Steemit how can this thing be workable long term?

[AlexGR]

Someone wants to try out the spam-resistance / bloat-resistance of the system with posts and comments like these: https://steemit.com/spam/@steemlove/asrhn-bloat-test

Hmmmm....

[generalizethis]

 

Someone wants to try out the spam-resistance / bloat-resistance of the system with posts and comments like these: https://steemit.com/spam/@steemlove/asrhn-bloat-test

Hmmmm....

What's sad is that I thought it was a bad attempt at stream of consciousness and replied with critical suggestions.

[iamnotback]

So, I gather that if I make an up vote, but the curation reward ends up being worth less than the equivalent of .001 Steem, then it is rounded down and I don't get rewarded at all. What is the motivation then to up vote something that I like but hasn't received much attention or a whale vote? I guess giving the person a penny's worth is the only reward then?

If you upvote before a whale, you get much more than upvoting after a whale. In general, upvoting before other voters (whale or not) is worth relatively more and after less. I got hardly anything for upvoting the $30K makeup lesson because I did it late even though my vote added thousands of dollars to the reward.

Afair, the white paper doesn't mention this. Where did you get that information?

[Arrakeen]

Thank you for helping set the record straight with your ninja edit.

Dan, perhaps you might want to read my edits again, to be sure you still agree they are accurate.

I see you failed to note the words "may be" and "i can not confirm if this is real or fake" that is in what you quoted before any edit was made. Disingenuous is your desperate trolling tactic.


Edit: there is some more discussion at the Bitshares forum:

So it looks like the STEEM hack might be worse than thought. The site has been read-only all morning and has been completely down for the last hour. Last I read regarding the hack was from @ash about 8 hours ago saying that the attacker is continuing to milk accounts.

Since Steemit is obviously down right now, I figured I'd bring the discussion over here. Anyone have a clue what the hell's going on?

Their centralized wallet got hacked after all this advertisement of advantages of decentralized blockchain. LMAO!

The principal risk remains, however. If someone manages to sneak some JavaScript code into the site, then your keys will be compromised.

This last comment is true that if you are using a website wallet, you really are using a centralized wallet regardless if the private key is only stored on a paper wallet.

Also I am LMAO that Streemit is apparently using PHP server-side, the same insecure language Mark Karpeles used for Mt. Gox.

And more people are starting to realize this is a corporate controlled block chain:

Steemit needs more decentralisation and open communication. At this point it is basically a centralized service that uses a blockchain to attract people in this space by pretending to be decentralized.

As soon as steemit.com is down, nobody knows whats going on. The steemit organization still has full control over the blockchain, as we saw yesterday they can simply do a hardfork without asking anybody.

Steemit.com is not decentralised. It is only a gateway GUI to the Steem protocol. You can open your own gateway competing with Steemit. Right now the only alternative is using the command line to interact with the protocol. But normal users would hate to interact with the command line. Also it is nice for new users to get a gift of a few SP when using Steemit.com for signing up.

In the future I guess some people will fork Steemit and customize their own thing.

The block chain isn't necessarily decentralized either, because it is DPoS. At least the checkpoints have to be centralized.

Glad to see not all of us have the wool pulled over our eyes here...still can't believe all the hype this has been getting, it's ridiculous.  But, you know what they say...the harder they fall...(users whom invested, obviously...not the 'devs' who make off like bandits)

[smooth]

Im starting to think on steemit the whales just vote for each other

I pretty much never vote for other whales. Most of the other whales do the same. You don't know what you are talking about.

my post gets 20 votes $0.017

Okay, join the club. There are thousands to tens of thousands of posts that don't get a lot of votes every day. That's not a conspiracy or whales voting for each other, it is just reality (and the long tail). Pick an average video on youtube and it probably has 100 views or so, not a billion.

Promote yourself and your work effectively and get popular.

So, I gather that if I make an up vote, but the curation reward ends up being worth less than the equivalent of .001 Steem, then it is rounded down and I don't get rewarded at all. What is the motivation then to up vote something that I like but hasn't received much attention or a whale vote? I guess giving the person a penny's worth is the only reward then?

If you upvote before a whale, you get much more than upvoting after a whale. In general, upvoting before other voters (whale or not) is worth relatively more and after less. I got hardly anything for upvoting the $30K makeup lesson because I did it late even though my vote added thousands of dollars to the reward.

Afair, the white paper doesn't mention this. Where did you get that information?

Well like I said before the only real spec is the code at this point, especially when it comes to specifics of payouts, etc., but there are some posts that more or less discuss the algorithm. Don't @theoretical's posts cover it? I thought you read those.

[DecentralizeEconomics]

Promote yourself and your work effectively and get popular.

Translation:

Suck up to the Larimers and expose yourself to them to get popular.

[iamnotback]

my post gets 20 votes $0.017

Okay, join the club. There are thousands to tens of thousands of posts that don't get a lot of votes every day. That's not a conspiracy or whales voting for each other, it is just reality (and the long tail). Pick an average video on youtube and it probably has 100 views or so, not a billion.

Promote yourself and your work effectively and get popular.

I agree that mathematically even if the algorithm is adjusted so that top paying blog posts only earn up to perhaps $1000 typically instead of $50,000, it will still be the case that lots of blog posts won't earn much at all. You'll still need to build up a following to earn regular income from blogging.

But the problem I see with Steem, is there is no way to build up a sub-community. And the rewards and ranking structure don't even provide for it.

So there is currently no way to invest in making your own sub-community within Steem. You either shoot for the groupthink popular memes or leave.

[AlexGR]

Blogging is one way to make money. There is also comments, voting, etc.

Speaking of voting, you have ~1000 SP yet you aren't exercising voting rights:

https://steemd.com/@anonymint
Voting power   100.0000%

You can add more value to the platform by using your upvotes/downvotes where you think it matters, and also add more money and power to your wallet by doing so.

You might think it's pointless due to whales, but a 2-3-5c vote is a "whale" compared to a new entry whose vote is worth near zero - and thus can affect content ranking.

[iamnotback]

Other than deluded n00bs, who is long-term investing in Steem?

Could someone give me some explanation as to why anyone would convert BTC to STEEM POWER? (not STEEM which is debased 92.5% to 100% yearly)

...I have since done more in depth analysis of the math of Steem variables and to me it looks very unattractive for long-term investors to buy STEEM POWER.

It is not yet clear how investors would be rewarded by fast transfers of STEEM between content creators. There is no mechanism to transfer value to the investors, except I guess if demand for STEEM becomes so very great then the ratio of SP to STEEM will drop much below 9, then the SP holders would be earning a compounding interest rate per the recent math I showed. But we are talking about needing $10 billions of transactional demand yearly for STEEM within a few years. There is no mechanism in the Steem protocol to scale back rewards on blogging other than to decrease the price and shrink the market capitalization. So if the rate of transaction growth can't keep up, then the price must drop.

That is a very bad deal for long-term investors. Far too risky. It is a fatal error. Not to mention that the Larimers Incorporated have taken too big of a share of the pie.

More discussion of this point over at other thread.

[smooth]

Could someone give me some explanation as to why anyone would convert BTC to STEEM POWER? (not STEEM which is debased 92.5% to 100% yearly)

arhag's (currently #1 ranked) post summarizes some of the thinking, and also I'd suggest my comment there for a bit of elaboration. In essence Steem Power is a prepaid subscription to network access. By stocking up on Steem Power now you are speculating that access to the network will be worth more to more people in the future, who will then be clamoring to buy tiny slices of your Steem Power to get in or to maintain their access. Obviously, that is a very risky bet (all cryptos are, including Bitcoin).

https://steemit.com/steem/@arhag/where-does-the-money-come-from-a-look-into-the-economics-of-steem

[criptix]

Could someone give me some explanation as to why anyone would convert BTC to STEEM POWER? (not STEEM which is debased 92.5% to 100% yearly)

arhag's (currently #1 ranked) post summarizes some of the thinking, and also I'd suggest my comment there for a bit of elaboration. In essence Steem Power is a prepaid subscription to network access. By stocking up on Steem Power now you are speculating that access to the network will be worth more to more people in the future, who will then be clamoring to buy tiny slices of your Steem Power to get in or to maintain their access. Obviously, that is a very risky bet (all cryptos are, including Bitcoin).

https://steemit.com/steem/@arhag/where-does-the-money-come-from-a-look-into-the-economics-of-steem

You are basically going long for 2 years... in a crypto currency.

Seems extremely stupid to me.

[smooth]

Could someone give me some explanation as to why anyone would convert BTC to STEEM POWER? (not STEEM which is debased 92.5% to 100% yearly)

arhag's (currently #1 ranked) post summarizes some of the thinking, and also I'd suggest my comment there for a bit of elaboration. In essence Steem Power is a prepaid subscription to network access. By stocking up on Steem Power now you are speculating that access to the network will be worth more to more people in the future, who will then be clamoring to buy tiny slices of your Steem Power to get in or to maintain their access. Obviously, that is a very risky bet (all cryptos are, including Bitcoin).

https://steemit.com/steem/@arhag/where-does-the-money-come-from-a-look-into-the-economics-of-steem

You are basically going long for 2 years... in a crypto currency.

Seems extremely stupid to me.

Average of one year, assuming you start liquidating right away, but still, I agree, it is a very risky bet.

[iamnotback]

Could someone give me some explanation as to why anyone would convert BTC to STEEM POWER? (not STEEM which is debased 92.5% to 100% yearly)

arhag's (currently #1 ranked) post summarizes some of the thinking, and also I'd suggest my comment there for a bit of elaboration. In essence Steem Power is a prepaid subscription to network access. By stocking up on Steem Power now you are speculating that access to the network will be worth more to more people in the future, who will then be clamoring to buy tiny slices of your Steem Power to get in or to maintain their access. Obviously, that is a very risky bet (all cryptos are, including Bitcoin).

https://steemit.com/steem/@arhag/where-does-the-money-come-from-a-look-into-the-economics-of-steem

You are basically going long for 2 years... in a crypto currency.

Seems extremely stupid to me.

Average of one year, assuming you start liquidating right away, but still, I agree, it is a very risky bet.

Price weighted average, but you wouldn't be able to decide when to sell if you started that 1 year immediately now after purchasing. You'd be pre-deciding to sell early (or late).

I think crypto speculators are going to much more interested in a competitor which fixes this.

[criptix]

Could someone give me some explanation as to why anyone would convert BTC to STEEM POWER? (not STEEM which is debased 92.5% to 100% yearly)

arhag's (currently #1 ranked) post summarizes some of the thinking, and also I'd suggest my comment there for a bit of elaboration. In essence Steem Power is a prepaid subscription to network access. By stocking up on Steem Power now you are speculating that access to the network will be worth more to more people in the future, who will then be clamoring to buy tiny slices of your Steem Power to get in or to maintain their access. Obviously, that is a very risky bet (all cryptos are, including Bitcoin).

https://steemit.com/steem/@arhag/where-does-the-money-come-from-a-look-into-the-economics-of-steem

You are basically going long for 2 years... in a crypto currency.

Seems extremely stupid to me.

Average of one year, assuming you start liquidating right away, but still, I agree, it is a very risky bet.

Price weighted average, but you wouldn't be able to decide when to sell. You'd be pre-deciding to sell early (or late).

I just wanted to write that. ^^"
But i guess smooth was saying that indirectly too with the very risky part.

[smooth]

@iamnotback: As you pointed out earlier, short term speculation is still viable by just holding liquid STEEM. It is the mid-term of for example 3-18 months that is somewhat shut out by the model. I don't know how much that particularly timescale matters, but maybe it does.

But i guess smooth was saying that indirectly too with the very risky part.

Without getting too deeply into the details of what you can sell when exactly, which I don't think change the decision all that much (you would need a crystal ball to know exact timing), clearly it does not make sense to buy SP if you don't think the investment is viable beyond a year or two (or more precisely that the upside sufficiently compensates for that risk)

[generalizethis]

Could someone give me some explanation as to why anyone would convert BTC to STEEM POWER? (not STEEM which is debased 92.5% to 100% yearly)

arhag's (currently #1 ranked) post summarizes some of the thinking, and also I'd suggest my comment there for a bit of elaboration. In essence Steem Power is a prepaid subscription to network access. By stocking up on Steem Power now you are speculating that access to the network will be worth more to more people in the future, who will then be clamoring to buy tiny slices of your Steem Power to get in or to maintain their access. Obviously, that is a very risky bet (all cryptos are, including Bitcoin).

https://steemit.com/steem/@arhag/where-does-the-money-come-from-a-look-into-the-economics-of-steem

You are basically going long for 2 years... in a crypto currency.

Seems extremely stupid to me.

Average of one year, assuming you start liquidating right away, but still, I agree, it is a very risky bet.

Price weighted average, but you wouldn't be able to decide when to sell. You'd be pre-deciding to sell early (or late).

You can sell your account too, probably at a reduced rate (though it would depend on your standing in the community).

@smooth, how long do curator's get payment on posts? Just want to know if that figures into the analysis.

[iamnotback]

Could someone give me some explanation as to why anyone would convert BTC to STEEM POWER? (not STEEM which is debased 92.5% to 100% yearly)

arhag's (currently #1 ranked) post summarizes some of the thinking, and also I'd suggest my comment there for a bit of elaboration. In essence Steem Power is a prepaid subscription to network access. By stocking up on Steem Power now you are speculating that access to the network will be worth more to more people in the future, who will then be clamoring to buy tiny slices of your Steem Power to get in or to maintain their access. Obviously, that is a very risky bet (all cryptos are, including Bitcoin).

https://steemit.com/steem/@arhag/where-does-the-money-come-from-a-look-into-the-economics-of-steem

Thanks for sharing that. His calculation is wrong on the 5% tax for STEEM POWER. I already showed it is 15 - 21%!

Users might be willing to pay to gamble, but you can't charge more than the competition can sell the same service for. Thus the cost will be reduced by competition to the cost of securing the blockchain (since that is the only cost that applies to the rate limit), which in DPoS is very small and currently targeted to be 0.750% of the market capitalization per year. That is not enough to counteract the massive debasement of SP.

The economics of Steem are highly flawed.

[bones261]

From my understanding, when you start powering down, you still have Vests, so you still have a share the 9:1 steam going into the vesting pool. The amount of Steem that you get each week should increase. In the end, you are going to get much more Steem than what you put in. You can hope the market does not plummet faster than the slow increase in the amount of coins that you receive each week.

[iamnotback]

Could someone give me some explanation as to why anyone would convert BTC to STEEM POWER? (not STEEM which is debased 92.5% to 100% yearly)

arhag's (currently #1 ranked) post summarizes some of the thinking, and also I'd suggest my comment there for a bit of elaboration. In essence Steem Power is a prepaid subscription to network access. By stocking up on Steem Power now you are speculating that access to the network will be worth more to more people in the future, who will then be clamoring to buy tiny slices of your Steem Power to get in or to maintain their access. Obviously, that is a very risky bet (all cryptos are, including Bitcoin).

https://steemit.com/steem/@arhag/where-does-the-money-come-from-a-look-into-the-economics-of-steem

You are basically going long for 2 years... in a crypto currency.

Seems extremely stupid to me.

Average of one year, assuming you start liquidating right away, but still, I agree, it is a very risky bet.

Price weighted average, but you wouldn't be able to decide when to sell. You'd be pre-deciding to sell early (or late).

You can sell your account too, probably at a reduced rate (though it would depend on your standing in the community).

@smooth, how long do curator's get payment on posts? Just want to know if that figures into the analysis.

I'd love to see a market for selling accounts develop. But since you can't transfer SP, then it means you really can't sell them in a secure way. So no such liquid market will develop. You basically have to trust someone to let them have your account and change the password. Someone has to go first and take all the risk. I suppose you could do it with trusted escrow.

Curation income is not worth anyone's time at only 3.875% of their holdings per year.

Edit: Thinking more about this. The price paid to cash out early will be a function of the volatility. We know this from the pricing of futures markets. The higher the volatility, the lower the price the seller will receive. Also there will need to be some time-weighted factor of blackswan computed by the buyer. The seller will pay in advance for 1 year of risk in terms of lower selling price.

[bones261]

I'd love to see a market for selling accounts develop. But since you can't transfer SP, then it means you really can't sell them in a secure way. So no such liquid market will develop. You basically have to trust someone to let them have your account and change the password. Someone has to go first and take all the risk.

Curation income is not worth anyone's time at only 3.875% of their holdings per year.

That's what using a trusted escrow is for. Of course, the person doing the escrow could go rogue and take everything from both parties.  

Edit:There still seems to be an option to recover a stolen account. So, only a fool would buy an account. The seller could initiate this process after collecting the funds.