[ANN][DCR] Decred - Community Governance | Bitcoin Devs | Lightning Network

[thohsei3ohfa]

Interesting project, my favorite aspect is the ability of the coin to directly fund development (and not just to c0 folks, but anybody).

Questions for Decred team:

- Will there be support at any exchanges on genesis launch day?

- Is there a privacy policy regarding the identities you're collecting for the airdrop? (I couldn't find mention of this on your website)

- can you expand on what the constitution will look like? who will write it? I ask because you already mentioned a private entity that receives the 10% dev funding, but how will it decide who deserves to be awarded contracts?

- given the undeniable technical skill of your team as well as the team's history with bitcoin, why an alt coin? Have you considered the possibility of implementing the decred feature set as a 2 way peg sidechain [1] ? If you considered this but decided against it, can you say why?

To expand a little on my motivation for the last question: I ask because it seems odd to me that the btcsuite team would choose to compete with bitcoin when there are other options (potentially, maybe you can tell me why there aren't). In other words, you could potentially prove the design decisions behind decred in a sidechain, and bitcoin users could vote with their feet (i.e. coins) by moving to your chain.

[1] for an example of a simple sidechain design, see Paul Sztorc's proposal here: http://www.truthcoin.info/blog/drivechain/

[chrysophylax]

i confirm, my nVidia GTX 750Ti have 580MH/s for blake256 14rounds with "ccminer 1.5.78" and GTX 960 have 930MH/s you can try it on Saffroncoin, he used blake256 14rounds algo.

which pool are you using for the testing? ...

and what settings are you using on the commandline? ...

this looks like ccminer-spmod78 - correct? ...

#crysx

pool: http://www.miners-pool.eu/#!/pools

setting: ccminer.exe -q -a blake --intensity 24 -o stratum+tcp://stratum.eu.miners-pool.eu:8421 -u SMuUBPaqpwTCae7hRqcjc9xE6EAMoE996w -p 1

ccminer for nVidia cards: https://github.com/sp-hash/ccminer/releases/

if you have another nVidia card, write here your hashrate...

ill test tomorrow with the same settings ( but different address ) and see how we go ...

im finishing off a mates system this week also - and can test his cards as well ...

tanx ...

#crysx

[dedmaroz]

i confirm, my nVidia GTX 750Ti have 580MH/s for blake256 14rounds with "ccminer 1.5.78" and GTX 960 have 930MH/s you can try it on Saffroncoin, he used blake256 14rounds algo.

which pool are you using for the testing? ...

and what settings are you using on the commandline? ...

this looks like ccminer-spmod78 - correct? ...

#crysx

pool: http://www.miners-pool.eu/#!/pools

setting: ccminer.exe -q -a blake --intensity 24 -o stratum+tcp://stratum.eu.miners-pool.eu:8421 -u SMuUBPaqpwTCae7hRqcjc9xE6EAMoE996w -p 1

ccminer for nVidia cards: https://github.com/sp-hash/ccminer/releases/

if you have another nVidia card, write here your hashrate...

ill test tomorrow with the same settings ( but different address ) and see how we go ...

im finishing off a mates system this week also - and can test his cards as well ...

tanx ...

#crysx

you can try change the "intensity" value between 8-31, 31 is maximum

[dedmaroz]

will be available a mining pool in start day 18th?

[decred]

Interesting project, my favorite aspect is the ability of the coin to directly fund development (and not just to c0 folks, but anybody).

Questions for Decred team:

- Will there be support at any exchanges on genesis launch day?

The expectations is that there will be at least one exchange up within the first 4 weeks after launch. It may happen sooner, but it cannot be made a priority without it affecting the mainnet launch date. There is a lot of work that needs to get completed before mainnet launch on January 18th. Launch may be delayed by up to a week in order to get a final few important items completed, and this is without even thinking about the exchange issue.

- Is there a privacy policy regarding the identities you're collecting for the airdrop? (I couldn't find mention of this on your website)

Good point. The project forgot to put up a privacy policy for the airdrop. This was a bad oversight, however the information will not be used for any purpose outside the Decred airdrop. Your signup information will never be shared with anyone else and will only ever be used for the purpose of including people in the airdrop.

- can you expand on what the constitution will look like? who will write it? I ask because you already mentioned a private entity that receives the 10% dev funding, but how will it decide who deserves to be awarded contracts?

The Decred Constitution is a document that will describe the governance system, the process for doing paid work for Decred via the dev org, and the guiding principles of the project. It was drafted with input from a wide number of sources, including the developers, and this draft document will be made public in the near future. It is not an exhaustive and long document, but is intentionally compressed in form to be clear in wording about the process, and for it to be accessible to all users. It will be put up on GitHub for community input and proposed changes for further development.

- given the undeniable technical skill of your team as well as the team's history with bitcoin, why an alt coin? Have you considered the possibility of implementing the decred feature set as a 2 way peg sidechain [1] ? If you considered this but decided against it, can you say why?

To expand a little on my motivation for the last question: I ask because it seems odd to me that the btcsuite team would choose to compete with bitcoin when there are other options (potentially, maybe you can tell me why there aren't). In other words, you could potentially prove the design decisions behind decred in a sidechain, and bitcoin users could vote with their feet (i.e. coins) by moving to your chain.

[1] for an example of a simple sidechain design, see Paul Sztorc's proposal here: http://www.truthcoin.info/blog/drivechain/

Sidechains are an interesting addition to Bitcoin for testing new features, but there are a number of reasons that contributed to Decred not being developed as a sidechain.

• There is no financial incentive to develop a sidechain for developers unless they are paid by a 3rd party to create it. Since sidechains are designed to preserve the value of bitcoins transferred to them, it is not possible for developers to create a sidechain and derive a financial benefit directly, i.e., you put in work to make a great sidechain and you cannot benefit from that directly by increasing the number of bitcoins you have. If your sidechain positively affects the price of Bitcoin, you can indirectly benefit from the sidechain.
• The project believes there are fundamental problems with Bitcoin that will never get fixed with the current governance structure and social contract. In order to fix these problems, the project has substantially altered the incentive structures in Decred. Mapping these changes onto a sidechain would be complex work, make it so that developers cannot benefit from creating a successful project, and bind them to what the project considers an effectively broken governance model.
• Even in the event that the project made a popular sidechain for Bitcoin and many people switched to it, developers would stand to gain nothing to continue development in real terms. Bitcoin has shown that a donation-type model is not sustainable and a difficult burden to place on users, which has prompted reliance on outside funding that does not necessarily come from users directly involved in the process. So even in this extremely unlikely case where a project suddenly becomes popular, the development work is still unfunded or underfunded, which jeopardizes the future of the project.

The project certainly understands the motivations behind Bitcoin sidechains, however, the view is that they are not suitable for use when developing another cryptocurrency with Decred's goals.

[chrysophylax]

i confirm, my nVidia GTX 750Ti have 580MH/s for blake256 14rounds with "ccminer 1.5.78" and GTX 960 have 930MH/s you can try it on Saffroncoin, he used blake256 14rounds algo.

which pool are you using for the testing? ...

and what settings are you using on the commandline? ...

this looks like ccminer-spmod78 - correct? ...

#crysx

pool: http://www.miners-pool.eu/#!/pools

setting: ccminer.exe -q -a blake --intensity 24 -o stratum+tcp://stratum.eu.miners-pool.eu:8421 -u SMuUBPaqpwTCae7hRqcjc9xE6EAMoE996w -p 1

ccminer for nVidia cards: https://github.com/sp-hash/ccminer/releases/

if you have another nVidia card, write here your hashrate...

ill test tomorrow with the same settings ( but different address ) and see how we go ...

im finishing off a mates system this week also - and can test his cards as well ...

tanx ...

#crysx

you can try change the "intensity" value between 8-31, 31 is maximum

i use linux ...

have mainly the gigabyte 750ti oc lp cards in thefram ... but also have build a monster of a system for a mate of mine who wants to get into mining ... so i can test with that machine also ...

so ill try with various settings as spmod has xintensity settings also ...

tanx for your help ... later this afternoon ill give it a go ...

#crysx

[chriswen]

I want to clarify: the time between blocks of 5 minutes, the average block size in the first year, 25-23 coins?, about 105K units a year? This is the right calculations, I assumed that in the first year will produce around 4.7 million coins. That is, the financing of the project will be transferred to 470 thousand coins in the first year? (10%). Just want to understand everything before starting. It's very much like a full line of numbers bitcoin. Okay, the calculation roughly correct? Just earlier I was thinking that the blocks in the first year will be about 9-10 coins.

If you have a look at our previous post about the subsidy system

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1290358.msg13412287#msg13412287

you can see how this works out in detail.  For clarity, I'm reproducing the figures here:

• The per block subsidy starts at approximately 31.19 coins and decreases by a factor of 100/101 every 6,144 blocks, approximately 21.33 days assuming 5 minutes per block.
• The total number of coins by the end of year 1 is approximately 4.7M, with 1.68M coming from the premine and 3.02M coming from PoW, PoS and dev org subsidies.
• The dev org will get approximately 302K coins over the first year, most of which will be spent on an ongoing basis on development of the software.

So we're looking at 15% decrease in inflation per year.

And 50% every 4 years. So I guess its modeled to be similar to Bitcoin.

This means that eventually block subsidy will approach zero. There will still be security from PoS but they'll still rely on transaction fees.

It's interesting that unlike a regular PoS coin, the interest isn't indefinite.

[banqueiro]

I can easily understand you, @Blizzy, as this btcTalk forum is the home of the trolls (retarded kids). The worst place on the Internet, actually... I hardly ever feel like posting here... only if there's a really good reason.

I hope Decred succeeds and the community will have another forum, far away from this btcTalk.

I think we've all felt like this at one point or another. You can sign up at the Decred forum if that looks more appealing. The key is to remember if there's constructive discourse happening somewhere, it will be addressed and included, no matter where it occurs.

Thank you, I wish you success! Do your best!

...

lol

[iCEBREAKER]

I want to clarify: the time between blocks of 5 minutes, the average block size in the first year, 25-23 coins?, about 105K units a year? This is the right calculations, I assumed that in the first year will produce around 4.7 million coins. That is, the financing of the project will be transferred to 470 thousand coins in the first year? (10%). Just want to understand everything before starting. It's very much like a full line of numbers bitcoin. Okay, the calculation roughly correct? Just earlier I was thinking that the blocks in the first year will be about 9-10 coins.

If you have a look at our previous post about the subsidy system

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1290358.msg13412287#msg13412287

you can see how this works out in detail.  For clarity, I'm reproducing the figures here:

• The per block subsidy starts at approximately 31.19 coins and decreases by a factor of 100/101 every 6,144 blocks, approximately 21.33 days assuming 5 minutes per block.
• The total number of coins by the end of year 1 is approximately 4.7M, with 1.68M coming from the premine and 3.02M coming from PoW, PoS and dev org subsidies.
• The dev org will get approximately 302K coins over the first year, most of which will be spent on an ongoing basis on development of the software.

So we're looking at 15% decrease in inflation per year.

And 50% every 4 years. So I guess its modeled to be similar to Bitcoin.

This means that eventually block subsidy will approach zero. There will still be security from PoS but they'll still rely on transaction fees.

It's interesting that unlike a regular PoS coin, the interest isn't indefinite.

For the benefit of visual learners, it would be nice to have all this info put into a graph or two.

Does total emission depend on how many coins are being staked, or is there a fixed amount of PoS reward divided pro rata?

[hv_]

Interesting project, my favorite aspect is the ability of the coin to directly fund development (and not just to c0 folks, but anybody).

Questions for Decred team:

- Will there be support at any exchanges on genesis launch day?

The expectations is that there will be at least one exchange up within the first 4 weeks after launch. It may happen sooner, but it cannot be made a priority without it affecting the mainnet launch date. There is a lot of work that needs to get completed before mainnet launch on January 18th. Launch may be delayed by up to a week in order to get a final few important items completed, and this is without even thinking about the exchange issue.

- Is there a privacy policy regarding the identities you're collecting for the airdrop? (I couldn't find mention of this on your website)

Good point. The project forgot to put up a privacy policy for the airdrop. This was a bad oversight, however the information will not be used for any purpose outside the Decred airdrop. Your signup information will never be shared with anyone else and will only ever be used for the purpose of including people in the airdrop.

- can you expand on what the constitution will look like? who will write it? I ask because you already mentioned a private entity that receives the 10% dev funding, but how will it decide who deserves to be awarded contracts?

The Decred Constitution is a document that will describe the governance system, the process for doing paid work for Decred via the dev org, and the guiding principles of the project. It was drafted with input from a wide number of sources, including the developers, and this draft document will be made public in the near future. It is not an exhaustive and long document, but is intentionally compressed in form to be clear in wording about the process, and for it to be accessible to all users. It will be put up on GitHub for community input and proposed changes for further development.

- given the undeniable technical skill of your team as well as the team's history with bitcoin, why an alt coin? Have you considered the possibility of implementing the decred feature set as a 2 way peg sidechain [1] ? If you considered this but decided against it, can you say why?

To expand a little on my motivation for the last question: I ask because it seems odd to me that the btcsuite team would choose to compete with bitcoin when there are other options (potentially, maybe you can tell me why there aren't). In other words, you could potentially prove the design decisions behind decred in a sidechain, and bitcoin users could vote with their feet (i.e. coins) by moving to your chain.

[1] for an example of a simple sidechain design, see Paul Sztorc's proposal here: http://www.truthcoin.info/blog/drivechain/

Sidechains are an interesting addition to Bitcoin for testing new features, but there are a number of reasons that contributed to Decred not being developed as a sidechain.

• There is no financial incentive to develop a sidechain for developers unless they are paid by a 3rd party to create it. Since sidechains are designed to preserve the value of bitcoins transferred to them, it is not possible for developers to create a sidechain and derive a financial benefit directly, i.e., you put in work to make a great sidechain and you cannot benefit from that directly by increasing the number of bitcoins you have. If your sidechain positively affects the price of Bitcoin, you can indirectly benefit from the sidechain.
• The project believes there are fundamental problems with Bitcoin that will never get fixed with the current governance structure and social contract. In order to fix these problems, the project has substantially altered the incentive structures in Decred. Mapping these changes onto a sidechain would be complex work, make it so that developers cannot benefit from creating a successful project, and bind them to what the project considers an effectively broken governance model.
• Even in the event that the project made a popular sidechain for Bitcoin and many people switched to it, developers would stand to gain nothing to continue development in real terms. Bitcoin has shown that a donation-type model is not sustainable and a difficult burden to place on users, which has prompted reliance on outside funding that does not necessarily come from users directly involved in the process. So even in this extremely unlikely case where a project suddenly becomes popular, the development work is still unfunded or underfunded, which jeopardizes the future of the project.

The project certainly understands the motivations behind Bitcoin sidechains, however, the view is that they are not suitable for use when developing another cryptocurrency with Decred's goals.

..... All good thinking.... But I still have general questions about the entire project Decred:

A: Is it purely tech Driven? (Looks like)
B: Money Driven ?
C: Who Do You think are your Clients?

D: Did You Do a proper analysis about all that and did You come to a positive Business case? (Wonder Most Here...)

Many thanks for sharing and beeing transparent!

[Maicol792]

Hello, for AMD GPU r7 290 we have a miner for black256 14 round? How i can test it whit Decred? Thanks

[dedmaroz]

Hello, for AMD GPU r7 290 we have a miner for black256 14 round? How i can test it whit Decred? Thanks

Hi,

yes miner is available, its cgminer 3.7.2 for saffroncoin (blake256-14rounds). Link for test pool and blake cgminer is here: http://www.miners-pool.eu/#!/pools

estimated hashrate is:

R9 270 0,86GH/s
R9 290 1,70GH/s

test it and post here...

[Maicol792]

Hello, for AMD GPU r7 290 we have a miner for black256 14 round? How i can test it whit Decred? Thanks

Hi,

yes miner is available, its cgminer 3.7.2 for saffroncoin (blake256-14rounds). Link for test pool and blake cgminer is here: http://www.miners-pool.eu/#!/pools

estimated hashrate is:

R9 270 0,86GH/s
R9 290 1,70GH/s

test it and post here...

Thanks ... Today i test it and post here results :-) Thanks

[sambiohazard]

I ran sp-mod 78 on above pool & i got results.

gtx970: 1.42-1.45 GH/s @ 150-160 W

gtx750ti: 522 MH/s @ 50 W

Consider these to be conservative estimates as ambient temps here are in high 20C to low 30C. It seems results are very competitive for both AMD & nvidia. If anyone can post power draw for AMD cards it will become more clear.

[Maicol792]

Hello, for AMD GPU r7 290 we have a miner for black256 14 round? How i can test it whit Decred? Thanks

Hi,

yes miner is available, its cgminer 3.7.2 for saffroncoin (blake256-14rounds). Link for test pool and blake cgminer is here: http://www.miners-pool.eu/#!/pools

estimated hashrate is:

R9 270 0,86GH/s
R9 290 1,70GH/s

test it and post here...

Thanks ... Today i test it and post here results :-) Thanks

Now i testing.... whit my R9 270 i have near 0,87GH/s ... in same moment i go at near 1 GH/s.. i can confirm this value... but this is good for mining DECRED?

[Riseman]

Looks like an interesting project. Signed up for the airdrop.

[grumpytiger211]

signed up for airdrop very interesting im in

[decred]

Just to let everyone know, airdrop invitation e-mails will start going out January 8th, 2016. They'll continue being sent out over the weekend and early next week. Airdrop applications will continue being accepted until January 18th, 2016, and invitation e-mails will continue until prior to mainnet launch. The project has been swamped with interest and every application gets individual attention, so there will be more information about mainnet launch as well. The current anticipation is a delay of one week, which is unfortunate, but it's important to give all the applications proper attention and not leave people behind.

There are some really talented people who have signed up to join the Decred network and community. It's humbling to think there are so many high calibre individuals who want to explore technology together to build on what Decred is putting forward. You're thanked from the bottom of the hearts of those who have built it up to this point, and it's going to be an honour to work together and see where the wind in our sails takes us.

[edmundduke]

Just to let everyone know, airdrop invitation e-mails will start going out January 8th, 2016. They'll continue being sent out over the weekend and early next week. Airdrop applications will continue being accepted until January 18th, 2016, and invitation e-mails will continue until prior to mainnet launch. The project has been swamped with interest and every application gets individual attention, so there will be more information about mainnet launch as well. The current anticipation is a delay of one week, which is unfortunate, but it's important to give all the applications proper attention and not leave people behind.

There are some really talented people who have signed up to join the Decred network and community. It's humbling to think there are so many high calibre individuals who want to explore technology together to build on what Decred is putting forward. You're thanked from the bottom of the hearts of those who have built it up to this point, and it's going to be an honour to work together and see where the wind in our sails takes us.

Thank you for the update! Its nice to hear that a lot of skilled people are joining, it will help to push the project even further if great minds work together.  So 18th is the last day for joining ? Or should all be done by then as its the airdrop date (unless it gets extended if too many join)

[Justicemaxx]

Just to let everyone know, airdrop invitation e-mails will start going out January 8th, 2016. They'll continue being sent out over the weekend and early next week. Airdrop applications will continue being accepted until January 18th, 2016, and invitation e-mails will continue until prior to mainnet launch. The project has been swamped with interest and every application gets individual attention, so there will be more information about mainnet launch as well. The current anticipation is a delay of one week, which is unfortunate, but it's important to give all the applications proper attention and not leave people behind.

There are some really talented people who have signed up to join the Decred network and community. It's humbling to think there are so many high calibre individuals who want to explore technology together to build on what Decred is putting forward. You're thanked from the bottom of the hearts of those who have built it up to this point, and it's going to be an honour to work together and see where the wind in our sails takes us.

Great. Do it right, don't rush, better to do everything efficiently, even with the delay. New year and Christmas, it's distracting, but nothing bad. In the hope that the coin will move BTC ))