Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion

[BlindMayorBitcorn]

Yes, of course, you're totally bang on with your assessment. If there were a serious attack like this I suspect there might be a fork, maybe...

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If you want to perform such an attack regardless of cost, and with unlimited budget, I believe it has already been proven that the Byzantine general's problem is unsolvable, (lacking sufficient incentives)

It's likely that the incentive structure is the only thing that truly protects the blockchain.

A fork, sure, but a fork to what? Short of changing the hashing algorithm, I don't see what's going to prevent a destructive miner from shitting all over the new fork, too.

So: double-spends for direct economic gain don't seem likely to be a huge problem. Miners disrupting the network for political reasons (or ransom, for that matter) seems like it could be an issue, but it's hard to estimate how likely such an attack would be.

I've thought about this, actually. Not as a malicious attack, but in the (far more likely) event of getting stuck on the wrong end of a hard fork. And yeah, it's a problem.

Best case you're waiting many hours, perhaps days per block, until a difficulty change. (This is it's probably unacceptable to the mainstream, but to the participants of MPEX and bitcoin-assets --well--  I wouldn't be surprised if they were willing to accept several weeks or months of extremely slow blocks until a difficulty change. I'm not an insider, but that's the feeling that I get when reading the logs.

But that's just the best case scenario, in the worst case you'd be suffering attacks from the overwhelming majority of hash power (I think mitigation for this would be hard-coded nodes, attaching only to other nodes within the web of trust.) They could potentially operate a viable network with at minimum the 6 or 7 nodes they already run.

Both scenarios are not desirable. I think the algorithm change is probably the most likely outcome. It provides protection from asic attack,  and, let's be honest , there is a strong incentive to bring back cpu or at least gpu-friendly mining.

In any case, I think a fork is risky, more risky than most people realize, and I think that Mircea Popescu and his followers are a formidable and compelling group and should not be discounted.

Interesting times ahead.

A handful of loons. I discount then. Why wouldn't you?

[1715073322]

1715073322

[becoin]

look at those full blocks! but it's ok, we'll have some more room sometime in the middle of next year.

I've never had any delays or other issues sending bitcoins. What is your problem with full blocks?

The same problem I have flying coach. No elbow room.

If you want elbow room fly business class and pay higher fees. Simple! Isn't it?

[billyjoeallen]

look at those full blocks! but it's ok, we'll have some more room sometime in the middle of next year.

I've never had any delays or other issues sending bitcoins. What is your problem with full blocks?

Paying the suggested fee of 5000 satoshi per KB everything gets confirmed pretty soon. Haven't had any delays in a long time: miners need to be paid.

Miners get paid 25 BTC per block. if half a million people want to send some coin on the same day, they can't all do it, no matter how high the fees are.  Higher fees kill marginal transactions. marginal transactions are where the growth comes from, and it's where death comes from.

[hdbuck]

Yes, of course, you're totally bang on with your assessment. If there were a serious attack like this I suspect there might be a fork, maybe...

-----

If you want to perform such an attack regardless of cost, and with unlimited budget, I believe it has already been proven that the Byzantine general's problem is unsolvable, (lacking sufficient incentives)

It's likely that the incentive structure is the only thing that truly protects the blockchain.

A fork, sure, but a fork to what? Short of changing the hashing algorithm, I don't see what's going to prevent a destructive miner from shitting all over the new fork, too.

So: double-spends for direct economic gain don't seem likely to be a huge problem. Miners disrupting the network for political reasons (or ransom, for that matter) seems like it could be an issue, but it's hard to estimate how likely such an attack would be.

I've thought about this, actually. Not as a malicious attack, but in the (far more likely) event of getting stuck on the wrong end of a hard fork. And yeah, it's a problem.

Best case you're waiting many hours, perhaps days per block, until a difficulty change. (This is it's probably unacceptable to the mainstream, but to the participants of MPEX and bitcoin-assets --well--  I wouldn't be surprised if they were willing to accept several weeks or months of extremely slow blocks until a difficulty change. I'm not an insider, but that's the feeling that I get when reading the logs.

But that's just the best case scenario, in the worst case you'd be suffering attacks from the overwhelming majority of hash power (I think mitigation for this would be hard-coded nodes, attaching only to other nodes within the web of trust.) They could potentially operate a viable network with at minimum the 6 or 7 nodes they already run.

Both scenarios are not desirable. I think the algorithm change is probably the most likely outcome. It provides protection from asic attack,  and, let's be honest , there is a strong incentive to bring back cpu or at least gpu-friendly mining.

In any case, I think a fork is risky, more risky than most people realize, and I think that Mircea Popescu and his followers are a formidable and compelling group and should not be discounted.

Interesting times ahead.

A handful of loons. I discount then. Why wouldn't you?

MP is just way more relevant to bitcoin and its ecosystem that you and your classic wannabes will ever be.

And it is certain the reference bitcoin implementation they produced will not comprise any hard fork material besides the keccak algochange should the roundtable of powerrangers and their miners besties take a step further into highjacking bitcoin for their own interest.

[billyjoeallen]

look at those full blocks! but it's ok, we'll have some more room sometime in the middle of next year.

I've never had any delays or other issues sending bitcoins. What is your problem with full blocks?

The same problem I have flying coach. No elbow room.

If you want elbow room fly business class and pay higher fees. Simple! Isn't it?

That's why I don't fly at all. Are you starting to get it? This "let them eat cake" thing is really cute. Worked out great for Marie Antoinette.

[Karartma1]

look at those full blocks! but it's ok, we'll have some more room sometime in the middle of next year.

I've never had any delays or other issues sending bitcoins. What is your problem with full blocks?

Paying the suggested fee of 5000 satoshi per KB everything gets confirmed pretty soon. Haven't had any delays in a long time: miners need to be paid.

Miners get paid 25 BTC per block. if hald a million people want to send some coin on the same day, they can't all do it, no matter how high the fees are.  Higher fees kill marginal transactions. marginal transactions are where the growth comes from.

I think you know that btc was never designed for those high numbers: this is it right now if I am to use btc I need to pay that fee.
If we grow in numbers then I really don't know what's gonna happen.
This was never designed as a world currency

[ChartBuddy]

Coin



Explanation

[molecular]

look at those full blocks! but it's ok, we'll have some more room sometime in the middle of next year.

I've never had any delays or other issues sending bitcoins. What is your problem with full blocks?

Paying the suggested fee of 5000 satoshi per KB everything gets confirmed pretty soon. Haven't had any delays in a long time: miners need to be paid.

Miners get paid 25 BTC per block. if half a million people want to send some coin on the same day, they can't all do it, no matter how high the fees are.  Higher fees kill marginal transactions. marginal transactions are where the growth comes from, and it's where death comes from.

Death lurks at the margins of a constricted blockchain.

[Laosai]

look at those full blocks! but it's ok, we'll have some more room sometime in the middle of next year.

I've never had any delays or other issues sending bitcoins. What is your problem with full blocks?

Paying the suggested fee of 5000 satoshi per KB everything gets confirmed pretty soon. Haven't had any delays in a long time: miners need to be paid.

Miners get paid 25 BTC per block. if half a million people want to send some coin on the same day, they can't all do it, no matter how high the fees are.  Higher fees kill marginal transactions. marginal transactions are where the growth comes from, and it's where death comes from.

Yeah but no one really need to be confirmed in the hour no?
Me I don't care when I make a transaction it can be let for a few hours it's not important.

[billyjoeallen]

look at those full blocks! but it's ok, we'll have some more room sometime in the middle of next year.

I've never had any delays or other issues sending bitcoins. What is your problem with full blocks?

Paying the suggested fee of 5000 satoshi per KB everything gets confirmed pretty soon. Haven't had any delays in a long time: miners need to be paid.

Miners get paid 25 BTC per block. if hald a million people want to send some coin on the same day, they can't all do it, no matter how high the fees are.  Higher fees kill marginal transactions. marginal transactions are where the growth comes from.

I think you know that btc was never designed for those high numbers: this is it right now if I am to use btc I need to pay that fee.
If we grow in numbers then I really don't know what's gonna happen.
This was never designed as a world currency

We don't even have the capacity to be the currency for a single medium-sized city.  If BTC price doubles faster than blockrewardss halves, we would never need to worry about miner compensation. No fees would ever be necessary, but that won't happen unless capacity also doubles faster.

[rebuilder]

shmadz: I'm not sure an algo change would improve the situation any. Everyone would have to rebuild their mining setups. Some honest miners would probably just quit, while a determined attacker might just find holding onto a majority of hashpower just got cheaper for them.

[becoin]

look at those full blocks! but it's ok, we'll have some more room sometime in the middle of next year.

I've never had any delays or other issues sending bitcoins. What is your problem with full blocks?

The same problem I have flying coach. No elbow room.

If you want elbow room fly business class and pay higher fees. Simple! Isn't it?

That's why I don't fly at all. Are you starting to get it?

It is your problem and nobody else's. The business of airports, airlines and airplane manufacturers is booming! Are you starting to get it?

[billyjoeallen]

look at those full blocks! but it's ok, we'll have some more room sometime in the middle of next year.

I've never had any delays or other issues sending bitcoins. What is your problem with full blocks?

The same problem I have flying coach. No elbow room.

If you want elbow room fly business class and pay higher fees. Simple! Isn't it?

That's why I don't fly at all. Are you starting to get it?

It is your problem and nobody else's. The business of airports, airlines and airplane manufacturers is booming! Are you starting to get it?

You really think so? Have you taken a look at the Boeing stock chart lately?

[redsn0w]

[mr angry]

look at those full blocks! but it's ok, we'll have some more room sometime in the middle of next year.

I've never had any delays or other issues sending bitcoins. What is your problem with full blocks?

Paying the suggested fee of 5000 satoshi per KB everything gets confirmed pretty soon. Haven't had any delays in a long time: miners need to be paid.

Miners get paid 25 BTC per block. if hald a million people want to send some coin on the same day, they can't all do it, no matter how high the fees are.  Higher fees kill marginal transactions. marginal transactions are where the growth comes from.

I think you know that btc was never designed for those high numbers: this is it right now if I am to use btc I need to pay that fee.
If we grow in numbers then I really don't know what's gonna happen.
This was never designed as a world currency

It might not have been designed as a world currency but Satoshi intended it to become one. He said in twenty years either everyone will be using Bitcoin, or nobody will be using it. It's code will evolve to scale up to world currency robustness given time.

[becoin]

look at those full blocks! but it's ok, we'll have some more room sometime in the middle of next year.

I've never had any delays or other issues sending bitcoins. What is your problem with full blocks?

The same problem I have flying coach. No elbow room.

If you want elbow room fly business class and pay higher fees. Simple! Isn't it?

That's why I don't fly at all. Are you starting to get it?

It is your problem and nobody else's. The business of airports, airlines and airplane manufacturers is booming! Are you starting to get it?

You really think so? Have you taken a look at the Boeing stock chart lately?

I don't care about charts, paintings or other forms of graphic art, buddy. This business is for fine art galleries. What I do care about is company's long term order book!

[dani]

Coin



Explanation

You will never let me down, chart buddy. Thanks for posting!

[mainpmf]

Coin



Explanation

Daaaaaaaaaaaaaaaamn! It only goes up that's too cooooool!

[ChartBuddy]

Coin



Explanation

[Fatman3001]

MP is just way more relevant to bitcoin and its ecosystem that you and your classic wannabes will ever be.

And it is certain the reference bitcoin implementation they produced will not comprise any hard fork material besides the keccak algochange should the roundtable of powerrangers and their miners besties take a step further into highjacking bitcoin for their own interest.

What brand of stupid are these people?

"Some crypto enthusiasts have gotten the notion that they'll decruft the Satoshi codebase. This is where they polish the turd."

It reads as if they themselves are "decrufting" the Satoshi codebase. And that they themselves think it's shit.

I thought this site was a bad joke at first. It sort of still is, but a different flavour.