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Author Topic: - AURORACOIN -  (Read 111305 times)
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ny2cafuse
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November 29, 2016, 08:01:32 PM
 #461

Nope, no worries.

However: if you do want to make a change to shorten the period, you should rather do it early (as in: now) than later. I would suggest to leave things as they currently are, though. Any change affecting predictability of supply (not just total supply, but also generation rate) better be damn well reasoned. I really can't think of any reason that would merit such a change at this point.

I totally get what you're saying.  Short of some kind of bug or unforeseen catastrophe, I can't see a reason to change any of the supply dynamics ever again.  Even then, it would take an act of God to get us to make those changes without complete community(merchant/user) approval.  The fact that the halving change has been in place, and this is the first time someone has really mentioned it is a good thing.  It means it wasn't disruptive.

As always, thanks for the input, mate!

-Fuse

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November 29, 2016, 09:33:30 PM
 #462

So, I've been trying to find out when the mining reward will half.

Looking at the code, it seems like it's going to be at block 2,100,000, which *would* turn out as roughly 4 years from genesis had we been mining multialgo all along. But since the first 225000 were mined with much lower speed (but equally higher subsidy), we "lost" 2 years and the reward halfing will be roughly 3 years from now (6 years from genesis).

I rounded the numbers generously, but is this correct?


Molecular, you are correct.  Instead of trying to make changes to it, we just went with the static number based on what it would have been had we been multi-algo.  We figured if there was significant reason to calculate the 4 year mark and redo the code, we had a bit of time to make it work.

Any worries about it other than it changes the reward/time curve for this initial period?

-Fuse

Nope, no worries.

However: if you do want to make a change to shorten the period, you should rather do it early (as in: now) than later. I would suggest to leave things as they currently are, though. Any change affecting predictability of supply (not just total supply, but also generation rate) better be damn well reasoned. I really can't think of any reason that would merit such a change at this point.



With the unforeseen arise of the ASIC's during the beginning of cryptocurrencies, the whole halving idea might be a bit outdated. Dropping the halving protocol and making the reward a static one could perhaps solve it easily?

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November 30, 2016, 08:53:24 AM
 #463

The rise of difficulty should counteract the ASICs, to some extend. The halving was made to (1) restrict the creation of the coin and (2) reward the mining effort, while the influence of newly created coins on the economy would have a reducing effect, allowing it to grow. Fees should take over the mining rewards at halving and eventually the stop of generation of new coins. The time of halving becomes less and less a factor on the market with each halving.
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November 30, 2016, 09:05:04 AM
 #464

Dropping the halving protocol and making the reward a static one could perhaps solve it easily?

A constant reward is IMHO not such a good idea, as it doesn't take into consideration that the market will grow. In a young market there is much more risk involved regarding success of the coin, which IMHO should also pay off for the miners. Later, if the coin really takes off, there is less risk involved. How would you justify this to the early miners? They get the same reward, more profit, for less risk.
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November 30, 2016, 12:05:54 PM
 #465

soo... anybody in Iceland knows this coin ?

10% of the Icelandic population took the effort of claiming in 2014-2015

Every now and then the coin hits the largest newspapers in Iceland, last was connected to the vice documentary film http://motherboard.vice.com/read/auroracoin


Other recent news coverage is connected to the isx.is Icelandic exchange opening.

If you ask people here if they know cryptocoins they all know about Auroracoin.



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November 30, 2016, 04:26:54 PM
 #466

Dropping the halving protocol and making the reward a static one could perhaps solve it easily?

A constant reward is IMHO not such a good idea, as it doesn't take into consideration that the market will grow. In a young market there is much more risk involved regarding success of the coin, which IMHO should also pay off for the miners. Later, if the coin really takes off, there is less risk involved. How would you justify this to the early miners? They get the same reward, more profit, for less risk.

This is interesting.

Firstly, a small introduction; after some of my last posts in here a while ago, I got some PM's from a few users telling me about the coin Gulden. Never heard of that coin before, but I was kinda surprised by it because the amount of users, and all of them talking about this one single coin. So I checked them out to see if they were genuine accounts or not, but they seemed legit. That seemed strange to me. Afterwards, I learned there is some history between some of the Aurora team and those of the Gulden team. I don't care what is was or is, but Gulden had been put on my lower radar.
Now, regarding the market and such what you are referring to; that coin has a static reward, seemed to have a rather stable network hashrate, and a rather stable price. No gibberish or fail intentions (like TRIG tokens or Titycoins and such), and no pump & dump coin. So, just another coin. And then, out of the blue (no major announcements or things like that), that coin started to gain some serious traction; in just a rather small amount of time, both it's network hashrate and price exploded to like 10x, and even more. It looked like just another P&D thingy going on in cryptoworld, yet afterwards it turned out that was not the case.
All I want to say with all the above, is that markets can grow with a static reward.

Regarding the miners and rewards and such, I have a question back for you, taken into consideration the intention of getting AUR adopted into Iceland and assuming this will be the case somewhere due time: How would you justify the volatile risk of yet another exposure, where the value of a currency is mainly controlled by a few?
With halvings, the ones first in can hoard the majority of the coins. The more halvings due time, the less people can hoard due time. If a coin takes off, more people start to hoard, which means lesser rewards (halvings) will have to be divided among more people. Just take a look at the Bitcoin, and you'll get my satoshi hoarding picture.
Wouldn't it be fairer, to provide equal opportunities for everyone, where it does not matter when one would or could hop in anywhere at any given time, especially when there is to some degree some kind of altruistic intention to bring a foothold for this coin to real life everyday persons? Not bankers, traders, early-in-smart-guys and all that, but regular and (the) common people?

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November 30, 2016, 05:36:24 PM
 #467

Regarding the miners and rewards and such, I have a question back for you, taken into consideration the intention of getting AUR adopted into Iceland and assuming this will be the case somewhere due time: How would you justify the volatile risk of yet another exposure, where the value of a currency is mainly controlled by a few?
With halvings, the ones first in can hoard the majority of the coins. The more halvings due time, the less people can hoard due time. If a coin takes off, more people start to hoard, which means lesser rewards (halvings) will have to be divided among more people. Just take a look at the Bitcoin, and you'll get my satoshi hoarding picture.
Wouldn't it be fairer, to provide equal opportunities for everyone, where it does not matter when one would or could hop in anywhere at any given time, especially when there is to some degree some kind of altruistic intention to bring a foothold for this coin to real life everyday persons? Not bankers, traders, early-in-smart-guys and all that, but regular and (the) common people?

I don't care to discuss Gulden here, so I'm going to skip most of that part and address the last part of your post.  I will say this though.  NLG had already reduced it's block rewards 10 fold.  They were less "fair" with their rewards than you think. (https://github.com/Gulden/gulden-official/blob/master/src/main.cpp#L1200)

The risk you're talking about is really just related to miners, which is understandable.  However, miners aren't the target audience for AUR, and the dynamics of how the market will function later negates any of these risks anyway.  True the supply of AUR will reduce as halving occurs, but by that time(3 years from now), we should have a pretty stable AUR economy already in place, where miners are just keeping the blockchain moving, not dictating the market.  People can hoard now, and they can hoard later.  It's not happening with mining, but rather exchange purchases.  If in 3 years, the majority of Icelandic people we're trying to reach don't get on board with AUR, we're not going to adjust subsidies to be fairer to those people.

-Fuse

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November 30, 2016, 05:57:33 PM
 #468

soo... anybody in Iceland knows this coin ?

10% of the Icelandic population took the effort of claiming in 2014-2015

"10% of the icelandic "social security numbers" (kennitalia?) we're used to claim coins" would probably be closer to the truth.

I don't mean to FUD about possible (likely) shenanigans with the airdrop process or even accuse anyone, but you have to account at least for the fact that probably a lot of Icelanders claimed coins for their friends and relatives.

10% is insanely high, I just don't believe it unless it's supported with some proof or at least indications. Before the first airdrop my hope was that 1% would claim their coins.

The more interesting question I have is: how many Icelanders (or internationals, doesn't make much difference) HODL any AUR?

If you ask people here if they know cryptocoins they all know about Auroracoin.

Your sample might  be biased.

EDIT: Please don't take this as an attack or anything of that sort. I'm just trying to avoid expectations being too high.

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November 30, 2016, 08:48:52 PM
 #469

All I want to say with all the above, is that markets can grow with a static reward.

I'm also not touching the Gulden topic as well. But reading the quote above, I think you turned my point around. It's not that markets can't grow, but IMHO (in the case of Gulden) miners NOW will profit relatively more than those in the past, WITH reduced risk.

But in general, mining facilitates the chain (and its economy), not the other way around. Mining should not be the main focus of a coin.

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November 30, 2016, 09:09:22 PM
 #470

Regarding the miners and rewards and such, I have a question back for you, taken into consideration the intention of getting AUR adopted into Iceland and assuming this will be the case somewhere due time: How would you justify the volatile risk of yet another exposure, where the value of a currency is mainly controlled by a few?

The current market is not very liquid and a large quantity of the coins are held by people known by the dev team. Roughly a month ago the Cryptsy wallet funds were transferred to Bittrex. Coins were held, which allowed us to catch them from being dumped by placing market orders. I think with no other coin, developers would have stepped up to protect the market at such dump. A relative stable price is IMHO also important for a coin.

Quote
With halvings, the ones first in can hoard the majority of the coins. The more halvings due time, the less people can hoard due time. If a coin takes off, more people start to hoard, which means lesser rewards (halvings) will have to be divided among more people. Just take a look at the Bitcoin, and you'll get my satoshi hoarding picture.
Wouldn't it be fairer, to provide equal opportunities for everyone, where it does not matter when one would or could hop in anywhere at any given time, especially when there is to some degree some kind of altruistic intention to bring a foothold for this coin to real life everyday persons? Not bankers, traders, early-in-smart-guys and all that, but regular and (the) common people?

Most hoardings are done through buying them at the exchange, not mining. Miners also need to pay electricity bills and equipment upgrades, so hoarding is only limited.
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November 30, 2016, 09:33:58 PM
 #471

soo... anybody in Iceland knows this coin ?

10% of the Icelandic population took the effort of claiming in 2014-2015

"10% of the icelandic "social security numbers" (kennitalia?) we're used to claim coins" would probably be closer to the truth.

I don't mean to FUD about possible (likely) shenanigans with the airdrop process or even accuse anyone, but you have to account at least for the fact that probably a lot of Icelanders claimed coins for their friends and relatives.

10% is insanely high, I just don't believe it unless it's supported with some proof or at least indications. Before the first airdrop my hope was that 1% would claim their coins.

The more interesting question I have is: how many Icelanders (or internationals, doesn't make much difference) HODL any AUR?

If you ask people here if they know cryptocoins they all know about Auroracoin.

Your sample might  be biased.

EDIT: Please don't take this as an attack or anything of that sort. I'm just trying to avoid expectations being too high.


Thats true, I claimed coins for my family, but still remember all those people that hold the "social security numbers" that were used had to verify themselves via Facebook account, phone number or government id, which makes it close family or someone literally sitting next to the person who claimed the coins on their behalf.

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November 30, 2016, 10:15:24 PM
 #472

So, I've been trying to find out when the mining reward will half.

Looking at the code, it seems like it's going to be at block 2,100,000, which *would* turn out as roughly 4 years from genesis had we been mining multialgo all along. But since the first 225000 were mined with much lower speed (but equally higher subsidy), we "lost" 2 years and the reward halfing will be roughly 3 years from now (6 years from genesis).

I rounded the numbers generously, but is this correct?


Molecular, you are correct.  Instead of trying to make changes to it, we just went with the static number based on what it would have been had we been multi-algo.  We figured if there was significant reason to calculate the 4 year mark and redo the code, we had a bit of time to make it work.

Any worries about it other than it changes the reward/time curve for this initial period?

-Fuse


Nope, no worries.

However: if you do want to make a change to shorten the period, you should rather do it early (as in: now) than later. I would suggest to leave things as they currently are, though. Any change affecting predictability of supply (not just total supply, but also generation rate) better be damn well reasoned. I really can't think of any reason that would merit such a change at this point.



With the unforeseen arise of the ASIC's during the beginning of cryptocurrencies, the whole halving idea might be a bit outdated. Dropping the halving protocol and making the reward a static one could perhaps solve it easily?

On this topic I say it doesn't matter if we have halving or continuously smaller and smaller reward. It might be elegant and smoother to have ever decreasing reward that will make the total coin count hit the hard cap of 21.000.000 coins in the same time as the halving architecture. The idea is to create limited amount of coins and predictability. I think it is easier to tell people that the supply halves every 4 years on average than to try to explain how the reward curve really looks like.

The idea of ever decreasing inflation and a hard coin cap is one of the cornerstones of cryptos for me.

Coming from Iceland where we have since ~1993 10,5x the amount of money in circulation, M3 supply (http://sedlabanki.datamarket.com/data/set/5258/bankakerfi-peningamagn#!ds=5258!8ub8=1.2&display=line) with continuous inflation up by 235% since 1996 (https://datamarket.com/is/data/set/uu8/visitala-neysluverds-til-verdtryggingar#!ds=uu8!3pr=3&display=line) having a coin with decreasing inflation is the biggest selling point to me.

NB. all housing loans in Iceland are tied to the CPI, so if we have 235% inflation over the next 10-20 years the principal of all Icelandic housing debt will not be paid down but will increase by 235%. The idea of a hamster on a wheel is the only thing that comes into my mind.

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December 02, 2016, 02:44:45 PM
 #473

Birgitta the captain of the Pirate party has been summoned to the president of Iceland and will probably get the opportunity to create a coalition government.

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December 02, 2016, 05:03:44 PM
 #474

Birgitta the captain of the Pirate party has been summoned to the president of Iceland and will probably get the opportunity to create a coalition government.

And she got it Smiley
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December 03, 2016, 06:25:49 AM
 #475

Birgitta the captain of the Pirate party has been summoned to the president of Iceland and will probably get the opportunity to create a coalition government.

And she got it Smiley

When will she make AUR the official currency of Iceland? She better not opt for bitcoin.





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dinobotta
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December 03, 2016, 11:51:58 PM
 #476

Birgitta the captain of the Pirate party has been summoned to the president of Iceland and will probably get the opportunity to create a coalition government.

And she got it Smiley

When will she make AUR the official currency of Iceland? She better not opt for bitcoin.

She is open to crypto's as a whole. I'm not betting on her creating a coalition government and the main topic is going to be crypto's more likely she will want to change the constitution and item nr 20 is implementing or changing the laws on money and opening it up for crypto's.

"Lost coins only make everyone else’s coins worth slightly more. Think of it as a donation to everyone". Satoshi Nakamoto
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December 04, 2016, 02:56:06 AM
 #477

i'm really a supporter of those feminine coin. hoping that with the feminine touch and sweetness of being a feminine coin this coin will go further and will live longer. Wink


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dbstmddhks
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December 08, 2016, 06:25:54 AM
 #478

Anymachine could mine this coin !

But this coin need another merits to support.


From wan.
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ARIZN - Tokenised Crowdfunding Platform


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December 08, 2016, 03:20:05 PM
 #479

Birgitta the captain of the Pirate party has been summoned to the president of Iceland and will probably get the opportunity to create a coalition government.

And she got it Smiley

Birgitta leading the charge would be an insanely good news.  I won't get into details, but we know for a fact that she is fully supporting cryptos and auroracoin.

Looking forward to it - but If my understanding is good, there is little chance to get a coalition out of it - water and fire don't mess well.


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JessicaG
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December 08, 2016, 03:48:46 PM
 #480

Birgitta the captain of the Pirate party has been summoned to the president of Iceland and will probably get the opportunity to create a coalition government.

And she got it Smiley

Birgitta leading the charge would be an insanely good news.  I won't get into details, but we know for a fact that she is fully supporting cryptos and auroracoin.

Looking forward to it - but If my understanding is good, there is little chance to get a coalition out of it - water and fire don't mess well.

You just made my day  Grin

(it should be "don't mix well"; the opposite, mixing them, indeed would give a mess  Wink)


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