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Author Topic: [ANN] SpreadCoin | Decentralize Everything (decentralized blockexplorer coming)  (Read 790353 times)
coins101
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January 26, 2017, 07:38:08 AM
 #5321

Incidentally, cryptographic proof of bitcoin node has reportedly been solved by another project.

What project has reportedly solved it?

Sorted that problem out in September

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1045373.msg16132911#msg16132911
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January 26, 2017, 07:42:26 AM
 #5322

I'm not comfortable filling this thread with petty arguments so I'm going to stop now.  A reminder of what Geroeg is working on to cleanse the palate:

So finally here it is, the update about the current state of work regarding servicenodes and spreadcoin.

I'm happy to report that development is going very well, much better than before,
also because finally there is a very clear vision about the direction we will take with servicenodes.

Contrary to previous estimations that saw "blank servicenodes" (whatever that meant) arrive on testnet at the end of 2015,
the insights I gathered during nov/dec 2015 led me to the invention of an actually useful first service which will allow us
to build a network of servicenodes that will be valuable way beyond just the spreadcoin community.

So, instead of you further waiting for "Something something servicenodes" to arrive soon, you will now know exactly what to expect as the first basic service, namely a...

Decentralized Blockexplorer

I'll let a few Screenshots of the current wallet speak:



(the ugly welcoming screen of the old wallet has disappeared, and people are directly seeing the input field of the decentralized blockexplorer, ready for immediate use)



(As an example I show one of the top Bitcoin addresses. It works exactly as you would expect from the many hundreds of centralized blockexplorers out there)



(And one of the top Dash Addresses.)


So what does this mean?

The first fully functioning service that will be enabled through servicenodes is a distributed decentralized blockexplorer, accessible thrugh the spreadcoin wallet (and spreadcoin daemon / RPC)

People who run a servicenode can host any other coin they like on the same server and register it with the servicenode.
Any such coin will then be searchable through the decentralized blockexplorer. (If a coin isn't atleast hosted by a certain amount of servicenodes (to be determined) the coin isn't considered.)

All hosted coins need to be full node daemons, but they can run without tx-indexing and disable their wallet-functionality.
The only requirement is that those daemons create and maintain a full blockchain by themselves, on the same server.

Since anyone is allowed to host any coin they like (power to the people!), we are going to see a spread of different setups of course.
See for example this servicenode overview screen that lists all the current servicenodes that I run in my small homework right now:



(People can add completely new coins, or drop old ones, it's completely their own decision)


So how does it work?

Within every servicenode runs a tool called Universal Blockchain Analyzer (UBA).
It is capable of identifying and dissecting any blockchain (as long as it doesn't divert too much from current standards, but this can be further improved),
and creates its own optimized datastructure from all the data it gathers, for every coin that is registered with the servicenode (happens through the .conf file)

While this process happens, the UBA communicates and compares key data elements with other servicenodes in the network.

That's the job of the UBA: to convert relevant blockchain data for fast and easy distributed access thru the servicenode network.

The coin daemons themselves run without any disturbance. In fact the admin needs to start / stop them himself, the servicenodes won't interfere in any way with that procedure.
It is merely required that the servicenode daemon has read access to the blockchain folder of each coin, and nothing else!



Now a few more details about the servicenodes themselves.

Servicenodes that host full nodes and distribute derived blockchain data to the network to be used in the decentralized blockexplorer will earn a certain percentage of the mining reward (to be determined).

As has been planned for a long time, servicenodes won't require a fix collateral, instead the collateral will be determined by the free market.
An artificial competitive situation is created by only allowing a certain maximum amount of servicenodes to exist.
This limit isn't fixed either, it grows slowly over time.

As an example, in my home network I implemented a limit that is calculated with this formula: (total coinsupply) / 2000:



This means that with every 2000 coins that are mined there is one servicenode allowed.
(But 2000 is just an example, and will have to be determined in testnet. A few months ago we used 2880 to make a few interesting calculations.)

As you can see in the screenshots I currently run 9 Servicenodes on 9 computers.
Current total coinsupply in my very new fork is 19119, which divided by 2000 allows for 9 servicenodes to exist (or fewer, but not more).

As you can see each of these Servicenodes has its own idea about the collateral it wants to use, and this diversification creates yet another spread!

All Servicenodes are sorted according to the collateral they are willing to invest, from smallest to biggest. (the more the better)
In my example, the weakest Servicenode uses just over 100 SPR, and the strongest about 3000 SPR.

As seen in the last screenshot (Spread Distribution Screen) the distribution will probably most of the time look similar to a ski-jump.

Now why is the Servicenode with the smallest collateral called "weakest link"?


("weakest link")

Well, because an available seat isn't assigned to the same servicenode forever.
All seats are constantly on sale even the ones that are currently occupied (  Grin )

This means that when a newcomer arrives and he finds no empty seat, he might decide to grab one of the seats away from someone else's arse.
(but he can also come a little later when a new additional seat was created, but so will others... )

Let's imagine a few scenarios, using my example.

The 9 Servicenodes in my home network use these collaterals:

100.001
107.001
120
190.3122
335
425.1
502
1010
3000.191998


Now, imagine a newcomer arrives and wants a seat.
He could be a cheap shot and just invest 100.002, but this would be enough to "kick" the servicenode currently sitting at the weakest seat out of the race.

(BTW, "kicking" in this context merely means that the servicenode doesn't receive any rewards anymore. It does not shut down the server or any full node, or anything like that.
But what happens is that the UBA stops working, since it doesn't recognize its servicenode as valid anymore.)

What then happens, is that the newcomer becomes the new weakest link with his 100.002 collateral.

But say he would want to invest 2000 as collateral.
Now the same weakest link loses the seat, but the next 7 seats all slip down one seat, since they all must make room at the second highest seat, because that's where the 2000er is going to sit.

In this situation the servicenode that was sitting at the second lowest seat now suddenly finds itself in the weakest link position and runs the risk of losing its status next time someone appears.

And that's basically how this game will be played: a continuous switching of seats, particularly in the lower area.
If you hate this situation already, I suggest you invest lots of SPR as collateral.

Because there is a way how you can basically completely secure a seat for the foreseeable future.



This symbol indicates a servicenode that has such a high collateral, that it would require more than the current total coinsupply to kick this node 9 seats down!
Since this servicenode has a collateral of 3000 and it would require 9 newcomers to each invest MORE than these 3000, this would add up to an amount larger than all money that currently exists.

And therefor this seat can be considered truly secure.

BUT!
... since the total coinsupply continues to grow everyday (but slower and slower) even a now truly secured servicenode can easily be dropped down a few seats, the more free money is around and gets locked in servicenodes.

It is important to understand that "holding a high seat" has no benefits whatsoever, other than keeping you away as far as possible from the weakest link (the only "point of departure").

So the best place to actually be in is somewhere in the middle, as indicated by this symbol:



This symbolises the seat that represents the arithmetic mean of the sum of all money locked in servicenodes divided by amount of servicenodes.

It can be argued that this seat (and seats close to it) are very secure, and a user that keeps adding to his collateral so that he keeps being near this mean will basically never lose his reward.


....


Alright, I could go on forever, but it's getting late.

Last thing I wanted to mention for today is the actual "servicenode manage screen":



It's where you will create new servicenodes and control the ones you already run.
(ofcourse everything will also be possible through commandline)
My goal will be to make the handling of servicenodes very easy and straight forward.
I do have a few fancy ideas about this that I want to further explore.

There is much more to mention and discuss but that's for another day.
(particularly how we tie an actual logo and name to a hosted coin is interesting)

The future looks very clear now for spreadcoin.
What I just presented is what the first testnet version will look like.

By implementing this first service we are going to build the perfect playground for the further development of the servicenode network (which will see the likes of "Proof of Bitcoin Node", a decentralized searchengine and exchange, and possibly Big Data Services in some form or another. There is lots to explore and only one rule: it needs to follow the principles of "true decentralization").

And last but not least:

I expect that I need another 50 hours or so to finish everything and put all the loose ends together before we can start testing it.

This could mean best case, that I will be ready in 1 week, or worst case by the end of january.


I will keep you updated about the progress in much more detail from now on!

Stay tuned!

P.S. I will update roadmap, website, etc... tomorrow!
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January 26, 2017, 07:45:08 AM
 #5323

Incidentally, cryptographic proof of bitcoin node has reportedly been solved by another project.

What project has reportedly solved it?

Its going to be tabled as a BIP paper to give anybody the chance to implement it I believe.
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January 26, 2017, 07:49:51 AM
 #5324

Incidentally, cryptographic proof of bitcoin node has reportedly been solved by another project.

What project has reportedly solved it?

Its going to be tabled as a BIP paper to give anybody the chance to implement it I believe.

Interesting, thank you.

Do you have a link or the BIP number?

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January 26, 2017, 10:50:08 AM
 #5325

All I said, as did Coins101, is that Bitcoin has failed its biggest goal...to be useful to the masses. Its adoption rate is poor and its practical applications, at the moment, are narrow.  That is not the same as calling it a shitcoin.


Well that's not exactly true. Check out all the countries that hit ATH for volume on localbtc in just the last month.
https://coin.dance/volume/localbitcoins

Being an early adopter means you wait until the masses finally get how something is useful. There will likely be another year or two before some app or other big idea makes it known by even the non-tech savvy people in society.
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January 26, 2017, 10:57:19 AM
 #5326

All I said, as did Coins101, is that Bitcoin has failed its biggest goal...to be useful to the masses. Its adoption rate is poor and its practical applications, at the moment, are narrow.  That is not the same as calling it a shitcoin.


Well that's not exactly true. Check out all the countries that hit ATH for volume on localbtc in just the last month.
https://coin.dance/volume/localbitcoins

Being an early adopter means you wait until the masses finally get how something is useful. There will likely be another year or two before some app or other big idea makes it known by even the non-tech savvy people in society.

I appreciate that it is a contentious view but I stand by it.  Bitcoin is not useful enough to people yet. It is virtually entirely an investment vehicle at the moment with a smaller subset of payment uses.

I'm not so sure that Bitcoin is going to be the first to be widely adopted.  If it is, it won't be in only one to two years imo.

Some people have deduced that less than one million people use Bitcoin globally.  I don't know if that is true or not, it is very hard to estimate but it is a long way from the 200 million Paypal users, 100 million instagram users or one billion whatsapp users.
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January 26, 2017, 12:49:02 PM
 #5327

1m users? I have a thread for that:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1628738.msg17270909#msg17270909
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January 26, 2017, 01:24:32 PM
 #5328


The points on that graph show the number of addresses with a balance, not the number of users. But fair enough, that could indicate more than 1m users.  Not many people use 15+ addresses. 
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January 26, 2017, 04:56:14 PM
 #5329

This coin has reached a kind of all time low, I feel like a new pump is coming soon. Anybody else thinking the same?
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January 26, 2017, 07:50:30 PM
 #5330

Holy mother.

2017 is off to a good start, I can't believe this!

Lord Kek has truly blessed spreadcoin!

I can't express how thankful I am for all the support that I am already getting.

What a joy.

Please read this todo-list (1-5) that I made back in dec 10th, it still pretty much represents what next steps I will take:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1045373.msg17139447#msg17139447

Thanks everybody!

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January 26, 2017, 08:02:20 PM
 #5331

Decentralisation is the key ingredient for crypto, and I actually agree that a patronage funding mode for experimental work is in some ways better than an investment based one. Both are still based on an exchange taking place, but with patronage both parties remain free to widen their definition of success to include much more than ROI, whereas with investments both parties are locked in to expectations of financial return only, so true creativity is stifled. You can clearly see this in art, modern music labels and film studios tend to be investment based, and results suffer, a guy investing 10M USD in a movie these days will go for a bog standard high budget super hero bl8ckbuster because it's almost certain to make a profit, but the end product is usually not great art that stretches the boundaries, whereas a good explanation for the quality of Renaissance art is the funding was heavily biased towards patronage. For crypto I think we're seeing the results of 2 years of the investment model at work, and there's been a load of crappy ico's launched that have the cutting edge qualities of Spiderman 5, or Iron Man 6, so while many might make a return, they're not likely to crack the big problems, like how to scale networks without waste using incentive structures that maintain true decentralisation.

Thank you, this is the most reasonable comment I have seen in this thread this whole week.

So far, from what I can see, the development done on SpreadWallet is comprised of two primary factors: UI/UX, and consolidating common services built on RPC wallet commands into one application.

Now, this is cool, but the wallet shows nothing that indicates any work on the protocol, blockchain, or network level itself. We basically have a fancy multi-wallet at this point. I'm not saying that is crap, and it DOES look super nice, but a lot of the discussion in the history of the coin has been about innovative ideas leveraging the blockchain, and systems built on top of it, to do something new/exciting/supportive of crypto as a whole.

Is there anything being developed that does not fall under the category of UI/UX and consolidating already-developed APIs into one spot? I mean, it's probably the coolest wallet in crypto if you get it released - but none of the big picture discussions ever really focused on such a thing, nor do they require it. It's already clear that you're going to do your own thing, you don't owe us anything etc - so I'm mostly just seeing if you'll indulge my inquiry - is there work being done on a deeper level, beyond UI/UX?

Yes I know there are constant debates and discussions about the big picture ideas, I'm asking about tangible development, not just walls of text theorizing. Is there any evidence to show you're not fully and completely focusing on just making a super cool multi-wallet?

I vote this comment the best this week, second place sitonmythrone Tongue
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January 26, 2017, 08:12:25 PM
 #5332

I'm skeptical of the idea, ...


Could you address this guy? He's practically asking the same question I asked about the wallet working in a live environment.
Stop hitting soft balls around   Roll Eyes



This cinogrin-guy sounds like the perfectly "groomed" and prepared sockpuppet.
All this special "knowledge" about coding and what was going on here in the past months...
not suspicious at all.  Grin

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January 26, 2017, 08:15:52 PM
 #5333

BTW, if some people have a problem understanding what makes a crypto a scam,
I suggest you watch this video here.

It features Tone Vays and Chris DeRose and should be mandatory viewing for all crypto users.  Grin

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1r482VFVsnc


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January 26, 2017, 08:20:31 PM
 #5334


I'm still working on this if you haven't noticed, just without PR-Investors breathing down my neck or writing the whitepapers for me.   Cool

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January 26, 2017, 09:20:25 PM
Last edit: January 26, 2017, 11:43:07 PM by rhinomonkey
 #5335

If I remember correctly cinogrin was actually an early miner of Spreadcoin and he lost access to his earlier account.

But he can speak for himself next time he's online.

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January 26, 2017, 11:47:53 PM
 #5336

Holy mother.

2017 is off to a good start, I can't believe this!

Lord Kek has truly blessed spreadcoin!

I can't express how thankful I am for all the support that I am already getting.

What a joy.

Please read this todo-list (1-5) that I made back in dec 10th, it still pretty much represents what next steps I will take:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1045373.msg17139447#msg17139447

Thanks everybody!

Thanks to you georgem.

Good job  Wink
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January 27, 2017, 09:12:50 AM
 #5337

Good summation, it lacks when he mentioned he would be working exclusively on spreadcoin full time...As an early adoper, it's beyond the point of frustration or believability. Georgem is taking a more holistic approach rather than building on anything and as a result the price has suffered and confidence has wavered to the point where delisting from the only exchange it's currently on remains a possibility. There are some great minds behind this project though, like coins101- a visionary in this space, who was instrumental in the early success of dash.

 It ultimately is a coin of low risk high reward potential. Let's look at its price history. Servicenodes in testnet before mr. Spread's departure .0003. A mere mention of georgem's implementation within reach .00018; Almost an order of magnitude from where we currently stand. Imagine where we will be once, 100 more soons from now, servicenodes are actually released to mainnet.

People involved in crypto are generally myopic. That's a dim game to play. I'd rather georgem not address any of this and keep doing what he's doing. I'll wait.

From my perspective, 10m people use Blockchain.info to host a Bitcoin wallet (or they have 10m wallets, whatever your specific point of view), which is a sign something is wrong when you consider there are about 5,500 full Bitcoin nodes.

This is, by its very definition, a market imbalance. Not in terms of technical fear of the network not being able to cope. While there is that. My point of view is that this is a f huge opportunity. It's not a technical imbalance its a market distortion waiting for a solution.

* People don't want to run full nodes. But it's the safest option.

* People do want to run SPV's, in particular through their mobile, but it's the least safe option.

Do you see what I see in that diametrically opposed position?

No?

There are about 1.5bn PC's, but we are approaching 2.5bn smart phones. While PC adoption will plateau, the smart phone will continue to grow towards 5bn users.

So my design for a decentralized (bloody American spell checker on BCT) servicenode network that will create an encrypted link between an SPV and a full node, and then have those full nodes on a super fast rely network, is smack bang in the right space.

In fixing the SPV security model, you fix the Bitcoin lack of full nodes security model. The two positions are no longer diametrically opposed, they are aligned. You've fixed the market distortion, in a decentralized way.

So, I'm waiting to see what will happen before releasing this whitepaper.

The whitepaper is done, I've checked for available technology, it's a great commercial opportunity and it looks like it can address a market distortion enough to generate a business model around it.

Which is why I say, one way or another it will be built.

But lets see what happens next.



This particular option doesn't need proof of node, because there is an element of payment and service provision involved which is a sybil resistant model.
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January 27, 2017, 05:51:43 PM
 #5338

Good summation, it lacks when he mentioned he would be working exclusively on spreadcoin full time...As an early adoper, it's beyond the point of frustration or believability. Georgem is taking a more holistic approach rather than building on anything and as a result the price has suffered and confidence has wavered to the point where delisting from the only exchange it's currently on remains a possibility. There are some great minds behind this project though, like coins101- a visionary in this space, who was instrumental in the early success of dash.

 It ultimately is a coin of low risk high reward potential. Let's look at its price history. Servicenodes in testnet before mr. Spread's departure .0003. A mere mention of georgem's implementation within reach .00018; Almost an order of magnitude from where we currently stand. Imagine where we will be once, 100 more soons from now, servicenodes are actually released to mainnet.

People involved in crypto are generally myopic. That's a dim game to play. I'd rather georgem not address any of this and keep doing what he's doing. I'll wait.

From my perspective, 10m people use Blockchain.info to host a Bitcoin wallet (or they have 10m wallets, whatever your specific point of view), which is a sign something is wrong when you consider there are about 5,500 full Bitcoin nodes.

This is, by its very definition, a market imbalance. Not in terms of technical fear of the network not being able to cope. While there is that. My point of view is that this is a f huge opportunity. It's not a technical imbalance its a market distortion waiting for a solution.

* People don't want to run full nodes. But it's the safest option.

* People do want to run SPV's, in particular through their mobile, but it's the least safe option.

Do you see what I see in that diametrically opposed position?

No?

There are about 1.5bn PC's, but we are approaching 2.5bn smart phones. While PC adoption will plateau, the smart phone will continue to grow towards 5bn users.

So my design for a decentralized (bloody American spell checker on BCT) servicenode network that will create an encrypted link between an SPV and a full node, and then have those full nodes on a super fast rely network, is smack bang in the right space.

In fixing the SPV security model, you fix the Bitcoin lack of full nodes security model. The two positions are no longer diametrically opposed, they are aligned. You've fixed the market distortion, in a decentralized way.

So, I'm waiting to see what will happen before releasing this whitepaper.

The whitepaper is done, I've checked for available technology, it's a great commercial opportunity and it looks like it can address a market distortion enough to generate a business model around it.

Which is why I say, one way or another it will be built.

But lets see what happens next.



This particular option doesn't need proof of node, because there is an element of payment and service provision involved which is a sybil resistant model.

I agree with you but didn't Georgem reject this model on the basis it isn't cryptographically secure? At least I think that is what he said before I quit the team last year...
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January 27, 2017, 07:12:03 PM
 #5339

...
I agree with you but didn't Georgem reject this model on the basis it isn't cryptographically secure? At least I think that is what he said before I quit the team last year...

I'm pretty sure I said, where and when, not if and how.

But I am adopting a wait and see for now approach.
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January 27, 2017, 08:49:01 PM
 #5340

...
I agree with you but didn't Georgem reject this model on the basis it isn't cryptographically secure? At least I think that is what he said before I quit the team last year...

I'm pretty sure I said, where and when, not if and how.

But I am adopting a wait and see for now approach.

You did say that. I was just pointing out it bears little relevance to spreadcoin now.

It's a cracking idea, or at least I think it is.

You're certainly more likely to be able to deliver it on a second tier rather than part of bitcoin core which is what the cryptographic approach proposes.
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