The function of religion ?

[mobodick]

Where are my fellow Satanists? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LaVeyan_Satanism

Religion sucks one way or another.

You may not know what Satanism is. Not a religion, but instead a self-described philosophical organization. It is comprised of atheists. www.churchofsatan.com/pages/_FAQ03.html if you're interested.

Yeah, and how stupid can you be to name your little club of self-indulgent atheists after a mythical god creature?

Stupidity is #1 on the list of the Nine Satanic Sins. So we strive to avoid and see through stupidity. We don't believe in any mythical creature called Satan. Satan is symbolic.

I never said you believe in satan, i said you named your club of self-indulging atheists after it.

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[fishface]

Where are my fellow Satanists? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LaVeyan_Satanism

Religion sucks one way or another.

You may not know what Satanism is. Not a religion, but instead a self-described philosophical organization. It is comprised of atheists. www.churchofsatan.com/pages/_FAQ03.html if you're interested.

Yeah, and how stupid can you be to name your little club of self-indulgent atheists after a mythical god creature?

Stupidity is #1 on the list of the Nine Satanic Sins. So we strive to avoid and see through stupidity. We don't believe in any mythical creature called Satan. Satan is symbolic.

I never said you believe in satan, i said you named your club of self-indulging atheists after it.

I didn't name it. But I did edit my post with further explanation.

[fishface]

"We create our gods, not the other way around. In a very real way, we construct them and define them—and they, in turn, guide and define us. We are a world of storytellers. If aliens really were studying our various cultures on this planet, they might be quite perplexed about our obsession with fiction. We read novels, we go to movies, we watch fictions on television, we’ve carved them on walls for centuries—even our history is filtered through dramatic storylines. Why? We use stories about our heroes, our gods, our demons, our successes, failures, dreams and nightmares in order to preserve what has happened, to communicate our common values, to work through our common fears, to ritualize, instruct and have fun. Humans shine when events become unconventional. That’s the basis for all good tales. What do you do when you’re the underdog, fighting for survival? What do you do when God is dead and there are no rules? What kind of character or honor or sense of justice do you really have when there’s no God to judge you, no threat of eternity in the fiery furnace? That’s when things get interesting. Step beyond the boundaries and see what you might find within yourself. Satanists want to cut through the bullshit, challenge themselves and others, and enjoy life. Read on; perhaps you’ll begin to see your own dark reflection through the words on your computer screen."

[mobodick]

Where are my fellow Satanists? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LaVeyan_Satanism

Religion sucks one way or another.

You may not know what Satanism is. Not a religion, but instead a self-described philosophical organization. It is comprised of atheists. www.churchofsatan.com/pages/_FAQ03.html if you're interested.

Yeah, and how stupid can you be to name your little club of self-indulgent atheists after a mythical god creature?

Stupidity is #1 on the list of the Nine Satanic Sins. So we strive to avoid and see through stupidity. We don't believe in any mythical creature called Satan. Satan is symbolic in a sense, and further...

"If you’re new to Satanism, or simply curious, perhaps a brief discussion of one of the most common questions might help you to better understand what this site is all about. Why call it Satanism?

Dr. LaVey has answered this question many times in his writings and in interviews but, apparently, it’s a tough concept for some people. It is usually accompanied by, “You know, everything you say makes a lot of sense. But that name, ‘Satan’, is a real turn-off for people. Why don’t you just call it ‘Humanism’ or something—you’d get a lot more followers.”

Of course, the first point is, we don’t need a lot of followers; we need more leaders in society in general and Satanism is a philosophy of leaders. That’s the glib answer. The more complete answer is that Satanists find more strength in images of defiance, fortitude against all odds and self-determination than we do in the image of the guy hanging on the Cross. We are sickened by the complacency, hypocrisy, prejudice, and self-righteousness that most conventional religions (including “Wicca” and “paganism” as they are currently defined) encourage in people. When my back is up against the wall, I’m not strengthened by Jesus’ supposed martyrdom, or by the idea of praying and being saved, or of mooning over some glorious afterlife (so I don’t have to take responsibility for this one). Satanists’ scorn for such drivel is in our hard-wiring, and we could no more “give our lives over to Christ” than we could cut off one of our own limbs. The word “Satan” is the first hurdle to understanding what we’re trying to get across. Question, challenge all things, especially what you’ve been taught about supposed enemies. Sort out the truth from convenient myths. Words are magical and potent—use them effectively."

A quote from Magistra Blanche Barton, Church of Satan

Aah, so it's a psychological framework for affirming your superiority!
Are you sure Satanism isn't an early work of (edit)Ayn Rand?

Don't get me wrong, i understand the point satanists try to make.
I just cannot escape the thought that the deep embedding of ritualism hints at trying to be the other side of the coin.
My view is that reality is not dualistic in this sense.

[fishface]

Where are my fellow Satanists? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LaVeyan_Satanism

Religion sucks one way or another.

You may not know what Satanism is. Not a religion, but instead a self-described philosophical organization. It is comprised of atheists. www.churchofsatan.com/pages/_FAQ03.html if you're interested.

Yeah, and how stupid can you be to name your little club of self-indulgent atheists after a mythical god creature?

Stupidity is #1 on the list of the Nine Satanic Sins. So we strive to avoid and see through stupidity. We don't believe in any mythical creature called Satan. Satan is symbolic in a sense, and further...

"If you’re new to Satanism, or simply curious, perhaps a brief discussion of one of the most common questions might help you to better understand what this site is all about. Why call it Satanism?

Dr. LaVey has answered this question many times in his writings and in interviews but, apparently, it’s a tough concept for some people. It is usually accompanied by, “You know, everything you say makes a lot of sense. But that name, ‘Satan’, is a real turn-off for people. Why don’t you just call it ‘Humanism’ or something—you’d get a lot more followers.”

Of course, the first point is, we don’t need a lot of followers; we need more leaders in society in general and Satanism is a philosophy of leaders. That’s the glib answer. The more complete answer is that Satanists find more strength in images of defiance, fortitude against all odds and self-determination than we do in the image of the guy hanging on the Cross. We are sickened by the complacency, hypocrisy, prejudice, and self-righteousness that most conventional religions (including “Wicca” and “paganism” as they are currently defined) encourage in people. When my back is up against the wall, I’m not strengthened by Jesus’ supposed martyrdom, or by the idea of praying and being saved, or of mooning over some glorious afterlife (so I don’t have to take responsibility for this one). Satanists’ scorn for such drivel is in our hard-wiring, and we could no more “give our lives over to Christ” than we could cut off one of our own limbs. The word “Satan” is the first hurdle to understanding what we’re trying to get across. Question, challenge all things, especially what you’ve been taught about supposed enemies. Sort out the truth from convenient myths. Words are magical and potent—use them effectively."

A quote from Magistra Blanche Barton, Church of Satan

Aah, so it's a psychological framework for affirming your superiority!
Are you sure Satanism isn't an early work of Ann Ryan?

Don't get me wrong, i understand the point satanists try to make.
I just cannot escape the thought that the deep embedding of ritualism hints at trying to be the other side of the coin.
My view is that reality is not dualistic in this sense.

Thanks for some discourse that isn't merely attacking/calling stupid. I don't see a "philosophy of leaders" as a framework for affirming my superiority. I don't wrap myself up enough in others to compare myself to them. To me, a philosophy of leaders is simply a short way of stating the idea that we strive to lead by trying new things and exploring our potential as opposed to following tradition and accepting what we are told about ourselves.

Ayn Rand's objectivism definitely had significant influence on LaVey and Satanic philosophy, but there are clear differences between objectivism and satanism. I'd enjoy discussing further, but I have things going on and will be back later tonight.

[dancupid]

Bit off topic, but I found an image of Anton LaVey doing his now infamous robot ventriloquist act

[yrtrnc]

Look, the way I see it,, we all have our individual opinions and thoughts. No matter how right we may think we are this does not mean we must alienate others, if we do we are only alienating ourselves. Whats important is that we listen to eachother and respect eachother, and that we have a healthy outlook on life that helps us emotionally and physically.

We are all part of a big family and we care for one another, I think this is one of the main reasons we get so upset. Because we think we are trying to help as we know better but the person opposite us doesnt change their opinions so we get upset because we think these opinions are bad.
Maybe they are not so bad, maybe we could also learn from these views and find a middle path. Science can help, spirituality can also help. Ultimately they serve the same cause and that's us. We are the ones who are important, us people, our big family. Believe in us, let this be your religion and let is serve the purpose of love. Open your hearts and minds to one another..

[bb113]

The Eleven Satanic Rules of the Earth

    Do not give opinions or advice unless you are asked.
    Do not tell your troubles to others unless you are sure they want to hear them.
    When in another's lair, show them respect or else do not go there.
    If a guest in your lair annoys you, treat them cruelly and without mercy.
    Do not make sexual advances unless you are given the mating signal.
    Do not take that which does not belong to you unless it is a burden to the other person and they cry out to be relieved.
    Acknowledge the power of magic if you have employed it successfully to obtain your desires. If you deny the power of magic after having called upon it with success, you will lose all you have obtained.
    Do not complain about anything to which you need not subject yourself.
    Do not harm little children.
    Do not kill non-human animals unless you are attacked or for your food.
    When walking in open territory, bother no one. If someone bothers you, ask them to stop. If they don’t stop, destroy them.

Most of them are pretty good. Number 3 has been most useful to me.

[ralree]

Acknowledge the power of magic if you have employed it successfully to obtain your desires. If you deny the power of magic after having called upon it with success, you will lose all you have obtained.

How is "acknowledging the power of magic" not religious?  If Satanism is composed of atheists, surely this rule is unnecessarily, as no atheist would believe in magic.  What supernatural force is this referring to?  Aliens?

[myrkul]

Acknowledge the power of magic if you have employed it successfully to obtain your desires. If you deny the power of magic after having called upon it with success, you will lose all you have obtained.

How is "acknowledging the power of magic" not religious?  If Satanism is composed of atheists, surely this rule is unnecessarily, as no atheist would believe in magic.  What supernatural force is this referring to?  Aliens?

Magic is not inherently religious, needs no deity to work (or not work), and you can even call certain scientifically sound events (like observation mucking with subatomic particles) "magical".

[bb113]

Acknowledge the power of magic if you have employed it successfully to obtain your desires. If you deny the power of magic after having called upon it with success, you will lose all you have obtained.

How is "acknowledging the power of magic" not religious?  If Satanism is composed of atheists, surely this rule is unnecessarily, as no atheist would believe in magic.  What supernatural force is this referring to?  Aliens?

Magic is not inherently religious, needs no deity to work (or not work), and you can even call certain scientifically sound events (like observation mucking with subatomic particles) "magical".

If it works, it works. Placebo effect is real, weird unintuitive stuff is real. The point is relying on evidence. That said I'm pretty sure that rule was added in during some democratic process.

[Vanderbleek]

Acknowledge the power of magic if you have employed it successfully to obtain your desires. If you deny the power of magic after having called upon it with success, you will lose all you have obtained.

How is "acknowledging the power of magic" not religious?  If Satanism is composed of atheists, surely this rule is unnecessarily, as no atheist would believe in magic.  What supernatural force is this referring to?  Aliens?

Magic is not inherently religious, needs no deity to work (or not work), and you can even call certain scientifically sound events (like observation mucking with subatomic particles) "magical".

What's magical about the fact that bombarding small particles with energy (photons) to see them changes their trajectory?

[myrkul]

Acknowledge the power of magic if you have employed it successfully to obtain your desires. If you deny the power of magic after having called upon it with success, you will lose all you have obtained.

How is "acknowledging the power of magic" not religious?  If Satanism is composed of atheists, surely this rule is unnecessarily, as no atheist would believe in magic.  What supernatural force is this referring to?  Aliens?

Magic is not inherently religious, needs no deity to work (or not work), and you can even call certain scientifically sound events (like observation mucking with subatomic particles) "magical".

What's magical about the fact that bombarding small particles with energy (photons) to see them changes their trajectory?

I was referring more to the double-slit experiment and the fact that light behaves as a wave, even at a single photon at a time, and produces an interference pattern on a screen behind the two slits unless there are photon detectors by the slits. It's just weird. The other quantum effects, like entanglement, and gods know how many other things I can't think of right now are even more "spooky." The idea that there might be a particle which directly reacts to human will is not too far-fetched, when compared to the rest of the proven things subatomic particles do. And that most definitely would be "magic".

And let's not forget Clarke's third law.

Of course, I digress. The point is that "magic" and "deity" are separate concepts, and that atheists are not always rational.

[Atlas]

Acknowledge the power of magic if you have employed it successfully to obtain your desires. If you deny the power of magic after having called upon it with success, you will lose all you have obtained.

How is "acknowledging the power of magic" not religious?  If Satanism is composed of atheists, surely this rule is unnecessarily, as no atheist would believe in magic.  What supernatural force is this referring to?  Aliens?

Magic is not inherently religious, needs no deity to work (or not work), and you can even call certain scientifically sound events (like observation mucking with subatomic particles) "magical".

What's magical about the fact that bombarding small particles with energy (photons) to see them changes their trajectory?

I was referring more to the double-slit experiment and the fact that light behaves as a wave, even at a single photon at a time, and produces an interference pattern on a screen behind the two slits unless there are photon detectors by the slits. It's just weird. The other quantum effects, like entanglement, and gods know how many other things I can't think of right now are even more "spooky." The idea that there might be a particle which directly reacts to human will is not too far-fetched, when compared to the rest of the proven things subatomic particles do. And that most definitely would be "magic".

And let's not forget Clarke's third law.

Of course, I digress. The point is that "magic" and "deity" are separate concepts, and that atheists are not always rational.

Stuff like this makes me not take perception of reality at face value. Reality is no longer rigid.

[bb113]

You also may just be stuck in a local maximum (of probability of being right), but have not explored the entire space of possibilities. Other people with different starting points and different paths may be stuck in their own local maxima, the only way to judge which is "right" is if all brains agree (converge) on the same answer, which may take infinite time (so is impossible for mortals). Consciousness trying to understand the universe is just like a huge markov chain monte carlo experiment.

That's the basis of spirituality, finding your own path to find the same truth.  In no way is it impossible for our species to become like-minded, time is an illusory boundary.  And consciousness grasps itself fine, it's the ego that's in need of lessons.

Good point, individuals are mortal, while species are not. To keep my mcmc analogy going, each species is it's own chain, each individual/brain/consciousness/ego is a unique genetic (in the computer science and biological sense) algorithm that samples from the space of possibilities. This is how I look at it:



The challenge here was to fit a curve with 3 parameters to some data, you can see that the chains all converged quickly onto one point, but failed to explore the entire set of possibilities (avoided areas of low probability, although the best answer may have been found surrounded by unlikely answers). The more challenging task of understanding the universe, existence, etc has many more dimensions, and there are many more chains exploring this space some branching off others at certain points, and they are not all independent of each other.

Your brain probably agrees with the machine:

I don't agree on you injecting things like 'understanding the universe' into this.
I don't see any sign of evolution striving for that goal.
It is more like a random walk in a space with attractors. Some things just happen to work better than others in this universe and so can be selected for. But possibility space is full of niches and so a genepool can inhabit such a niche and be successfull. The problem is that the genome then becomes more specific and cannot easily escape its current direction of development. That makes it seem as if that strain of genes it directed towards a goal. But that is just an illusion.
What i try to say is that there is no overall direction evolution takes. It just tests the environment and adapts to it. There is no overarching goal of understanding the universe. That is purely a human preoccupation.

I just saw this and agree completely. However perhaps overall the different starting points of organisms throughout our galaxy roughly approximate this strategy. The likelihood of success or decision rule is gene/information propagation. Human-like consciousness is just one possible route. Perhaps bacteria have it right.

[mobodick]

Acknowledge the power of magic if you have employed it successfully to obtain your desires. If you deny the power of magic after having called upon it with success, you will lose all you have obtained.

How is "acknowledging the power of magic" not religious?  If Satanism is composed of atheists, surely this rule is unnecessarily, as no atheist would believe in magic.  What supernatural force is this referring to?  Aliens?

Magic is not inherently religious, needs no deity to work (or not work), and you can even call certain scientifically sound events (like observation mucking with subatomic particles) "magical".

What's magical about the fact that bombarding small particles with energy (photons) to see them changes their trajectory?

I was referring more to the double-slit experiment and the fact that light behaves as a wave, even at a single photon at a time, and produces an interference pattern on a screen behind the two slits unless there are photon detectors by the slits. It's just weird. The other quantum effects, like entanglement, and gods know how many other things I can't think of right now are even more "spooky." The idea that there might be a particle which directly reacts to human will is not too far-fetched, when compared to the rest of the proven things subatomic particles do. And that most definitely would be "magic".

And let's not forget Clarke's third law.

Of course, I digress. The point is that "magic" and "deity" are separate concepts, and that atheists are not always rational.

No, it's still pretty far fetched.
Anything we humans experience is at an aggregate level of roughly 10^38 atoms (and that's just in your body).
There is no way you can somehow steer the 'magic' of one atom amongst 100000000000000000000000000000000000000 other atoms.

Remember also that the scale of atoms is somewhere round 10^-17 or so.
We realy have nothing to do with quantum stuff at our scale.

[dank]

Except, we do create our reality in our mind.

[mobodick]

Except, we do create our reality in our mind.

No, what you experience of reality is produced by your brain. But fantasy is also produced by your brain.
Take enough drugs and you'll start confusing that.

[dank]

Reality is fantasy.

[mobodick]

Reality is fantasy.

Yes, that is exactly the kind of confusion i was talking about.