[AMC]-The Official Active Mining Cooperative Discussion

[dhenson]

As a side note, anyone can sell anyone any amount of shares, of any asset, at any price, on BitFunder: https://bitfunder.com/transfer

I realize that it's "possible".  It just was my understanding that Ken had already stated how the rest of the shares were to be sold. Any deviation from the plan will put us right back where we were 2 weeks ago (or was it last week) when nobody trusted Ken and share price manipulation was putting everyone on edge.

So, Ken if you don't mind sharing... what was with the 1 mill share move today?

It is my hope that everything is on the up and up from here on out.

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[kslaughter]

It was my assumption that there weren't any 'off the books' trades.  If all trades don't go through the market then the spot price is pointless.  Why would someone purchase shares for .00083 on bitfunder if they can make a deal on the side with Ken. If this is truly going on, that's bullshit.

That being said, I'm not convinced that's what is going on.  If it was, then why did the shares end back up in Ken's account.

I personally hold ~46k shares so I have more than a small interest in making sure that this company is being run in a straightforward and honest manor.  I don't think it's too much to ask for an explanation from Ken.

You are right and an explanation is in order.  These shares are AMC's and are in a different account for accounting and dividend purposes.  Should AMC wish to sale these shares they are moved to AMC's main account.  I also believe that the spot price is very important and is an indication of what price the shares should be sold at to get the most value for AMC and its shareholders.  Should AMC get an investor which wants a large block of shares we could use the transfer function to move those shares after receiving the funds, these funds could be something other than bitcoins.  The price for these shares would depend on a number of factors, the main one which would be, would this transaction increase shareholder value.  This type of transaction is an advantage for AMC and its investors as there is no fee charged by bitfunder at this time for these transfers.  I always want to maximize AMC's shareholder value and I am constantly looking for ways to do that.  The spot price is the best indication of the current shareholder value and I am striving to increase that at all times.

[kslaughter]

As a side note, anyone can sell anyone any amount of shares, of any asset, at any price, on BitFunder: https://bitfunder.com/transfer

I realize that it's "possible".  It just was my understanding that Ken had already stated how the rest of the shares were to be sold. Any deviation from the plan will put us right back where we were 2 weeks ago (or was it last week) when nobody trusted Ken and share price manipulation was putting everyone on edge.

So, Ken if you don't mind sharing... what was with the 1 mill share move today?

It is my hope that everything is on the up and up from here on out.

This was just a little test to see how the market reacted to a few shares (~150,000) being sold.  We are starting to spin up Avalon boards to get ready for the 20,000 chips we have on order.  In the next few weeks there may be a need for increased capital.  I am working hard to increase the price of AMC's shares and get the most value from the shares that AMC still holds.

[Vbs]

(...) Should AMC get an investor which wants a large block of shares we could use the transfer function to move those shares after receiving the funds, these funds could be something other than bitcoins.  The price for these shares would depend on a number of factors, the main one which would be, would this transaction increase shareholder value.  This type of transaction is an advantage for AMC and its investors as there is no fee charged by bitfunder at this time for these transfers. (...)

+1! Large investors are more than welcome!

[funkymunky]

Thank you

Next steps:

Seeing next order status change on Avalon ticket.
Receiving promised report in next few days.
Feedback on status of NDA agreement.

Also wondering what it will take for 'institutional' investment to occur, if it hasn't happened already.

Sorry for my ignorance, what do you mean by this?

Where other funds/fund of funds, or other share issues, diversify there portfolio by buying into other relevant issues/companies. ASICMINER is held relatively widely, amongst some of those other share issues you see on Bitfunder, for example.

This business is more incestuous, than you may realise, but its all good.

[hl5460]

Here is the ~Second 24 hours, not as lucky as the first 24.

Picture is dead....

[hf]

Really ?

[canuck]

Here is the ~Second 24 hours, not as lucky as the first 24.

Picture is dead....

I can see it just fine.

[kslaughter]

Here is the ~Second 24 hours, not as lucky as the first 24.

Picture is dead....

I can see it just fine.

It is a png file.  Should work in any browser.

[LorenzoMoney]

The best way to buy shares of AMC is through bitfunder.com
The price is set based upon supply and demand as determined by the bids and asking prices of people who use Bitfunder.

Hello,
Is it possible to buy shares directly to AMC ?

If not, when will be the next IPO for the next 15,000,000 shares ?

For the next 15,000,000 shares, the price will be set by the price value on the bitfunder market ?

Thank you

[kslaughter]

Current Earnings Report:

[Vbs]

The best way to buy shares of AMC is through bitfunder.com
The price is set based upon supply and demand as determined by the bids and asking prices of people who use Bitfunder.

Hello,
Is it possible to buy shares directly to AMC ?

(...)

Thank you

Actually, that's a very good question. There should be a way to buy shares directly from Ken.

Imagine he posts a batch at 0.0008 and gets immediately undercut at prices like 0.000799, etc, from flippers. Even if cheaper, I don't want to buy from them, I want to buy from Ken.

AMC doesn't see a satoshi from shares bought from flippers, but any shares bought from Ken is a direct AMC investment.

In the end, any shareholder is getting more bang for their BTC by buying shares directly from Ken, as that translates to AMC growth, while buying from flippers does not.

[LorenzoMoney]

It would be a big mistake for Ken, or anyone who owns a company to sell shares outside of an exchange because it would undermine confidence in that exchange.  Undermine the exchange and you undermine the confidence of investors.  In addition, although flippers might get in, flippers actually benefit AMC.

Here is why: Let's say the price of AMC goes to 0.00085
And let's say that AMC decides in need more capital to buy more mining equipment, or pay for a more secure facility from which to operate the miners, and AMC puts 1,000,000 shares on the market for less than market price, let's say at 0.00005. That would undermine flippers, but it would also anger existing large investors. It would also cause a drop in confidence in anyone who might want to hold on to AMC stock for the long term, because none of us would have confidence that the price would hold.  Sure, some of the bigger investors have faith that Ken will get all the machines he ordered and will get them all up and running and will generate returns, but manipulate the price of the stock and some of us will lose confidence and might just dump our shares and that would be damaging to overall public confidence in AMC as a trustworthy, stable company.

Let's AMC needs more capital and releases 1,000,000 shares at market price. Well, some flippers could come in and offer their shares as at a lower price. They would make profit as their shares sold, but after the flippers sold out what they have, the shares AMC put on the market would sell, and would be sold at a higher price, generating more income for AMC.

The price of shares of any stock is determined by the market. If someone who does not already hold shares were for whatever reason sold shares at below market price outside of the exchange, it would cause great concern to those large share holders who are currently believe in AMC for the long haul but who would feel undermined by such a sale outside of the exchange.

The best way to buy shares of AMC is through bitfunder.com
The price is set based upon supply and demand as determined by the bids and asking prices of people who use Bitfunder.

Hello,
Is it possible to buy shares directly to AMC ?

(...)

Thank you

Actually, that's a very good question. There should be a way to buy shares directly from Ken.

Imagine he posts a batch at 0.0008 and gets immediately undercut at prices like 0.000799, etc, from flippers. Even if cheaper, I don't want to buy from them, I want to buy from Ken.

AMC doesn't see a satoshi from shares bought from flippers, but any shares bought from Ken is a direct AMC investment.

In the end, any shareholder is getting more bang for their BTC by buying shares directly from Ken, as that translates to AMC growth, while buying from flippers does not.

[freedomno1]

It would be a big mistake for Ken, or anyone who owns a company to sell shares outside of an exchange because it would undermine confidence in that exchange.  Undermine the exchange and you undermine the confidence of investors.  In addition, although flippers might get in, flippers actually benefit AMC.

Here is why: Let's say the price of AMC goes to 0.00085
And let's say that AMC decides in need more capital to buy more mining equipment, or pay for a more secure facility from which to operate the miners, and AMC puts 1,000,000 shares on the market for less than market price, let's say at 0.00005. That would undermine flippers, but it would also anger existing large investors. It would also cause a drop in confidence in anyone who might want to hold on to AMC stock for the long term, because none of us would have confidence that the price would hold.  Sure, some of the bigger investors have faith that Ken will get all the machines he ordered and will get them all up and running and will generate returns, but manipulate the price of the stock and some of us will lose confidence and might just dump our shares and that would be damaging to overall public confidence in AMC as a trustworthy, stable company.

Let's AMC needs more capital and releases 1,000,000 shares at market price. Well, some flippers could come in and offer their shares as at a lower price. They would make profit as their shares sold, but after the flippers sold out what they have, the shares AMC put on the market would sell, and would be sold at a higher price, generating more income for AMC.

The price of shares of any stock is determined by the market. If someone who does not already hold shares were for whatever reason sold shares at below market price outside of the exchange, it would cause great concern to those large share holders who are currently believe in AMC for the long haul but who would feel undermined by such a sale outside of the exchange.

The best way to buy shares of AMC is through bitfunder.com
The price is set based upon supply and demand as determined by the bids and asking prices of people who use Bitfunder.

Hello,
Is it possible to buy shares directly to AMC ?

(...)

Thank you

Actually, that's a very good question. There should be a way to buy shares directly from Ken.

Imagine he posts a batch at 0.0008 and gets immediately undercut at prices like 0.000799, etc, from flippers. Even if cheaper, I don't want to buy from them, I want to buy from Ken.

AMC doesn't see a satoshi from shares bought from flippers, but any shares bought from Ken is a direct AMC investment.

In the end, any shareholder is getting more bang for their BTC by buying shares directly from Ken, as that translates to AMC growth, while buying from flippers does not.

Depends on the person as well
ASIC does fine with direct shares

[dhenson]

Actually, that's a very good question. There should be a way to buy shares directly from Ken.

Imagine he posts a batch at 0.0008 and gets immediately undercut at prices like 0.000799, etc, from flippers. Even if cheaper, I don't want to buy from them, I want to buy from Ken.

AMC doesn't see a satoshi from shares bought from flippers, but any shares bought from Ken is a direct AMC investment.

In the end, any shareholder is getting more bang for their BTC by buying shares directly from Ken, as that translates to AMC growth, while buying from flippers does not.

I've said this before, VBS I appreciate your enthusiasm, but unfortunately, I'm afraid you aren't seeing the issue clearly.

All shares should be sold through the exchange, please stop encouraging outside sales (this is basic, I really don't get why this is an issue).  If someone wants to buy $80,000 worth of shares, let all share holders benefit from that purchase.  All share holders are speculating on future value, even you.  If Ken decided to sell 'off-exchange' for cheaper, then nobody would buy from the exchange until the price equalized (driving the spot price down).

Ken has already ran afoul of investor sentiment, lets not make it 500 times worse by selling off-exchange.

Also, to clear up one misconception.  I've previously stated that it is crazy that the remaining 15mil unsold shares are being paid dividends.  I accept it however as it was in the original write up.  However, you are wrong in thinking that the dividends paid to these shares will directly go back into buying more equipment.  This is a falicy that you seem to have convinced yourself of.  The actual verbiage is:

Any remaining shares not included in the
IPO are owned/maintained/controlled by AMC. These shares will be used at the issuers discretion
for any uses deemed fit. These uses are not limited to, but may include employment.

As you can see, Ken can use those funds for whatever he wants.

[lewicki]

All shares should be sold through the exchange, please stop encouraging outside sales (this is basic, I really don't get why this is an issue).  If someone wants to buy $80,000 worth of shares, let all share holders benefit from that purchase.  All share holders are speculating on future value, even you.  If Ken decided to sell 'off-exchange' for cheaper, then nobody would buy from the exchange until the price equalized (driving the spot price down).

It would be a big mistake for Ken, or anyone who owns a company to sell shares outside of an exchange because it would undermine confidence in that exchange.  Undermine the exchange and you undermine the confidence of investors.  In addition, although flippers might get in, flippers actually benefit AMC.

Here is why: Let's say the price of AMC goes to 0.00085
And let's say that AMC decides in need more capital to buy more mining equipment, or pay for a more secure facility from which to operate the miners, and AMC puts 1,000,000 shares on the market for less than market price, let's say at 0.00005. That would undermine flippers, but it would also anger existing large investors.]

You are both under the assumption that AMC would sell shares at a loss relative to the current price. The whole reason why a buyer and an issuer would collude to exchange shares/BTC would be at a minimum these reasons:

Buyer: No liquidity for the buyer.
Issuer: Needs to raise funds.

Given these variables, it would be safe to assume that:
the buyer, were he to invest a large amount of money into the company, he would end up paying an enormous markup as his buys increase the price.
the issuer, needs money but realizes that the buyer is in a predicament, and at the same time does not want to debase his share value.

Therefore it would be reasonable to expect that AMC would offer the Shares at a markup ABOVE the current price depending on how much the buyer wanted to invest.

P.S. There is precedent however for issuing shares below current value with the caveat that you are not allowed to sell them before a given date (only in a last ditch effort to raise money for the company). But this isn't NASDAQ, is it? In an unregulated market that would be extremely risky.

I've previously stated that it is crazy that the remaining 15mil unsold shares are being paid dividends.  I accept it however as it was in the original write up.  However, you are wrong in thinking that the dividends paid to these shares will directly go back into buying more equipment.  This is a falicy that you seem to have convinced yourself of.  The actual verbiage is:

Any remaining shares not included in the
IPO are owned/maintained/controlled by AMC. These shares will be used at the issuers discretion
for any uses deemed fit. These uses are not limited to, but may include employment.

As you can see, Ken can use those funds for whatever he wants.

The contract says that AMC can use them as they see fit, that does not mean that he won't. You're creating a fallacy in order to create an argument. There is no fallacy save yours. Your last sentence contradicts what you said in the previous paragraph

[dhenson]

I'm done talking to the wall.

Go AMC!

Better? lol

[Vbs]

I'll try to better explain my position then.

First, lets get something straight: I'm talking about selling shares through BitFunder, not outside it. BitFunder supports sending shares between accounts.

This issue is very clear to me. If you are an investor in AMC you want the money to go to AMC!

You can't have an asset issuer compete in a secondary market. You need new shares to be sold in a primary market. Otherwise, every long-term shareholder gets screwed!

For example, lets say Ken needs to sell 1,000,000 shares now for the (imminent) purchase of materials to build Avalon boards/ new order of chips/ whatever:

• He puts them to sell on BitFunder at 0.0008.
• Next minute, he is immediately undercut at 10,000@0.00079999 by someone, and the other minute at 5,000@0.00079998 by another guy, etc.
• This keeps going and after a week he has sold nothing, while the undercutters were steadily selling their shares.
• Who do you think gets screwed by not getting the necessary BTC in time for buying the actual hardware? Hint: not the flippers!

Competing in a secondary market means that Ken will be forced to sell at 0.0005 if he gets constantly undercut and needs the BTC to move AMC forward, as that's the only price he's guaranteed no undercutting. Do you want that to happen again???

The more shares you own of AMC (long-term investment) the more you'll be interested that AMC sells its shares when it needs to, and the more you'll want to buy from Ken only! Every income BTC to AMC is directly increasing the value of ALL shares, while sales from flippers mean nothing to increase AMC value.

[Vbs]

(...)

Also, to clear up one misconception.  I've previously stated that it is crazy that the remaining 15mil unsold shares are being paid dividends.  I accept it however as it was in the original write up.  However, you are wrong in thinking that the dividends paid to these shares will directly go back into buying more equipment.  This is a falicy that you seem to have convinced yourself of.  The actual verbiage is:

Any remaining shares not included in the
IPO are owned/maintained/controlled by AMC. These shares will be used at the issuers discretion
for any uses deemed fit. These uses are not limited to, but may include employment.

As you can see, Ken can use those funds for whatever he wants.

Nope, that paragraph is about the remaining 60M shares when AMC goes into being a 100M share asset. Read the contract better.

Dividends paid on unissued shares after the early-adopter phase will be retained by AMC and added to AMC's growth and expansion fund above until the shares are issued.

[ThickAsThieves]

I'll try to better explain my position then.

First, lets get something straight: I'm talking about selling shares through BitFunder, not outside it. BitFunder supports sending shares between accounts.

This issue is very clear to me. If you are an investor in AMC you want the money to go to AMC!

You can't have an asset issuer compete in a secondary market. You need new shares to be sold in a primary market. Otherwise, every long-term shareholder gets screwed!

For example, lets say Ken needs to sell 1,000,000 shares now for the (imminent) purchase of materials to build Avalon boards/ new order of chips/ whatever:

• He puts them to sell on BitFunder at 0.0008.
• Next minute, he is immediately undercut at 10,000@0.00079999 by someone, and the other minute at 5,000@0.00079998 by another guy, etc.
• This keeps going and after a week he has sold nothing, while the undercutters were steadily selling their shares.
• Who do you think gets screwed by not getting the necessary BTC in time for buying the actual hardware? Hint: not the flippers!

Competing in a secondary market means that Ken will be forced to sell at 0.0005 if he gets constantly undercut and needs the BTC to move AMC forward, as that's the only price he's guaranteed no undercutting. Do you want that to happen again???

The more shares you own of AMC (long-term investment) the more you'll be interested that AMC sells its shares when it needs to, and the more you'll want to buy from Ken only! Every income BTC to AMC is directly increasing the value of ALL shares, while sales from flippers mean nothing to increase AMC value.

I think you might be trying to have your cake and eat it too. You want to maintain share price, but want the money to only go to AMC. The problem with this is that it only seems like this would protect share price, the dilution would still be real the moment buyers feel the need to start selling. Really, the time for private sales is before an IPO, not after it. If AMC wants people to buy his shares, he must simply offer them at a price the market will pay.