Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion

[soullyG]

Not just that. You'd try to open pandora's box. I highly doubt the devs would ever put that into a protocol update.
And even if they did at least a majority of miners would then have to move to that change.
Even attempting this would destroy bitcoin

+infinity

I can't imagine most people would agree to this, even if they did have funds in Gox - it undermines one of the core principles of Bitcoin..

[Templer]

Senator Joe Manchin  (who wants to BAN BTC) Was at the Yellen Hearing just now.

He asked Yellen of this was possible.

Yellen replied that there is no central issuer and no central bank, and it is decentralized, it is hard to regulate and the FED has no plans to do that.

source?

I'm listening the live stream:

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-02-27/yellen-testifies-senate-live-stream

thx for that!

[aminorex]

Not just that. You'd try to open pandora's box. I highly doubt the devs would ever put that into a protocol update.
And even if they did at least a majority of miners would then have to move to that change.

No miners would run the new code unless they got a cut of the coins.  That's all it would really take:  Offer 10% of the freed goxcoins as extra block rewards, and *ping* the coins are back.
The proof issue remains.  If it were directed by a court, I could see it happening.  Now *that* would be seriously dangerous to bitcoin:  An actual sovereign interference in the money supply.
We need to replace all the core devs with anonymous parties, untraceable by the court system.  Um.  That might not work out so well either.  Proof-of-Ethics protocol not yet implemented.

[Chang Hum]

There's some bloody funny public notes on those gox addresses just reading through them now!

Public Note: Hi! My name is Preet Bharara and I'm homeless Indian junkie. I'm accepting donations to buy crack for me and my ugly wife. Please help me. Thank you.

[FTWbitcoinFTW]

So let me get this straight, it only took a simple check of addresses associated with MTgox to completely undermine the credibility of the crisis plan document and show that Gox is in fact solvent.
Woah bit hard to get my head around this but that logically means that pre-announcement Gox coins should be trading at around .5 , yet are being traded for just 0.06 at the moment on Bitcoin Builder.com. 1000% profit? yes please I'm going to get over there now!!!

For me the blockchain is less susceptible to be modified or totally made up than a "PDF" from a "trusted source"

[Bronstad]

So let me get this straight, it only took a simple check of addresses associated with MTgox to completely undermine the credibility of the crisis plan document and show that Gox is in fact solvent.

Woah bit hard to get my head around this but that logically means that pre-announcement Gox coins should be trading at around .5 , yet are being traded for just 0.06 at the moment on Bitcoin Builder.com. 1000% profit? yes please I'm going to get over there now!!!

It however doesn't prove that they still have the private keys to access them. Effectively they are still lost, and won't help their solvency, if that is the case.

[magicmexican]

Goxcoin on the pump!

[Templer]

Goxcoin on the pump!

here we go 

[derpinheimer]

It's becoming more and more clear that the coins haven't been stolen, they've just lost the keys lol. Once this is confirmed, should be very bullish.

I don't think that the loss of those coins, per se, would have any effect.  

Think of the exchanges as water tanks where water represents bitcoins in the market, and the water level is the inverse price (how many BTC one can buy with one dollar).

The tanks are connected by pipes at the bottom (coin withdrawals and deposits) so the hydrostatic principle (arbitrage) keeps the water level about the same in all tanks. If one pours more water into any tank (brings more coins to the market) the level in all tanks goes up (meaning the price goes down).  The opposite happens if one takes water out of one tank (buys coins and puts them in cold storage).

If the MtGOX theft did happen, then at some point in the past, someone siphoned most of the water out of the MtGOX tank to a private barrel.  I the keys were lost, most of the water in that tank leaked out and was permanetly lost.  In either case, Mark put some bricks into the tank (hid the theft) so that people would not notice the loss, and the water level was not affected.   Then a few days ago the pipes out of that tank  were closed (withdrawals were blocked),  and the tank was disconnected and removed it from the system.   That would not affect the water level in the other tanks either.

If the theft happened, and the thief then dumped the water in other tanks (sold the coins in other markets), then there was indeed a net rise in the water level (a fall in market price); but that is past history.  

We may expect an effect only if the coins were stolen but have not been not sold yet EDIT: and are sold now.

(This analogy is imperfect because it does not model the money flows, but hopefully it is enough to argue the point.)

I am talking about a case in which the private keys have been lost, in which case 750k BTC has been taken out of the total money supply. If they have been stolen (but the keys are still known) it shouldn't have much of an affect.

If the keys are lost, it brings up an argument to fork the block chain, and change the code to manually recover the money. To a new address. A lot of people would support it. (and many would be against)... talk about polarising the Bitcoin community.

It won't work. Without the private key, how Mark could prove those are really gox's coins?

Not just that. You'd try to open pandora's box. I highly doubt the devs would ever put that into a protocol update.
And even if they did at least a majority of miners would then have to move to that change.
Even attempting this would destroy bitcoin

Can you expand on this? I dont understand how it would damage anything.

I mean, assuming we KNOW these 500k lost coins were Gox, why cant they be restored if the community supports it?

[empowering]

Some facts about MtGox would be nice... really nice.

It's becoming more and more clear that the coins haven't been stolen, they've just lost the keys lol. Once this is confirmed, should be very bullish.

Yeaahh... but you prove my point exactly...

I have not seen anything clear at all, and certainly not from MtGox themleves...

just very weird maybe real maybe fake, take overs and crisis letters and theories, and guesses and maybe they lost x or maybe they lost XXX or maybe they did not lose X but just the keys to X , and maybe the cat has them, and maybe the illuminated ones are going to take over, but we have a strong feeling something was stolen? maybe mislaid, technically speaking I cannot quite put my finger on what may have been lost/stolen/kidnapped/spent/blown out of a zebras ass.

Back to my original point.... Some FACTS about Mt Gox would be nice.

All I have seen for days is guess work as that is all we have.

Only Mark can give us facts and I don't think we'll be hearing anything solid from him for a long time, if ever.

I am not so sure...

Yeah this is all very retarded, and to be honest I am not saying I would trust what comes out of his mouth, but what I am saying is the obvious, we have not actually had any news from MtGox, outright to say the one thing that we all want to know "The coins are gone" sure we have not heard the opposite either... but this is a bit like going to the Dr's and having a check up and then spending the next week living at a hypochondriacs house and frantically listing off all of the terrible things that could be wrong.... that still does not mean when you get to the Dr;s they will not turn around and tell you that you have cancer of the A hole- but it certainly does little use dreaming up Alzheimers and aids into the mix before you even get to the Dr's..

I am sure the fit has hit the fan, but I have heard every figure from a few thousand, to 750K to millions to all of the Bitcoins having been stolen...
they cannot all be true... (yeah ok all of the coins could cover a million or 750K but you get the point) then its they are being investigated, then taken over, then insolvent, then doing a bunk... then they possibly do have the coins, then they do not...

Lot of disinfos... not helped by silence from Mt Gox...

What we need is for MK to come out and say - all is lost, and this is the cause, or all is not lost, you need to wait until x.

The fact that we have not had one or the other is odd- and as little as I trust MK, I do not trust twobit not one bit.

The most likely event changes over time, that's why there are so many conflicting reports. Mark hasn't come out to say 'we've lost the coins' because he still hopes he can get access to them or that gox can be acquired.

Yes I am up to date with the theories... and I happen to think it quite likely that the coins are "out of reach atm" and so my guess is the same as your guess... would be nice not to be guessin' no mo.

[delphic]

Lost coins only make everyone else's coins worth slightly more.Think of it as a donation to everyone.

Satoshi Nakamoto 21/12/2010

Satoshi may have been wrong here; at least, 'lost' coins are indistinguishable from coins in cold storage.

Why? Both are, by definition, locked away and do not move.

If coins are lost, it is impossible to prove to another party that they are lost. Anyone can claim that the keys are lost; anyone can claim that coins at a particular address are/were under their control, and no-one is the wiser unless someone else turns up and shows that they control the keys.

So, except for people who themselves know that their own coins are lost and that no-one else has gained control, coins that are declared 'lost' cannot be known, by other bitcoin users, to be lost ; they must be assumed to be accessible unless proven otherwise, (which is impossible if actually lost).

And 'lost' keys can be found years later under certain circumstances.

More abstractly, lost coins are illiquid and, like cold-stored coins, reduce velocity, which may mathematically manifest itself in the economy.

[Chang Hum]

So let me get this straight, it only took a simple check of addresses associated with MTgox to completely undermine the credibility of the crisis plan document and show that Gox is in fact solvent.

Woah bit hard to get my head around this but that logically means that pre-announcement Gox coins should be trading at around .5 , yet are being traded for just 0.06 at the moment on Bitcoin Builder.com. 1000% profit? yes please I'm going to get over there now!!!

It however doesn't prove that they still have the private keys to access them. Effectively they are still lost, and won't help their solvency, if that is the case.

I really don't get why people are speculating that gox has lost keys to wallets containing massive fortunes!!! there's absolutely no news to suggest this so it's like people can't handle the shock of the good news and are trying to stop the party.

The fact is it completely discredits what was laid out in the crisis document and is an ultra bullish sign for anyone holding GoxBtc now!!

[jojo69]

ahhh, the Karpeles fork

I was wondering how long it would take for this to come up

[derpinheimer]

So let me get this straight, it only took a simple check of addresses associated with MTgox to completely undermine the credibility of the crisis plan document and show that Gox is in fact solvent.

Woah bit hard to get my head around this but that logically means that pre-announcement Gox coins should be trading at around .5 , yet are being traded for just 0.06 at the moment on Bitcoin Builder.com. 1000% profit? yes please I'm going to get over there now!!!

It however doesn't prove that they still have the private keys to access them. Effectively they are still lost, and won't help their solvency, if that is the case.

I really don't get why people are speculating that gox has lost keys to wallets containing massive fortunes!!! there's absolutely no news to suggest this so it's like people can't handle the shock of the good news and are trying to stop the party.

The fact is it completely discredits what was laid out in the crisis document and is an ultra bullish sign for anyone holding GoxBtc now!!

Well has anyone proven the legitimacy of the IRC chat? With the addresses?

[jl2012]

It's becoming more and more clear that the coins haven't been stolen, they've just lost the keys lol. Once this is confirmed, should be very bullish.

I don't think that the loss of those coins, per se, would have any effect.  

Think of the exchanges as water tanks where water represents bitcoins in the market, and the water level is the inverse price (how many BTC one can buy with one dollar).

The tanks are connected by pipes at the bottom (coin withdrawals and deposits) so the hydrostatic principle (arbitrage) keeps the water level about the same in all tanks. If one pours more water into any tank (brings more coins to the market) the level in all tanks goes up (meaning the price goes down).  The opposite happens if one takes water out of one tank (buys coins and puts them in cold storage).

If the MtGOX theft did happen, then at some point in the past, someone siphoned most of the water out of the MtGOX tank to a private barrel.  I the keys were lost, most of the water in that tank leaked out and was permanetly lost.  In either case, Mark put some bricks into the tank (hid the theft) so that people would not notice the loss, and the water level was not affected.   Then a few days ago the pipes out of that tank  were closed (withdrawals were blocked),  and the tank was disconnected and removed it from the system.   That would not affect the water level in the other tanks either.

If the theft happened, and the thief then dumped the water in other tanks (sold the coins in other markets), then there was indeed a net rise in the water level (a fall in market price); but that is past history.  

We may expect an effect only if the coins were stolen but have not been not sold yet EDIT: and are sold now.

(This analogy is imperfect because it does not model the money flows, but hopefully it is enough to argue the point.)

I am talking about a case in which the private keys have been lost, in which case 750k BTC has been taken out of the total money supply. If they have been stolen (but the keys are still known) it shouldn't have much of an affect.

If the keys are lost, it brings up an argument to fork the block chain, and change the code to manually recover the money. To a new address. A lot of people would support it. (and many would be against)... talk about polarising the Bitcoin community.

It won't work. Without the private key, how Mark could prove those are really gox's coins?

Not just that. You'd try to open pandora's box. I highly doubt the devs would ever put that into a protocol update.
And even if they did at least a majority of miners would then have to move to that change.
Even attempting this would destroy bitcoin

Can you expand on this? I dont understand how it would damage anything.

I mean, assuming we KNOW these 500k lost coins were Gox, why cant they be restored if the community supports it?

How do you KNOW? Who will JUDGE?

Please leave the bitcoin world and go back to your local bank. It's much "safer".

[delphic]

It's becoming more and more clear that the coins haven't been stolen, they've just lost the keys lol. Once this is confirmed, should be very bullish.

I don't think that the loss of those coins, per se, would have any effect.  

Think of the exchanges as water tanks where water represents bitcoins in the market, and the water level is the inverse price (how many BTC one can buy with one dollar).

The tanks are connected by pipes at the bottom (coin withdrawals and deposits) so the hydrostatic principle (arbitrage) keeps the water level about the same in all tanks. If one pours more water into any tank (brings more coins to the market) the level in all tanks goes up (meaning the price goes down).  The opposite happens if one takes water out of one tank (buys coins and puts them in cold storage).

If the MtGOX theft did happen, then at some point in the past, someone siphoned most of the water out of the MtGOX tank to a private barrel.  I the keys were lost, most of the water in that tank leaked out and was permanetly lost.  In either case, Mark put some bricks into the tank (hid the theft) so that people would not notice the loss, and the water level was not affected.   Then a few days ago the pipes out of that tank  were closed (withdrawals were blocked),  and the tank was disconnected and removed it from the system.   That would not affect the water level in the other tanks either.

If the theft happened, and the thief then dumped the water in other tanks (sold the coins in other markets), then there was indeed a net rise in the water level (a fall in market price); but that is past history.  

We may expect an effect only if the coins were stolen but have not been not sold yet EDIT: and are sold now.

(This analogy is imperfect because it does not model the money flows, but hopefully it is enough to argue the point.)

Jorge, are you aware that the UK economy used to be modelled by the Treasury by an actual water analog computer?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MONIAC_Computer

[FTWbitcoinFTW]

ahhh, the Karpeles fork

I was wondering how long it would take for this to come up

Normaly never but if morrons guys like you continue to talk about it a journalist-like in the need for click should be happy to make 1000 words with this BS

[porcupine87]

Not just that. You'd try to open pandora's box. I highly doubt the devs would ever put that into a protocol update.
And even if they did at least a majority of miners would then have to move to that change.

No miners would run the new code unless they got a cut of the coins.  That's all it would really take:  Offer 10% of the freed goxcoins as extra block rewards, and *ping* the coins are back.
The proof issue remains.  If it were directed by a court, I could see it happening.  Now *that* would be seriously dangerous to bitcoin:  An actual sovereign interference in the money supply.
We need to replace all the core devs with anonymous parties, untraceable by the court system.  Um.  That might not work out so well either.  Proof-of-Ethics protocol not yet implemented.

Never ever... I can understand people who have coins at gox would favor this, but like already said, this would undermine the fundamental priciples of Bitcoin. So what will be the next exception? I lost 1000coins back in the days, so why should gox people be compensated but me not? Ah btw, I don't can prove, that this address is mine...

[soullyG]

Lost coins only make everyone else's coins worth slightly more.Think of it as a donation to everyone.

Satoshi Nakamoto 21/12/2010

Satoshi may have been wrong here; at least, 'lost' coins are indistinguishable from coins in cold storage.

Why? Both are, by definition, locked away and do not move.

If coins are lost, it is impossible to prove to another party that they are lost. Anyone can claim that the keys are lost; anyone can claim that coins at a particular address are/were under their control, and no-one is the wiser unless someone else turns up and shows that they control the keys.

So, except for people who themselves know that their own coins are lost and that no-one else has gained control, coins that are declared 'lost' cannot be known, by other bitcoin users, to be lost ; they must be assumed to be accessible unless proven otherwise, (which is impossible if actually lost).

And 'lost' keys can be found years later under certain circumstances.

More abstractly, lost coins are illiquid and, like cold-stored coins, reduce velocity, which may mathematically manifest itself in the economy.

Schrödinger's Coins?

[jojo69]

ahhh, the Karpeles fork

I was wondering how long it would take for this to come up

Normaly never but if morrons guys like you continue to talk about it a journalist-like in the need for click should be happy to make 1000 words with this BS

lol wut?

I was thinking about this last night and kept my mouth shut till it was the main topic

I do , however, recognize the dangerous tendency for parody to become reality in this age.