[ANN][DCR] Decred - Community Governance | Bitcoin Devs | Lightning Network

[anders lokka]

Decred looks very promising

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[RawCrypto]

Gleb, I need to photoshop you an award that says World Record Holding Inspector Gadget Of The Interwebz

I'll settle for the Pakled We-Look-For-Things Mother Ship.

Wow, Gleb! I second this. You have dumped a ton of information here. I just woke up to all of this, and am trying to catch up on all the activity.

I want to give you my perspective on this as a community member, an individual working on the project, and as a matter of public record. I've been involved in the project since 2013 when I got to know tacotime. It was purely theoretical at that point - his work on hybridising PoW/PoS. There was an obvious desire to turn this into something practical, but things were absolutely crazy. Tons of ICOs everywhere. We considered at that point to do something similar - before things even got that crazy - but when lots of projects started taking people's money without deliverables, we got really concerned about the ethics of the matter, since there was always a possibility the project could fail and we'd let all those people down. This was especially worrisome as tacotime would be the only dev. We decided against this and would rather not have his work come to fruition than take the risk to mess people up like that.

So in late 2013 I learned about c0 (Conformal Systems at the time) and got to know Jacob through their open-source work. Obviously btcsuite represented, even at that time, a monumental contribution to Bitcoin development given all the devs employed to work on it. Bear in mind not all btcsuite devs (btcd and btcwallet primarily at the time) were employed, and we should all know these other people for their work and contributions to the ecosystem. Having said that, btcsuite is primarily the funded open-source contribution of c0. You can look at their Github account for that.

I wanted to find a way to bring the talent and effort I saw in their Bitcoin development and contributions to alternative cryptocurrencies - because why not? That's where we can try new things and experiment with new ideas. If you forget about the negative connotations some people hold against "alts", you can bring the same quality and progress seen in packages likes those in btcsuite elsewhere. That was my motivation in approaching c0 on behalf of myself as an individual and tacotime. It turned out c0 shared a lot of our philosophies of collaborative governance and pushing for alternative systems - not at the expense of Bitcoin, but as an extension of technology. It's healthy for the overall ecosystem, and we'll fight for this.

So then development began in early 2014 and here we are. The project didn't take anyone's money and it never will. The project isn't even ours - "we" are custodians trying to boost it so it can become collaborative. If we screw up, someone should call us out and take that position from us. That is healthy and proper governance. I want to get out of the mindset that it's "our" project. It's your project. As soon as it's public after testing, you can come and work on the code and become respected and established in the community based on your merit, not based on anything else. To me that's a fair system - none of us are anything else than people interested in this technology. We fill our positions on that basis - we get done what needs doing to get it up and running. Yeah, sure, we've put years of effort into it - but that's that, we do it as individuals because we love it. Anyone can come work on this. That's the system the project wants, and we'll all stand by that personally too. We'll also defend that philosophy as I am trying to do for you now.

(I'm going to split my response to you so I don't write essays in one post, so give me a sec so I can write it - I'm doing this in real-time and there's a lot to address here!)

Everyone should read this post for sure.

[sambiohazard]

I have Nvidia gtx 970 , gpu miner for Nvidia is released ? .

No miner released yet. The miner is a fork of an older version of cgminer with a rewritten kernel. It's been built for both AMD and NVIDIA cards, but it's likely that an optimized miner for NVIDIA cards will take a little finesse and a fork of ccminer.

Just to inform the community & dev team, sp_, the developer of ccminer sp-mod, claims that his current public release can do following numbers on 14 round blake-256 by using switch -a blake

Please contact him, he can further optimize this if a bounty is available. Also if anyone want to donate for his public release you are welcome to do so. Just goto his thread on the forum

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=826901.new#new

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=826901.msg13396843#msg13396843

@sp_ can you please post numbers for 14 round blake so ican post them in decred thread. thanks

gtx 980ti 2,4GHASH
gtx 980 1,8GHASH
gtx 970 1,52GHASH
gtx 960 0.98MHASH
gtx 750ti  0.53MHASH

[sambiohazard]

Happy New Year to all of you & I hope you will evolve to be a better human being in this new year.

Regards

Sam

[.m.]

I am interested, I can help with ARM, Docker and Golang and I can give a hand with fiat exchange with my bank account with 30 currencies.

[decred]

I'll preface this post: I am genuinely interested in this coin and what it can offer and like most of the ideas being proposed. I am in the IRC channel and intend to be active in it. I am not here to FUD or bash this coin. But...

I have a concern that the developers are actually able to take a MUCH larger amount than the 10% subsidy just by staking their premine coins. Remember that 30% of all minted coins are given as PoS rewards.

On day 1 the developers will have 4% of all coins, but actually 50% of all coins in existence. If they stake these, then they will get 50% of the 30% proof of stake coins, a further 15% of ALL minted coins. This percentage will taper off over time as their % of all minted coins becomes smaller, but the numbers are still scary...

Thank you for bringing this up on IRC, it's critically important to understand how the subsidy system works and where the funds are going. The base reasoning is correct, but the inferences require detailed explanation inline below. The calculations referenced in this explanation are contained in a spreadsheet, linked here.

• The premine will split 8% equally between two groups: (A) c0/devs and (B) the airdrop participants. This means that 50% of all the decred in existence at launch will be owned by c0/devs. The other 50% will be owned by the larger community.
• At the time of launch, the development organization (dev org) will have 0 coins. As blocks are mined on mainnet, the dev org will begin to receive its 10% subsidy from each block.
• Since approximately 3.02M coins will come from block subsidies, i.e. not premine, this means the dev org will collect 302K coins. The dev org will fund ongoing work, so it is expected to spend most of the coins it receives and not accumulate large amounts of coins. The average amount of stake held by the dev org should be relatively low as a function of the org not carrying a large balance.
• Starting with 50% of the coins at launch and 4% of the total does not entitle c0/devs to 15% of all minted coins. The reason is that 60% of the subsidy goes to PoW miners, which c0/devs have no overlap with. The plan is to have a few GPUs mining Decred after launch, but 60% of all the coins end up with PoW miners. When these coins are held by PoW miners, or whoever they sell it to, they can be used to mine PoS themselves. If coins are voted in proportion ('in proportion' explained below) to the amount held, the 4% premine turns into 7.32% of the total at the end of year 5, which is assuming none of the premine coins are spent. This means that c0/devs have 4% turning into 7.32% in 5 years, not 4% turning into 19%.

After 1 year, it is estimated that 4.7m coins will have been freshly minted, which is approximately 22% of the 21m coins. If the developers did not sell their premine coins, they would still hold their 4%, PLUS 2.2% for their developer subsidy (10% of the 22% freshly minted), PLUS whatever they have earned from staking for 12 months (roughly another 10% of all coins minted in the first year / 2.2% total, as they will be taking 15% of PoS coins on day 1 and around 6-7% of PoS coins after 1 year). So after 1 year the devs would have 4% + 2.2% + ~2.2% = 8.4% of all coins (~1.764m) which is a staggering 27.6% of all coins minted to date by then (1.764m out of 4.7m + 1.68m premine).

This also means that at the start of year 2 they could still be getting 8.3% of all newly minted coins through staking (27.6% of the 30% PoS) on top of the 10% dev subsidy.

I can understand the concept behind the 10% developer subsidy AND the premine (though I have a question mark over whether they need both), but I am seriously concerned that after 1 year the developers could still be raking > 18% of all new coins if they just sit and stake their initial premine.

• Per above, the concerns about the dev org mining lots of stake are addressed. The plan is that most of these coins will be paid to a diverse group of developers in the form of contracts who complete deliverables for the project on an ongoing basis.
• There are two "bounding" scenarios to consider: (1) where everyone mines PoS and (2) where nobody mines PoS besides c0/devs. The spreadsheet linked to in this post contains the projection for the "everyone mines" scenario. In that case, the 4% premine, if entirely unspent, grows to approximately 5.38% after year 1, 6.16% after year 2, and 6.67% after year 3. The percentage of total coins held by the 4% drops from 50% at launch to 24.4% after year 1, 18.0% after year 2, and 15.1% after year 3. The "nobody mines" scenario is a failure mode of Decred and is unlikely to happen.
• The hope is that a large number of the coins are used to mine PoS since you not only want users to share in the gains from PoS mining, a strong participation in PoS is needed to secure the network.
• In the event that there is a low participation rate in PoS mining, the plan is to throttle c0/devs' PoS mining so that it does not hoover up all the coins. The goal with PoS is not to hoard the coins, but to create a strong incentive structure for users to participate in securing the network with their voting. c0/devs will not mine more PoS than projected in the "everyone mines" scenario, as it would go against the spirit of the project.

Am I missing something in all of this?

Could there be a mechanism to prevent the developers from staking their premine coins, until they are sold on or until much later(year 3 or more) when their % of minted coins to date becomes much less?

The threat you describe, "How do we moderate the amount of PoS mining power for our 4% premine?", was also discussed prior to your bringing it up. The plan was to start mining PoS at a moderate pace so that people besides the 4% premine can get stake tickets without too much effort. After you brought this up, the other possible options were discussed that have been mentioned by you and others in the community.

The complexity of the constraint for what would be considered good behavior on c0/devs' part makes implementing such a constraint difficult. The belief is that the proper constraint would be "c0/devs can mine some PoS, but not too much PoS, and no pump and dumps" or similar. Other projects have CLTV'ed coins to make them unusable until a certain block number, but this would mean c0/devs cannot use these coins to secure the network by mining PoS. A notable distinction here is that Decred never took external funding for the bringup work, and, as such, has no pre-existing social contract with the userbase that would merit a promise to behave a certain way. Although, it must be said that inappropriate behaviour by c0/devs removes any prospect of sustainable development, which goes against c0/devs' history of development over the years. This is because there is strong incentive to reproduce this level of activity for Decred as one of the development stakeholders in the ecosystem. The reasoning for airdropping 50% of the premine was based on the logic that Decred will be most vulnerable at mainnet launch and therefore require a steward to ensure it is not essentially dead-on-arrival. Airdropping more than 50% of the premine was considered, but doing so would be a risk to the security of the chain since bad actors could scoop up a large percentage of the initial coins and wreak havoc with PoS mining. A 50% airdrop in the premine was the largest safe size for the airdrop that could be determined, and it can be viewed as a set of training wheels that are taken off as time passes after launch.

This is presented as an "intention of stewardship" and will be judged against deliverables, instead of taking people's money and making lots of potentially-empty promises. There's no claim it's a perfect system, it's an alternative model that will explore new areas in both technology and governance, but hopefully this post sheds light on the stewardship process and issues raised.

[indiemax]

Probing questions and detailed answers

looks very promising, keep the questions coming and the community will gain confidence that the Devs mean well

best wishes and a happy New Year to all 

[JPred]

This is presented as an "intention of stewardship" and will be judged against deliverables, instead of taking people's money and making lots of potentially-empty promises. There's no claim it's a perfect system, it's an alternative model that will explore new areas in both technology and governance, but hopefully this post sheds light on the stewardship process and issues raised.

Looking at Group Contribution Timeline in OP, let me mention that 'intention of stewardship' has started a considerable time ago and weighs heavily already IMO. > GO

[Justicemaxx]

Happy new year friends! Thanks to everyone who carefully answers the questions of the users in this thread, that's great. At present the concern is only the distribution of coins, many believe that the developers take too much at the start of the coins and every block mined as well. I have some thoughts on the matter. If the developers are diligent, it can help keep course coins without many mining rigs. I think that the developers are primarily interested in increasing the value of the coin, because of their desire to receive funding from each block are in general justified. However, if the price of the coin in the future will be very high, say 10+ dollars, or even higher, then 10% of each block seem an incredibly large sum on an annual basis. But again, the developers indicated that all the important questions about the development of coins boudot be decided by the community of coin holders, I hope it also applies to the distribution of shares in blocks.

[Grumlin]

the newest sign for Sr. member and above

DECRED

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for Full member

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[P-Funk]

Thanks for answering questions and concerns in detail.

[Hyperjacked]

Very interesting...

I just signed up for the airdrop!

See some old faces that I trust...

Cheers!

[Grumlin]

Very interesting...

I just signed up for the airdrop!

See some old faces that I trust...

Cheers!

If you want to increase the chances of airdrop, you can sign in signature campaign;)


If you enter the signature campaign, pm to me, I will add you to the list below (it's not airdrop list)

[Gleb Gamow]

Cointelegraph article "Decred: An Innovative Cryptocurrency or a Well Arranged Scam?": http://cointelegraph.com/news/115972/decred-an-innovative-cryptocurrency-or-a-well-arranged-scam

Saw that earlier. Pretty saddened by the fact that the article is generally positive but all the quotes are quite hateful. ETH, NXT, and BitNation (Swarm too) with so much fire from out of nowhere. Very surprising since Decred isn't taking any money from anyone, but all those projects did before code was even written - and yet Decred is the scam. Really don't want to be a dick about it, but that was quite harsh, especially without talking to anyone involved in the project or the community forming here for example.

Strangely enough, I was able to read through the negs, giving the quasi-PR some balance, couple with you folks further in the limelight to address more concerns from us "monumental assholes".

Since I've yet to read what Decred's main utility is (if there is one), may I offer up a suggestion?: Entities except Decred when they are offering a 30% or more off sale on their products or services, or as a sole means to enjoy said discounts. Whether the idea flies or not, I'm strongly toying with accepting Decred for my forthcoming project where patrons paying with Ď will enjoy an immediate 30% discount on their purchases (predicated on I'm able to easily convert to other currencies if choose to do so, perhaps publicly displaying that at least X% (15%?) is held to show support).

[Justicemaxx]

Strangely enough, I was able to read through the negs, giving the quasi-PR some balance, couple with you folks further in the limelight to address more concerns from us "monumental assholes".

Since I've yet to read what Decred's main utility is (if there is one), may I offer up a suggestion?: Entities except Decred when they are offering a 30% or more off sale on their products or services, or as a sole means to enjoy said discounts. Whether the idea flies or not, I'm strongly toying with accepting Decred for my forthcoming project where patrons paying with Ď will enjoy an immediate 30% discount on their purchases (predicated on I'm able to easily convert to other currencies if choose to do so, perhaps publicly displaying that at least X% (15%?) is held to show support).

great idea and much needed direction. For sure it will be popular.

[Gleb Gamow]

Strangely enough, I was able to read through the negs, giving the quasi-PR some balance, couple with you folks further in the limelight to address more concerns from us "monumental assholes".

Since I've yet to read what Decred's main utility is (if there is one), may I offer up a suggestion?: Entities except Decred when they are offering a 30% or more off sale on their products or services, or as a sole means to enjoy said discounts. Whether the idea flies or not, I'm strongly toying with accepting Decred for my forthcoming project where patrons paying with Ď will enjoy an immediate 30% discount on their purchases (predicated on I'm able to easily convert to other currencies if choose to do so, perhaps publicly displaying that at least X% (15%?) is held to show support).

great idea and much needed direction. For sure it will be popular.

Just searched and realized that I was the first to pen 'utility' in this thread.

[midvidyk]

New Signature for Full Member

Code:

[center][table][tr][td][url=https://decred.org][font=Arial Black][color=#111][b]D[color=#222]E[color=#333]C[color=#444]R[color=#555]E[color=#666]D[/b][/td]
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[td][url=https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1290358.0][b][color=#2024e6]Rethink [color=#3b3ebf]Digital [color=#4d4f9d]Currency[/b][/td]
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[td][url=https://github.com/decred][color=#32adc3][b]Github[/b][/url][/td]
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[decred]

Strangely enough, I was able to read through the negs, giving the quasi-PR some balance, couple with you folks further in the limelight to address more concerns from us "monumental assholes".

"Monumental assholes" are welcome in the project, so long as they bring logical, reasonable, and evidence-based discussion on the issues they want to address. The point raised about the negative comments is that no attempt was made to interact with people posting here and elsewhere prior to making definitive statements. That is not good.

Since I've yet to read what Decred's main utility is (if there is one), may I offer up a suggestion?: Entities except Decred when they are offering a 30% or more off sale on their products or services, or as a sole means to enjoy said discounts. Whether the idea flies or not, I'm strongly toying with accepting Decred for my forthcoming project where patrons paying with Ď will enjoy an immediate 30% discount on their purchases (predicated on I'm able to easily convert to other currencies if choose to do so, perhaps publicly displaying that at least X% (15%?) is held to show support).

You should do this for sure. All projects interested in stepping up and running their own initiatives like these will get support insofar as possible. If it is to the benefit of the community, it's contributory, and will enjoy support.

[decred]

Just to inform the community & dev team, sp_, the developer of ccminer sp-mod, claims that his current public release can do following numbers on 14 round blake-256 by using switch -a blake

Please contact him, he can further optimize this if a bounty is available. Also if anyone want to donate for his public release you are welcome to do so. Just goto his thread on the forum

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=826901.new#new

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=826901.msg13396843#msg13396843

This is duly noted. Thank you very much for your efforts in reaching out to sp_ and communicating your findings here. This is definitely something to pursue.

the newest sign for Sr. member and above

DECRED

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for Full member

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Good job on creating these! Just realised you haven't been thanked for them.

[msfeg]

Strangely enough, I was able to read through the negs, giving the quasi-PR some balance, couple with you folks further in the limelight to address more concerns from us "monumental assholes".

Since I've yet to read what Decred's main utility is (if there is one), may I offer up a suggestion?: Entities except Decred when they are offering a 30% or more off sale on their products or services, or as a sole means to enjoy said discounts. Whether the idea flies or not, I'm strongly toying with accepting Decred for my forthcoming project where patrons paying with Ď will enjoy an immediate 30% discount on their purchases (predicated on I'm able to easily convert to other currencies if choose to do so, perhaps publicly displaying that at least X% (15%?) is held to show support).

great idea and much needed direction. For sure it will be popular.

Just searched and realized that I was the first to pen 'utility' in this thread.

do you think this is utilitycoin?
utilitycoin failed and they use the stuff for this?