Steemit how can this thing be workable long term?

[iamnotback]

What IF....  10% os STEEM continues to be liquid?
What IF.... almost 100% of STEEM is POWERED UP?
What IF.... some IF's help us more in our FUDing attemps than others?

What IF no one wants to invest but only to extract:

Bottom line is you don't bind people in futures contracts if you want people to invest in something freely. When you create time locked bindings, you create bad effects ALWAYS.

The reason is because the system can't anneal in real-time. People view this as additional risk and thus avoid investing. Thus they can only view it for extraction, as a freebie they can parasite on. Not something to invest in.

My point is that on one wants to willingly convert STEEM to SP. That is the salient point.

You are trying to force the market to do something and you've set the incentives all hokey fucked up by your kook leader Dan.

The free market will react accordingly.

You ask smooth if he feels having his $5 million locked up for 104 weeks is not risky. You ask him if he feels he can use his votes to insure long-term success. Hell no. He is extracting passively.

Nobody is investing to make something great. Everybody is extracting.

Now go tell your kook leader, I said he is a kook.

I am headed to the gym to do some boxing.

Edit: you can't force people to invest against their free will. By holding them hostage, and trying to force some people to always hold SP, it doesn't mean you can force value to be created. Instead the free market will suck all the value out as fast it can, because the opportunity cost is that there are better investments outside that have more degrees-of-freedom. The free market routes around Coasian barriers. So instead of the investment and effort you wanted, you will get a wasteland of extraction. Watch and remember I told you.

When I get back, I will go dig up quotes from 2013, where AnonyMint was explaining to Daniel that he is a Communist in facade Libertarian skin. I always knew he would do some kook shit like this.

[smooth]

My point is that on one wants to willingly convert STEEM to SP. That is the salient point.

That's clearly wrong in looking at the blockchain.

[iamnotback]

I am going to flood the Steemit site with filipino bloggers. More the merrier. As many as possible should get their free $10 of SP. We will start the viral campaign on Facebook once the Steemit site is back up from the hack recovery.

Don't so I didn't do my part to help 

[iamnotback]

My point is that on one wants to willingly convert STEEM to SP. That is the salient point.

That's clearly wrong in looking at the blockchain.

Clearly eh. Are you so sure everything is clear. Are you supporting this kook now?

Do you know who is doing that?

Couldn't that be Dan manipulating? Using the 80% supply to award the $10s for signups?

I read SP can not be traded, so it has to be converted to STEEM before traded, but signups only get SP.

Who would convert STEEM to SP willingly? They'd have to be a fool.

[Divinespark]

Looks like there was a small hack on the Steemit network
https://steemit.com/steemit/@steemitblog/important-security-announcement-steemit-ceo-ned-scott

[bones261]

My point is that on one wants to willingly convert STEEM to SP. That is the salient point.

That's clearly wrong in looking at the blockchain.

Clearly eh. Are you so sure everything is clear. Are you supporting this kook now?

Do you know who is doing that?

Couldn't that be Dan manipulating? Using the 80% supply to award the $10s for signups?

I read SP can not be traded, so it has to be converted to STEEM before traded, but signups only get SP.

Who would convert STEEM to SP willingly? They'd have to be a fool.

It would be a fool who wants to be a bagholder in hopes of earning 100% passive interest. or whatever it works out to be with the 9:1 ratio.

[bacchist]

My point is that on one wants to willingly convert STEEM to SP. That is the salient point.

I made the point earlier in the thread that most people were converting their STEEM to SP. That's verifiable fact.

You're making things up out of whole cloth in order to make baseless accusations about it being a pyramid scheme, and impugning the character of a person who has 100% of their stake in Steem in the form of SP. He is invested for the long haul, and that is verifiable. It's on the blockchain. You can see the balance of his wallet.

The fact that the richest accounts have the vast majority of their stake invested in the platform tells you all you need to know. They are in it for the long haul.

If you actually believe that Dan and his team are evil geniuses who have created a pyramid scheme and produced a $350 million market cap out of thin air based on some kind of elaborate deception, you should at least give them credit for having a plan to walk away with something to show for it. You can't simultaneously present them as masterminds and unwitting dupes.

The simple fact is that Ned and Dan have more of a reason to want Steem to be viable long term than literally anybody. If things go south, they wouldn't even be able to react fast enough to cut and run. They're forced to do everything in their power to ensure Steemit's long term success, due to the realities of the platform's incentive structure. And so is every single other person who owns SP. At the end of the day, that's why it will succeed.

But please... don't pretend that Dan is trying to pull one over on anybody. He's not offering anybody a value proposition he hasn't already accepted himself. And he has as much or more to lose than anybody involved. That's not speculation.. it's right there on the blockchain for all to see.

[bacchist]

How do you know that the exchange rate will adjust accordingly ? It may not, markets don't always act rational, even more so when everyone are told that 9/10 of their wealth will be wiped out

The exchange rate of VESTs to SP is not determined by market forces. It is hard coded to change over time in order to dilute the supply of SP.

You can check the current rate at https://steemd.com/distribution

Currently it is

Code:

1M VESTS = 216.819 STEEM

Note that what is called SP is simply VEST balance denominated in STEEM equivalents.

There are mechanisms in that act as automatic stabilizers in the case of market volatility, by the way... We could eventually discuss those. They're very clever.

[magicalacademy]

How do you know that the exchange rate will adjust accordingly ? It may not, markets don't always act rational, even more so when everyone are told that 9/10 of their wealth will be wiped out

The exchange rate of VESTs to SP is not determined by market forces. It is hard coded to change over time in order to dilute the supply of SP.

You can check the current rate at https://steemd.com/distribution

Currently it is

Code:

1M VESTS = 216.819 STEEM

Note that what is called SP is simply VEST balance denominated in STEEM equivalents.

There are mechanisms in that act as automatic stabilizers in the case of market volatility, by the way... We could eventually discuss those. They're very clever.

Why the need to dilute the supply of steem power if 9/10 of it are wiped out every 3 year?


Another question. Posts on the steem front page are being rewarded more $ than a week ago due to the steem price rise. It means that the mecanism in place rewards the same amount of steem per posts. This creates a situation where the more content is published the less rewards each posts will get. Wouldn't it be better to reward a certain amount of steem proportionally to the current steem price, so that the higher the price of steem goes the more post can be rewarded instead of the higher each post can get rewarded. Hopefully that make sense lol

[bones261]

How do you know that the exchange rate will adjust accordingly ? It may not, markets don't always act rational, even more so when everyone are told that 9/10 of their wealth will be wiped out

The exchange rate of VESTs to SP is not determined by market forces. It is hard coded to change over time in order to dilute the supply of SP.

You can check the current rate at https://steemd.com/distribution

Currently it is

Code:

1M VESTS = 216.819 STEEM

Note that what is called SP is simply VEST balance denominated in STEEM equivalents.

There are mechanisms in that act as automatic stabilizers in the case of market volatility, by the way... We could eventually discuss those. They're very clever.

I think the mechanisms are absolutely convoluted.  I guess that you can spin that as "clever."  A 10 to 1 reverse split every three years to calibrate precision? WTF is that about? Also, the "mining" is convoluted. The "miners" are not actually adding to the blockchain with their hashing. All a correct hash does is put the miner in a queue, with the hopes of being selected among the other 20 witnesses, to create a DPOS block.

[bacchist]

Why the need to dilute the supply of steem power if 9/10 of it are wiped out every 3 year?


Another question. Posts on the steem front page are being rewarded more $ than a week ago due to the steem price rise. It means that the mecanism in place rewards the same amount of steem per posts. This creates a situation where the more content is published the less rewards each posts will get. Wouldn't it be better to reward a certain amount of steem proportionally to the current steem price, so that the higher the price of steem goes the more post can be rewarded instead of the higher each post can get rewarded. Hopefully that make sense lol

The supply of STEEM is diluted to incentivize long term investment. Most Steem is created as SP, rather than liquid Steem. Unfortunately I don't have time to go into it further, but that is the quick and dirty.

There are a lot of mechanics at play, but it really is well conceived when you wrap your head around it.

[bones261]

Why the need to dilute the supply of steem power if 9/10 of it are wiped out every 3 year?


Another question. Posts on the steem front page are being rewarded more $ than a week ago due to the steem price rise. It means that the mecanism in place rewards the same amount of steem per posts. This creates a situation where the more content is published the less rewards each posts will get. Wouldn't it be better to reward a certain amount of steem proportionally to the current steem price, so that the higher the price of steem goes the more post can be rewarded instead of the higher each post can get rewarded. Hopefully that make sense lol

The supply of STEEM is diluted to incentivize long term investment. Most Steem is created as SP, rather than liquid Steem. Unfortunately I don't have time to go into it further, but that is the quick and dirty.

There are a lot of mechanics at play, but it really is well conceived when you wrap your head around it.

What's next on the Steem dev team agenda? Create a working prototype of a perpetual motion machine?   

[jeffthebaker]

I joined Steemit the very first day. I've used it a bit and checked back occassionally since. There are plenty of flaws with Steemit that goes beyond the obvious pumpNdump/pyramid/inflation/whatever you want to call it economic problems.

The problem with a platform like Steemit is it caters to the okayest and the most, not the best. What I mean by this is the way the voting/payment system works, everyone is looking for the most "good" content to upvote, because others will upvote it as well. Tits and walls of text are dominating trending day in and day out. You can read these posts, and many of them are riddled with errors and generally average quality. Why? Because everyone involved is there to make a profit (look at the dozens of monetization guides that get voted to the top). It's not about having something new, thought provoking, or different, it's about circlejerking anything and everything that the community can agree is worthy of votes.

The result is a feedback loop and a subsequent echochamber of the same recycled garbage over and over again under new names. Steemit claims to seek to provide a curated news source. That isn't going to happen because the only things getting votes will be in line with the community's opinions. FFS, look at how every other god damn post is an introduceyourself post. There is no value in this platform other than getting rich off of the efforts of others. It's a top heavy ecosystem and everyone disillusioned with the thought that they can make money are lining the pockets of the dev team and the top posters/botters.

I should have realized that because the more high reputation votes on a post that one votes on, the more curation reward they receive. Thanks. That is the most astute post I've read. Thus as you say, it becomes all about the game and not some other quality of the content, thus the content will become dysfunctional w.r.t. (unrelated) to any criteria other than the game.

And this result will apply to their plans for Peertracks also. It won't be about the quality or social diverse matching of the music. It will be about driving pumps to shares.

I'm surprised more people haven't already mentioned this. It's already a huge problem with twitter (feeds are universally cluttered by garbage "parody" accounts that just repost the same tweets and videos, regardless of if you follow any of them or not). With a site that rewards users for voting with the majority and hurts them for voting incorrectly, this problem will only be amplified. Even already the content on steemit is incredibly monotone. The trending page can be summed up as guides, "steemit is my lord and savior" circlerjerks, and introduction posts. Sometimes you get crypto personalities who make posts as well, but that's rarer.

[magicalacademy]

Why the need to dilute the supply of steem power if 9/10 of it are wiped out every 3 year?


Another question. Posts on the steem front page are being rewarded more $ than a week ago due to the steem price rise. It means that the mecanism in place rewards the same amount of steem per posts. This creates a situation where the more content is published the less rewards each posts will get. Wouldn't it be better to reward a certain amount of steem proportionally to the current steem price, so that the higher the price of steem goes the more post can be rewarded instead of the higher each post can get rewarded. Hopefully that make sense lol

The supply of STEEM is diluted to incentivize long term investment. Most Steem is created as SP, rather than liquid Steem. Unfortunately I don't have time to go into it further, but that is the quick and dirty.

There are a lot of mechanics at play, but it really is well conceived when you wrap your head around it.

Nobody is going to lock their wealth in SP when 9/10th of it is gonna be wiped out to counter high inflation rate, not even a dilution mecansim.

I don't have the numbers at hand but say today's ratio of posts getting a reward VS posts getting none is around 10 to 100. Now when millions of users uses the platform the gap will be gigantic with only so much you can pay with a mere 10% inflation.

[magicalacademy]

I joined Steemit the very first day. I've used it a bit and checked back occassionally since. There are plenty of flaws with Steemit that goes beyond the obvious pumpNdump/pyramid/inflation/whatever you want to call it economic problems.

The problem with a platform like Steemit is it caters to the okayest and the most, not the best. What I mean by this is the way the voting/payment system works, everyone is looking for the most "good" content to upvote, because others will upvote it as well. Tits and walls of text are dominating trending day in and day out. You can read these posts, and many of them are riddled with errors and generally average quality. Why? Because everyone involved is there to make a profit (look at the dozens of monetization guides that get voted to the top). It's not about having something new, thought provoking, or different, it's about circlejerking anything and everything that the community can agree is worthy of votes.

The result is a feedback loop and a subsequent echochamber of the same recycled garbage over and over again under new names. Steemit claims to seek to provide a curated news source. That isn't going to happen because the only things getting votes will be in line with the community's opinions. FFS, look at how every other god damn post is an introduceyourself post. There is no value in this platform other than getting rich off of the efforts of others. It's a top heavy ecosystem and everyone disillusioned with the thought that they can make money are lining the pockets of the dev team and the top posters/botters.

I should have realized that because the more high reputation votes on a post that one votes on, the more curation reward they receive. Thanks. That is the most astute post I've read. Thus as you say, it becomes all about the game and not some other quality of the content, thus the content will become dysfunctional w.r.t. (unrelated) to any criteria other than the game.

And this result will apply to their plans for Peertracks also. It won't be about the quality or social diverse matching of the music. It will be about driving pumps to shares.

I'm surprised more people haven't already mentioned this. It's already a huge problem with twitter (feeds are universally cluttered by garbage "parody" accounts that just repost the same tweets and videos, regardless of if you follow any of them or not). With a site that rewards users for voting with the majority and hurts them for voting incorrectly, this problem will only be amplified. Even already the content on steemit is incredibly monotone. The trending page can be summed up as guides, "steemit is my lord and savior" circlerjerks, and introduction posts. Sometimes you get crypto personalities who make posts as well, but that's rarer.

That's even worse than you think actually cuz most of the steem power supply is in a handful of hands. The natural course of action is that these wealthy and powerfull people would collude with each other to vote between themselves so they can get richer and even more powerfull, no different from the real world.

Even governments could buy lots of steem ( thanks to the printing press) and decide what's gets on the front page and what's doesn't. All in the name of decentralization!

[CoinHoarder]

Well, this has turned into quite the anti-Steem circle jerk. It is clear some of you have not read the white paper, as you are wrong/confused about several things. Yet, I have wasted enough time with trolls already. I am certain there are at least a couple sock puppets posting here too. It us funny that as soon as Steem shot up coin market cap all the other bag holders feel the need to tear it down to prop up whatever they are bag holding. Very sad indeed.

[wintercooled]

Am I right in thinking that the steem currnecy was pre-mined and in the hands of the owner of Steemit?

So when they talk about Steem's market cap are they including the 60% (or whatever it is) that he owns?

For the sake of easy Maths:

Isn't this a bit like creating 1,000,000 tokens, giving 1000 away to people who join early on, letting them trade them against something with actual value so they are given a price (let's say 1 USD$ for the sake of the example) then giving new joiners 10 of them each with an incentive to buy more so they can boost each others posts and make more steem. As more people join and try to buy vote booster tokens in order to make more the price rises to 2 USD$ then the owner declares the market cap as USD$2,000,000 (original million that were mined * 2 USD$)?

I know there is more to it than that what with Tokens, Steem, Steem Dollars, Steem Power etc but they all just seem like ways to obfuscate what's going on.

Unless I've missed something that sounds like a bit of a 'dodgy' way to determine market cap.

[bones261]

Well, this has turned into quite the anti-Steem circle jerk. It is clear some of you have not read the white paper, as you are wrong/confused about several things. Yet, I have wasted enough time with trolls already. I am certain there are at least a couple sock puppets posting here too. It us funny that as soon as Steem shot up coin market cap all the other bag holders feel the need to tear it down to prop up whatever they are bag holding. Very sad indeed.

I've read all 42 pages of the white paper. The whole design is convoluted. It's abundantly clear the dev team does not understand the K.I.S.S principal at all. Good luck to them getting merchants to accept Steem dollars, and getting traders to prop up the Steem dollar market for a chance at a "liquidity" bonus. Funny that one person who admitted trying to game that system for the 1200 hourly bonus ended up losing 20k tokens. https://steemit.com/steem/@blakemiles84/two-users-are-gaming-the-liquidity-reward-system-and-earning-1200-steem-per-hour
Rest assured that I will be checking into steemit every now and then to upvote here and there. Might as well milk this cash cow as long as possible until it's lead to slaughter.

[smooth]

Am I right in thinking that the steem currnecy was pre-mined and in the hands of the owner of Steemit?

So when they talk about Steem's market cap are they including the 60% (or whatever it is) that he owns?

There was a discussion about that on the coinmarketcap thread. Some or all of the steemit coins are excluded from cmc's calculation similar to how the calculation is done for ripple.

Well, this has turned into quite the anti-Steem circle jerk. It is clear some of you have not read the white paper, as you are wrong/confused about several things. Yet, I have wasted enough time with trolls already. I am certain there are at least a couple sock puppets posting here too. It us funny that as soon as Steem shot up coin market cap all the other bag holders feel the need to tear it down to prop up whatever they are bag holding. Very sad indeed.

Are you new around here?

[ElitistCA]

Steemit plaform is for me interesting only as a social experiment. The community forming there is pure utopia. You have society of people dependant on mathematical system and feelings of other members, that together reward each participant of community. It is quite crazy actually. Everyone who will play by rules and will be supportive of system has higher chance to be rewarded. Dissent will be left for dead. I really wanna see where this will lead.