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521  Other / Politics & Society / Re: Why do people think income tax is ok? on: January 27, 2014, 09:01:21 PM
You and I have so much we agree on. Let me be clear:
 
just go into politics, acquire money and power, and do whatever they heck they want and "die happy" rather than wasting their time on internet forums. It's all just arbitrary, right?

Of course I believe in morals, and I believe in rights, but to believe that any one right is absolute is extreme, absolutist, and frankly very american. As far as I am concerned, the basic objective of all morality should be to increase the quality of life of as many people as possible by as much as possible, and rights are a tool to achieve this end. I believe that people should have a right not to starve or die from treatable diseases. I believe that people should have a right to education. I also believe in a right to property, but that the first three (and others) are equally important. It would be great if a government could uphold all of those rights, but I don't think it's possible. Upholding rights costs wealth, and wealth starts out as people's property.

Aside from that minor hiccup,  we seem to have a lot in common. I think that tax avoidance by the super rich is one of the very greatest moral wrongs being perpetrated in our society. I think that taxes on the middle classes and small businesses are too high, but should they pay them at all? I think so. I absolutely agree that vast amounts of poor people are poor because they have been exploited and ripped off by the wealthy, but even in a near-ideal society the free market would produce winners and losers. What stops these winners from becoming the next oligarchs if not regulation and redistributive taxation? You are so right that too many governments are appallingly corrupt, but why not focus our efforts on fixing that instead of abolishing government altogether? As I say, however much more our governments have to improve, they have already come so far. On the other hand, can you point to a time when the abolition of democracy has led to an improvement in a population's quality of life? If companies are free to do as they please - to amass as much wealth as they please - then a small number of companies will establish a monopoly over all markets and services, and hey presto, there's your new government. Only you don't get the vote this time around.

Please don't mistake my thinking that rights should not be absolute to mean that I don't think they are important, just that I believe that society is vast, rich, diverse and beautiful, and it can't function via the absolutist application of simple rules, like a game of chess or the bitcoin protocol. Rights are complicated and contextual and they change according to the needs of people which makes them stronger, not weaker.

Again, I'm well aware that governments fail to live up to these ideals, but I don't think we'd be better off without them.

A government without the ability to use force, i.e. specifically to tax, is a government incapable of allowing businesses monopoly and thus the ability to become rich in the first place; this means, without the government to tax the rich, there wouldn't be any rich, for there is nothing to shield a corporation from unethical behavior and nothing to allow a corporation unfair practice among their small-business competition.  Without this use of force, people would be able to work without the expensive governmental overhead, without the laws which steal from the poor to give to the rich in the first place (which effectively removes the need for you to, again, steal from the rich to give back to the poor who would then be stolen from again thanks to government), meaning they would make more and could work less, which means they could afford food, housing, clothes, health care, education, without the need to steal back the money taken from them.  Instead of taking from the people to take care of the people (with all the government waste in between), the most practical, cost-effective and humanitarian approach is to simply not steal from the people in the first place.

Instead of viewing the poor as a bunch of animals that must be cared for by the rich pet owners, why not take your foot off their throat and let them help themselves?  Why do you agree with the horrendous practices of the rich whilst simultaneously claiming you're trying to help the poor?

Furthermore, I detest your skewed representation of "rights".  A right only functions when the parties involved agree upon them and agree to defend them; the idea that rights are granted by government is akin to saying that nobody has rights but what the masters of a given society allow them to have, which do not count as rights, but only as privileges, as you mother and father would give you when you're young, or, as mentioned, the owner of a pet.  This further points out your view of the poor being animals to be owned, and it's repulsive, and I insist that you live up to your claim to believing in morality because this does not cut it.
522  Other / Beginners & Help / Re: There aren't many places to exchange USD for BTC in the United States on: January 26, 2014, 07:53:51 PM
There would be, if not for all these rules and regulations.
523  Other / Off-topic / Re: I think I'm in love. Seriously! I'm in love. on: January 26, 2014, 06:28:54 AM
524  Other / Politics & Society / Re: I want to help people with my knowledge of how we and the world are controlled on: January 26, 2014, 04:28:17 AM
ASPARTAME

Aspartame (AKA nutrasweet, APM) is a lethal chemical used mainly in Diet Sodas/drinks (mainly SUGAR-FREE) as an artificial/replacement sweetener, and widely found in chewing gum.

In Europe and the UK it is labelled as E951 on drinks/foods.

Aspartame is lethal, and was introduced into the 'food chain' by Donald Rumsfeld when he
was chairman of Searle.

Please watch the following documentary about Aspartame:-

Aspartame - Sweet Misery - A Poisoned World
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=owtF2nt2VX4

This stuff is being targetted at kids, please read all labels before buying/consuming sodas/drinks/foods. There are other 'sugar substitutes' which are also damaging to the brain and body. Avoid everything with sugar substitutes in them. Diet coke is especially lethal, as are other diet sodas made by the 'big' (Illuminati-owned) companies.

Please pass this information on to others, it is extrememly important to share. Thanks for watching and reading.


Never knew about this one; I'd stick to water, but that's drugged as well.
525  Other / Off-topic / Re: black people not into bitcoin? on: January 26, 2014, 03:00:24 AM
I'm fairly certain zhou tonged is black.
526  Other / Politics & Society / Re: Why do people think income tax is ok? on: January 24, 2014, 07:44:36 PM
Do you truly believe the rich, who game politics to begin with, are going to agree to simply giving their money away? 

Mike - I'd be happy if you could agree to them simply giving their money away !!

I understand why they don't want the tax - but I can't quite get my head around why you don't.

Hey - they haven't got you on the payroll have they ?  Wink

I believe I've made my case clear: I'm not a thief, and I will not stoop to their levels.  I'm not advocating against the rich being taxed, I'm advocating against involuntary association.  If the rich can't use force to get their way, they can't be rich through illegitimate means.  Thus, the only rich people of this planet are those who are most valuable to us; I don't want these people taxed, as they are not thieves.

Your system just permeates the current system, where thieves are on the top of the world and continue to exploit as they see fit, except you get to live off other people via stolen money.  Aside from being completely dependent on the state (can you say fascism?), do you see the ethical problem?
527  Other / Politics & Society / Re: Why do people think income tax is ok? on: January 24, 2014, 07:24:32 PM

I think becoming a thief and liar because you were stolen from and lied to makes you the same as the men you are against.

Hold on - so if I was stolen from and lied to, and then take back that which was initially stolen from me via lies and duplicity - then I too am a liar and a thief ??

Doesn't sound quite right to me  Huh

To me the word is - justice

Yes, if you lie and steal, you are a thief and liar.  You enable the cycle to continue by admitting that theft and lies are acceptable; eventually you must put your foot down and proclaim that you've had enough, otherwise you're no better than the people who stole and lied to get their way.

Besides, your system is impossible; if you live in a society with a rich 1%, the only way they got there was through government force.  Do you truly believe the rich, who game politics to begin with, are going to agree to simply giving their money away?  You forget the fact that you're advocating an "orts off the table" system, where you're okay with the rich getting rich from the use of coercion, as long as you get a cut from the stolen goods.  This is a very unique definition of justice, I think.
528  Other / Politics & Society / Re: Why do people think income tax is ok? on: January 24, 2014, 07:04:58 PM
Why have any involuntary payments to a central authority?

Well, because although they might be involuntary for the 1%, they aren't for those of us who believe that 1% have acquired that wealth via less than just means or merely via exploiting wage labour. We are the 99% Wink

  Isn't that what BTC is all about ? Isn't that what democracy is all about ? Huh

   Why don't we find a different name for "tax" that might let the libertarians among us believe that its something they'd thought up - and not a Government.  Why don't we call it a voluntary community based tariff - or something similar ? It would still be totally essential and requisite to the just and equitable organic survival of the community - but at least this way some people wouldn't feel as though they were pouring money down the drain. They would be able to (in the words of that great American William James) "make felicitous and easy what in any case is necessary".

    Great philosophy emanating from across the pond - pragmatism. Voluntary community based tariff - I like it  Grin

How do you feel about that ?

I think becoming a thief and liar because you were stolen from and lied to makes you the same as the men you are against.
529  Other / Politics & Society / Re: Why do people think income tax is ok? on: January 24, 2014, 06:57:13 PM
Why have any involuntary payments to a central authority?

practicaldreamer should be able to live under his tax-the-1% model, if he chooses

hilariousandco should be able to live under his dependency based model, if he chooses

Everyone else should be free to choose which one to join.


The difference seems to be intolerance of anything else: I (and others) are advocating letting people choose which overall system they want. Others are saying "you can't choose that version, because of this reason". Why can't people choose, and then see which way works?

The reason being, those models would fall apart without someone at the end of the gun; advocates of taxation must advocate secular involuntary association, otherwise the 1%ers would leave to another society where they wouldn't be taxed, and the people who were being depended on would leave to another society where they wouldn't be; this leaves both the initial nations in shambles.  The idea of taxation mandates there being no alternative; if you allow people the freedom of choice, how could you legally take from them?  They would simply deny you the right; taxation becomes unenforceable under the principle of voluntary association.
530  Other / Politics & Society / Re: Meet “The Kronies” on: January 24, 2014, 06:17:40 PM
I don't think I've ever seen something so perfect.  The only characters I don't quite understand are Parts & Labor, however; can someone elaborate what they represent?
531  Other / Politics & Society / Re: Kiddie Porn Does Not Count as ‘Moral Turpitude’ to San Francisco Govt. on: January 24, 2014, 05:07:12 AM
I was unaware these kinds of people actually existed for realsies.  Good thing we have all this government to put a stop to it.
532  Economy / Economics / Re: America's secret currency better than Bitcoin ??? on: January 24, 2014, 04:53:57 AM
"fad"
"so-called"
"secretly"
"no one is telling you"

Sewing the seeds of doubt takes effort, you know.
533  Other / Politics & Society / Re: Why do people think income tax is ok? on: January 24, 2014, 04:47:44 AM
The reason that I think that income tax is okay is that my government uses it to do useful things for everyone.  One example is funding the public transportation system which we all benefit from (both riders and non-riders benefit; non-riders benefit from reduced traffic on the roads).  There are many other examples of useful things which can be done with taxes.

We can argue anything is okay if it has benefits; perhaps the holocaust benefited someone who needed a Jew dead.  Naturally, we view the holocaust as a bad thing, because we apply the concepts of ethics.  I personally believe ethics should come standard to any society, otherwise it only collapses in the end; without a clear vision of what's acceptable behavior and what isn't, we get stuck with dichotomies such as, "It's okay for these people to steal and kidnap, but not okay for those people", and law so convoluted that not even lawyers understand it completely, so overdone that the average Joe commits at least one crime daily.  Naturally, anyone who wants to steal and kidnap legally flocks to the first group, and anyone who believes in a virtuous society gets stuck at the wrong end of the gun; it punishes the good and rewards the bad, and I'm certain you would agree that this is not the kind of behavior we should respond positively to, especially not when we have our own laws against theft that do not apply to this special group.

You are arguing that theft is moral if it leads to positive outcomes; this is an impossible position to hold without the belief that not everyone deserves equal rights, with yourself being one of those people who requires less rights than others, which is the most troubling aspect of such a belief; surely you seek the same rights as everyone else, don't we all?  If some people can steal, why can't we all?  Rather, I would prefer it if we all had this right to protect ourselves from thieves, as opposed to the right of robbing everyone, as the former seems sustainable.

Even if the stolen money is used for good deeds, are you not capable of paying for these good deeds voluntarily?  Are there unknown forces of this world which prevents people from paying for the transportation that only the group with special rights can conquer?  It seems unlikely to me.
534  Other / Beginners & Help / Re: Went from Member to Newbie ?? on: January 24, 2014, 01:41:39 AM
I believe the powers that be mentioned that it's a glitch and that they're looking into it.
535  Bitcoin / Press / Re: [2014-01-24] JPMorgan Chase CEO denounces bitcoin as ‘terrible,’ predicts down on: January 23, 2014, 11:40:15 PM
He doesn't have to use it Grin
536  Other / Politics & Society / Re: Blockchain used to build vote system on: January 22, 2014, 08:28:05 PM
Unnecessary, vote with your actions in day to day life.
537  Other / Politics & Society / Re: Libertarians... if you could change 1 thing in the US constitution.... on: January 22, 2014, 02:31:46 AM
I would get rid of the electoral college. Just have a popular vote for president.

The electoral college is a thing of beauty. Otherwise cali and ny would pick the president every election. Think of the electoral college as the World Series. You have 50 contests instead of 7. Each contest though is still weighted by the number of people in each state.

Remove the states from the idea; just let every American individual have an equal vote on who the president will be.  Not every New Yorker and Californian is going to be the same fellow.
538  Other / Politics & Society / Re: Why do people think income tax is ok? on: January 22, 2014, 02:27:44 AM
snip

The issue with the football manager example is thus: the football manager doesn't force the football players to take advice from him (i.e., if one of the players truly and utterly doesn't believe in his plays, then he will simply quit, as opposed to being thrown in jail in the example of the citizen not following advice (i.e. law) from the state.)  Though I agree that there will always be leaders in this world, for this implies there are some people who are more intelligent or wise or skillful than others (which I believe to be entirely true), they must remain as leaders to be counted as leaders; once a supposed leader imposes himself onto his subjects, he then becomes a ruler.  Certainly societies will have leaders who recommend courses of actions, but if these people are truly fit for such advice, they will naturally accrue a following, rather than forcing people to follow as is the case now (after all, if it's good advice, it would be voluntary, assuming people have rational self-interest which I believe they do.)  As per my political philosophy: so long as it is voluntary.

Anyhow, on the matter of cooperative-competitive relationships: I have such a relationship with my best friend, he and I are writers.  We share advice on the ways we do things because we want to improve; however, we also compete to show one another that this or that can be done better.  It's a benign relationship at best, certainly not the typical view of competition, and there are certainly more writers in the marketplace than just he and I that we must compete against, but I'm a peaceful fellow myself so that's about all there is from me Tongue  We can scale this relationship between businesses: two businesses exist in a small area--let's say, within the same suburb--and each sell basics for everyday life, such as bathroom and kitchen supplies, basic groceries, medicine, etc.  They cooperate by agreeing not to impede upon each other's businesses; they won't burn each other's stores down, try to steal each other's customers, and won't make nasty untruthful snarks about the other.  However, they also compete: to gain business, they each must provide something better that the other doesn't, whilst ensuring they offer these as the lowest possible price.  If one tries to charge too much, the other undercuts them and gains business; if the other tries to sell an inferior product, the customers have an alternative to turn to.  If they both attempt it (i.e. price fixing), a third business sprouts up and everyone flocks to them.  They agree to compete and cooperate, just as athletes would in the Olympics; they do not attack each other so that they can get an advantage, they cooperate and compete; just as rival bands would (well, perhaps the milder ones), they do not smash each other's instruments or break the drummer's fingers, they instead compete and cooperate.

We don't always do it tho; you and I cooperate with our talks, but I'm not entirely sure we compete; perhaps if our political ideas differed and we were actively trying to accrue a following into either camp, we'd compete, but I'd rather we got along Smiley  Anyway, that's not to say that competition can't eventually disappear; if that business mentioned before did such a tremendous job that the other businesses could not compete at all, then that business becomes a monopoly, but of a different sort we're used to: this monopoly offers the greatest service for the lowest prices, and makes it impossible for others to compete, at least in the area (I doubt a corporation can keep this kind of service and price going universally, but that's just my take on it; it'd be wonderful if this were possible but I have my doubts.)

I do agree somewhat with your assertion of Libertarians and Anarchists of America; I don't think people will naturally and voluntarily agree that certain individuals will be able to keep their stake of power over areas of land.  I think, without the use of force, this land will be much more divided and even among people (what good is land if nobody will agree to work on it?--what good is ownership if none agree to your owning it?), and places of work will not necessarily have an owner, but perhaps, as you mentioned, a leader, and people would then take a much more even cut of the profit, thereby squashing the class divide (mostly; that's not to say some people won't strike it rich with their products, i.e. Notch and Minecraft, but in general people will be much wealthier than before.)  
539  Other / Off-topic / Re: i made a videogame about hispanic food on: January 21, 2014, 08:49:49 AM
I'm really digging that credits theme music.
I love that credit music too, but have no idea how to find it Huh

http://youtu.be/aOgT6GJmmMI
540  Other / Off-topic / Re: New electronic anal beads and butt plug on amazon on: January 21, 2014, 04:30:50 AM
sanitary glove

Well, so long as you're having clean fun.
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