιος μου χάριζε 10 BTC, δεν θα με ένοιαζε αν ήταν από KYC/CEX. Ποιός θα έλεγε όχι; Αγορασμένα στο όνομα του (έτσι θα φαίνεται στην chain analysis), αλλά στην πραγματικότητα δικά μου. Τι κατάφερε το KYC; Μια τρύπα στο νερό. Για αυτό λέμε ότι δεν έχει 100% ακρίβεια, αφού δουλεύει με heuristics στην blockchain. Αν θες να τα ξεπλύνεις (εγώ δεν καίγομαι), υπάρχουν πάντα και οι mixers. |
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Δυστηχώς, στις περισσότερες των περιπτώσεων ναι, αντιμετώπιζα και συνεχίζω να αντιμετωπίζω δυσκολίες. Το να ζήσεις με BTC είναι εφικτό, η αλλαγή όμως σε fiat παραμένει σε μεγάλο βαθμό αναγκαία. Αυτό όμως δεν σημαίνει πως δεν ζεις με BTC επειδή τα μετατρέπεις / πουλάς για fiat. Πιστεύω πως όσο διεκδικείς και ζητάς τις οποιοδήποτε συναλλαγές σου σε BTC, τόσο περισσότερο βάζεις και τον κόσμο σε σκέψεις και του δημιουργείς το κίνητρο να μπει στη διαδικασία αναζήτησης.
Το βασικό πρόβλημα για μένα είναι πως ο κόσμος φοβάται το P2P. Δεν θέλω να κάνω hijack τη συζήτηση. Αλλά νομίζω ταιριάζει να αναφερθεί ότι ο κόσμος για κάποιο λόγο εμπιστεύεται μόνο exchanges. Σε κάθε περίπτωση εγώ συνεχίζω να μην εμπιστεύομαι τίποτα. Δυστυχώς είμαι καχύποπτος πολύ ... Μακάρι να αλλάξει αυτο Δεν κατάλαβα τι εννοείς. Δεν εμπιστεύεσαι ούτε προσωπικό πορτοφόλι με τις 12 λέξεις; Δεν έχεις καθόλου BTC (no-coiner);  Μόνο ευρώ κρατάς; |
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But to be honest, after thinking for a while, I think we have another problem besides block size and they are miners. Mining is becoming way centralized, pools are collecting all the transaction fees and people are willing to join pools that don't share transaction fees. These pools are one of the biggest pools who can flood mempool with their resources and gain more profit. They can flood it easily because they confirm the blocks and fees go back to their pockets but increased block size should make it a little bit hard for them to do. Actually it's the opposite. If 4GB blocks become the norm (because that's what BSV folks envision), then FTTH would become mandatory. ADSL is still the most common (baseline) connection worldwide, hence why 1MB block size makes sense as a "baseline". Hell, I would argue that the few remaining, hyper-competitive pools would be concentrated into a single geographical spot (maybe USA?) and they wouldn't even use FTTH. They would just use LAN/Ethernet connections (1 Gbps symmetric) to sync with each other! Kinda like a LAN party if you will. BTC would turn from a permissionless network to permissioned (some pools already demand KYC). You really like this scenario? This is not very different compared to fiat/central banking (i.e. ECB TARGET2 ledger). I really wonder if big block fanatics are sincere good guys/idealists or government trojan horses/feds trying to hijack BTC, even though they pretend to preach "global adoption". I sincerely hope we won't have to find out... I wonder why we have to keep conflating the discussion with BSV and BCH. Already I've seen some BSV fans here (to clarify, I'm not one of them) that voiced their opinion saying that they're against a block capacity increase for BTC. Obviously their reasoning is that they believe they can do it bigger and better... But why should that concern us? Is the goal to improve BTC or not? Because obviously BSV as a ton of faults, and just because CSW is acting the way he does, it doesn't mean that bitcoin would have to fall in the same traps when implementing an improvement. At this point I find these arguments quite counterproductive to be honest. Bitcoin's development is supported by many scientists, if we all agreed that a slight block capacity increase is warranted, they'd find a way to implement it well enough so there are no fundamental issues. A slight capacity increase is not going to solve scaling issues (assuming mass adoption is the endgame) and still risks splitting the network in half. People need to find more ingenious solutions (soft forks like SegWit). Who knows, maybe if AI advances enough, it could do BTC R&D by itself (assuming people won't find a good enough solution). It won't be easy to reach a consensus regarding the "ideal" block size. Who determines what's ideal? For what purpose? Some people want BTC to be the be-all and end-all cryptocurrency and no alts to exist (such as LTC, DOGE, XMR). I get it, it sounds noble, but I'm afraid this is not going to happen. It hasn't happened to Linux distros AFAIK (tons of debates about the ideal distro, libraries etc.) There's a reason so many Linux distros exist. Same with cryptocurrencies. ps: A BTC hard fork will happen only when a real threat arises (such as mainstream quantum computing). |
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