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I would like to state here on behalf of Bitcoin Magazine that Matthew's bet has nothing at all to do with Bitcoin Magazine. This is not something approved by Bitcoin Magazine and images of Bitcoin Magazine placed in some documents related to Matthew's bet are used so without consent of Bitcoin Magazine and without consulting with board of directors of Bittalk Media Ltd ( publisher of Bitcoin Magazine ).
Matthew acts in his personal capacity and not as representative of Bitcoin Magazine or Bittalk Media Ltd.
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I still have the original version. It's "People so sure of themselves they're willing to piss away money on it" 35k now I would like to state here on behalf of Bitcoin Magazine that Matthew's bet has nothing at all to do with Bitcoin Magazine. This is not something approved by Bitcoin Magazine and images of Bitcoin Magazine placed there are used without consent of Bitcoin Magazine and without consulting with board of directors of Bittalk Media Ltd, ( publisher of Bitcoin Magazine ). |
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Quick correction. WHS launch is not set in stone, it is still being negotiated. There is a good chance that it will be pushed to issue #5.
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So all non-legitimate investments are ponzi's? No wonder! Good point. I think many here are so invested in the "ponzi proposition" that they're refusing to consider other possibilities. At the same time, it would be great if you could spell out your understanding of what pirate was up to (as long as it was legal ofc). What is there for you to lose at this point? Ponzi or not, there's no legal activity that I can think of that would allow paying such returns for any length of time. BTC is a legal grey area. There is nothing legally gray either about fraud or property rights. |
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I can't stand how people keep bringing up the yearly compounded interest rate and how it was impossible.
Bitcoin Savings & Trust didn't even run for a year.
Get back to us once you understand meaning of compound interest, annual ROI and APR (AER to be more accurate, we are not talking about US version of APR here). |
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The extraordinary claim is not that pirate and his crew run a ponzi. The extraordinary and preceding claim is that pirate and his crew are operating some biz model producing ~14204% annual ROI and that it reasonably requires capital to be borrowed at ~3372% APR.
As such the burden of proof never even initially was on JoelKatz. It was and is on pirate and his shills and his captives and simply idiots who think that a biz model with 14204% ROI biz model is in a realm of possibility.
Even if the above is not the case, and someone first claimed that pirate is operating a ponzi, and only after that pirate claimed his magical money making machine existence. Still Occam's Razor argument effectively shifts burden of proof back to pirate and his shills.
Nobody needs to prove anything to claim that an operation claiming ~14204% annual ROI (10%/week) and requiring capital to be borrowed at ~3372% APR (7% a week) is indeed a ponzi scheme (or some other kind of fraud and combination of various fraudulent activities) for all practical purposes until proven otherwise.
The only slight innacuracy here is saying that it is definitely a ponzi. It is just being said so for convenience and simplicity. There of course could be other types of fraud involved and even one type of fraud could be converted into other type of fraud over time etc.
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Goat, you are wiggling too much. Simply answer these simple question honestly if you capable of that.
- have you managed a proxy for an opaque investment that has exhibited all the classical signs of a ponzi scheme?
- have you profited or expected to profit from prolongation and proliferation of a ponzi scheme?
- have you owed a duty of care and fiduciary duty to anyone who gave you money?
- have you provided adequate risk disclosures?
- have you implied at any time that pirate is not operating a ponzi scheme?
- have you implied at any time that you know some magical/secret biz model behind pirate operation?
- have you implied at any time that you know true identity of pirate?
- have you promoted investment into and lent credibity (or false credibility) to a ponzi scheme in any way?
- have you tried to silence, spam, mock, attack those who publicly warned about the risks of investing into such schemes?
- ought you to know better?
- what is you your real name and address for service of legal papers?
These are simple questions. Answer them if you dare.
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Last week of part 2 will be about one of the topics chosen by "popular demand". Elliptic curve cryptography is on the list. How about ganging up to demand that?
I'd love to learn that. |
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awesome! signed up too, some refresher never hurts
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If Pirate pays eveyone then I do stand to make a tidy profit. If he does not pay everyone then I stand to lose a lot of my BTC.
it was foretold: ...
Let's just list some of fallacies that have been routinely used and/or likely will be used shortly by team "pirate, the miracle worker" (and by other community members on other topics too, of course):
...
Argumentum ad misericordiam:
"I did not murder my mother and father with an axe! Please don't find me guilty; I'm suffering enough through being an orphan.", "I lost so much money on ponzi and stupid bets, I am suffering enough, do not tell me that I am guilty of promoting and conspiring in a ponzi scheme and a scammer"
...
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So police report was filed right?
Nahh, I've considered it as not serious. However, one more wrong move from him and I'll press on as a tonn of bricks. |
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No you don't because that is complete and pure hyperbole. Not a single person has calimed they will engage in vigilantism and even if they did that would be what 1 (or a handful) out of tens of thousands.
I've actually reported several over the last few days and the forum mods seem to be cleaning them up pretty quick. LOL, RolloPollyBrownShit guy put up a bounty on me today. Mods deleted it. Why did he do that ? I would guess organizing a bitcoin meetup is quite an offense in his eyes. |
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… i definitely rate personal responsibility way above victimism... people have noone to blame but themselves.
If one of the victims had said that, I might not have replied, but if you say it, a few words are in order. i am one of the 'victims', therefore didn't bother reading the rest as the logic doesn't follow... i've lost 5300 btc. i'm sure micon and the likes will love to hear me publish my exact personal stake. but clearly, i take sole responsibility for losing those coins. edit: okay so i read a bit more of your post... if pirate doesn't pay out i've made practically nothing at all from this venture. perhaps 20 btc, haha i'm rich! it was foretold: ...
Let's just list some of fallacies that have been routinely used and/or likely will be used shortly by team "pirate, the miracle worker" (and by other community members on other topics too, of course):
...
Argumentum ad misericordiam:
"I did not murder my mother and father with an axe! Please don't find me guilty; I'm suffering enough through being an orphan.", "I lost so much money on ponzi and stupid bets, I am suffering enough, do not tell me that I am guilty of promoting and conspiring in a ponzi scheme and a scammer"
...
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No you don't because that is complete and pure hyperbole. Not a single person has calimed they will engage in vigilantism and even if they did that would be what 1 (or a handful) out of tens of thousands.
I've actually reported several over the last few days and the forum mods seem to be cleaning them up pretty quick. LOL, RolloPollyBrownShit guy put up a bounty on me today. Mods deleted it. |
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This is how I read the following post: I would have posted here sooner but, in fact, I just learned about this thread. My "trip report" has already been copied. As Goat said, with a little thought I had figured out what he was doing before I went. I went for a good time - and had one. We did talk "business" a bit and that was fun. I do appreciate the long post from The Joint because it is genuine and not just another "this is an obvious ponzi, I know everything, you are all stupid" post so I promise to answer the questions in it but I have to go to my day job now. I met pirate, he is real and legit and I will answer ANY questions you'd like.. I will quickly give you the simple stategy I used to figure it out. If you try to figure out what he does and how it works from the assumption that it is impossible then, well, you obviously will never figure it out. When I re-read everything he has ever posted from the working assumption that what he is doing is possible this left my mind open and able to figure it out. Just do that, assume it is possible, go to his profile, read every post. Try it. ..but hey, you don't really need my answer, you can find them yourself, you just have to believe it's possible to be legit and pay what pirate pays. Now have faith and go read his every post.. How much he reveals or does not reveal (and he actually reveals a lot) is up to him. So no, I will not reveal what it is. Get off you lazy ass and figure it out for yourself just like I did. ..in fact, I wont even tell you anything because it's that easy to "figure it out", and if you can't, well then that's pirates decision and your just SOL... One final note: eventually others will figure it out, do it, and with competition we can all say goodbye to the great returns. You all know where I stand. I will use this window of opportunity and I offer the opportunity to others thought the PPT.x bond system. If you don't want to invest then don't. If you do invest in anything, Facebook, Google, BS&T, US treasury bonds, don't ever invest more than you can afford to lose - there is risk in every investment. .. so you see, it's all transparent really which is why you only have a limited time to take advantage of this excellent "opportunity" so go on, call 080-pirate-ponzi now, and "invest" your money ASAP. But don't say we didn't warn you, you might lose everything because it actually is a ponzi.. but hey, you can lose money doing anything, right? Why not lose it with us.. Carry on with your ponzi shill screaming now, I am sure that is enough fodder to keep you going for a few days.
EDIT: a little more specific on the frame of mind to be in when you read the posts. Your answer must be totally allowed by all US law and something your wife, who is an attorney for the sake of this exercise, would not only let you do but would endorse.
Hint: you must really really believe it and don't tell it to anyone otherwise it wont come true..  Interesting post. This post has disapeared somehow. If I understand it correctly Burt Wagner was quoted as saying: Carry on with your ponzi shill screaming now, I am sure that is enough fodder to keep you going for a few days.
EDIT: a little more specific on the frame of mind to be in when you read the posts. Your answer must be totally allowed by all US law and something your wife, who is an attorney for the sake of this exercise, would not only let you do but would endorse.
That would be nice to have that Burt's post "undeleted" and posted here. |
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Consider it as a call option without expiration date (or one at some point in very far feature) on something like BRK/A or MSFT or INTC or well... LEH, decades ago.
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@ Vlad At first when your mag called this a ponzi I was happy cuz I knew that when it was shown not to be a ponzi your mag would lose face. But then I realized the odds are much greater that your mag goes out of print way before Pirates bank closes up...
@ Raphy Yes, I will insure Pirate funds (as stated in my insurance thread). The reason for the fee is not because of the ponzi risk but because of other risks. Real risks that no one seems to ever point out cuz they can't get over the ponzi theme. Also there is a fee because opportunity cost. If I use the BTC for insurance then I can't use it in other places.
The one thing that I have noticed is the more people yell herrp a derrp ponzi the more people invest after checking it out. You guys are helping this grow. No one with half a brain thinks it is a ponzi...
6 months from now you will be calling ponzi, 1 year from now you will be calling it a ponzi. We get it you think it is a ponzi move on unless you really have nothing better to do with your life.
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Theymos, you have your opinion, I have mine. We can agree to disagree. This is a relatively minor point anyway.
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Where can you show that Theymos or myself said we did not think it was a ponzi? And stop hiding behind Theymos. Based on that thread, it seems all Theymos possibly needs to do is to apologize to the community for his short-sightedness and disgorge ill-gotten profits, perhaps by making a donation to a worthwhile cause. While all the shills likely shall face criminal investigation or worse and face the consequences of their actions. |
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