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Question: How far will this leg take us?
$110K - 9 (8.3%)
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Author Topic: Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion  (Read 26835690 times)
This is a self-moderated topic. If you do not want to be moderated by the person who started this topic, create a new topic. (174 posts by 1 users with 9 merit deleted.)
Sitarow
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January 21, 2016, 08:57:22 PM



I think you may be trolling Smiley however for those that may be reading your reply then please indulge further.

#1 The "hashpower" is migratory and can move in less time than it takes for you to wire funds to your

The physical bitcoin mines cannot be moved easily.  The ChiComs can nationalize them, merge the pools and double spend until we fork away from them. Then they can point at the new fork and do it again. Only forking away from SHA256 can stop them.  You can imagine the damage that will do.

Physical bitcoin mines tend to shutdown due to obsolete hardware when new technology goes online. Most recently the new ASIC chips 0.06J/GH vs the best bitmain has to offer that was recently sold at 0.25J/GH or the older hardware of 0.55J/GH.

What I was making reference to is that people who point hardware at the pools can point them to other pools rather simply. Many have backup pools pre-programmed for any downtime the primary target pool has.
CuntChocula
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January 21, 2016, 08:58:46 PM

... I have lived in many and currently do live in a mostly anarcho-cap community. (The only reason it isn't completely an-cap is because we do have to pay a small tribute to for land to prevent the state from attacking us) .... but we built and maintain the roads , we built the electrical infrastructure, we built and maintain the water treatment and sewage treatment, we put out our own forest fires, we have our own private community watch program and local DRO for security, and we do not call the cops for assistance. These "public" services are all done without taxes and voluntarily without coercion. No this isn't Somalia either ...

So... Where & what is it? Or do I gotta "respect ur privacy" because jackbooted banksters are about?
BitUsher
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January 21, 2016, 08:59:25 PM

Well some of us suspected Bitcoin Classic was a trojan horse meant to change governance and than switch to BIP101 and the numbers are indeed reflecting that --

Up at the highest rated approval we have BIP101

https://bitcoin.consider.it/BIP101

Democracy in action folks! Letting the mobs of idiots and people who want to destroy bitcoin vote for its future.... wonderful.
Is there a official poll?

yes , you can see it's the most requested change to Bitcoin Classic at the top.

https://bitcoin.consider.it/
tomothy
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January 21, 2016, 09:00:57 PM

https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/7388#issuecomment-173563835

wangchun commented 8 hours ago
ACK

RBF is steal. This PR should be merged asap to prevent potential financial loss.



So,

Wangchun says:

1) 2 MB HF
2) No RBF


And core responds with... 2017 maybe we'll do something? After segwit? That's funny, cause Wanghun says segwit should be HF and after 2mb hf.


Sitarow
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January 21, 2016, 09:02:22 PM

...
If you are referring to pool and network computation share of the pie than what you see are the results of pool participants that can easily direct their hardware at other locations if the need arises. That hash-power is migratory.  

The changing landscape of the infrastructure that supports bitcoin is constantly evolving and to think the old rules apply is short sighted understanding.

Lolno. The hashpower stays where electricity costs are low/government subsidized: China.


It is true that mining has been a community service for-profit business more than a self sustaining endeavor that would will "not" result in short or long turn profit with out further subsidies outside of the bitcoin rewards.

Fixed that.

Fixed that. Smiley


In all seriousness apart from the mining hardware race. Mining was a voluntary service given to use bitcoin much like any distributed computing projects that you can participate on using BOINC clients.
ChartBuddy
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1CBuddyxy4FerT3hzMmi1Jz48ESzRw1ZzZ


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January 21, 2016, 09:02:25 PM

Coin


Explanation
billyjoeallen
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January 21, 2016, 09:04:58 PM


Laws and contracts are useless if there is no third party with power to enforce them and settle disputes. 



That's not entirely true.  Two parties may resolve a dispute themselves. IF they believe that it is less costly than a physical confrontation.  Anarcho-capitalists also theorize that third party mediators will offer their services in dispute resolution based on commonly-accepted community norms. If Both parties can agree on a third party Dispute Resolution Organization, then they would also have to agree on mechanisms for enforcing the outcome.

War is expensive. Throughout history, you will find that it is mostly engaged in by parties that do not bear the full cost. We propose that any parties engaging in physical conflict bear the full cost of doing so, thereby discouraging the practice. 

Reputation also has an economic and social value. Credit scores are one example.  Other members of the community can enforce laws and contracts even if they are not a direct party by imposing opportunity costs on violators. An example: you defaulted on a loan, so most others will refuse to lend to you in the future, and if they do it will be at a much higher interest rate.  or another: You punch somebody in the nose and word gets out so you are no longer welcome at certain social events.

CuntChocula
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January 21, 2016, 09:05:53 PM

... I have lived in many and currently do live in a mostly anarcho-cap community. (The only reason it isn't completely an-cap is because we do have to pay a small tribute to for land to prevent the state from attacking us) .... but we built and maintain the roads , we built the electrical infrastructure, we built and maintain the water treatment and sewage treatment, we put out our own forest fires, we have our own private community watch program and local DRO for security, and we do not call the cops for assistance. These "public" services are all done without taxes and voluntarily without coercion. No this isn't Somalia either ...

So... Where & what is it? Or do I gotta "respect ur privacy" because jackbooted banksters are about?

Since no answer forthcoming, assuming "ancap community" -- you and couch-surfing buddy in mom's basement. How much mom charge in "taxes"?
P.S. Just wait til she finds out you guys set the woods on fire Shocked
inca
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January 21, 2016, 09:07:13 PM

Levitating just above 400.

Is this a bull market or not..

 Grin
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January 21, 2016, 09:09:09 PM


In all seriousness apart from the mining hardware race. Mining was a voluntary service given to use bitcoin much like any distributed computing projects that you can participate on using BOINC clients.

Where you get such wacky ideas I'll never know...
billyjoeallen
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January 21, 2016, 09:13:39 PM



I think you may be trolling Smiley however for those that may be reading your reply then please indulge further.

#1 The "hashpower" is migratory and can move in less time than it takes for you to wire funds to your

The physical bitcoin mines cannot be moved easily.  The ChiComs can nationalize them, merge the pools and double spend until we fork away from them. Then they can point at the new fork and do it again. Only forking away from SHA256 can stop them.  You can imagine the damage that will do.

Physical bitcoin mines tend to shutdown due to obsolete hardware when new technology goes online. Most recently the new ASIC chips 0.06J/GH vs the best bitmain has to offer that was recently sold at 0.25J/GH or the older hardware of 0.55J/GH.

What I was making reference to is that people who point hardware at the pools can point them to other pools rather simply. Many have backup pools pre-programmed for any downtime the primary target pool has.

That doesn't matter. If the Chicoms want to shut us down now, they can.  It is completely irrelevant how much their electricity costs because they won't be mining for profit. They will be using stolen gear to double spend and they only need to do that for a short while to destroy the market's faith in our currency. As long as they have enough asics in China to create a megapool, they can double spend and keep double spending until we fork away from SHA256 or until 51% hashpower goes online outside of China.
Sitarow
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January 21, 2016, 09:13:57 PM


In all seriousness apart from the mining hardware race. Mining was a voluntary service given to use bitcoin much like any distributed computing projects that you can participate on using BOINC clients.

Where you get such wacky ideas I'll never know...

Back when CPU's was the thing everyone and their dog would run nodes and self mine before pools.

Simply before the migration from solo mining to pools and CPU's to GPU's and GPU's to FPGA and later ASIC's.
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Self-Custody is a right. Say no to "non-custodial"


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January 21, 2016, 09:17:47 PM



Yeah, right, another superficial and poorly reasoned death pronouncement of bitcoin that selectively and poorly attempts to emphasize  negative bitcoin "facts" in order to argue it's non objective points.
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January 21, 2016, 09:20:02 PM

Deomocracy, in the sense of one person one vote for control over pooled resources, is inefficient because there is no way to communicate the intensity of one's preferences. That is one objection.

That is true, and it is one of the reasons why "democracy is the worst form of government there is".  But other methods of reching "consensus"  are not any better in that regard, often much worse; hence the other half of the saying.

While democracy does not directly account for intensity of desire, it has some indirect ways. For example, if the majority chooses laws that are too unfair to some minority, the latter may resort to crime to make ends meet, or to terrorism and other anti-social behavior, in spite of the penal deterrents against such acts.  Then the majority, if it is not too stupid, will usually ease the plight of that minority, enough to keep those reactions down to a tolerable level.

Democracy, like anything else, will function better if most of its citizens have more knowledge (especially of other societies, past and present) and more intelligence (especially the social intelligence I mentioned: awareness of the reactions that other people may have to one's own actions, and to the actions of the government.  The fair treatment of minorities, above, is an example of decision that a majority will take if it has a minimum of those qualities.  

That is one reason, by the way, why even the richest classes should want a good public universal education: because their welfare never depends only on their own qualities and actions, but always depends on the state of the society around them.  

Quote
for example, if you don't have the right to take by force from your neighbor because you need his property more than he does, then you don't have that right even if the majority of voters decide that you do.

As I said in another post, "right" is a meaningless word if there is no government to decide who has it.  Property is not a "natural right": you property is what your government thinks it is.  There is no other useful way to define it.  

You grow a crop on the land that is property of someone else: who owns the harvest?  You may have signed a contract giving 90% of the harvest to the landowner, but if the alternative was to sign the contract or die of hunger, is that any different than him taking your harvest by force?  You buy a stolen car without knowing that it was stolen; is it your property, or still the property of the victim? If you trace the history of a land plot back in time, you will almost always find that it was originally taken by force from the previous owner; so, is the present holder really the rightful owner?

In those and many other examples, there is no "natural" answer to the question.  In each case, if the property right is disputed, the laws of the country will give general rules that say who has the property rights; a court would have to decide how to apply those laws to the specific case; and a government will have to forcibly enforce the court's decision, if the affected party refuses to accept it.
CuntChocula
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January 21, 2016, 09:20:30 PM


In all seriousness apart from the mining hardware race. Mining was a voluntary service given to use bitcoin much like any distributed computing projects that you can participate on using BOINC clients.

Where you get such wacky ideas I'll never know...

Back when CPU's was the thing everyone and their dog would run nodes and self mine before pools.

Simply before the migration from solo mining to pools and CPU's to GPU's and GPU's to FPGA and later ASIC's.

Satoshi never meant mining to be "a public service," hence he incentivized it. Unlike SETI@home & folding@home.
Regardless of you or I having treated it as that in the past.

“A sum of money is a leading character in this tale about people,
 just as a sum of honey might properly be a leading character in a tale about bees.”
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January 21, 2016, 09:31:17 PM

Why are people arguing about governance while pretending Bitcoin is anarchy when Bitcoin is identical to the government we already have?  Each mining rig is a vote.  You're required to use your vote at a pool, which is the same thing as electing a representative like congress/senate.  It's a reputation based system and your vote essentially does not matter if all representatives are compromised or not operating with any game plan you want.

It's supposedly "permissionless", but unless you have millions to break through the high barrier of entry to solo mine, then it's not really.  Just like in real life, big money can simply buy their way in as representatives.  I'm not sure where everyone keeps getting these anarchy ideas from when there's almost no difference between Bitcoin and representative type republics.  Looks like convergent evolution strikes again.
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January 21, 2016, 09:31:28 PM


The retard journalist (https://twitter.com/AaronvanW/status/690120783281156097) has published his article: https://bitcoinmagazine.com/articles/f-pool-chinese-pools-will-stick-with-bitcoin-core-1453395328


Long story short: F2Pool and HaoBTC.

No real news then.

Quote
Speaking to Bitcoin Magazine, F2Pool operator Wang Chun confirmed this is indeed the case.
“The rumors are true,” Chun said. “Miners in China were scared by Luke Dashjr’s proof-of-work changing pull request.”

I mean, WTF???  I mean to say... WTF??

And Wang Chun is not aware of Gregs similar posturing? Of course he is.

Is everyone here a complete effing retard? This is a joke. Of course its a joke.
Normal responsible business people dont speak like that  OK, that was a stupid point.

You are all being done up like a kipper.
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January 21, 2016, 09:42:35 PM

Well some of us suspected Bitcoin Classic was a trojan horse meant to change governance and than switch to BIP101 and the numbers are indeed reflecting that --

Up at the highest rated approval we have BIP101

https://bitcoin.consider.it/BIP101

Democracy in action folks! Letting the mobs of idiots and people who want to destroy bitcoin vote for its future.... wonderful.
Is there a official poll?

yes , you can see it's the most requested change to Bitcoin Classic at the top.

https://bitcoin.consider.it/
Thank you! I did not know this website
tomothy
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January 21, 2016, 09:43:42 PM


The retard journalist (https://twitter.com/AaronvanW/status/690120783281156097) has published his article: https://bitcoinmagazine.com/articles/f-pool-chinese-pools-will-stick-with-bitcoin-core-1453395328


Long story short: F2Pool and HaoBTC.

No real news then.

Quote
Speaking to Bitcoin Magazine, F2Pool operator Wang Chun confirmed this is indeed the case.
“The rumors are true,” Chun said. “Miners in China were scared by Luke Dashjr’s proof-of-work changing pull request.”

I mean, WTF???  I mean to say... WTF??

And Wang Chun is not aware of Gregs similar posturing? Of course he is.

Is everyone here a complete effing retard? This is a joke. Of course its a joke.
Normal responsible business people dont speak like that  OK, that was a stupid point.

You are all being done up like a kipper.

I understand your position but respectfully disagree. Wangchun commented regarding RBF and his English was very good but not perfect. I wouldn't be surprised if his speaking ability is similar.

https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/7388#issuecomment-173563835

wangchun commented 8 hours ago - "ACK   RBF is steal. This PR should be merged asap to prevent potential financial loss."


Edit. Bolded for emphasis. Bolding was my decision, not found in pull request. Can I just say that Peter Todd is a poopyhead ever since viacoin. I hate him. I lost so much due to that crappy coin. I swear, him and his free-crypto crap is just stupid and fails the economic rationality test. Sorry, getting rid of lukejr and peter todd, imho, would result in a more balanced dev atmosphere. Just my $.02. I get angry when I see his responses, the crap he has done, and it doesn't surprise me that he left RC3 or whatever the proper acronym is.
BlindMayorBitcorn
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January 21, 2016, 09:46:47 PM


sipa  commented 9 hours ago 
Quote
I'm willing to consider this due to the unexpected controversy this is causing. I do however think this due to a misunderstanding:
•It's perfectly possible to keep accepting 0-conf transactions, if you believe they are safe for your use case. Opt-in RBF sets a non-maximum nSequence value, which causes many providers to already consider the transaction non-standard for the purpose of accepting 0-conf.
•As a customer, you can choose to set opt-in RBF, and thus lose the ability to get your payment accepted before confirmation, but with the ability to easily change the fee afterwards or combine the transaction with others.
•As a miner, the rational behaviour is to take the transaction with the highest fee (even for non opt-in cases). If you don't, another miner can.

And, no, opt-in RBF is not theft. It's indicating that you're not sure whether what you're submitting is the final form of the transaction. This is the exact semantics that nSequence had since the earliest version of Bitcoin.
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