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Question: What happens first:
New ATH - 43 (69.4%)
<$60,000 - 19 (30.6%)
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Author Topic: Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion  (Read 26404426 times)
This is a self-moderated topic. If you do not want to be moderated by the person who started this topic, create a new topic. (174 posts by 3 users with 9 merit deleted.)
Elwar
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October 22, 2015, 11:33:29 AM


This is great news. I was dreading needing to take my VAT excemption forms every time I buy bitcoins.
paratox
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October 22, 2015, 11:35:48 AM

Were there any countries where bitcoin trades were already paying VAT (or inhibited because of it)? In Sweden maybe? In the UK?

In Poland they had a 23% VAT.
Elwar
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October 22, 2015, 11:38:48 AM

This price surge seems to be led by the Western exchanges, and must be due to the European VAT ruling.

Were there any countries where bitcoin trades were already paying VAT (or inhibited because of it)? In Sweden maybe? In the UK?

http://cointelegraph.com/news/113477/new-eu-tax-law-could-double-tax-bitcoin-and-log-location-data

Quote
The broad classification of these “digital services” means that the supply of bitcoins could be included in such a definition. Article 7.2.a of the explanatory notes defines digital goods so broadly as “the supply of digitized products generally, including software and changes to or upgrades of software.”

Without any European wide agreement about what digital currencies actually are for tax purposes, companies aiming to stay on the right side of the law may fairly presume that supplying digital currencies and services related to them constitute this tax liability.

The lack of the European wide ruling on the nature of bitcoins and other digital currencies for taxation is one of the biggest stumbling blocks currently facing member states as they try integrating the new form of income, saving, and spending into their domestic tax systems, where VAT levels are set. As mentioned earlier, both Sweden and Finland have fought with the EU over this issue in the past.
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October 22, 2015, 11:40:51 AM

This price surge seems to be led by the Western exchanges, and must be due to the European VAT ruling.

Were there any countries where bitcoin trades were already paying VAT (or inhibited because of it)? In Sweden maybe? In the UK?

Norway 25%
DaRude
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October 22, 2015, 11:41:03 AM

I am what I would consider a Bitcoin fanatic. Beyond the idealistic reasons that I choose to use Bitcoin, I have plenty to lose (financially) if Bitcoin drops in value (and plenty to gain if it increases in value). If I am concerned about my ability (as a Bitcoin fanatic) to run a full node with the current anti-spam (has spam been fixed by the way?) 1MB block size limit in place, what is going to happen when the data I need to share with my peers doubles (or increases 8-fold, wtf!)? When Bitcoin fanatics have doubts about running a full node, I would imagine that the robustness of the decentralized network has been harmed.

Yes, I am of the opinion that I absolutely must run a full node to take full advantage of Bitcoin.

The price of bitcoin has been, and still is, determined by the expectation of its demand being high in some future time.  

Until recently, that high future demand was supposed to come from its use as a currency for internet payments.  The current level of use (maybe 5 million USD/day, by optimistic estimates) is too low to produce that demand, by orders of magnitude.  To justify a price of 2500 USD/BTC (say) one would need 100 to 1000 times as much use.  

The current "normal" traffic T, ignoring the recent "stress tests", is about 120'000 tx/day, or about 0.45 MB/block on average; and has doubled in the last 12 months.  That is too close to the effective capacity C of the network, currently ~200'000 tx/day or ~0.80 MB/block. (C is not 1.00 MB/block because of the inevitable empty blocks).

Granted, much of that traffic is not payments (bitcoins changing hands in exchange for other goods and services).  Lots of it is gambling, wallet housekeeping, tumbling, notarizing, testing, and possibly fake traffic meant to give the illusion of increasing adoption.  How much of T is due to those "non-essential" uses?  Guesses vary; my own guess is 90% or more.

But even if 90% of T was "non-essential" and could be eliminated, to get to 2500 USD/BTC one would still need 10 to 100 times more traffic than there is today.  If running a full node is not viable for home users today, it will be quite impossible by then.  In other words, if the proper working of bitcoin depends on home users running full nodes, then bitcoin is not a viable competitor for PayPal or Apple Pay, much less for VISA.

Back to the present, the block size limit would not be such a pressing issue if that "non-essential" traffic were excluded.  IMHO, the best way to do that would be to set a significant fee and a significant minimum transaction value -- say, 0.001 BTC (~0.25 USD) per output.  That is how Charlie Lee solved the spam problem in Litecoin; but his suggestion to the Bitcoin devs to do the same fell on deaf ears.  (So much for the old claim that "Bitcoin will not be superseded by a better altcoin because it can itself incorporate any good features of the latter".)

By my guess, a significant fee and value threshold would reduce T to 1/10 of the present value.  It would also make stress tests and spam attacks much more expensive to the attacker, hence much less likely. (We still haven't seen a real spam attack, but it is estimated that an effective one could be sustained for a couple of days for maybe 100'000 USD/day, or less.)  Note that 0.25 USD/tx is still less than 10% of the per-transaction cost of mining.  On the other hand, it would not prevent the hoped-for 100x or 1000x increase in adoption that would be needed to drive the price up.

Unfortunately, raising the fee is politically impossible, for several reasons.  "No fees" has been a pillar of the "marketing" of bitcoin since the drive for general adoption started in 2013, and is still part of the discourse of important players like Coinbase and BitPay.  A fee raise would probably break gambling compaies like SatoshiDice, and several other companies that are politically powerful in "bitcoin space" (e.g. by sponsoring the "bitcoin media", events, and avertising in mainstream media.)  A large drop in T would also expose the fact that adoption for e-payments is not growing, and probably declining.

A large minimum fee has been opposed also on "ideological" grounds, because it would need some governing body to decide the proper value, and change it from time to time based on the current market price and the state of the economy.  Thus, the small-blockians claim that letting the "fee market" define the fees would be an "ideologically pure" solution.  But the 1 MB block size limit was not chosen for that purpose.  "Market" fees that result from an arbitrary block size limit would be just as arbitrary as fees set directly.  A governing body would still be needed to impose a block size limit, and revise it from time to time, to achieve the best fee and volume numbers.

So, what is the solution?  In my view, there is none; hence my signature.  As most of you know by now, I think that bitcoin should never have been marketed to the general public. It was started a technical experiment to test whether the protocol worked in practice, as it seemed to work in theory; and should have remained such.   The protocol mostly works, but the result is not a viable currency for several problems that were not foreseen.  Fixing those problems seems to require another couple of brilliant inventions, like the PoW blockchain.

Your first mistake (of many) is your assumption that value of assets is based on it's current use, where in actuality especially for small caps 99% of it is based on potential think WhatsAp, twitter etc... The other point is just because you can't think of a solution doesn't mean no one else can. In my opinion raising transaction to 0.25 USD/tx would be equivalent of shooting a fly with a bazooka. But the funny thing is, even in that worst case, I think bitcoin can still prosper.
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October 22, 2015, 11:43:13 AM


but.....but.......they said double top.
8up
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October 22, 2015, 11:45:43 AM


but.....but.......they said double top.

markets can stay irrational for a long time...

(nevertheless expecting a sharp set-back)
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October 22, 2015, 11:49:31 AM


but.....but.......they said double top.

Traders are like zombies, just when you think they have eaten enough they come back for seconds. Nom nom nom...
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October 22, 2015, 11:53:43 AM

Were there any countries where bitcoin trades were already paying VAT (or inhibited because of it)? In Sweden maybe? In the UK?

In Poland they had a 23% VAT.

BTC exchanges in Poland do not add VAT to the value of the trade and never did.
(It was still a potential threat, though).
Pierre 2
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October 22, 2015, 11:54:35 AM

China is still over 280$ but someone dumped coins in Btc-e. I don't really understand these dumpers on low prices.
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October 22, 2015, 11:56:47 AM

it's a dump fest from 280~282.

I expect a pull back in the next few days to 255.
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October 22, 2015, 11:57:00 AM



I didn't notice this rise until now, beautiful!
8up
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October 22, 2015, 12:00:26 PM

it's a dump fest from 280~282.

I expect a pull back in the next few days to 255.

agree. won't take days. already entering a sharp correction.
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October 22, 2015, 12:01:20 PM

it's a dump fest from 280~282.

I expect a pull back in the next few days to 255.

I expect 272 will hold and new target is 290
ChartBuddy
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October 22, 2015, 12:01:36 PM

Coin

Explanation
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October 22, 2015, 12:02:55 PM

Pumpers at work again, 276 and growing. Lets see when the dump happens, in 3 days like the last time or will it go on for longer?
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October 22, 2015, 12:03:11 PM

Your first mistake (of many) is your assumption that value of assets is based on it's current use, where in actuality especially for small caps 99% of it is based on potential think WhatsAp, twitter etc... The other point is just because you can't think of a solution doesn't mean no one else can. In my opinion raising transaction to 0.25 USD/tx would be equivalent of shooting a fly with a bazooka. But the funny thing is, even in that worst case, I think bitcoin can still prosper.

I explicitly said "expectation of future usage".  That was THE selling point in Nov/2013 when I first learned about bitcoin.

And I also did not say that the "proper fee" question is unsolvable. I said that there is no solution (known, or within sight) and that it would  requires another brilliant invention. 

(Without some automatic and economically sound fee adjustment mechanism, a workaround would be to have a governing body like the international commission that defines and updates (by voting) the Metric System: with no legal power, but with effective moral power derived from competence and representativity.  But try telling that to the libertarians...)
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October 22, 2015, 12:06:20 PM

FLASH PUMP!!!! ARE WE GOING UP OR DOWN FROM HERE FOLKS???



HEADED BACK UPPPPPPP W00T
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October 22, 2015, 12:08:28 PM

...
Your first mistake (of many) is your assumption that value of assets is based on it's current use, where in actuality especially for small caps 99% of it is based on potential think WhatsAp, twitter etc... The other point is just because you can't think of a solution doesn't mean no one else can. In my opinion raising transaction to 0.25 USD/tx would be equivalent of shooting a fly with a bazooka. But the funny thing is, even in that worst case, I think bitcoin can still prosper.

Your first mistake (of many) is assuming just because you think that some other people (presumably smarter than yourself) will eventually find a solution doesn't mean that they really would. Ignoring problems by writing them off as trivialities, to be easily solved later, by other people, has pretty much become the hallmark of Bitcoin over the past 5+ years.
6+ years, still in beta, and no agreed-upon roadmap Undecided
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October 22, 2015, 12:09:34 PM

Strap yourselves in gentlemen Wink

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