Bitcoin Forum
November 07, 2024, 08:46:03 AM *
News: Latest Bitcoin Core release: 28.0 [Torrent]
 
   Home   Help Search Login Register More  
Poll
Question: When will BTC get back above $70K:
7/14 - 0 (0%)
7/21 - 1 (0.8%)
7/28 - 11 (8.9%)
8/4 - 16 (12.9%)
8/11 - 8 (6.5%)
8/18 - 6 (4.8%)
8/25 - 8 (6.5%)
After August - 74 (59.7%)
Total Voters: 124

Pages: « 1 ... 13440 13441 13442 13443 13444 13445 13446 13447 13448 13449 13450 13451 13452 13453 13454 13455 13456 13457 13458 13459 13460 13461 13462 13463 13464 13465 13466 13467 13468 13469 13470 13471 13472 13473 13474 13475 13476 13477 13478 13479 13480 13481 13482 13483 13484 13485 13486 13487 13488 13489 [13490] 13491 13492 13493 13494 13495 13496 13497 13498 13499 13500 13501 13502 13503 13504 13505 13506 13507 13508 13509 13510 13511 13512 13513 13514 13515 13516 13517 13518 13519 13520 13521 13522 13523 13524 13525 13526 13527 13528 13529 13530 13531 13532 13533 13534 13535 13536 13537 13538 13539 13540 ... 33893 »
  Print  
Author Topic: Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion  (Read 26488224 times)
This is a self-moderated topic. If you do not want to be moderated by the person who started this topic, create a new topic. (174 posts by 3 users with 9 merit deleted.)
Elwar
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 3598
Merit: 2386


Viva Ut Vivas


View Profile WWW
October 22, 2015, 11:33:29 AM


This is great news. I was dreading needing to take my VAT excemption forms every time I buy bitcoins.
paratox
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Activity: 124
Merit: 100


View Profile
October 22, 2015, 11:35:48 AM

Were there any countries where bitcoin trades were already paying VAT (or inhibited because of it)? In Sweden maybe? In the UK?

In Poland they had a 23% VAT.
Elwar
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 3598
Merit: 2386


Viva Ut Vivas


View Profile WWW
October 22, 2015, 11:38:48 AM

This price surge seems to be led by the Western exchanges, and must be due to the European VAT ruling.

Were there any countries where bitcoin trades were already paying VAT (or inhibited because of it)? In Sweden maybe? In the UK?

http://cointelegraph.com/news/113477/new-eu-tax-law-could-double-tax-bitcoin-and-log-location-data

Quote
The broad classification of these “digital services” means that the supply of bitcoins could be included in such a definition. Article 7.2.a of the explanatory notes defines digital goods so broadly as “the supply of digitized products generally, including software and changes to or upgrades of software.”

Without any European wide agreement about what digital currencies actually are for tax purposes, companies aiming to stay on the right side of the law may fairly presume that supplying digital currencies and services related to them constitute this tax liability.

The lack of the European wide ruling on the nature of bitcoins and other digital currencies for taxation is one of the biggest stumbling blocks currently facing member states as they try integrating the new form of income, saving, and spending into their domestic tax systems, where VAT levels are set. As mentioned earlier, both Sweden and Finland have fought with the EU over this issue in the past.
Fatman3001
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1526
Merit: 1013


Make Bitcoin glow with ENIAC


View Profile
October 22, 2015, 11:40:51 AM

This price surge seems to be led by the Western exchanges, and must be due to the European VAT ruling.

Were there any countries where bitcoin trades were already paying VAT (or inhibited because of it)? In Sweden maybe? In the UK?

Norway 25%
DaRude
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 2902
Merit: 1914


In order to dump coins one must have coins


View Profile
October 22, 2015, 11:41:03 AM

I am what I would consider a Bitcoin fanatic. Beyond the idealistic reasons that I choose to use Bitcoin, I have plenty to lose (financially) if Bitcoin drops in value (and plenty to gain if it increases in value). If I am concerned about my ability (as a Bitcoin fanatic) to run a full node with the current anti-spam (has spam been fixed by the way?) 1MB block size limit in place, what is going to happen when the data I need to share with my peers doubles (or increases 8-fold, wtf!)? When Bitcoin fanatics have doubts about running a full node, I would imagine that the robustness of the decentralized network has been harmed.

Yes, I am of the opinion that I absolutely must run a full node to take full advantage of Bitcoin.

The price of bitcoin has been, and still is, determined by the expectation of its demand being high in some future time.  

Until recently, that high future demand was supposed to come from its use as a currency for internet payments.  The current level of use (maybe 5 million USD/day, by optimistic estimates) is too low to produce that demand, by orders of magnitude.  To justify a price of 2500 USD/BTC (say) one would need 100 to 1000 times as much use.  

The current "normal" traffic T, ignoring the recent "stress tests", is about 120'000 tx/day, or about 0.45 MB/block on average; and has doubled in the last 12 months.  That is too close to the effective capacity C of the network, currently ~200'000 tx/day or ~0.80 MB/block. (C is not 1.00 MB/block because of the inevitable empty blocks).

Granted, much of that traffic is not payments (bitcoins changing hands in exchange for other goods and services).  Lots of it is gambling, wallet housekeeping, tumbling, notarizing, testing, and possibly fake traffic meant to give the illusion of increasing adoption.  How much of T is due to those "non-essential" uses?  Guesses vary; my own guess is 90% or more.

But even if 90% of T was "non-essential" and could be eliminated, to get to 2500 USD/BTC one would still need 10 to 100 times more traffic than there is today.  If running a full node is not viable for home users today, it will be quite impossible by then.  In other words, if the proper working of bitcoin depends on home users running full nodes, then bitcoin is not a viable competitor for PayPal or Apple Pay, much less for VISA.

Back to the present, the block size limit would not be such a pressing issue if that "non-essential" traffic were excluded.  IMHO, the best way to do that would be to set a significant fee and a significant minimum transaction value -- say, 0.001 BTC (~0.25 USD) per output.  That is how Charlie Lee solved the spam problem in Litecoin; but his suggestion to the Bitcoin devs to do the same fell on deaf ears.  (So much for the old claim that "Bitcoin will not be superseded by a better altcoin because it can itself incorporate any good features of the latter".)

By my guess, a significant fee and value threshold would reduce T to 1/10 of the present value.  It would also make stress tests and spam attacks much more expensive to the attacker, hence much less likely. (We still haven't seen a real spam attack, but it is estimated that an effective one could be sustained for a couple of days for maybe 100'000 USD/day, or less.)  Note that 0.25 USD/tx is still less than 10% of the per-transaction cost of mining.  On the other hand, it would not prevent the hoped-for 100x or 1000x increase in adoption that would be needed to drive the price up.

Unfortunately, raising the fee is politically impossible, for several reasons.  "No fees" has been a pillar of the "marketing" of bitcoin since the drive for general adoption started in 2013, and is still part of the discourse of important players like Coinbase and BitPay.  A fee raise would probably break gambling compaies like SatoshiDice, and several other companies that are politically powerful in "bitcoin space" (e.g. by sponsoring the "bitcoin media", events, and avertising in mainstream media.)  A large drop in T would also expose the fact that adoption for e-payments is not growing, and probably declining.

A large minimum fee has been opposed also on "ideological" grounds, because it would need some governing body to decide the proper value, and change it from time to time based on the current market price and the state of the economy.  Thus, the small-blockians claim that letting the "fee market" define the fees would be an "ideologically pure" solution.  But the 1 MB block size limit was not chosen for that purpose.  "Market" fees that result from an arbitrary block size limit would be just as arbitrary as fees set directly.  A governing body would still be needed to impose a block size limit, and revise it from time to time, to achieve the best fee and volume numbers.

So, what is the solution?  In my view, there is none; hence my signature.  As most of you know by now, I think that bitcoin should never have been marketed to the general public. It was started a technical experiment to test whether the protocol worked in practice, as it seemed to work in theory; and should have remained such.   The protocol mostly works, but the result is not a viable currency for several problems that were not foreseen.  Fixing those problems seems to require another couple of brilliant inventions, like the PoW blockchain.

Your first mistake (of many) is your assumption that value of assets is based on it's current use, where in actuality especially for small caps 99% of it is based on potential think WhatsAp, twitter etc... The other point is just because you can't think of a solution doesn't mean no one else can. In my opinion raising transaction to 0.25 USD/tx would be equivalent of shooting a fly with a bazooka. But the funny thing is, even in that worst case, I think bitcoin can still prosper.
ImI
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1946
Merit: 1019



View Profile
October 22, 2015, 11:43:13 AM


but.....but.......they said double top.
8up
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 618
Merit: 500



View Profile
October 22, 2015, 11:45:43 AM


but.....but.......they said double top.

markets can stay irrational for a long time...

(nevertheless expecting a sharp set-back)
Fiat_Hodler
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Activity: 196
Merit: 100


View Profile
October 22, 2015, 11:49:31 AM


but.....but.......they said double top.

Traders are like zombies, just when you think they have eaten enough they come back for seconds. Nom nom nom...
andy-bc
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 23
Merit: 0


View Profile
October 22, 2015, 11:53:43 AM

Were there any countries where bitcoin trades were already paying VAT (or inhibited because of it)? In Sweden maybe? In the UK?

In Poland they had a 23% VAT.

BTC exchanges in Poland do not add VAT to the value of the trade and never did.
(It was still a potential threat, though).
Pierre 2
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 2436
Merit: 1366


View Profile
October 22, 2015, 11:54:35 AM

China is still over 280$ but someone dumped coins in Btc-e. I don't really understand these dumpers on low prices.
tarmi
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1232
Merit: 1011


View Profile
October 22, 2015, 11:56:47 AM

it's a dump fest from 280~282.

I expect a pull back in the next few days to 255.
Hunyadi
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1281
Merit: 1000


☑ ♟ ☐ ♚


View Profile
October 22, 2015, 11:57:00 AM



I didn't notice this rise until now, beautiful!
8up
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 618
Merit: 500



View Profile
October 22, 2015, 12:00:26 PM

it's a dump fest from 280~282.

I expect a pull back in the next few days to 255.

agree. won't take days. already entering a sharp correction.
koryu
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 681
Merit: 507



View Profile
October 22, 2015, 12:01:20 PM

it's a dump fest from 280~282.

I expect a pull back in the next few days to 255.

I expect 272 will hold and new target is 290
ChartBuddy
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 2352
Merit: 1803


1CBuddyxy4FerT3hzMmi1Jz48ESzRw1ZzZ


View Profile
October 22, 2015, 12:01:36 PM

Coin

Explanation
mexxer-2
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 924
Merit: 1005


4 Mana 7/7


View Profile
October 22, 2015, 12:02:55 PM

Pumpers at work again, 276 and growing. Lets see when the dump happens, in 3 days like the last time or will it go on for longer?
JorgeStolfi
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 910
Merit: 1003



View Profile
October 22, 2015, 12:03:11 PM

Your first mistake (of many) is your assumption that value of assets is based on it's current use, where in actuality especially for small caps 99% of it is based on potential think WhatsAp, twitter etc... The other point is just because you can't think of a solution doesn't mean no one else can. In my opinion raising transaction to 0.25 USD/tx would be equivalent of shooting a fly with a bazooka. But the funny thing is, even in that worst case, I think bitcoin can still prosper.

I explicitly said "expectation of future usage".  That was THE selling point in Nov/2013 when I first learned about bitcoin.

And I also did not say that the "proper fee" question is unsolvable. I said that there is no solution (known, or within sight) and that it would  requires another brilliant invention. 

(Without some automatic and economically sound fee adjustment mechanism, a workaround would be to have a governing body like the international commission that defines and updates (by voting) the Metric System: with no legal power, but with effective moral power derived from competence and representativity.  But try telling that to the libertarians...)
peonminer
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 798
Merit: 531


Crypto is King.


View Profile
October 22, 2015, 12:06:20 PM

FLASH PUMP!!!! ARE WE GOING UP OR DOWN FROM HERE FOLKS???



HEADED BACK UPPPPPPP W00T
yolalanda
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 56
Merit: 0


View Profile
October 22, 2015, 12:08:28 PM

...
Your first mistake (of many) is your assumption that value of assets is based on it's current use, where in actuality especially for small caps 99% of it is based on potential think WhatsAp, twitter etc... The other point is just because you can't think of a solution doesn't mean no one else can. In my opinion raising transaction to 0.25 USD/tx would be equivalent of shooting a fly with a bazooka. But the funny thing is, even in that worst case, I think bitcoin can still prosper.

Your first mistake (of many) is assuming just because you think that some other people (presumably smarter than yourself) will eventually find a solution doesn't mean that they really would. Ignoring problems by writing them off as trivialities, to be easily solved later, by other people, has pretty much become the hallmark of Bitcoin over the past 5+ years.
6+ years, still in beta, and no agreed-upon roadmap Undecided
LFC_Bitcoin
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 3710
Merit: 10436


#1 VIP Crypto Casino


View Profile
October 22, 2015, 12:09:34 PM

Strap yourselves in gentlemen Wink

Pages: « 1 ... 13440 13441 13442 13443 13444 13445 13446 13447 13448 13449 13450 13451 13452 13453 13454 13455 13456 13457 13458 13459 13460 13461 13462 13463 13464 13465 13466 13467 13468 13469 13470 13471 13472 13473 13474 13475 13476 13477 13478 13479 13480 13481 13482 13483 13484 13485 13486 13487 13488 13489 [13490] 13491 13492 13493 13494 13495 13496 13497 13498 13499 13500 13501 13502 13503 13504 13505 13506 13507 13508 13509 13510 13511 13512 13513 13514 13515 13516 13517 13518 13519 13520 13521 13522 13523 13524 13525 13526 13527 13528 13529 13530 13531 13532 13533 13534 13535 13536 13537 13538 13539 13540 ... 33893 »
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.19 | SMF © 2006-2009, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!