Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion

[bargainbin]

^^I'm sure you're right, I'm not talking about the price.

[8up]

...
OMG - you envision a fee market (long before it's neccessary), but you can not see the commoditization of mining equipment hence re-decentralization of mining!?

I don't understand what you mean. Explain?

If I remember right, there is even a paper written on this topic. But for the start, this should work: https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/2o71hh/physics_and_economics_will_distributed_mining_im/

[bargainbin]

^that govy shill never stops spewing his shit all over the place uh?

debunking all the conspiracies and pushing for bitcoin fork along with the beanies babies..

how about you pay a visit to MMM forums and take a break from here, you seems quite nervous lately < snip>

Didn't hear you, what?

[ChartBuddy]

Coin



Explanation

[bargainbin]

...
OMG - you envision a fee market (long before it's neccessary), but you can not see the commoditization of mining equipment hence re-decentralization of mining!?

I don't understand what you mean. Explain?

If I remember right, there is even a paper written on this topic. But for the start, this should work: https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/2o71hh/physics_and_economics_will_distributed_mining_im/

"As someone who comes from a physics and engineering background, over the long run I'm not concerned with mining centralization. Physics will ensure it is distributed."
"As a result, the mining centralization we see in Greenland and large data centers becomes enormously unprofitable. Any centralization of mining would REQUIRE heat recycling, which severely limits data centers and necessitates distribution unless you introduce heat pumps, which also increase cost."
--submitted 1 year ago
How's that decentralization goin' thus far?

The guy doesn't understand that mining is centralized in China, not Greenland.
He doesn't understand that it's economically idiotic to heat your hot water with miners, because miners need *cold water* going into the waterblocks -- recirculating hot water for cooling ain't cooling, it ain't gonna do much. If hot water was used at a constant rate, 24/7, he might have a better point, but it don't work like that.
Regardless, *mining is concentrated around cheap electricity,* not where it's cold (Greenland).
The fact that silicon might hit quantum dead end "round the year 2024" ain't doing diddly for us now.

TL;DR: don't buy his "physics and engineering background," he doesn't think things through.
P.S. If you wanna talk about particulars of utilizing waste heat, I'll be glad to.

P.P.S. LOL, HE'S the bro behind "That is why we are building a bitcoin miner that fits inside a water heater."
I remember when IceDrill was selling us stories about their farm providing heat for apartment complexes

[billyjoeallen]

...
OMG - you envision a fee market (long before it's neccessary), but you can not see the commoditization of mining equipment hence re-decentralization of mining!?

I don't understand what you mean. Explain?

If I remember right, there is even a paper written on this topic. But for the start, this should work: https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/2o71hh/physics_and_economics_will_distributed_mining_im/

Mining concentration isn't solely a product of unequal access to hardware and economies of scale. China's electricity and labor cost advantages contribute, as well as f*cked up code that actually gives them a competitive advantage for crappy bandwidth (selfish mining). The alliance between miners and Core ensures this will likely continue unless and until Classic or something like it gets node supermajority. That's a low probability outcome and a dangerous bet, IMHO.

[brg444]

as well as f*cked up code that actually gives them a competitive advantage for crappy bandwidth (selfish mining).

Explain

[bargainbin]

Waiting ...

...
If I remember right, there is even a paper written on this topic. But for the start, this should work: https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/2o71hh/physics_and_economics_will_distributed_mining_im/

...
P.S. If you wanna talk about particulars of utilizing waste heat, I'll be glad to.

P.P.S. LOL, HE'S the bro behind "That is why we are building a bitcoin miner that fits inside a water heater."
I remember when IceDrill was selling us stories about their farm providing heat for apartment complexes

[8up]

...
OMG - you envision a fee market (long before it's neccessary), but you can not see the commoditization of mining equipment hence re-decentralization of mining!?

I don't understand what you mean. Explain?

If I remember right, there is even a paper written on this topic. But for the start, this should work: https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/2o71hh/physics_and_economics_will_distributed_mining_im/

"As someone who comes from a physics and engineering background, over the long run I'm not concerned with mining centralization. Physics will ensure it is distributed."
"As a result, the mining centralization we see in Greenland and large data centers becomes enormously unprofitable. Any centralization of mining would REQUIRE heat recycling, which severely limits data centers and necessitates distribution unless you introduce heat pumps, which also increase cost."
--submitted 1 year ago
How's that decentralization goin' thus far?

The guy doesn't understand that mining is centralized in China, not Greenland.
He doesn't understand that it's economically idiotic to heat your hot water with miners, because miners need *cold water* going into the waterblocks -- recirculating hot water for cooling ain't cooling, it ain't gonna do much. If hot water was used at a constant rate, 24/7, he might have a better point, but it don't work like that.
Regardless, *mining is concentrated around cheap electricity,* not where it's cold (Greenland).
The fact that silicon might hit quantum dead end "round the year 2024" ain't doing diddly for us now.

TL;DR: don't buy his "physics and engineering background," he doesn't think things through.
P.S. If you wanna talk about particulars of utilizing waste heat, I'll be glad to.

P.P.S. LOL, HE'S the bro behind "That is why we are building a bitcoin miner that fits inside a water heater."
I remember when IceDrill was selling us stories about their farm providing heat for apartment complexes

Well, the heaters are just one thought. But I think there is more to the thought of commoditization (e.g. longer and longer development circles for ASICs). BTW: I don't see mining centralization as a big problem. There is always competition by other crypto-currencies to balancethings in Bitcoin.

Let's get to the heat waste discussion: Maybe it would be possible to gain back some energy by using Stirling engines. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stirling_engine


PSA: outbreak is imminent...

[bargainbin]

...
OMG - you envision a fee market (long before it's neccessary), but you can not see the commoditization of mining equipment hence re-decentralization of mining!?

I don't understand what you mean. Explain?

If I remember right, there is even a paper written on this topic. But for the start, this should work: https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/2o71hh/physics_and_economics_will_distributed_mining_im/

"As someone who comes from a physics and engineering background, over the long run I'm not concerned with mining centralization. Physics will ensure it is distributed."
"As a result, the mining centralization we see in Greenland and large data centers becomes enormously unprofitable. Any centralization of mining would REQUIRE heat recycling, which severely limits data centers and necessitates distribution unless you introduce heat pumps, which also increase cost."
--submitted 1 year ago
How's that decentralization goin' thus far?

The guy doesn't understand that mining is centralized in China, not Greenland.
He doesn't understand that it's economically idiotic to heat your hot water with miners, because miners need *cold water* going into the waterblocks -- recirculating hot water for cooling ain't cooling, it ain't gonna do much. If hot water was used at a constant rate, 24/7, he might have a better point, but it don't work like that.
Regardless, *mining is concentrated around cheap electricity,* not where it's cold (Greenland).
The fact that silicon might hit quantum dead end "round the year 2024" ain't doing diddly for us now.

TL;DR: don't buy his "physics and engineering background," he doesn't think things through.
P.S. If you wanna talk about particulars of utilizing waste heat, I'll be glad to.

P.P.S. LOL, HE'S the bro behind "That is why we are building a bitcoin miner that fits inside a water heater."
I remember when IceDrill was selling us stories about their farm providing heat for apartment complexes

Well, the heaters are just one thought. But I think there is more to the thought of commoditization (e.g. longer and longer development circles for ASICs). BTW: I don't see mining centralization as a big problem. There is always competition by other crypto-currencies to balancethings in Bitcoin.

Let's get to the heat waste discussion: Maybe it would be possible to gain back some energy by using Stirling engines. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stirling_engine

>I don't see mining centralization as a big problem.
In that case, the point's moot. I don't see it as a catastrophic problem, but it's a serious one. One that effectively nulls any pretensions to Bitcoin being "decentralized."

>heaters are just one thought
It's an awful thought. It's fail.

>Stirling engines
Not sure if srs. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat_engine#Efficiency <==and that's just what's theoretically possible.
Have you also considered this?

Put it this way: Let's say Chinese coal-fired Electricity is 2 pennies per kWh, and yours is 4 pennies. Your Stirling engine manages to convert 3% of wasted heat back into electricity. Yeah.
Bonus: if Stirling heat reclamation made sense, Chinese megaminers would use it too. They'd make the thing, too -- you'll buy it from them

Seriously tho, read the laws of thermodynamics, it's straightforward stuff.

[ChartBuddy]

Coin



Explanation

[Chef Ramsay]

Is China going to drive another big BTC jump? Some think it is.

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-02-26/why-hedge-fund-manager-who-made-killing-subprime-buying-bitcoin

So what is one trade that can be put on to bet on further Chinese devaluation (or outright economic collapse) with limited downside, with unlimited upside, and one which is guaranteed to be profitable if and when the local Chinese depositor herd gets out of Yuan en masse after the next 10%, 20%, 50% or more devaluation and rushes into bitcoin? Simple: do precisely what we said in September, and precisely what Corriente's Mark Hart is saying now: buy bitcoin, because once the Chinese buying frenzy is unleashed, and $25 trillion in deposits scramble to be packed into a product with a $6.5 billion current market cap (but only when the price of a bitcoin is $430; the market cap does rise to $25 trillion if every bitcoin is worth $1.6 million) one thing will happen: the price of bitcoin will soar exponentially.

Holler if ya hear me!

[8up]

...
OMG - you envision a fee market (long before it's neccessary), but you can not see the commoditization of mining equipment hence re-decentralization of mining!?

I don't understand what you mean. Explain?

If I remember right, there is even a paper written on this topic. But for the start, this should work: https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/2o71hh/physics_and_economics_will_distributed_mining_im/

"As someone who comes from a physics and engineering background, over the long run I'm not concerned with mining centralization. Physics will ensure it is distributed."
"As a result, the mining centralization we see in Greenland and large data centers becomes enormously unprofitable. Any centralization of mining would REQUIRE heat recycling, which severely limits data centers and necessitates distribution unless you introduce heat pumps, which also increase cost."
--submitted 1 year ago
How's that decentralization goin' thus far?

The guy doesn't understand that mining is centralized in China, not Greenland.
He doesn't understand that it's economically idiotic to heat your hot water with miners, because miners need *cold water* going into the waterblocks -- recirculating hot water for cooling ain't cooling, it ain't gonna do much. If hot water was used at a constant rate, 24/7, he might have a better point, but it don't work like that.
Regardless, *mining is concentrated around cheap electricity,* not where it's cold (Greenland).
The fact that silicon might hit quantum dead end "round the year 2024" ain't doing diddly for us now.

TL;DR: don't buy his "physics and engineering background," he doesn't think things through.
P.S. If you wanna talk about particulars of utilizing waste heat, I'll be glad to.

P.P.S. LOL, HE'S the bro behind "That is why we are building a bitcoin miner that fits inside a water heater."
I remember when IceDrill was selling us stories about their farm providing heat for apartment complexes

Well, the heaters are just one thought. But I think there is more to the thought of commoditization (e.g. longer and longer development circles for ASICs). BTW: I don't see mining centralization as a big problem. There is always competition by other crypto-currencies to balancethings in Bitcoin.

Let's get to the heat waste discussion: Maybe it would be possible to gain back some energy by using Stirling engines. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stirling_engine

>I don't see mining centralization as a big problem.
In that case, the point's moot. I don't see it as a catastrophic problem, but it's a serious one. One that effectively nulls any pretensions to Bitcoin being "decentralized."

>heaters are just one thought
It's an awful thought. It's fail.

>Stirling engines
Not sure if srs. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat_engine#Efficiency <==and that's just what's theoretically possible.
Have you also considered this?

Put it this way: Let's say Chinese coal-fired Electricity is 2 pennies per kWh, and yours is 4 pennies. Your Stirling engine manages to convert 3% of wasted heat back into electricity. Yeah.
Bonus: if Stirling heat reclamation made sense, Chinese megaminers would use it too. They'd make the thing, too -- you'll buy it from them

Seriously tho, read the laws of thermodynamics, it's straightforward stuff.

I can see, why it makes no sense for the chinese miners today. However, I expect margins to become zero/negative in the forseeable* future.

What do you think will happen longterm (*10 to 20 years)?

[noobtrader]

...
OMG - you envision a fee market (long before it's neccessary), but you can not see the commoditization of mining equipment hence re-decentralization of mining!?

I don't understand what you mean. Explain?

If I remember right, there is even a paper written on this topic. But for the start, this should work: https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/2o71hh/physics_and_economics_will_distributed_mining_im/

"As someone who comes from a physics and engineering background, over the long run I'm not concerned with mining centralization. Physics will ensure it is distributed."
"As a result, the mining centralization we see in Greenland and large data centers becomes enormously unprofitable. Any centralization of mining would REQUIRE heat recycling, which severely limits data centers and necessitates distribution unless you introduce heat pumps, which also increase cost."
--submitted 1 year ago
How's that decentralization goin' thus far?

The guy doesn't understand that mining is centralized in China, not Greenland.
He doesn't understand that it's economically idiotic to heat your hot water with miners, because miners need *cold water* going into the waterblocks -- recirculating hot water for cooling ain't cooling, it ain't gonna do much. If hot water was used at a constant rate, 24/7, he might have a better point, but it don't work like that.
Regardless, *mining is concentrated around cheap electricity,* not where it's cold (Greenland).
The fact that silicon might hit quantum dead end "round the year 2024" ain't doing diddly for us now.

TL;DR: don't buy his "physics and engineering background," he doesn't think things through.
P.S. If you wanna talk about particulars of utilizing waste heat, I'll be glad to.

P.P.S. LOL, HE'S the bro behind "That is why we are building a bitcoin miner that fits inside a water heater."
I remember when IceDrill was selling us stories about their farm providing heat for apartment complexes

Well, the heaters are just one thought. But I think there is more to the thought of commoditization (e.g. longer and longer development circles for ASICs). BTW: I don't see mining centralization as a big problem. There is always competition by other crypto-currencies to balancethings in Bitcoin.

Let's get to the heat waste discussion: Maybe it would be possible to gain back some energy by using Stirling engines. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stirling_engine

>I don't see mining centralization as a big problem.
In that case, the point's moot. I don't see it as a catastrophic problem, but it's a serious one. One that effectively nulls any pretensions to Bitcoin being "decentralized."

>heaters are just one thought
It's an awful thought. It's fail.

>Stirling engines
Not sure if srs. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat_engine#Efficiency <==and that's just what's theoretically possible.
Have you also considered this?

Put it this way: Let's say Chinese coal-fired Electricity is 2 pennies per kWh, and yours is 4 pennies. Your Stirling engine manages to convert 3% of wasted heat back into electricity. Yeah.
Bonus: if Stirling heat reclamation made sense, Chinese megaminers would use it too. They'd make the thing, too -- you'll buy it from them

Seriously tho, read the laws of thermodynamics, it's straightforward stuff.

I can see, why it makes no sense for the chinese miners today. However, I expect margins to become zero/negative in the forseeable* future.

What do you think will happen longterm (*10 to 20 years)?

even if some engine can convert heat into electricity maybe by peltier, i dont think its economically feasible to do .

[S3052]

I must say while the discussion above is very interesting, it would also be good to see more discussion on bitcoin price movement. Because this is the original purpose of this thread..

[AlexGR]

...
OMG - you envision a fee market (long before it's neccessary), but you can not see the commoditization of mining equipment hence re-decentralization of mining!?

I don't understand what you mean. Explain?

If I remember right, there is even a paper written on this topic. But for the start, this should work: https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/2o71hh/physics_and_economics_will_distributed_mining_im/

"As someone who comes from a physics and engineering background, over the long run I'm not concerned with mining centralization. Physics will ensure it is distributed."
"As a result, the mining centralization we see in Greenland and large data centers becomes enormously unprofitable. Any centralization of mining would REQUIRE heat recycling, which severely limits data centers and necessitates distribution unless you introduce heat pumps, which also increase cost."
--submitted 1 year ago
How's that decentralization goin' thus far?

The guy doesn't understand that mining is centralized in China, not Greenland.
He doesn't understand that it's economically idiotic to heat your hot water with miners, because miners need *cold water* going into the waterblocks -- recirculating hot water for cooling ain't cooling, it ain't gonna do much. If hot water was used at a constant rate, 24/7, he might have a better point, but it don't work like that.
Regardless, *mining is concentrated around cheap electricity,* not where it's cold (Greenland).
The fact that silicon might hit quantum dead end "round the year 2024" ain't doing diddly for us now.

TL;DR: don't buy his "physics and engineering background," he doesn't think things through.
P.S. If you wanna talk about particulars of utilizing waste heat, I'll be glad to.

P.P.S. LOL, HE'S the bro behind "That is why we are building a bitcoin miner that fits inside a water heater."
I remember when IceDrill was selling us stories about their farm providing heat for apartment complexes

Well, the heaters are just one thought. But I think there is more to the thought of commoditization (e.g. longer and longer development circles for ASICs). BTW: I don't see mining centralization as a big problem. There is always competition by other crypto-currencies to balancethings in Bitcoin.

Let's get to the heat waste discussion: Maybe it would be possible to gain back some energy by using Stirling engines. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stirling_engine

>I don't see mining centralization as a big problem.
In that case, the point's moot. I don't see it as a catastrophic problem, but it's a serious one. One that effectively nulls any pretensions to Bitcoin being "decentralized."

>heaters are just one thought
It's an awful thought. It's fail.

>Stirling engines
Not sure if srs. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat_engine#Efficiency <==and that's just what's theoretically possible.
Have you also considered this?

Put it this way: Let's say Chinese coal-fired Electricity is 2 pennies per kWh, and yours is 4 pennies. Your Stirling engine manages to convert 3% of wasted heat back into electricity. Yeah.
Bonus: if Stirling heat reclamation made sense, Chinese megaminers would use it too. They'd make the thing, too -- you'll buy it from them

Seriously tho, read the laws of thermodynamics, it's straightforward stuff.

I can see, why it makes no sense for the chinese miners today. However, I expect margins to become zero/negative in the forseeable* future.

What do you think will happen longterm (*10 to 20 years)?

even if some engine can convert heat into electricity maybe by peltier, i dont think its economically feasible to do .

Nitinol springs that operate with heat difference, would probably be veeeery economically feasible.

[ChartBuddy]

Coin



Explanation

[bargainbin]

...
What do you think will happen longterm (*10 to 20 years)?

10-20 years is far away. China might get stricter environmental/Bitcoin mining regulations.


... and Bitcoin mining will become centralized somewhere else. Maybe next to some incredibly cheap wildass Libertarian nuclear reactor, spewing neutrons all over Somalia, with only worries being radiation effects on silicon

Just like everything else, Bitcoin mining started out with privateers/wildcatters/nutjobs/visionaries, & ended up as an industry: doing stuff to make money.
The problem, for me, is money != BTC for miners; they can *sell* BTC, which means they're not committed to BTC as much as the hodlers are.
If, for instance, another SHA256 coin came around that was more profitable to mine, or, if some government paid them to mess with Bitcoin (mind you, paid them in !BTC, so reward doesn't become worthless when BTC tanks), they'll *definitely* do that. Or exert leverage on hodlers (extort) to not do it.

[Chef Ramsay]

LTC

[8up]

LTC

BTC