Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion

[ChartBuddy]

Coin
Explanation

[marcus_of_augustus]

What the hell's happening. Does anyone know why we are seeing a rise all of a sudden right now ?
Can't believe this

Barry's ETF got approved.

It's not an ETF. It' s an OTC (over the counter), a penny stock. Institutional money is not allowed to trade this.

It's a fund, and will be traded on the pink sheets exchanges. Obviously not as big as news of COIN going live on the nasdaq. And no one was suggesting pension funds would be jumping in.

however, another milestone along the historic trajectory of bitcoin ... now we have "publicly traded" bitcoin, in the traditional sense, with all the trappings and risks that brings (like rubber stamped and ironically down to the detail that you don't actually possess the underlying asset!)

This one event signifies a new chapter beginning.

[itod]

Let me see if I got this right: Some other fund, not Winklevoss', was included on the exchange before the ETF?

[macsga]

however, another milestone along the historic trajectory of bitcoin ... now we have "publicly traded" bitcoin, in the traditional sense, with all the trappings and risks that brings (like rubber stamped and ironically down to the detail that you don't actually possess the underlying asset!)

This one event signifies a new chapter beginning.

A new type of Goxxed possibilities you mean? That's a novelty, for sure!

[sunshine_sid]

I told you.  Its time.

[BlindMayorBitcorn]

Let me see if I got this right: Some other fund, not Winklevoss', was included on the exchange before the ETF?

No. The Winks were aiming at Nasdaq.

[oda.krell]

[...]

Your first paragraph: Neither he nor I have said that the market price is identical to everybody's sincere valuation. The point is that everybody has a different valuation, either above or below the last price.

The other paragraphs: Yeah, all kinds of reasons for what people do.

I'm getting the feeling you're reaching here.

Jorge's original quote, one more time:

everybody who who owns bitcoin thinks that they are worth more than 245$; but, on the other hand, everybody in the world who has some money to spare thinks that 1 BTC is not worth 255$.

"thinks that they are worth" ... "thinks that 1 BTC is not worth" ...

If that's not supposed to be about fundamental, "sincere", valuation then it's phrased pretty misleading. If it is about fundamental valuation, see my argument above.

[NotLambchop]

...
however, another milestone along the historic trajectory of bitcoin ... now we have "publicly traded" bitcoin, in the traditional sense, with all the trappings and risks that brings (like rubber stamped and ironically down to the detail that you don't actually possess the underlying asset!)

This one event signifies a new chapter beginning.

I remembered The Fourteenth Book of Bokonon, which I had read in its entirety the night before. The Fourteenth Book is entitled, "What Can a Thoughtful Man Hope for Mankind on Earth Bitcoin, Given the Experience of the Past Million Years?"
It doesn't take long to read The Fourteenth Book. It consists of one word and a period.
This is it:
"Nothing." --Wikiquote

[tarmi]

It's not an ETF. It' s an OTC (over the counter), a penny stock. Institutional money is not allowed to trade this.

go bulls!

[itod]

Let me see if I got this right: Some other fund, not Winklevoss', was included on the exchange before the ETF?

No. The Winks were aiming at Nasdaq.

Tx. And which exchange this other fund is included on? Less hype and more info would be very nice in these news.

[Erdogan]

[...]

Your first paragraph: Neither he nor I have said that the market price is identical to everybody's sincere valuation. The point is that everybody has a different valuation, either above or below the last price.

The other paragraphs: Yeah, all kinds of reasons for what people do.

I'm getting the feeling you're reaching here.

Jorge's original quote, one more time:

everybody who who owns bitcoin thinks that they are worth more than 245$; but, on the other hand, everybody in the world who has some money to spare thinks that 1 BTC is not worth 255$.

"thinks that they are worth" ... "thinks that 1 BTC is not worth" ...

If that's not supposed to be about fundamental, "sincere", valuation then it's phrased pretty misleading. If it is about fundamental valuation, see my argument above.

No it is precise. There is no fundamental valuation, it is speculation about what others will do in the future. It goes for all money, the reason is that money can not directly be used for anything.

[Fatman3001]

[...]

Your first paragraph: Neither he nor I have said that the market price is identical to everybody's sincere valuation. The point is that everybody has a different valuation, either above or below the last price.

The other paragraphs: Yeah, all kinds of reasons for what people do.

I'm getting the feeling you're reaching here.

Jorge's original quote, one more time:

everybody who who owns bitcoin thinks that they are worth more than 245$; but, on the other hand, everybody in the world who has some money to spare thinks that 1 BTC is not worth 255$.

"thinks that they are worth" ... "thinks that 1 BTC is not worth" ...

If that's not supposed to be about fundamental, "sincere", valuation then it's phrased pretty misleading. If it is about fundamental valuation, see my argument above.

No it is precise. There is no fundamental valuation, it is speculation about what others will do in the future. It goes for all money, the reason is that money can not directly be used for anything.

[oda.krell]

[...]

No it is precise. There is no fundamental valuation, it is speculation about what others will do in the future. It goes for all money, the reason is that money can not directly be used for anything.

Except that precisely because of the speculative part of the market valuation, Jorge's point was wrong.

(I'm guilty of sloppy terminology here myself, by the way. I wrote "fundamental", which is usually understood in contrast to "speculative". I mean it here as the contrast to: market participant's choices running counter to their true valuation on some given time horizon)

I'll break the argument down again, and you can tell me exactly where you think I'm wrong:

Jorge: "Nobody who has heard of Bitcoin and holds USD thinks it is worth more than $250".

Me: "Wrong. Someone might value it at $300, but still refrain from buying the amount he wants to buy now, because he expects to be able to get a better price by spreading out his bids".

(Similarly for someone who buys btc *above* his own valuation, because he plans to sell them off after the "pump" he created himself.)

[Trolfi]

I've been in contact with the actual Jorge Stolfi--he himself disavows any knowledge of the imposter here who spends his days arguing with kids about Bitcoin, and whose posts coincidentally occur near the end of "troll waves" where all the trolls and their sock puppets quote each other to reinforce a point.

You mean that imposter?  Ha. Don't pay attention to him.  He is actually Satoshi Nakamoto, trying to save his experiment from us trolls -- the only attack vector that bitcoin was not designed to survive.

Troll admits to trolling while you are out parsing his words . . .

[StoraGottes]

Over-The-Counter - OTC

DEFINITION OF 'OVER-THE-COUNTER - OTC'
A security traded in some context other than on a formal exchange such as the NYSE, TSX, AMEX, etc. The phrase "over-the-counter" can be used to refer to stocks that trade via a dealer network as opposed to on a centralized exchange. It also refers to debt securities and other financial instruments such as derivatives, which are traded through a dealer network.

INVESTOPEDIA EXPLAINS 'OVER-THE-COUNTER - OTC'
In general, the reason for which a stock is traded over-the-counter is usually because the company is small, making it unable to meet exchange listing requirements. Also known as "unlisted stock", these securities are traded by broker-dealers who negotiate directly with one another over computer networks and by phone.

Although Nasdaq operates as a dealer network, Nasdaq stocks are generally not classified as OTC because the Nasdaq is considered a stock exchange. As such, OTC stocks are generally unlisted stocks which trade on the Over the Counter Bulletin Board (OTCBB) or on the pink sheets. Be very wary of some OTC stocks, however; the OTCBB stocks are either penny stocks or are offered by companies with bad credit records.

Instruments such as bonds do not trade on a formal exchange and are, therefore, also considered OTC securities. Most debt instruments are traded by investment banks making markets for specific issues. If an investor wants to buy or sell a bond, he or she must call the bank that makes the market in that bond and asks for quotes.

[NotLambchop]

...
Me: "Wrong. Someone might value it at $300, but still refrain from buying the amount he wants to buy now, because he expects to be able to get a better price by spreading out his bids".
...

How is that not identical to saying "I don't think it's worth $300 now, because I think I can get it for less in the future"?

*That's what "not worth it" means for speculative commodities--"I can get it for less in the future."  Doesn't hold for stuff like oil or coffee or jelly doughnuts, because I need my coffee and doughnut in the morning, don't care if could get a discount @ 3pm.

@Trolfi: but ur an fagit tho.

[Erdogan]

[...]

No it is precise. There is no fundamental valuation, it is speculation about what others will do in the future. It goes for all money, the reason is that money can not directly be used for anything.

Except that precisely because of the speculative part of the market valuation, Jorge's point was wrong.

(I'm guilty of sloppy terminology here myself, by the way. I wrote "fundamental", which is usually understood in contrast to "speculative". I mean it here as the contrast to: market participant's choices running counter to their true valuation on some given time horizon)

I'll break the argument down again, and you can tell me exactly where you think I'm wrong:

Jorge: "Nobody who has heard of Bitcoin and holds USD thinks it is worth more than $250".

Me: "Wrong. Someone might value it at $300, but still refrain from buying the amount he wants to buy now, because he expects to be able to get a better price by spreading out his bids".

(Similarly for someone who buys btc *above* his own valuation, because he plans to sell them off after the "pump" he created himself.)

It's not wrong, but the demand is not from wanting or wishing, it is when someone act by making an offer or accepting an offer. If someone thinks it is worth 300, but does not accept an offer of 250, he does not act and his valuation is meaningless.

[YourMother]

Another forced pump to help the momentum ?

The laughter that is pouring out of me,
tears rolling down my face.

[WeltMaster]

Can bitcoin live again?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3L4YrGaR8E4

[Trolfi]

i think what "Stolfi" wants to know is the *real* value of a bitcoin. You know, figure out what it's really worth.