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Question: Closing BTC Price June 28:
$0 - 5 (3.4%)
<$7,000 - 4 (2.7%)
$7,000-$7,499 - 0 (0%)
$7,500-$7,999 - 0 (0%)
$8,000-$8,499 - 1 (0.7%)
$8,500-$8,999 - 3 (2%)
$9,000-$9,499 - 4 (2.7%)
$9,500-$9,999 - 26 (17.6%)
$10,000-$10,499 - 23 (15.5%)
$10,500-10,999 - 12 (8.1%)
$11,000-$11,499 - 14 (9.5%)
$11,500-$12,000 - 13 (8.8%)
>$12,000 - 32 (21.6%)
>$20,000 - 11 (7.4%)
Total Voters: 148

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Author Topic: Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion  (Read 21241926 times)
This is a self-moderated topic. If you do not want to be moderated by the person who started this topic, create a new topic. (66 posts by 16 users deleted.)
Torque
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May 01, 2018, 11:32:45 AM


Ah but you see, after a generation or two that problem will solve itself.

Snowflakes don't know how to be successful and make money. They only know how to run up debt (including student loan debt). So eventually their progeny won't even be able to afford those high brow schools anymore, lol.
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May 01, 2018, 11:34:17 AM

Of course there is absolutely no investment that is 100% risk free, but real estate is "safe enough".

Real estate as an investment is ok if:

1. You own it outright, or are actively working to own it outright

2. It pays you back (e.g., renter or leaser income)

3. It has some appreciation

Otherwise, it definitely isn't an "asset" unless it meets those criteria. It is a liability. I cringe when I hear people talk about their home as an "asset", especially when it's not paid off and they have zero intention of ever selling it.

When you have to pay property taxes can you ever really say "You own it outright"?
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May 01, 2018, 11:36:04 AM

Happy May Day!!!



Workers Of The World Unite!

Happy May Day.

Today I lit a candle in front of my Karl Marx statue and repeated the planks of the Communist Manifesto...again.

So many socialist holidays...so few candles...
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May 01, 2018, 11:38:10 AM

When you have to pay property taxes can you ever really say "You own it outright"?

No not really. But depending on where you live there are ways to reduce it to an acceptable level.
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May 01, 2018, 11:40:26 AM

Of course there is absolutely no investment that is 100% risk free, but real estate is "safe enough".

Real estate as an investment is ok if:

1. You own it outright, or are actively working to own it outright

2. It pays you back (e.g., renter or leaser income)

3. It has some appreciation

Otherwise, it definitely isn't an "asset" unless it meets those criteria. It is a liability. I cringe when I hear people talk about their home as an "asset", especially when it's not paid off and they have zero intention of ever selling it.

Mostly agree. But:

1- If you can get some tax deductions for deferring payments that compensates the interest it is ok too. Other than that, yep, just pay it fully outright if you can.

2- If you can earn some reasonable ROI from it it can be considered an investment, appreciation/deprecciation of the underlining asset should be taken into consideration too for the calculation of the ROI.

3- See point 2.

A home is an asset because it has the ROI of not having to spend in renting. I don't know about other countries, but here you can basically pay your home for what would otherwise be 20-25 years of renting. You would spend the same... but you would end up fully owning it instead of having nothing. I know in some countries (like US) job mobility is so extreme that you can't attach to fixed location for more than a few years.... YMMV

Also, real estate is some market where your research / bargain hunting skills can get your pretty good deals where you just hit a great ROI at the exact moment of purchase. It is not unheard being able to buy at half market price if you are good at it and spend enough time/research until the opportunity crosses your path -and have the funds available to take the opportunity right away-.

Oh, and you can always do a "reverse mortgage" when you are in your late years to fully milk the "home" asset.
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May 01, 2018, 11:43:50 AM

Of course there is absolutely no investment that is 100% risk free, but real estate is "safe enough".

Real estate as an investment is ok if:

1. You own it outright, or are actively working to own it outright

2. It pays you back (e.g., renter or leaser income)

3. It has some appreciation

Otherwise, it definitely isn't an "asset" unless it meets those criteria. It is a liability. I cringe when I hear people talk about their home as an "asset", especially when it's not paid off and they have zero intention of ever selling it.

Real Estate sucks.

1) Taxes are way too high. They eat your income.
2) Maintenance costs are usually high unless its a condo. Which eats your income.
3) If it is a condo type of RE, you'll probably end up with a broke-ass tenant who'll delay payments or refuse to leave the house. Lawyers... Say good bye to your profits.
4) Your asset won't get hired away instantly unless you let it go cheaper than the market price and with everyday passing you'll lose money.

Tldr; Fuck real estate.

I didn't forget to tell you about the insurance costs. I intentionally skipped it because I didn't wanna ruin your dreams further. I am such a nice guy.

I'd rather buy gold than bricks/cement. And then there is bitcoin which makes gold redundant. A man only needs one house. Owning more than one is asking for trouble.
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May 01, 2018, 11:46:31 AM
Last edit: May 01, 2018, 11:58:04 AM by Torque

A home is an asset because it has the ROI of not having to spend in renting. I don't know about other countries, but here you can basically pay your home for what would otherwise be 20-25 years of renting. You would spend the same... but you would end up fully owning it instead of having nothing. I know in some countries (like US) mobility is some extreme that you can't attach to fixed location for more than a few years.... YMMV

In some cases that's true. But for most people in the U.S., they basically end up spending 1.5X to 2X as much for the cost of their house over the life of the loan than they would have spent on rent for that same period.

And most people rarely stay in their house more than 10 years. So every time they sell, they lose on cap gain taxes. Then they start the whole debt clock over again with a brand new 30 yr mortgage with fresh new interest. So effectively, they never end up owning anything.
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May 01, 2018, 11:47:10 AM

We crossed $9000 few minutes back... why no celebrations & Vegeta? Roll Eyes

This seriously is pretty correct:

You all don't realize how powerful the Dragon Ball franchise is. They have been milking the "It's is over 9000!" thing for all it's worth. They had to rush to crash the market when it jumped to almost $20k pushing the price back down so they could repeatedly have the price go over 9000.

Some theorize that this is the sole purpose of the creation of Bitcoin.
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May 01, 2018, 11:49:56 AM

Real Estate sucks.

1) Taxes are way too high. They eat your income.
2) Maintenance costs are usually high unless its a condo. Which eats your income.
3) If it is a condo type of RE, you'll probably end up with a broke-ass tenant who'll delay payments or refuse to leave the house. Lawyers... Say good bye to your profits.
4) Your asset won't get hired away instantly unless you let it go cheaper than the market price and with everyday passing you'll lose money.

Tldr; Fuck real estate.

I didn't forget to tell you about the insurance costs. I intentionally skipped it because I didn't wanna ruin your dreams further. I am such a nice guy.

Just curious, are you saying this from experience? Were you at one time a landlord?
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May 01, 2018, 11:51:42 AM
Last edit: May 01, 2018, 12:10:17 PM by mindrust


Just curious, are you saying this from experience? Were you at one time a landlord?

Not me, but my father. He dumped his position for good and never went back to that business.

This is 2018 folks.

You gotta be mobile. Everything changes so fast now. Buying a house and waiting for it to ROI in 20 years? Ain't no-one got time for this shit.
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May 01, 2018, 12:15:50 PM

You gotta be mobile. Everything changes so fast now. Buying a house and waiting for it to ROI in 20 years? Ain't no-one got time for this shit.

If I was young and single and had to do it all over again, I'd either live out of an RV or mobile tiny home. Pay it off. Rent-to-own or buy the property it sat on.

Then once everything was all paid off, either sell the RV/tiny home for profit and build another house on the same property, or rent out / AirBnB the tiny home and build or buy another house somewhere else.

I would keep doing this until I had a completely paid off house on the property that I wanted to retire on.
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May 01, 2018, 12:23:08 PM

Of course there is absolutely no investment that is 100% risk free, but real estate is "safe enough".

Real estate as an investment is ok if:

1. You own it outright, or are actively working to own it outright

2. It pays you back (e.g., renter or leaser income)

3. It has some appreciation

Otherwise, it definitely isn't an "asset" unless it meets those criteria. It is a liability. I cringe when I hear people talk about their home as an "asset", especially when it's not paid off and they have zero intention of ever selling it.

That's simply not true and depends highly on how much equity you have in the house. In fact, not living in the house and having to sell it makes you pay a lot more capital gains taxes compared to selling a house you're actually living in (or have lived within a certain amount of years). Of course it depends on the neighborhood and location, but generally Americans have a lot of their wealth stored in their home and that's not a bad thing. It's generally much safer to live in the house that you are paying off (the benefits are greater) but renting can also be great as long as you're able to find good renters, which can be very difficult. It's still an asset if you have paid off a decent amount and don't live in an undesirable location.
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May 01, 2018, 12:25:22 PM

A home is an asset because it has the ROI of not having to spend in renting. I don't know about other countries, but here you can basically pay your home for what would otherwise be 20-25 years of renting. You would spend the same... but you would end up fully owning it instead of having nothing. I know in some countries (like US) mobility is some extreme that you can't attach to fixed location for more than a few years.... YMMV

In some cases that's true. But for most people in the U.S., they basically end up spending 1.5X to 2X as much for the cost of their house over the life of the loan than they would have spent on rent for that same period.

And most people rarely stay in their house more than 10 years. So every time they sell, they lose on cap gain taxes. Then they start the whole debt clock over again with a brand new 30 yr mortgage with fresh new interest. So effectively, they never end up owning anything.

In the US, cap gains on primary residence are exempt up to $250k ($500k for married) as long as you have lived in the house two of the last five years.
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May 01, 2018, 12:28:23 PM

When you have to pay property taxes can you ever really say "You own it outright"?

indeed

the lack of allodial title is one of the clearest indications of our serfdom
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May 01, 2018, 12:28:33 PM
Last edit: May 01, 2018, 12:53:25 PM by bitserve

Well, as I said YMMV, but many years ago when I was almost a "child" I started buying my home with a mortgage. Now I have it FULLY paid and never had to pay more than what a rent would have cost me. That is not counting appreciating which would currently mean an additional 2x 3x of the purchase price.

Interests? Around 1% which would amount in total much less than what I were able to deduct in tax payments (like 5% annually).

Couldn't be happier about that as an investment. Well, except for Bitcoin. Yeah, that has been better for sure and in a shorter investment timeframe.

P.S.: YMMV, again. #DYOR
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May 01, 2018, 12:31:50 PM

Just so everyone is clear, I'm not arguing against owning a house. I'm actually pro-home ownership. Just pay it off as fast as possible.

I'm merely saying that it's not an "asset" if a) you still have debt owed on it w/ interest, b) it doesn't pay you back, and c) you never plan to sell it. It is a liability, not an asset.

And if you sell a house every 5-10 years just to buy a new one w/ a new 30 yr mortgage. Not an asset. And you'll never own anything that way. Just "leasing" indefinitely.
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May 01, 2018, 12:36:24 PM

Happy May Day!!!



Workers Of The World Unite!

Happy May Day.

Today I lit a candle in front of my Karl Marx statue and repeated the planks of the Communist Manifesto...again.

So many socialist holidays...so few candles...


Too many red candles on red socialist day
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May 01, 2018, 12:37:08 PM

Your real-estate discussion is ruining bitcoin. Stop it! Roll Eyes This is a wall-observer thread, not a walls-creating-a-home thread!
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May 01, 2018, 12:38:28 PM

Your real-estate discussion is ruining bitcoin. Stop it! Roll Eyes This is a wall-observer thread, not a walls-creating-a-home thread!

Didn't you get the memo? Bitcoin is boring as shit right now.
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May 01, 2018, 12:45:11 PM

Somebody is having fun dumping his coins. He will regret  Wink
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