[Announcement] Avalon ASIC Development Status [Batch #1]

[creativex]

Actually I think the darkest days are in the rear view for bASIC, but time will tell. Recent posts have been far more encouraging and detailed.

[loshia]

BitSyncom,

Just let it go..There is no sense to loose your time for it...just personal opinion.  I do like tom very much indeed but i am wondering why he avoids simple yes/no answer if he had the chips - asked over and over from his own customers in his own forum (as long people like him so much of his openness and frankness)? The second thing i just can not understand as long as he was about to deliver week ago (if the chips were ok), why he is getting the pcb schematics from his engineers yesterday (famous powers of two  - bla bla - it was just a trick to reduce refunds, because by that time he knew that he will not deliver)? If i were him and i was waiting for the chips i wold have schematics revised many times + full populated PCB mounts ago in hands of software developers. It seems that his PCB (Asic board) is not produced yet. Let us say that he had the asics chips OK. How can he promise that he will deliver a couple of days after, when it is obvious that the board did not enter factory yet? What about the software for mining it needs at least some time to be developed also? Or this is just me thinking like that?  What about testing hardware itself (it needs at least a couple of days) and fixing hardware bugs if any? Adding all even chips were ok a week ago makes his delivery in as he stated 15 of January - just my math ..In general tom is not telling the whole truth - personal opinion...That is all

[creativex]

..In general tom is not telling the whole truth - personal opinion...That is all

Clearly, and he's lost some customers because of it. At least two of the three major developers of ASIC products for sale in the near future have withheld information at best and lied at worst. Interesting times ahead.

Avalon has been the only manufacturer to remain above the fray and that's in jeopardy as mud slinging ramps up and their own release date approaches. 

[abeaulieu]

..In general tom is not telling the whole truth - personal opinion...That is all

Clearly, and he's lost some customers because of it. At least two of the three major developers of ASIC products for sale in the near future have withheld information at best and lied at worst. Interesting times ahead.

Avalon has been the only manufacturer to remain above the fray and that's in jeopardy as mud slinging ramps up and their own release date approaches. 

Avalon has participated in the mudslinging though.

[cedivad]

If only I had paid my order with Avalon...

[Mikej0h]

As paid customer of Avalon I was very content BitSyncom/Avalon was not mixing in the word-fight with BFL and bASIC.
However with the latest "update" a turn was made, and I've been honest a bit disappointed about it.

Don't get me wrong, I'm damn happy everything is still on schedule and was happy to see the documents of TSMC.
And I'm very optimistic about the Avalon ASIC, and can't wait to start mining on it.

I do would love if the Avalon-team just for 110% focusses on the development of their product as I know it will be fantastic, and not wastes any time on their opponents.

[loshia]

I do would love if the Avalon-team just for 110% focusses on the development of their product as I know it will be fantastic, and not wastes any time on their opponents.

+1

I'd love to if you can respond to this message BitSyncom.

-1
No need for that as long this will continue the "word-fight" right? No one needs it...

[Mikej0h]

I'd love to if you can respond to this message BitSyncom.

-1
No need for that as long this will continue the "word-fight" right? No one needs it...

Agreed & changed, I'm always a "confirm you read this" guy, so thats why I wrote that...
No flaming intended or what so ever.

[creativex]

..In general tom is not telling the whole truth - personal opinion...That is all

Clearly, and he's lost some customers because of it. At least two of the three major developers of ASIC products for sale in the near future have withheld information at best and lied at worst. Interesting times ahead.

Avalon has been the only manufacturer to remain above the fray and that's in jeopardy as mud slinging ramps up and their own release date approaches. 

Avalon has participated in the mudslinging though.

What I'm sayin'.

[fcmatt]

If only I had paid my order with Avalon...

I am in the same boat. But lets face it. Most of us were not the first to mine with gpu and that worked out for all involved last year who
got involved later on.

[PuertoLibre]

Doesn't Avalon have their own forum site, like the other vendors?  You might have better luck there.

I can't remember the site offhand...

Found it:

http://forum.bitsyn.com/

Not much activity tho.

Still as I mentioned before, currently doing website overhaul, but understandably with the recent developments ( ASICs aside ), the mere website has been put into the back burner, but I am drafting up news letters for people with the next round of hardware updates, in addition with the recent paperwork update I gave out.

Are the newsletters written up?

[kaerf]

OKAY...When I ordered from Avalon in October, I didn't think there was a chance in hell that Avalon would come out before BFL and bASIC. I now fully expect Avalon to be the first out the gate. Good for you guys.

Here's my take on the big 3.

BFL can talk a good game, but IMO their engineering team (Nasser) probably isn't experienced enough in developing ASICs. I believe they've had several set backs due to errors in design. I think the engineering team (Nasser) is stringing Josh along and not being fully truthful to Josh. Josh is in the unfortunate position of being teamed with people that have a habit of dropping the ball... These type of people like to set expectations high, but rarely deliver on time nor will they deliver a quality product (it will be buggy or not live up to expectations).

Tom seems to mean well, but is either taking on too much by himself or is poorly organized. I do not know which it is. If it's the former, then hiring a competent technical lead/manager will make his life a whole lot easier, though more expensive. Since he doesn't have the technical experience himself to make the best decisions about his products, it's not totally unexpected that he chose his first (outsourced) team poorly. The sooner he hires a technical lead to validate the progress of his engineering team, the sooner he can be assured that he is on the right track. Without the technical validation, he is taking on a big risk for a second time...that would not be acceptable. Fortunately, it looks like Tom is about to hire a new technical lead (assuming his new hire has the appropriate experience).

IMO, Avalon is the team with the true engineers that do things the way engineers do things. That is - they plan, they model, they set appropriate (conservative) approximations, and do not say/report something unless they are very confident in those facts. This is the way competent engineers work. Avalon's engineering team is comprised of academics who pride themselves on technical correctness. This team appears to be the best organized and most technically competent of the 3.

I have orders with all 3 companies, so I'd like to think I'm not really biased against any of them, but with BFL's lates announcement, it's clear their engineering team is a joke (no, it's not entirely due to the chip plant). Unfortunately, my smallest order is with Avalon...due to timing and cost.


So all that said...going forward, I'll still go with the company that offers the best bang for the buck. IF all 3 companies eventually release real (reliable) products, I'll base most of my purchasing decision based on performance, initial price and long term power usage/ROI.

[PuertoLibre]

Posted recently on the BFL forums:

> When pressed for a reason why, I have been told that because this is a very dense, hand routed design they are afraid of making a mistake and have required extra checking and sign offs which has slowed down the whole process considerably. They don't want to be on the hook financially for having to redo the whole order. It sounds reasonable to me and I have no reason to doubt this

It sounds reasonable to me, but I implore you to not allow these guys to just coast until the next deadline. You need to

1) get a full project plan, including all of the checking and sign offs that need to occur
2) follow up on the status of those items in that project plan

On November 26th, you said "While I can't give a hard date and say "absolutely" this is the date, it looks like the week of the 11th, but that's the "fuzzy" date I have at the moment and I'm waiting on confirmation on a not-fuzzy date from the foundry right now." This appears to be an 11th hour change to that early commitment and you need to be a lot more aggressive with them now on meeting the deadline. Even though that was fuzzy, they still are missing that date by a wide margin. As such you really do not have any reason to trust there new date.

I am telling you now that the future of your entire company probably rests on making this date. While upgrade customers are a little locked in at this time, if Avalon ships, then you can expect a large number of cancellations to follow.

@ Avalon, how that update going? Isn't it your time to shine?

[BitSyncom]

@ Avalon, how that update going? Isn't it your time to shine?

Update is expected to release on Thursday, or two days from now. We are currently waiting for this round of updates from TSMC for this week which comes tomorrow.

[ldrgn]

I have orders with all 3 companies, so I'd like to think I'm not really biased against any of them, but with BFL's lates announcement, it's clear their engineering team is a joke (no, it's not entirely due to the chip plant). Unfortunately, my smallest order is with Avalon...due to timing and cost.

In addition to everything kaerf's mentioned I think it's worth bringing up that Avalon are superior strategists.  Anyone remember when BFL improved their numbers days after the competition bumped theirs?  BFL fell hook, line and sinker for the release date and stats games from their competition.  Avalon appears to have taken The Art of War to heart.

[bce]

I have orders with all 3 companies, so I'd like to think I'm not really biased against any of them, but with BFL's lates announcement, it's clear their engineering team is a joke (no, it's not entirely due to the chip plant). Unfortunately, my smallest order is with Avalon...due to timing and cost.

In addition to everything kaerf's mentioned I think it's worth bringing up that Avalon are superior strategists.  Anyone remember when BFL improved their numbers days after the competition bumped theirs?  BFL fell hook, line and sinker for the release date and stats games from their competition.  Avalon appears to have taken The Art of War to heart.

I would rather have had my pre-orders running at 30GH/s shipping in October than this.  I only hope that BFL hasn't held back on releasing something that could have run at a lower clock, in order to match the promised specs. Something working is better than something perfect, when time is of the essence.

[PuertoLibre]

I have orders with all 3 companies, so I'd like to think I'm not really biased against any of them, but with BFL's lates announcement, it's clear their engineering team is a joke (no, it's not entirely due to the chip plant). Unfortunately, my smallest order is with Avalon...due to timing and cost.

In addition to everything kaerf's mentioned I think it's worth bringing up that Avalon are superior strategists.  Anyone remember when BFL improved their numbers days after the competition bumped theirs?  BFL fell hook, line and sinker for the release date and stats games from their competition.  Avalon appears to have taken The Art of War to heart.

I would rather have had my pre-orders running at 30GH/s shipping in October than this.  I only hope that BFL hasn't held back on releasing something that could have run at a lower clock, in order to match the promised specs. Something working is better than something perfect, when time is of the essence.

Thats exactly what I think happened.

They kept trying to compete. Kept raising the bar, kept improving the design. Hell, they are still doing it right now.

[bitboyben]

I have orders with all 3 companies, so I'd like to think I'm not really biased against any of them, but with BFL's lates announcement, it's clear their engineering team is a joke (no, it's not entirely due to the chip plant). Unfortunately, my smallest order is with Avalon...due to timing and cost.

In addition to everything kaerf's mentioned I think it's worth bringing up that Avalon are superior strategists.  Anyone remember when BFL improved their numbers days after the competition bumped theirs?  BFL fell hook, line and sinker for the release date and stats games from their competition.  Avalon appears to have taken The Art of War to heart.

I would rather have had my pre-orders running at 30GH/s shipping in October than this.  I only hope that BFL hasn't held back on releasing something that could have run at a lower clock, in order to match the promised specs. Something working is better than something perfect, when time is of the essence.

Thats exactly what I think happened.

They kept trying to compete. Kept raising the bar, kept improving the design. Hell, they are still doing it right now.

Any chance Avalon's subsequent batches will move to smaller node and reduce power use? I think they could do well if they are first to market and follow up with lower power consumption.

[michaelmclees]

I would rather have had my pre-orders running at 30GH/s shipping in October than this.  I only hope that BFL hasn't held back on releasing something that could have run at a lower clock, in order to match the promised specs. Something working is better than something perfect, when time is of the essence.

Everyone was trying to win the hash race instead of trying to win the time race.  I keep saying it, but no one listens.  The winner of the time race, unless 2 or more manufacturers ship at about the same time, win ALL the marbles.  If BFL could have delivered a mere 15GH at $700, but back in October, they'd be so flooded with pre-orders right now the other folks wouldn't have a chance to catch up.  And while they try, BFL would be jumping ahead by doing nothing more than stacking ASIC's on ASIC's for diminishing costs, leaving Tom and Avalon in their wake.

[PuertoLibre]

Update

There are several news:

1. The process of our rest layers are significantly faster, we are now in QC and expecting to have the wafer arrived at our packaging service next week. Then the slicing, packaging, and testing will start immediately.

2. The shares are under processing. Shareholders (determined per e-mail address) offering different addresses to GLBSE and to us will receive a confirmation mail asking which to use or whether changing to a newer one. And we also hope to identify the shareholders who claim both different e-mail addresses and different addresses as many as possible. The principle would basically be:
  1) If the shareholder has both claimed to GLBSE and to us, we will use the share number provided from GLBSE.
  2) If during analysis, the shareholder hasn't claimed to GLBSE but claimed to us, we will keep a separate list and see if it should be merged.
  3) If the shareholder hasn't claimed to us but claimed to GLBSE, we will of course use the GLBSE data.

Only important and relevant parts are:

1) When those chips are ready, is it guaranteed they actually work or will there be a random testing?

2) Will this happen before or after the shipping to ASICMINER team?

3) How many chips (%) to you think will be lemons?

Do not get too exited about the rest

1) There will be QC guaranteeing offering basic qualification, but the testing(functional, electronic, thermo) will be first done by us. After that, part of the testing (functional) will be done by the same company that does packaging for us.

2) After the shipping.

3) They would consider a 2/3 yield rate a non-failed one. However in most circumstances the rates are much higher than this bottom line. Made-in-China of course are connected with the impression of lower quality, but calculating with a whole project should put the overall cost into consideration. TSMC has higher threshold for newcomer clients and is less affordable.

As far as I remember, friedcat considered building a proprietary ASICMINER platform for listing and trading shares. As listing on all the alternitve centralized exchanges with their ponzis comes with risk, I think a proprietary platform is the best solution. We don't even know the exact reasons why glbse went down! Do you really want to ride the same horse again?

A proprietary exchange sounds great.

I think it's going to be important to get shares listed and actively available to trade before anything is produced by the company.

Right now it's in a state of limbo and no shareholders have any proof of ownership at all. This will change once it's listed somewhere. I think it's important to fully establish share ownership prior to the production of any ASIC devices / mining activity.

Yes. And we are working towards it. First we need to sort the actual data out from what we have now. We have a close partner working on a new platform that is considerably safer than GLBSE due to its more secure structure. And of course existing platforms like btc.co are also sound options. It is also optional for each shareholder to join the platform or to lock the shares in with us.

Link: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=99497.msg1394701#msg1394701